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WorldEdgePlayer wrote:
GW can have hundreds of molds but they do not have hundreds of injection machines. Do you think they have capacity and time to just put in production hundreds of new kits along all the other systems already in production? No.

Uh, yeah? Do you think all of the recently removed kits from the AoS lineup that fit with TOW were just tossed in a bin? Do you think there hasn't been any stockpiling while the game system was being designed?
TOW wasn't announced yesterday, my guy, and despite what people may have you believe, GW does know how to operate its business.

At launch you will only have Bretonnia and TKs sadly. They even say so in the article.

My error, allow me to clarify. GW will not let it be Bretonnia and TK for any longer than a month at most and I would not be shocked to see the two-week preorder for the initial two and then the next two factions up for preorder when the first release is done.

well, if GW already was stockpiling old kits, why did not they not start with the obvious faction were they have plenty of models in stock but rather build up stock for 2 new faction were everything needed to be done from scratch?

not like there is the possibility that those kits were removed because stock was running out and it was easier/cheaper to get new models done than making another casting run with old models

Because Bretonnia and TK have been OOP for ages and have attained Nostalgia status greater than any other Old World race.

They were the only armies for TW: WH1/2 that couldn't be bought in any real sense until TW: WH3 came along with Kislev, Cathay, and Chorfs.

Ergo, sell the ones that have the most hype first then bring the rest back.

If we are making predictions I think it will be far slower.

Pre-order of the two big boxes next week, available in a week or two - so, mid/late Jan.
Actual Bret/Khemri kits in regular boxes to follow afterwards. Based on typical delays (they want the big boxes to sell out) that probably means late Feb or even drifting to March.

Which means I think the earliest you'd see armies 3 and 4 would be April or May. Possibly even drifting on further (although I think it would be ahead of a big summer release which tends to happen/go on pre-order in June).

Admittedly, this assumes they plan a big box for each army - which, while making some sense, has not historically been the case with other games. But it does seem like a clear marketing strategy to follow.

On that timeline it means they'd just about be in position get wave 3 through before the end of the year. Which is basically my sort of timeline. I think by next Christmas you'd be able to walk into a store and say you wanted to collect TOW and there were say 6 factions that you could meaningfully buy.

I think its fair to say some of these are a significantly bigger effort than others. Re-boxing Beastmen for instance that were still being printed for AoS and have not changed in a long time isn't a huge effort. Other armies - High Elves come to mind - entail a dozen+ kits (and bags of characters) which have not been produced in significant volume for a long time.

Maybe being mean to Beastmen - but they seem like an obvious +1 to throw into a release wave, since 9 obviously doesn't divide by 2.

Again, this assumes we get more Core boxes. We may not. They could just start throwing things into stores on an almost ad hoc basis - but that's not how GW's marketing has ever really worked. They will want to sell you the army and not completely cannibalise their own sales efforts for other stuff.

I think I adequately mathematically illustrated 2-3 pages ago that putting the 9 factions back into production is not the major undertaking it's made out to be and within the realm of what GW has demonstrated itself capable of.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I think I adequately mathematically illustrated 2-3 pages ago that putting the 9 factions back into production is not the major undertaking it's made out to be and within the realm of what GW has demonstrated itself capable of.

I just don't agree with you.
If you are right then great.

 Gert wrote:
Because Bretonnia and TK have been OOP for ages and have attained Nostalgia status greater than any other Old World race.

They were the only armies for TW: WH1/2 that couldn't be bought in any real sense until TW: WH3 came along with Kislev, Cathay, and Chorfs.

Ergo, sell the ones that have the most hype first then bring the rest back.

I don't think people are fully appreciating this in particular. Bretonnians and TKs have been OOP for longer than anything else. Their resale value on ebay is absurd. Getting them out first made by far the most sense because they will sell by the shedload.

 Olthannon wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Because Bretonnia and TK have been OOP for ages and have attained Nostalgia status greater than any other Old World race.

They were the only armies for TW: WH1/2 that couldn't be bought in any real sense until TW: WH3 came along with Kislev, Cathay, and Chorfs.

Ergo, sell the ones that have the most hype first then bring the rest back.

I don't think people are fully appreciating this in particular. Bretonnians and TKs have been OOP for longer than anything else. Their resale value on ebay is absurd. Getting them out first made by far the most sense because they will sell by the shedload.

