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Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
Personally I know very, very little about Border Princes, anyone suggest a place to go to read up on them and learn more?

Starting point: https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Border_Princes

There are a few novels set in them and bits and pieces in Army books/ Tamukhan etc

Also oddly, the Border Princes turn up a few times in Vampire lore - the 7th Ed AB has lore on a Strigoi vampire who’s a Border Prince and WFRP Night’s Dark Masters features a Lahmian coven who run one as well.

Yeah both are noted in the Lex article

Wolf Riders, the second Gotrek short story, is set in the Border Princes.

The summary is "It's the wild west, but south instead"

Every Warhammer campaign I ever ran was set there, precisely because it's a blank slate - and gets wiped blank again at frequent intervals by Orcs.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Darnok wrote:
Nobody commenting on pure Knight lists or that the Bretonnian Bombard is back?

This one?



Although its described as a Border Princes Bombard in the new piece

OK that is awesome!

Was always the beauty of the Old World, there were lovely not very well charted open spaces where just about anything could, and occasionally did happen even if no one survived to act as a witness

leopard wrote:
Was always the beauty of the Old World, there were lovely not very well charted open spaces where just about anything could, and occasionally did happen even if no one survived to act as a witness

But... But I was assured by AOS players on THIS VERY SITE that nothing new could be explored in the Old World. How can this be?!?!?!?! /s

There were some interesting units in 3rd ed, I like to think of them as older period in the actual world as well

 Mr Morden wrote:
There were some interesting units in 3rd ed, I like to think of them as older period in the actual world as well

Spoiler:

Arbalastiers

Foot Knights

Villains

What were villains?

I do hope we get more from tilea and estalia, if only because pikes go poke.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
There were some interesting units in 3rd ed, I like to think of them as older period in the actual world as well

Spoiler:

Arbalastiers

Foot Knights

Villains

What were villains?

Levied troops (-1 WS/BS from the basic human). Villeins (feudal tenants) would be more accurate.
All of those were basically precursor unit names. (Crossbowmen, Reiksguard, Bret Men-at-Arms) respectively. 3rd edition Brets had a more diverse army list that was closer to the Empire list as well.

Voss wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I'm surprised that nobody has picked up on the possible implication that the inclusion of a unit called a "Border Princes Bombard" possibly indicates the inclusion of an army list for the Border Princes themselves (or at least a selection of "Border Princes" units that can be included within other armies).

Maybe some Tilean or Estalian nobles, but that's out of scope for TOW.

No its not.

I mean, for one thing GW has said nothing about Tilea and Estalia being specifically excluded from the game (unlike Ogres, Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Skaven, etc.).

But also if you look at the actual map of the Border Princes for The Old World you might notice a few things: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/10/07/discover-warhammer-the-old-worlds-ultimate-getaway-for-exiled-lords-and-rotten-princes/

The purple shield at the most southwestern end is "Donalba", which between the name (which is actually a spanish surname as well as a spanish business) and the sun heraldry is almost certainly Estalian (though there are also arguments for it being Tilean). Tordorno is an Italian/Tilean name, though it has Bretonnian-esque heraldry. Aquilena could be either an Estalian, Tilean, or Bretonnian name, though the serpent heraldry points to it being Tilean. Ortegeta is another weird one as the name is very close to an obvious Spanish/Estalian name though the "eta" is a bit of an Italian/Tilean spin on it, and the heraldry is very Sylvanian (in that it quite literally uses real world Transylvanian/Szekely symbols).

Theres also, if you notice, Uvetovsk, which is Kislevite. And while I'm at it... whats that one that says "Harkon" in the northeastern corner? We know its not VC, but I'm sure theres going to be something necromantic or undead involved.

Yeah, I don't care about the old maps they published two years ago before the scope of the game changed. I care about the factions they've said the game will support.

There also aren't any kits they can pull out of the metaphorical closet and put back into production

Voss wrote:
Yeah, I don't care about the old maps they published two years ago before the scope of the game changed. I care about the factions they've said the game will support.

