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What are those curves on the oversized poleaxe ? Did they let Orc forge their weapons now.

I didn't play much old world and owned very little and I'm not sure I'd bother with a TK army for free given the nature of those skeletons and cav/chariots, never mind the obscene prices on the ushabti etc and the fact the dopey croc-dragon could instead have been any number of far more useful kits. I can, however, see that for someone with most of an army or that likes the sculpts, that it being almost "fantasy horus heresy" in how the company treats it is fine for their needs. Same for people who love the billion USR's and stacked profiles for every unit rather the simpler ones of sigmar/40k.

Frankly given the choice of armies out the gates I think they've been trying to smoke the nostalgia weed a little too heavily, the metal units are too expensive, the models aren't as great as people tend to remember. Keying into the armies with better existing ranges might have been a better move, or more iconic armies possibly. But if I wanted a rank and flank game, I'm not sure 30 year old plastic minis at cheap-end of GW prices are doing it for me, I'd probably accept the hit-and-miss sculpts and run kings of war.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Chief Librarian Mephiston wrote:
It’s what I expected. I don’t think we’ll see any more 10-man boxes for basic infantry again. It’ll probably be 20 man boxes for elite units and even bigger for more common units. They’ve already said Peasant Bowmen, for instance, will come in boxes of 32 models.

They said Peasant Bowmen and other future regiments.

I've repeated this several times. Here's the exact quote:

These regiments and other future regiments are returning in boxes that contain enough plastic miniatures to make a full regiment, not just a rank or two. With the Peasant Bowmen box, you’ll be able to build a unit of 32 archers, complete with a command group and Defensive Stakes. So dreams of creating massive armies of ranked-up troops will be well within your grasp.

No, they said “these regiments”.

Meaning the regiments in that article.

Which included the Bretonnian foot knights.

Do I need to underline the part about "and other future regiments"?

They're giving you enough to make multiple ranks or multiple smaller units.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Chief Librarian Mephiston wrote:
It’s what I expected. I don’t think we’ll see any more 10-man boxes for basic infantry again. It’ll probably be 20 man boxes for elite units and even bigger for more common units. They’ve already said Peasant Bowmen, for instance, will come in boxes of 32 models.

They said Peasant Bowmen and other future regiments.

I've repeated this several times. Here's the exact quote:

These regiments and other future regiments are returning in boxes that contain enough plastic miniatures to make a full regiment, not just a rank or two. With the Peasant Bowmen box, you’ll be able to build a unit of 32 archers, complete with a command group and Defensive Stakes. So dreams of creating massive armies of ranked-up troops will be well within your grasp.

Just says regiments will be sold with enough for a complete unit.

20 models for elite units and 30-32 models for cheaper ones (depending on sprue layout) would work for that.

But the new double size boxes aren't really any cheaper than two old boxes, are they? And we don't know if the net result is just getting shorted a command sprue.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
But the new double size boxes aren't really any cheaper than two old boxes, are they? And we don't know if the net result is just getting shorted a command sprue.

I think largely yes, they are cheaper, I believe tomb guard are about 20% cheaper than they were before being removed from sale. They were however extortionate beforehand.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
But the new double size boxes aren't really any cheaper than two old boxes, are they? And we don't know if the net result is just getting shorted a command sprue.

If HH is a guide there might be a small, but not massive, saving.

Command sprue would only really be an issue for the Bret peasants and orc boyz. By 8th it was only them and TK skeletons who had a separate command sprue vs command bits just being on the main sprues. But for TK the command sprue came with the bows and shields, so you can’t really short on that unless (like the army box) you have so many skeletons you can split them so many archers and so many melee.

And for the peasants the command sprue came with 4 of the bodies so you’d be getting another 4 basic troops instead.
Tbh, this is probably exactly what they’re doing for them (28 troops +4 cmd) given they’ve made rules for the 4th model on the command sprue. Means more stakes for archers though!

I'd expect a box of 10 foot knights to go for $50 - maybe even $60 as is the case with some kits these days - so yeah, 20 for $80 is definitely a discount over what normal pricing looks like.

On that note though, do we think that a box of 20 foot knights will be best used to build one unit of 20 or two units of 10? Bretonnia is usually an MSU type army, and even the starter box is giving you 2 units of 6 mounted knights. Suddenly jumping to a block of 20 on foot seems almost excessive vs splitting it into smaller units of 10.

Dudeface wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
But the new double size boxes aren't really any cheaper than two old boxes, are they? And we don't know if the net result is just getting shorted a command sprue.

I think largely yes, they are cheaper, I believe tomb guard are about 20% cheaper than they were before being removed from sale. They were however extortionate beforehand.