That's GW's hope, one would assume. Me, I wouldn't know what to do with a shed full of old plastic skeletons. Lock it up tight and spare the world the horror of their existence, I guess.

I'm suppose new rules and maybe a few extra sales to people too impatient to wait for their preferred faction's release might give Tomb Kings a boost, but I'm not sure there is any reason for the army to sell massively better than when they were last available.

They won't need to since as a "specialist" game the expectation will be lower.

 Geifer wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Because Bretonnia and TK have been OOP for ages and have attained Nostalgia status greater than any other Old World race.

They were the only armies for TW: WH1/2 that couldn't be bought in any real sense until TW: WH3 came along with Kislev, Cathay, and Chorfs.

Ergo, sell the ones that have the most hype first then bring the rest back.

I don't think people are fully appreciating this in particular. Bretonnians and TKs have been OOP for longer than anything else. Their resale value on ebay is absurd. Getting them out first made by far the most sense because they will sell by the shedload.

That's GW's hope, one would assume. Me, I wouldn't know what to do with a shed full of old plastic skeletons. Lock it up tight and spare the world the horror of their existence, I guess.

I'm suppose new rules and maybe a few extra sales to people too impatient to wait for their preferred faction's release might give Tomb Kings a boost, but I'm not sure there is any reason for the army to sell massively better than when they were last available.

I’m considering getting the TK and pointedly spent some time over Xmas finding the left over sprue from the 7th Ed skeletons for my VC army back in the day so I now have 70 something reasonably sized skulls and decent looking spears to use when I build them

Well in anycase, I am going with Beastmen so it is not bad if they come "later". Just need euclidian bases

Of course, I am more then happy if there is going to be big, bad ass army set coming but that would require GW to do something unheard of: Remember the Beastmen.

 Geifer wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Because Bretonnia and TK have been OOP for ages and have attained Nostalgia status greater than any other Old World race.

They were the only armies for TW: WH1/2 that couldn't be bought in any real sense until TW: WH3 came along with Kislev, Cathay, and Chorfs.

Ergo, sell the ones that have the most hype first then bring the rest back.

I don't think people are fully appreciating this in particular. Bretonnians and TKs have been OOP for longer than anything else. Their resale value on ebay is absurd. Getting them out first made by far the most sense because they will sell by the shedload.

That's GW's hope, one would assume. Me, I wouldn't know what to do with a shed full of old plastic skeletons. Lock it up tight and spare the world the horror of their existence, I guess.

I'm suppose new rules and maybe a few extra sales to people too impatient to wait for their preferred faction's release might give Tomb Kings a boost, but I'm not sure there is any reason for the army to sell massively better than when they were last available.

I can tell you multiple tomb king players are waiting to see what they price the warsphinx kit at. Original MSRP was something like $65 USD.

I was watching Ye Olde Vince Venturella 2024 Prediction video and they bring up some good points about ToW.

Like; the lack of miniatures, new or old, to be purchased to play. CoS is 2 months old and half the line is out of stock and most of what isn't brand new sculpts is Direct Only. So if you don't have an army, you can't really get one.

The secondary market makes GW no money and going through the roof off of speculation

The ToW launch boxes are filled with 20+ year old sculpts for the most part (but will probably FOMO sellout) with a new trinket model so Vet players already own most of the box.

325 page main book with only 75 pages of fluff? That could be an avalanche of rules.

It was a good listen, not the usual overreaction you get on forums.

 TalonZahn wrote:
It was a good listen, not the usual overreaction you get on forums.

Vince and co. usually have some great, nuanced takes. I got that episode in my queue, though I'm more interested in his AoS predictions.

Brace yourselves for the incoming essays attempting to refute anything mildly critical pointed out by Vince.

 TalonZahn wrote:

The ToW launch boxes are filled with 20+ year old sculpts for the most part (but will probably FOMO sellout) with a new trinket model so Vet players already own most of the box.

There's lots of vet WHFB players but the number of vet players with both Bret & TK armies is probably alot smaller. For example i have a large Bret army, but no Tomb Kings. So an easy decision of which box for me to get

325 page main book with only 75 pages of fluff? That could be an avalanche of rules.