There also aren't any kits they can pull out of the metaphorical closet and put back into production

A couple years ago GW let Revell run off models from Black Reach and sell them. I'd say they haven't scrapped any molds unless absolutely necessary, which means they could bring back ANYTHING they want.


And I'd sacrifice an organ if they'd want to run off fresh copies of the Talisman Dragon. Or the Swarms and Minotaurs from Warhammer Quest...

Voss wrote:
Yeah, I don't care about the old maps they published two years ago before the scope of the game changed. I care about the factions they've said the game will support.

GW has a 2 year lead time on development, so no. Stuff that came out 2 years ago is not changing the scope. It was always the scope of the game.

Two years ago GW were still yapping on about Kislev and showing assets pulled from a video game. It was the second half of 2022 when they even decided what they were actually going to do with ToW.

The map shows the time period the game is still set in.

They've not said anything that indicates they've changed the scope of the game

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Two years ago GW were still yapping on about Kislev and showing assets pulled from a video game. It was the second half of 2022 when they even decided what they were actually going to do with ToW.

Yes because when Creative Assembly was working on the Vampire Coast DLC for Warhammer 2 they had to get approval of designs from GW as that army really didn't have much in the way of official models. This caused problems with development because GW kept rejecting designs.

So when Warhammer 3 came along Creative assembly said "Why don't you guys just design it for us so we dont have to waste time with this back and forth?" GW agreed.

So while those assets are for a video game, they are ultimately what GW wants those models to eventually look like.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/12/20/lords-of-the-lance-is-the-first-new-novel-for-the-world-of-legend/

Book got revealed today...reading the description of it now. Seems it's set in the Border Princes lands too, more fluff to add to that mostly uncharted part of legend.

Graham McNeill’s interview at the end of the article is rather interesting to read also...

Very little of this book is set in Bretonnia, but the attitudes of the lords and knights to the peasant host will be very familiar to fans of that realm. In many ways, it’s a ‘the more things change, the more they stay the same’ situation, but there are a number of differences the readers will spot very early on in terms of who can be a knight and how some of the characters feel their land could or should be, as opposed to how it actually is.

Emphasis mine. I guess it makes sense that Bretonnia became more sexist over time.

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Two years ago GW were still yapping on about Kislev and showing assets pulled from a video game. It was the second half of 2022 when they even decided what they were actually going to do with ToW.

Yes because when Creative Assembly was working on the Vampire Coast DLC for Warhammer 2 they had to get approval of designs from GW as that army really didn't have much in the way of official models. This caused problems with development because GW kept rejecting designs.

So when Warhammer 3 came along Creative assembly said "Why don't you guys just design it for us so we dont have to waste time with this back and forth?" GW agreed.

Where have you got that idea from? I've not seen anything about them rejecting design for Vampire Coast.

Vorian wrote:
The map shows the time period the game is still set in.

They've not said anything that indicates they've changed the scope of the game

When they spent the first few years showing off Kislev and said they and Cathay were being made for The Old World, only to then reveal they're actually not involved in the game and won't be released for several years after launch at best, that implies a change in scope.

Eh. Some of my Bret knights are Ladies instead of Sirs. You just have a hard time picking them out because they wear regular armor and helms, because that's what keeps you alive in a swirling melee.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Two years ago GW were still yapping on about Kislev and showing assets pulled from a video game. It was the second half of 2022 when they even decided what they were actually going to do with ToW.

Yes because when Creative Assembly was working on the Vampire Coast DLC for Warhammer 2 they had to get approval of designs from GW as that army really didn't have much in the way of official models. This caused problems with development because GW kept rejecting designs.

So when Warhammer 3 came along Creative assembly said "Why don't you guys just design it for us so we dont have to waste time with this back and forth?" GW agreed.

Where have you got that idea from? I've not seen anything about them rejecting design for Vampire Coast.

Vorian wrote:
The map shows the time period the game is still set in.