They released as 32,5€ for 10, and now 62,5€ for 20 means a saving of 2,5€ compared to 2011

Dudeface wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
But the new double size boxes aren't really any cheaper than two old boxes, are they? And we don't know if the net result is just getting shorted a command sprue.

I think largely yes, they are cheaper, I believe tomb guard are about 20% cheaper than they were before being removed from sale. They were however extortionate beforehand.

They used to be £25.5 for 10: https://elementgames.co.uk/beastmen/special-units/tomb-kings-tomb-guard

So about 6.8% cheaper with the new £47.5 double size box.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I'd expect a box of 10 foot knights to go for $50 - maybe even $60 as is the case with some kits these days - so yeah, 20 for $80 is definitely a discount over what normal pricing looks like.

On that note though, do we think that a box of 20 foot knights will be best used to build one unit of 20 or two units of 10? Bretonnia is usually an MSU type army, and even the starter box is giving you 2 units of 6 mounted knights. Suddenly jumping to a block of 20 on foot seems almost excessive vs splitting it into smaller units of 10.

I don't know beyond looks like a cheap way to make Questing Knights!

Dudeface wrote:
I think largely yes, they are cheaper, I believe tomb guard are about 20% cheaper than they were before being removed from sale. They were however extortionate beforehand.

Been trying to track down historic prices.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/369346.page

I found this thread from 2011 that shows a lot prices. Back then Tomb Guard were $41.25 for 10. I suspect they may have been further hikes over the years though.

I think there are going to be "cheap plastics". Certainly by the standards of today. Whether its "cheap enough" to persuade someone to start is another question.

 Ohman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
But the new double size boxes aren't really any cheaper than two old boxes, are they? And we don't know if the net result is just getting shorted a command sprue.

I think largely yes, they are cheaper, I believe tomb guard are about 20% cheaper than they were before being removed from sale. They were however extortionate beforehand.

They used to be £25.5 for 10: https://elementgames.co.uk/beastmen/special-units/tomb-kings-tomb-guard

So about 6.8% cheaper with the new £47.5 double size box.

Ahh ok, I was adding on the price inflation tax of what 10 man elite units cost now, thank you!

 lord_blackfang wrote:
But the new double size boxes aren't really any cheaper than two old boxes, are they? And we don't know if the net result is just getting shorted a command sprue.

Well it isn't for the new units it seems. Since the new article says the foot knights come with enough for 2 commands so you can either do 2 10-mans or a 20-man. Plastic kits seem to be cheaper even before inflation than they were back in 2015 when the game died. The metal figures are more than inflation from 2015 would account for but I can't really tell if it's egregious (i.e. the ushabti were $15 before they went off sale) or if they are merely slightly over (if they were $20 before they went off sale). Right now they look like $28.33 per model. If they were $20 back in 2015 they'd cost $26.72 today. So not terribly unreasonable. But if they were $15 then they'd be $18.95 which is egregious.

Also @Dudeface

You win the internet for me today for presenting a reasonable and understanding stance.

Tyel wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I think largely yes, they are cheaper, I believe tomb guard are about 20% cheaper than they were before being removed from sale. They were however extortionate beforehand.

Been trying to track down historic prices.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/369346.page

I found this thread from 2011 that shows a lot prices. Back then Tomb Guard were $41.25 for 10. I suspect they may have been further hikes over the years though.

I think there are going to be "cheap plastics". Certainly by the standards of today. Whether its "cheap enough" to persuade someone to start is another question.

This is essentially it, cheap by comparison not definition.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I'd expect a box of 10 foot knights to go for $50 - maybe even $60 as is the case with some kits these days - so yeah, 20 for $80 is definitely a discount over what normal pricing looks like.

On that note though, do we think that a box of 20 foot knights will be best used to build one unit of 20 or two units of 10? Bretonnia is usually an MSU type army, and even the starter box is giving you 2 units of 6 mounted knights. Suddenly jumping to a block of 20 on foot seems almost excessive vs splitting it into smaller units of 10.

20 gives you full rank bonus though, whereas 10 you only get one rank and won’t stick about too long after casualties. And Brets need their infantry as anvils.

Tbh 6 is a bit on the low side for KotR, iirc 8-12 was more common in 6th/7th. It’s probably just that they’ve put 3 sprues of 4 in and 6 looks neater than 12 in the version of the Lance formation TOW uses.

zombie_sky_diver wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

So, the BSB on Pegasus is its own kit. Shame they won't just sell you the Pegasus in packs of 3 and let you make your own Pegasus Knights!

Not yet! They want you to buy a bunch of the old Pegasus before releasing new ones so you want to replace the old and outdated.

