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 Olthannon wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


And arcane book isn't free so you need to pay. Or if you think you can play without magic items and not autolose..oh naivety. Oh and spells.

Ah so for the 6-8 months of the release, you are saying if you play against either Bretonnians or Tomb Kings you'll auto-lose?

Talk of naivety my surprise throughout this is that this general back and forth here seems to be that yous expect better of GW?

What company won't try and get as much money out of their customers as possible?

If this was so good why doesn't gw adopt it in 40k and aos? Afterall more players...

This is unusually bad even for gw.

And yes non-bretonnia/tk will be at disadvantage. Traditional thing with index/army books. No reason to think tow won't be same. If anything it will be more so since gw went for more of anti-player than usual.

This is, quite literally, pretty standard way GW releases stuff. Nothing about the multiple books and such is out of the ordinary for GW. Personally I cant wait to get my hands on the books.

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
This is, quite literally, pretty standard way GW releases stuff. Nothing about the multiple books and such is out of the ordinary for GW. Personally I cant wait to get my hands on the books.

Oh? Aos doesnt do this. 40k doesn't do this. What does?

Note how 40k did it. Free index until codex comes. 1 book.

Aos? 1 book you need. If you want units to ally 0 book for allies.

Ravening hordes from 6th was mentioned missing point. Totally different to rh.

8ed 40k? Still not same.

Quite big armies for 1,250. Certainly enough to get a proper game in I’d reckon.

Now wondering how the points breakdown.

tneva82 wrote:
Note how 40k did it. Free index until codex comes. 1 book.

Aos? 1 book you need. If you want units to ally 0 book for allies.

Ravening hordes from 6th was mentioned missing point. Totally different to rh.

8ed 40k? Still not same.

Those were all transferring existing armies across to a new edition of an existing game. For all intents and purposes, this is a new game to GW - note it's called Old World, not Fantasy Battle - that just happens to use old models. And the intent seems to be that Forces of Fantasy and Ravening Hordes are core books rather than 'get you by' lists - the 'non-core' factions are getting free rules, which will be outdated when, years down the line, they get to having a physical release.

tneva82 wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
This is, quite literally, pretty standard way GW releases stuff. Nothing about the multiple books and such is out of the ordinary for GW. Personally I cant wait to get my hands on the books.

Oh? Aos doesnt do this. 40k doesn't do this. What does?

Note how 40k did it. Free index until codex comes. 1 book.

Aos? 1 book you need. If you want units to ally 0 book for allies.

Ravening hordes from 6th was mentioned missing point. Totally different to rh.

8ed 40k? Still not same.

Well for starters, Horus Heresy

Secondly what exactly is wrong with a Rulebook and a compendium with the army you want? Keep in mind you do not need the Arcane Journal to play. It just contains specialty army lists.

And before anyone makes a snarky post about how "The specialty list will probably be better than the compendium ones" I'd really REALLY like for this game to avoid tournament brain as much as possible. Especially since I see it leaking here before the game has even come out yet.

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
Secondly what exactly is wrong with a Rulebook and a compendium with the army you want? Keep in mind you do not need the Arcane Journal to play. It just contains specialty army lists.

And before anyone makes a snarky post about how "The specialty list will probably be better than the compendium ones" I'd really REALLY like for this game to avoid tournament brain as much as possible. Especially since I see it leaking here before the game has even come out yet.

Ah the old "GW is right, all the players are doing it wrong" defense, classic.

Oh look, OW is a minimal effort nostalgia cash-grab where playing fully requires 3 expensive books. Colour me shocked.
GW's contempt for fans of WHFB reaches new heights every day, doesn't it? I'd say I hope it crashes and burns (since it's exactly what they'd deserve), but we all already know that enough folk are too deep in corporate worship to resist handing over hundreds of pounds for this pathetic release. And I say this as someone who *loves* the old models.
For once, it'd be nice if GW were actually held to some standards. Until then, OW is offering nothing that Kings of War, or even just playing old WHFB editions, doesn't do better.

I guess I’m just happy they name dropped Hashut

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
Secondly what exactly is wrong with a Rulebook and a compendium with the army you want? Keep in mind you do not need the Arcane Journal to play. It just contains specialty army lists.

And before anyone makes a snarky post about how "The specialty list will probably be better than the compendium ones" I'd really REALLY like for this game to avoid tournament brain as much as possible. Especially since I see it leaking here before the game has even come out yet.

Ah the old "GW is right, all the players are doing it wrong" defense, classic.

Not all the players, just the tournament try-hard WAAC jerks who break the game for the rest of us. Some of us LIKE Tactical Squads.

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
This is, quite literally, pretty standard way GW releases stuff. Nothing about the multiple books and such is out of the ordinary for GW. Personally I cant wait to get my hands on the books.

Oh? Aos doesnt do this. 40k doesn't do this. What does?

Note how 40k did it. Free index until codex comes. 1 book.

Aos? 1 book you need. If you want units to ally 0 book for allies.

Ravening hordes from 6th was mentioned missing point. Totally different to rh.

8ed 40k? Still not same.