They've not said anything that indicates they've changed the scope of the game

When they spent the first few years showing off Kislev and said they and Cathay were being made for The Old World, only to then reveal they're actually not involved in the game and won't be released for several years after launch at best, that implies a change in scope.

They didn't though, did they? They released some articles to coincide with TWW and talked about the new areas they had mapped worked in TOW time period and in the later Warhammer time.

They didn't say anywhere that TOW was going to be featuring Kislev or Cathays on release.

Yea, they didn't outright say that Kislev would be the first faction out of the gate but it was implied by being the first faction they talked about (and didn't mention it was pulled from Total War, like they did with Cathay)

A perfect candidate for further investigation is the harsh, frozen realm found to the north of the Empire – Kislev, the land of the Ice Queens. To that end, let’s take a look at a project that’s currently in development…

A few weeks ago, we saw an early look at one of the factions that’s in the works for the return of Warhammer’s Old World – the cold northern nation of Kislev. Today, we’re taking a look at one of the thematic aspects of that force: bears!

One new unit that’s in the early stages of development is set in the Ice Court – the seat of the ruling Tsar or Tsarina.

We can’t wait to see the bear cavalry that will be coming to Warhammer: The Old World.

Vorian wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Two years ago GW were still yapping on about Kislev and showing assets pulled from a video game. It was the second half of 2022 when they even decided what they were actually going to do with ToW.

Yes because when Creative Assembly was working on the Vampire Coast DLC for Warhammer 2 they had to get approval of designs from GW as that army really didn't have much in the way of official models. This caused problems with development because GW kept rejecting designs.

So when Warhammer 3 came along Creative assembly said "Why don't you guys just design it for us so we dont have to waste time with this back and forth?" GW agreed.

Where have you got that idea from? I've not seen anything about them rejecting design for Vampire Coast.

Vorian wrote:
The map shows the time period the game is still set in.

They've not said anything that indicates they've changed the scope of the game

When they spent the first few years showing off Kislev and said they and Cathay were being made for The Old World, only to then reveal they're actually not involved in the game and won't be released for several years after launch at best, that implies a change in scope.

They didn't though, did they? They released some articles to coincide with TWW and talked about the new areas they had mapped worked in TOW time period and in the later Warhammer time.

They didn't say anywhere that TOW was going to be featuring Kislev or Cathays on release.

They said that Cathay was being made for The Old World and would be coming to it.

>It’s taken more than three decades, but light is finally being shed on the mysterious eastern realm of Cathay. Though this nation’s first full appearance in the world of Warhammer can be seen in the just-released Total War: Warhammer III, Cathay will also be coming to the tabletop in the upcoming Warhammer: The Old World. And now, there’s a map. Here’s the Old World supremo Andy Hoare to explain.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/18/grand-cathay-is-mapped-for-the-first-time-in-warhammer-the-old-world/

They said in another article Kislev was being done as part of the Return to The Old World:

...one of the factions that’s in the works for the return of Warhammer’s Old World

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/05/11/old-world-update-bearsgw-homepage-post-4/

And in that same article they mentioned the Bear Cavalry being made into models.

It was not something done just for TWW (although they were with them) or the map/lore side.

They did not say on release, but they did say they're coming. As I said, they spent the first few years hyping up the project with something that is only coming a few years after the games release, at best.

Voss wrote:
Yeah, I don't care about the old maps they published two years ago before the scope of the game changed. I care about the factions they've said the game will support.

There also aren't any kits they can pull out of the metaphorical closet and put back into production

I don't think theres any evidence to support the idea that the scope changed, whatsoever, at all. They showed us a map of the Border Princes, and lo and behold earlier this year they announced the first wave of the game will be based in the Border Princes. Hell of a coincidence, right? Also (and its stunning that I have to apparently explain this to a grown-ass adult), a list of *returning* factions that are divided into "Core" and (for lack of a better term) "Unsupported" categories is not mutually exclusive with a list of *new* factions being added for TOW.

They are also still using that map - its inside the front cover of the new Bretonnian novel that BL is publishing.