This one interested me, so i grabbed my 8th ed. It's a larger book, and the breakdown is:

20 pages of introduction
131 pages of core rules
21 pages of army list & standard scenarios
117 pages of background
110 pages of miniatures
98 pages of narrative scenarios, campaigns, etc
33 pages of reference (which includes the Lores of Magic & magic items)

(May be off by the odd page)

Intro, Core, Army list & standard scenarios plus the reference section comes to 205 pages. Include the narrative & campaign stuff and you're at over 300 pages of "rules" for 8th. I expect TOW will be a little heavier in Core rules (thanks to the USRs) and the narrative scenarios, campaigns section could be entirely absent (that'll be for the future releases i expect) but at a glance it doesn't look totally off from the last WHFB release.

Tyel wrote:
If we are making predictions I think it will be far slower.

Pre-order of the two big boxes next week, available in a week or two - so, mid/late Jan.
Actual Bret/Khemri kits in regular boxes to follow afterwards. Based on typical delays (they want the big boxes to sell out) that probably means late Feb or even drifting to March.

Which means I think the earliest you'd see armies 3 and 4 would be April or May. Possibly even drifting on further (although I think it would be ahead of a big summer release which tends to happen/go on pre-order in June).

Admittedly, this assumes they plan a big box for each army - which, while making some sense, has not historically been the case with other games. But it does seem like a clear marketing strategy to follow.

On that timeline it means they'd just about be in position get wave 3 through before the end of the year. Which is basically my sort of timeline. I think by next Christmas you'd be able to walk into a store and say you wanted to collect TOW and there were say 6 factions that you could meaningfully buy.

Yes, I too believe we are looking at a defacto 2025 release in the sense that new players physically cannot get models from GW for a majority of the armies until the 2024/2025 new year. This after they cut the number of playable armies in half (yeah yeah I dont count the pdf legacy rules).

I am positive after seeing the rules and for sure will play, but the staggered release may be the only pathway to a full release, and I guess I'll stick to my WoC and pdf Skaven. Probably going to regret it if I dont get the army boxes, though, so I hope they sell out immediately so I dont have to have nonbuyers remorse in a few years time.

Also; serious question. I recently visited Warhammer World, adjacent to what I suppose is the Nottingham factory. Does it work 24/7, as in do they work night shifts too at the factory? Is the capacity truly stretched to the limit and they just cant print enough models for the demand to be met?

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Overread wrote:
It's going to be really interesting to see how GW walks the line between AoS and Old World considering that basically they could end up making both systems use each others entire model lines with the only diference between them being if you're playing skirmish or rank and file.

Even the base shape is honestly a bit of a strange one - GW could have gone round bases and then movement trays for Old World to make the two games entirely cross compatible.

Given the recent CoS purge and which races get pdfs only,I suspect GW’s intent is to minimise cross compatibility where practicable.

And use of square bases is one of the main draws for the system!

You'd think that due to the armies they have chosen to leave off, yet beastmen are being brought back and the AoS range is almost entirely old WFB minis. For some strange reason they never got the AoS make over other forces have now seen.

I'd have thought that Skaven would be the one range they would want cross compatibility with, but I guess skaven sell well enough for AoS and beastmen don't.

Its all very strange not including beastmen at the start with at least an Arcane Journal seeing as the range is all but still on sale.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 triplegrim wrote:


Also; serious question. I recently visited Warhammer World, adjacent to what I suppose is the Nottingham factory. Does it work 24/7, as in do they work night shifts too at the factory? Is the capacity truly stretched to the limit and they just cant print enough models for the demand to be met?

Its a power issue, or so the rumours go. They just can't run enough machines on the local power supply that they have. Apparently Samsung brought up the space they originally went to expand onto.

And they still have not yet released a basing chart so hobbyists can prepare. :/

My bet beastmen get removed from AoS after TOW releases. Then they reconstitute AoS beastmen with ogroids and the like from StD and a big wave of similar new models.

More likely they get a proper range redo to bring them more inline with the AoS theme and the old stuff gets ported back over.

chaos0xomega wrote:
My bet beastmen get removed from AoS after TOW releases. Then they reconstitute AoS beastmen with ogroids and the like from StD and a big wave of similar new models.

I can see that happening, they haven't really done much with Beastmen in AoS, same for the Dark Elves. If they do eventually move the time line on a bit, they could introduce them. A way to give AoS a clean break from having old WFB models, and allows WFB models a more fitting home where they belong.

Has there been any hint as to what Mercenaries are?