Well for starters, Horus Heresy

Secondly what exactly is wrong with a Rulebook and a compendium with the army you want? Keep in mind you do not need the Arcane Journal to play. It just contains specialty army lists.

And before anyone makes a snarky post about how "The specialty list will probably be better than the compendium ones" I'd really REALLY like for this game to avoid tournament brain as much as possible. Especially since I see it leaking here before the game has even come out yet.

Speciality lists,magic items, spells...more.

Sure you "can" play without it. Technically speaking you don't need codex space marines to play marines(without piracy). Seen many play so?

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
This is, quite literally, pretty standard way GW releases stuff. Nothing about the multiple books and such is out of the ordinary for GW. Personally I cant wait to get my hands on the books.

Oh? Aos doesnt do this. 40k doesn't do this. What does?

Note how 40k did it. Free index until codex comes. 1 book.

Aos? 1 book you need. If you want units to ally 0 book for allies.

Ravening hordes from 6th was mentioned missing point. Totally different to rh.

8ed 40k? Still not same.

Secondly what exactly is wrong with a Rulebook and a compendium with the army you want? Keep in mind you do not need the Arcane Journal to play. It just contains specialty army lists.

And before anyone makes a snarky post about how "The specialty list will probably be better than the compendium ones" I'd really REALLY like for this game to avoid tournament brain as much as possible. Especially since I see it leaking here before the game has even come out yet.

+1, they are just trolls (3 books required to play? ).

I only need 2 books: rulebook + armies book, as always.

SU-152 wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
This is, quite literally, pretty standard way GW releases stuff. Nothing about the multiple books and such is out of the ordinary for GW. Personally I cant wait to get my hands on the books.

Oh? Aos doesnt do this. 40k doesn't do this. What does?

Note how 40k did it. Free index until codex comes. 1 book.

Aos? 1 book you need. If you want units to ally 0 book for allies.

Ravening hordes from 6th was mentioned missing point. Totally different to rh.

8ed 40k? Still not same.

Secondly what exactly is wrong with a Rulebook and a compendium with the army you want? Keep in mind you do not need the Arcane Journal to play. It just contains specialty army lists.

And before anyone makes a snarky post about how "The specialty list will probably be better than the compendium ones" I'd really REALLY like for this game to avoid tournament brain as much as possible. Especially since I see it leaking here before the game has even come out yet.

+1, they are just trolls (3 books required to play? ).

I only need 2 books: rulebook + armies book, as always.

Well if you play bretonnia not magic items, spells, special characters. Have to take infantry(no all knight lists).

You'll be seriously underpowered vs other brets and tomb king and once others get their arcanum those too.

There's no 1 book for all bretonnia stuff.

Unlike say necrons, tvranid, skaven, cities of sigmar...

And if you instead take book with above no knight of the realms, duke, paladin, men at arms etc etc etc

We've seen the Bretonnian core army. There's Knights. They're even mandatory.

tneva82 wrote:

Well if you play bretonnia not magic items, spells, special characters. Have to take infantry(no all knight lists).

You'll be seriously underpowered vs other brets and tomb king and once others get their arcanum those too.

There's no 1 book for all bretonnia stuff.

Unlike say necrons, tvranid, skaven, cities of sigmar...

And if you instead take book with above no knight of the realms, duke, paladin, men at arms etc etc etc

See? Tournament brain

Also, please list exactly where is says in the GW article magic items/spells/special characters are not in the compendium? The arcane books are for Specialty lists, like the Errantry war where you can probably take an all knight list with no need for Peasants. No where in the article does it say you will not get your full compliment of Items or rules.

Rulebook + Compendium, thats all you need.

Gosh, such controversy.

I wonder if one could maybe, I dunno. Hmm. OK. Here’s an idea. But brace yourself, because it’s more radical than a fundie in a Hawaiian shirt and shades, cap at the mathematically derived jauntiest of angles, on a skateboard, which is mounted to a surfboard, jumping over tattooed sharks…….

We could…talk to our opponent, and ask if they mind just sticking to the hardback books, until we each have our compendiums.


Right. I’ve got to go. The Sane And Resonable Police are almost certainly gonna be on their way.

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:

See? Tournament brain

that is why in 8th 40k were there was a similar problem with Index VS Codex, all the tournaments were the ones using Index only and ignored the Codizes until more were available, while it was the casual players that said "I am not going to play without the fluff/narrative strategems"

will be similar here, tournaments will cut Allies, Mercenaries and Magic Items/Spells from the Journal until some more factions are released and the casual players will face to full force of Bretonnia because "the narritive"

On the whole "Good vs. Evil" thing, I would be willing to bet that is to do allies and such rather than philosophical commentary on the motivations of given factions.
It's not like it's never been done before. Hell, all the trailers for Warhammer Online had Dark Elves, Chaos, and Orks on the same side with the Empire, High/Wood Elves, and Dwarves on the other.
The complex nature of politics and diplomacy in the setting aren't ignored just because the game rulebooks have a specific word in them.

 kodos wrote:
will be similar here, tournaments will cut Allies, Mercenaries and Magic Items/Spells from the Journal until some more factions are released and the casual players will face to full force of Bretonnia because "the narritive"

Hopefully, TOW will be more like HH and competitive events will be the minority. Bad combos still happen but the number of players I've met IRL who have used "muh narrative" as a reason for using busted rules I can count on one hand.