 Just Tony wrote:

Voss wrote:
Yeah, I don't care about the old maps they published two years ago before the scope of the game changed. I care about the factions they've said the game will support.
There also aren't any kits they can pull out of the metaphorical closet and put back into production

A couple years ago GW let Revell run off models from Black Reach and sell them. I'd say they haven't scrapped any molds unless absolutely necessary, which means they could bring back ANYTHING they want.

And I'd sacrifice an organ if they'd want to run off fresh copies of the Talisman Dragon. Or the Swarms and Minotaurs from Warhammer Quest...

As far as Revell is concerned, unless they were GWs molds on loan to Revell, whatever molds Revell had would have been destroyed if they weren't turned over to GW. Its standard licensing practice in the plastics industry (and standard language in licensing contracts for goods which require production tooling). At the conclusion or expiry of the license the molds and tooling is usually cut up and either disposed of to landfill or turned over to recycling. Some shops have forges or foundries or whatever where they can melt down the scrap for re-use as lower grade steel or whatever, but I think most of the time you have to send that out for processing and refinement or whatever. Incidentally though, a lot of the toys and action figures produced in China in the 70s/80s/early 90s was just disposed of by dumping them into Hong Kong bay without actually cutting up the molds - if you know how to scuba dive and have access to a ship and industrial equipment you might be able to recover some of them and put them back into production and make a mint

As far as GW is concerned, they haven't kept 100% of their molds, theres quite a bit that they no longer have the means to manufacture due to damage or deterioration, but I think probably 98% of everything that was sold within the past 20-30 years is probably still available. The majority of their metal minis though, if its older than around ~25 years or so its gone forever, those molds have limited shelf-lives and prior to the early 2000s GW did not properly maintain their master molds so that they could replace them. There was an effort made out of their short-lived US factory in the mid-2000s to try to repair and remaster many of the older metal molds, they managed to get quite a few older minis back into production but internal GW politics killed the project and there were many molds that basically got thrown out as unsalvageable as a result.

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:

Voss wrote:
Yeah, I don't care about the old maps they published two years ago before the scope of the game changed. I care about the factions they've said the game will support.

GW has a 2 year lead time on development, so no. Stuff that came out 2 years ago is not changing the scope. It was always the scope of the game.

Actually 3 years more generally. The Sisters were an experiment in doing it on a shorter schedule and timeline than normal. Still though, while I agree that the scope hasn't changed (or at least not that much), I have to point out the flaw in your premise is that just because you have a lead time of x doesn't mean that things can't change within that timeframe. There are certain aspects of the design which get locked in early on, there are other things that aren't set in stone until 6 months before release.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Two years ago GW were still yapping on about Kislev and showing assets pulled from a video game. It was the second half of 2022 when they even decided what they were actually going to do with ToW.

Kislev are not defined as a "returning faction" (in that GW specifically referenced these as being factions with rules in 8th edition), which is the only category of faction that GW has fully and transparently discussed recently. Their lack of mention of Kislev or other new factions doesn't mean that the scope of the project or their plans changed, it just means they aren't talking about Kislev/those other factions at the moment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Two years ago GW were still yapping on about Kislev and showing assets pulled from a video game. It was the second half of 2022 when they even decided what they were actually going to do with ToW.

Yes because when Creative Assembly was working on the Vampire Coast DLC for Warhammer 2 they had to get approval of designs from GW as that army really didn't have much in the way of official models. This caused problems with development because GW kept rejecting designs.

So when Warhammer 3 came along Creative assembly said "Why don't you guys just design it for us so we dont have to waste time with this back and forth?" GW agreed.

Where have you got that idea from? I've not seen anything about them rejecting design for Vampire Coast.

News to me as well. I only ever heard it was a positive and collaborative experience between CA and the studio.

Vorian wrote:
The map shows the time period the game is still set in.
They've not said anything that indicates they've changed the scope of the game

When they spent the first few years showing off Kislev and said they and Cathay were being made for The Old World, only to then reveal they're actually not involved in the game and won't be released for several years after launch at best, that implies a change in scope.