Is it dogs of war MTO, or just a few units of orcs and ogres, or something else altogether?

 stonehorse wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
My bet beastmen get removed from AoS after TOW releases. Then they reconstitute AoS beastmen with ogroids and the like from StD and a big wave of similar new models.

I can see that happening, they haven't really done much with Beastmen in AoS, same for the Dark Elves. If they do eventually move the time line on a bit, they could introduce them. A way to give AoS a clean break from having old WFB models, and allows WFB models a more fitting home where they belong.

lolwat?!

Dark Elves have had the most done with them out of all the non-AoS Elf factions. Daughters of Khaine is a whole faction, and Broken Realms: Morathi solidified Morathi full-on grabbing a Realmgate and the city it was located in...along with the Darkling Covens.

 McDougall Designs wrote:
And they still have not yet released a basing chart so hobbyists can prepare. :/

It isn’t 1998 anymore. GW releasing that prior to their own square bases being on sale is just bad business.

Anyone see anything about a supposed Spanish source claiming the new boxes will be €180?

 triplegrim wrote:
Has there been any hint as to what Mercenaries are?

Is it dogs of war MTO, or just a few units of orcs and ogres, or something else altogether?

Nothing specific yet. Maybe it's for Regiments of Renown - given they've brought back even the Forces of Fanasy name, there's no way RoR don't resurface in some form.

 triplegrim wrote:
Has there been any hint as to what Mercenaries are?

Is it dogs of war MTO, or just a few units of orcs and ogres, or something else altogether?

The Bret Army Composition article had some basic info.
-many army composition lists will include one or both of the following categories
"Mercenaries: Some armies can include specific units drawn from other army lists as mercenaries"
(vs Allies- "most armies can included an allied contingent drawn from another army list)


Brets can take up to 20% of their Point value on mercenaries.
(vs Allies as 25% spent on a single contingent from Any Bret Army of Infamy or Dwarves, Empire, High elves or wood elves, with Woodsie elves and stunties being 'suspicious')

They don't list out what the specific units are, but I wouldn't be surprised to see something like the 3rd edition Warhammer Armies book, where each army has a 'mercenary contingent' of about (usually) 4-6 units that can be used by others (though in 3rd, allies had similar-but-different allied contingent lists*). Not sure why the Bret Grand Army didn't list which armies can be used as mercenaries like it does the allies, but that's what we know at this point.

*allies vs mercs in 3rd was conceptually weird. Mercs had a page and a half of rules, mostly about loyalty and the death of the army commander. But the contingents were.... odd.
For example,
The dwarf allied contingent was a commander, 0-10 Iron Breakers, 0-40 dwarf crossbows, 10-80 dwarf warriors.
The mercenary contingent was a commander, 0-80 warriors (one unit of which could have crossbows, max unit size was 40), 0-6 sappers, and 0-4 cannons. If you wanted dwarf cannons in a friendly army that could take dwarves, they had to be mercs, because... reasons. But that's ok, since there wasn't a single army in the book that could take dwarfs as allies (no, not even Empire). huzzah for 1980s editing.

I think the main difference will be you can have a single unit as mercenaries, but allies will have to be an entire 'detachment' so probably a hero, at least one core, max 1 special that sorta deal.

MaxT wrote:

20 pages of introduction
131 pages of core rules
21 pages of army list & standard scenarios
117 pages of background
110 pages of miniatures
98 pages of narrative scenarios, campaigns, etc
33 pages of reference (which includes the Lores of Magic & magic items)

(May be off by the odd page)

Intro, Core, Army list & standard scenarios plus the reference section comes to 205 pages. Include the narrative & campaign stuff and you're at over 300 pages of "rules" for 8th. I expect TOW will be a little heavier in Core rules (thanks to the USRs) and the narrative scenarios, campaigns section could be entirely absent (that'll be for the future releases i expect) but at a glance it doesn't look totally off from the last WHFB release.

Nice to see some actual fact finding instead of the usual "as I remember" or "I reckon"s

Re; Models, I thought it was well known GW have maxed out their production in recent years hence why they never feel the need to drop prices/induce demand?

I got a load of old WDs for christmas. Even though I'm not really a WD kind of guy, the dozen issues from the late 90s are fascinating to me. Packed full of sales-bundles and how-to guides involving stuff not purchased from GW. Also illuminating that the minis were damned expensive back then too, if anything the value only became better in the 2000s, butt adjusted for inflation locally the prices aren't far off what they are now.