Whaaaat? GW would NEVER do that. It’s not like they shoved the old deathwing terminators into a bunch of box sets recently right before the new models came out…oh wait

I’m not a huge fan of the helmets being split in half

I fell out of Warhammer after 3rd edition, but The Old World has piqued my interest. Using the two previewed armies as precedent, would anyone hazard a guess at which kits we're likely to see re-released for various factions? While this is a broad question, and I'd be very glad to see any lists of plastics/metals we have good reason to expect, I'm particular interested in Dwarfs.

The reason I ask is that when AoS was first released, some units pulled double duty there – the Black Orcs, for example. Those have now been superceded by an AoS-specific equivalent. The most recent Dwarfs (Ironbreakers/Irondrakes and Longbeards/Hammerers) were another example, and I'm wondering if the kit will now straddle both games, or if we're more likely to see older metals pulled out for the Old World.

Did dwarfs have a plastic warrior kit for the End Times, or were they like Lothern Seaguard, and never made it beyond the starter box?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/01/02/old-world-almanack-designer-round-table-on-how-the-new-old-lore-was-written/

fun article. takeaways:

-Siege of Praag implied to maybe one day get a treatment, but directly stated to "not be anytime soon". Directly referenced as a "Siege of Terra" moment for the WHFB setting, and compared to it as the HH equivalent of the TOW narrative - the 30k game has been around for 10+ years now and still hasn't hit the Siege of Terra, so thats a pretty good indicator of how long we may need to wait before ever seeing the Siege of Praag. As per my previous comments on this, we might as well basically say its not going to happen because the timescale being discussed is lengthy and vague enough that we could be waiting 20-30 years or longer. Also, very directly stated that "our plan isn’t to start at the beginning and work our way, step-by-step, to the victory against Asavar Kul."

-Directly states (as I have said many times) that they will jump around in the timeline: "We are treating it as a whole playground of time that we can explore – we might do some of that sequentially, we might hop around".

-Directly states that Luminarks and Celestial Hurricanums aren't around as examples of things that don't exist and won't be in the game. I think this is our first sort of confirmation that there will be things that were present in the WHFB army lists that won't be usable in TOW? There is the implication that there are other things that DO exist in this timeline though, which may or may not be similar to these units and will allow these models to continue to be used (presumably as official/sanctioned "counts as" models?). Also more or less implies that flagellants won't necessarily be around as a unit (or if they are they are a rare choice) as there are "far fewer" people "wandering through the Empire and flagellating themselves".

-Steam tanks are definitely in. Not only are they in, but that whole thing about there only having been 12 of them? A myth, in actuality "there were loads of them". Steam tank armored company list confirmed (joke, unless...).

-Directly states (or very strongly implies) that they basically *wanted* VC and Skaven (at least) to not really be around in the story they are telling (for whatever reason). Again I state - it doesn't mean that there won't be vampire-led factions in the game, but I think the implied intent seems to be along the lines of exploring VC in different themes and contexts than they were in the past, as they specifically mention that the major VC leaders are all gone at this time, which implies minor leaders could be around. As the previous army was built and tailored to represent "major" VC, one can reasonably conclude that minor VC factions might not fit within that same mold and might look, operate, and behave differently (such as Zombie Pirates of the Vampire Coast).

-Directly states that just because characters were alive at this point doesn't necessarily mean they will be present in the game if they are not relevant to the story and setting. Seems to be a reference to Tyrion/Teclis IMO, who some have speculated would show up but known fluff really places them very solidly in Ulthuan at this time in their lives. Also references some characters who we may later be known as kings but are at this time still princes may show up, which I take to be a reference to Finubar, who prior to the Great War was a prince and was sent to the Old World to build alliances with the realms of men against the forces of Chaos, though from what I understand Bel-Hathor died before this period so absent a retcon there it would seem he should have already ascended to the Phoenix Throne by this point. Not sure who else that hint/tease might refer to, as I don't believe Tyrion/Teclis ever formally became kings? Theres also a hint of Magnus the Pious coming as a character eventually, as well as characters who are ancestors to later characters who haven't been born yet and hints about recognizable family names, especially with the Empire characters (I'm guessing that means that we see a character named like, I dunno, "Gunther Franz" the hint there is that its Karls great great great great great great great grandfather or something).

-Some stuff about the logic and rationale of Tomb Kings being evil, and how the community and/or fluff distorted the perception of what the Tomb Kings were over the years due to their opposition to chaos. Can't say I disagree with their take, once they explain it I have to agree the Tomb Kings certainly sound pretty much like the definition of what evil means in a practical sense.