They showed off Kislev like... two maybe three times in the span of a few months (so not "first few years") and I think they only mentioned Cathay like once in this context.

They haven't revealed that they're actually not involved in the game.

They haven't indicated that they won't be released for several years after launch.

Your take is like 90% made up fiction.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Yea, they didn't outright say that Kislev would be the first faction out of the gate but it was implied by being the first faction they talked about (and didn't mention it was pulled from Total War, like they did with Cathay)

A perfect candidate for further investigation is the harsh, frozen realm found to the north of the Empire – Kislev, the land of the Ice Queens. To that end, let’s take a look at a project that’s currently in development…

A few weeks ago, we saw an early look at one of the factions that’s in the works for the return of Warhammer’s Old World – the cold northern nation of Kislev. Today, we’re taking a look at one of the thematic aspects of that force: bears!

One new unit that’s in the early stages of development is set in the Ice Court – the seat of the ruling Tsar or Tsarina.

We can’t wait to see the bear cavalry that will be coming to Warhammer: The Old World.

As much as I might have wanted it or enjoyed it, did you *really* expect that GW was going to launch this game with a whole new set of factions INSTEAD OF the actual factions that existed in the predecessor game that this is all based on???? Thats kind of a "you problem" if you did, and I think if you go through discussions from the very start most people expected at least a few (if not the entire roster) of the original WHFB factions to be returned on launch. That alone made it unlikely that GW would have Kislev available on launch day. My own recollection is that most of us expected the launch (even after Kislev/Cathay were revealed) to be similar to the HH Age of Darkness box, except it would be a box full of Empire minis that you could paint up to represent two competing sides of the 4-way civil war that is the Age of Three Emperors during this time period, or as one really big army. The idea that "Kislev was supposed to be first" is one of seemingly recent fiction as I don't really recall that ever having been an expectation before.

chaos0xomega wrote:

As much as I might have wanted it or enjoyed it, did you *really* expect that GW was going to launch this game with a whole new set of factions INSTEAD OF the actual factions that existed in the predecessor game that this is all based on???? Thats kind of a "you problem" if you did, and I think if you go through discussions from the very start most people expected at least a few (if not the entire roster) of the original WHFB factions to be returned on launch.

Sorry but I am 100% sure the consensus in this thread for a time was a "Empire civil war" starter with possibly two copies of one new set of sculpts, like Age of Darkness.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

As much as I might have wanted it or enjoyed it, did you *really* expect that GW was going to launch this game with a whole new set of factions INSTEAD OF the actual factions that existed in the predecessor game that this is all based on???? Thats kind of a "you problem" if you did, and I think if you go through discussions from the very start most people expected at least a few (if not the entire roster) of the original WHFB factions to be returned on launch.

Sorry but I am 100% sure the consensus in this thread for a time was a "Empire civil war" starter with possibly two copies of one new set of sculpts, like Age of Darkness.

That’s still one of the old WFB factions and not a new one. Albeit people were expecting more new sculpts.

DakkaDakka's That Guys are rarely able to notice what other people are saying in the best of circumstances. 😂

 nathan2004 wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/12/20/lords-of-the-lance-is-the-first-new-novel-for-the-world-of-legend/

Book got revealed today...reading the description of it now. Seems it's set in the Border Princes lands too, more fluff to add to that mostly uncharted part of legend.

Graham McNeill’s interview at the end of the article is rather interesting to read also...

I think this interview really highlights the hole they've dug for themselves. It sounds like they want to make this era of WFB more hopefully and bright than previous iterations, but are completely tied into mentioning the end times as many times as they can!

I'm sure this will be an enjoyable read, but I'm also sure we will end up with an 'end times' counter on some website, listing the amount of times they insert a mention of it into the new books no matter what the context of the story is!