I am (relatively) sure that you only need main rulebook and faction book to run game and armies just fine.

Now Arcane Journals are softbooks so those can be quite minor additions in overall picture.

 Gert wrote:
Hopefully, TOW will be more like HH and competitive events will be the minority.

have already seen tournament announcements for February/March so I guess people going to focus on that

 Gert wrote:
On the whole "Good vs. Evil" thing, I would be willing to bet that is to do allies and such rather than philosophical commentary on the motivations of given factions.

still makes Ogres as the classic Mercenary faction strange to be with Evil instead of neutral

Things Ogres do to you when not paid enough toll/gold/food whether you are random passerby or the one that bought their services first:
- Rob you
- Eat you
- Eat you more
- Probaply ate your family

Yes, Ogres are good guys.


And as they are coming as Pdf. (at first) they can have all manner of rules for all sort of mercenaries.

Goodness not sure what yall expected, this was all rumored before being confirmed today for the most part.

It’s not perfect and it was never going to meet some of your expectations but it’s something and not vaporware like some thought. Let’s see how the game plays, I like I only have to buy 2 books plus BRB since I have multiple armies.

These boxes only being 1250 pts are wild to me. I think we expected the big monster mounts to be ~400-500 pts each, no? Either they got cheaper or the cost of everything else is lower than expected.

I hate that they put the old Pegasus knights in the Bret box where they have to exist next to the new hero on Pegasus, awful choice there IMO

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Well the Book of Neutral would be just TK and Ogres.

Ogres aren't part of the game, they're a pdf list, so book of neutrals would just be TK if they did one.

Cataphract wrote:
I guess I’m just happy they name dropped Hashut

They've done it plenty in Age of Sigmar.

 MalusCalibur wrote:
Oh look, OW is a minimal effort nostalgia cash-grab where playing fully requires 3 expensive books. Colour me shocked.
GW's contempt for fans of WHFB reaches new heights every day, doesn't it? I'd say I hope it crashes and burns (since it's exactly what they'd deserve), but we all already know that enough folk are too deep in corporate worship to resist handing over hundreds of pounds for this pathetic release. And I say this as someone who *loves* the old models.
For once, it'd be nice if GW were actually held to some standards. Until then, OW is offering nothing that Kings of War, or even just playing old WHFB editions, doesn't do better.

KoW its a disgusting vainilla game

chaos0xomega wrote:
These boxes only being 1250 pts are wild to me. I think we expected the big monster mounts to be ~400-500 pts each, no? Either they got cheaper or the cost of everything else is lower than expected.

Khemri models are ~900 points in 8th Edition without the Dragon (as there was none) and 350 points for the priest on Dragon sounds about right (without the profile hard to tell if it is too cheap or not)
which would mean GW picks the game up were they left it with the points per model (also reasonable as they said all models from 8th will be there which is much easier to go with points from that edition)

 Gwindalor wrote:
KoW its a disgusting vainilla game

less than 8th Edi Fantasy was

The core rules of the game have already changed pretty dramatically from 8th that I doubt that points are unchanged from 8th. Besides TOW is not WHFB anyway, it's a new game.

 Gwindalor wrote:
KoW its a disgusting vainilla game

less than 8th Edi Fantasy was

 Gwindalor wrote:
Oh yeah, sure... I guess you are one of those nostalgic people who plays the 7th edition or earlier, isnt?. Well, get used to ToW, since it is quite similar to 8th edition, luckily! xD

6th Edition had the best background, and from that it just got worse as everything was just the same hyperbole in storytelling by 8th and there was no real flavour left
and TOW is nothing like 8th from what we have seen so far, but than if you think TOW would be lucky to be like 8th, there was a reason not many people were left playing that game and the rules were just a part of that and this is not something I would call lucky

and until we see what is in the Journal books, there is still a good chance that it is more like 6th (and having the appendix army lists back is a good indication for that)

so get used to it, 8th is dead and won't come back for good reasons


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:
The core rules of the game have already changed pretty dramatically from 8th that I doubt that points are unchanged from 8th. Besides TOW is not WHFB anyway, it's a new game.

of course it is, and maybe GW put the hours in to get all new point costs for all units that just ends to be on a similar level per force than 8th
yet I don't expect that, at least not on a full scale as it is much easier (and cheaper) to just take the existing values and make minor adjustments if at all, let the people play the game and than release points value based on player feedback

At least there will be some new Black Library books set in the Old World. I look forward to reading discussions here about the new fluff.

Other than that, this looks expensive and rather small scale. If we see new plastics for TOW for elves or Empire before June, I’ll be surprised. The promise of Cathay and Kislev are what made me interested in TOW in the first place, so until I see plastic kits for Cathay and Kislev I will continue to consider this release at least a bait-and-switch if not outright vapor ware. Selling me on Cathay and releasing old skeletons with a new dragon, that’s not a win.

GW releases 2 boxed armies, 5 books, new plastic releases, new forgeworld releases and its still vapourware? Stop embarrassing yourself