I've always been sort of in the middle with my opinion of the end times, I don't hate it, I enjoyed those bits of it I have read, but I don't have a strong attachment to it either (ie: if they were to retcon it, I'd be like 'hey thats cool' and keep painting. I get why a lot of folk hate it and pretend it never existed), but I'm already finding their articles grating with the amount of times they go 'hey, you didn't forget the end times did you!', like they are trying to double down on how awesome it was.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

As much as I might have wanted it or enjoyed it, did you *really* expect that GW was going to launch this game with a whole new set of factions INSTEAD OF the actual factions that existed in the predecessor game that this is all based on???? Thats kind of a "you problem" if you did, and I think if you go through discussions from the very start most people expected at least a few (if not the entire roster) of the original WHFB factions to be returned on launch.

Sorry but I am 100% sure the consensus in this thread for a time was a "Empire civil war" starter with possibly two copies of one new set of sculpts, like Age of Darkness.

Thanks for proving my point for me? Thats still not Kislev or Cathay, instead thats at best entirely new or mostly-new models for an existing faction. I don't think we ever imagined GW to be quite this lazy as to reissue the old minis, but that was never entirely off the table either - some of the Empire sculpts are new enough that it was reasonable to expect them to not be entirely replaced.

 Mallo wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/12/20/lords-of-the-lance-is-the-first-new-novel-for-the-world-of-legend/
Book got revealed today...reading the description of it now. Seems it's set in the Border Princes lands too, more fluff to add to that mostly uncharted part of legend.
Graham McNeill’s interview at the end of the article is rather interesting to read also...

I think this interview really highlights the hole they've dug for themselves. It sounds like they want to make this era of WFB more hopefully and bright than previous iterations, but are completely tied into mentioning the end times as many times as they can!
I'm sure this will be an enjoyable read, but I'm also sure we will end up with an 'end times' counter on some website, listing the amount of times they insert a mention of it into the new books no matter what the context of the story is!
I've always been sort of in the middle with my opinion of the end times, I don't hate it, I enjoyed those bits of it I have read, but I don't have a strong attachment to it either (ie: if they were to retcon it, I'd be like 'hey thats cool' and keep painting. I get why a lot of folk hate it and pretend it never existed), but I'm already finding their articles grating with the amount of times they go 'hey, you didn't forget the end times did you!', like they are trying to double down on how awesome it was.

I think its GW trying to message-between-the-lines that The End Times are not being retconned and WHFB as you knew it is never coming back and Age of Sigmar is not being replaced, etc.

 Mallo wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/12/20/lords-of-the-lance-is-the-first-new-novel-for-the-world-of-legend/

Book got revealed today...reading the description of it now. Seems it's set in the Border Princes lands too, more fluff to add to that mostly uncharted part of legend.

Graham McNeill’s interview at the end of the article is rather interesting to read also...

I think this interview really highlights the hole they've dug for themselves. It sounds like they want to make this era of WFB more hopefully and bright than previous iterations, but are completely tied into mentioning the end times as many times as they can!

I'm sure this will be an enjoyable read, but I'm also sure we will end up with an 'end times' counter on some website, listing the amount of times they insert a mention of it into the new books no matter what the context of the story is!

I've always been sort of in the middle with my opinion of the end times, I don't hate it, I enjoyed those bits of it I have read, but I don't have a strong attachment to it either (ie: if they were to retcon it, I'd be like 'hey thats cool' and keep painting. I get why a lot of folk hate it and pretend it never existed), but I'm already finding their articles grating with the amount of times they go 'hey, you didn't forget the end times did you!', like they are trying to double down on how awesome it was.

There has always been an "End times coming" - its like Ragnarok - and The End Times is just one version of it in one Warhammer reality - there is also the Storm of Chaos and in the Bloodbowl one I doubt it comes at all. Different realities are also referenced in the lore.....

there is a difference in "the end times comes but the world continues" and "the whole world is blown up"

and warhammer end times/storm of chaos until 8th was always that chaos will take over and the whole world becomes an ever changing waste where warbands fight for the glory of their gods

that the world itself will be gone is a very different scenario