-Hints about exiled Bretonnians using guns - not the knights themselves, but those who serve them. I think we saw somewhere something about Border Princes Brigands being a unit available to the Exile Army of Infamy, I guess this is a clue as to what they are - something akin to a men-at-arms or peasant with a gun. Goes hand in hand with the bombard as well.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I'd expect a box of 10 foot knights to go for $50 - maybe even $60 as is the case with some kits these days - so yeah, 20 for $80 is definitely a discount over what normal pricing looks like.

On that note though, do we think that a box of 20 foot knights will be best used to build one unit of 20 or two units of 10? Bretonnia is usually an MSU type army, and even the starter box is giving you 2 units of 6 mounted knights. Suddenly jumping to a block of 20 on foot seems almost excessive vs splitting it into smaller units of 10.

20 gives you full rank bonus though, whereas 10 you only get one rank and won’t stick about too long after casualties. And Brets need their infantry as anvils.

Tbh 6 is a bit on the low side for KotR, iirc 8-12 was more common in 6th/7th. It’s probably just that they’ve put 3 sprues of 4 in and 6 looks neater than 12 in the version of the Lance formation TOW uses.

Yeah, but Bret anvil infantry is like... a block of 30-40 men at arms, not a block of knights... right? Is there room for small elite units of knights as hammer-flankers to the anvil formed by larger blocks of men-at-arms? Maybe building units of 20 is still a safer bet.

As for mounted knights - yeah I was already thinking that units of 6 might be too few. Seems like the algorithm here is each rank is 1 more model than the previous, so the unit size "algorithm" would be 1-3-6-10-15-21, etc. I would guess that 15 or 21 knights in a unit is probably too many. 10 seems like a reasonable number though, though it doesn't match up well with box counts.

Honestly I think its near impossible to predict. Especially when you consider how many current AoS armies are using original Old World models or upgrades of them.

Even with the big chunk of updates, the Seraphon are still basically Lizardmen and would work in the Old World setting just fine. Heck Skaven are still running around with metals and plastics from first edition releases of those models (or very close second edition).

Dark Elves are basically all there in Old World and would be the most likely to make the jump along with Dwarves if just because both are things that have had nothing at all really done with them in the AoS setting. The only thing Dark Elves had done was a campaign book that "soft" put the army back together with the Daughters of Khaine elements. Meanwhile regular Dwaves have had nothing and lore wise are still basically a destroyed, dispersed people.

 Apologist wrote:
I fell out of Warhammer after 3rd edition, but The Old World has piqued my interest. Using the two previewed armies as precedent, would anyone hazard a guess at which kits we're likely to see re-released for various factions? While this is a broad question, and I'd be very glad to see any lists of plastics/metals we have good reason to expect, I'm particular interested in Dwarfs.

The reason I ask is that when AoS was first released, some units pulled double duty there – the Black Orcs, for example. Those have now been superceded by an AoS-specific equivalent. The most recent Dwarfs (Ironbreakers/Irondrakes and Longbeards/Hammerers) were another example, and I'm wondering if the kit will now straddle both games, or if we're more likely to see older metals pulled out for the Old World.

Did dwarfs have a plastic warrior kit for the End Times, or were they like Lothern Seaguard, and never made it beyond the starter box?

Dwarfs did have quite good collection of plastic kits, warriors included.

I think Slayers, flame cannon and other oddities were metal/finecast.

 Apologist wrote:
I fell out of Warhammer after 3rd edition, but The Old World has piqued my interest. Using the two previewed armies as precedent, would anyone hazard a guess at which kits we're likely to see re-released for various factions? While this is a broad question, and I'd be very glad to see any lists of plastics/metals we have good reason to expect, I'm particular interested in Dwarfs.

The reason I ask is that when AoS was first released, some units pulled double duty there – the Black Orcs, for example. Those have now been superceded by an AoS-specific equivalent. The most recent Dwarfs (Ironbreakers/Irondrakes and Longbeards/Hammerers) were another example, and I'm wondering if the kit will now straddle both games, or if we're more likely to see older metals pulled out for the Old World.

Did dwarfs have a plastic warrior kit for the End Times, or were they like Lothern Seaguard, and never made it beyond the starter box?

Only metal dwarf minis left are the Cogsmith, Runelord, and Warden King. I expect them and the 2 plastic kits you referenced to get cut from Age of Sigmar entirely and replaced by new AoS specific dwarf cities of sigmar kits, while the existing kits find their new permanent homes in TOW (at least until GW gets around to replacing them, anyway). GW has generally been moving towards distinct model ranges for all their games with minimal if any crossover, so I doubt they remain available in both games.

As someone who joined the hobby in 2019ish I have no nostalgia for WHFB and have only kept a cursory look at TOW until last weekend. The ramping up of the content on WarComm has me intrigued now but I'm on the fence as to whether to jump in.

On the one hand I'd like to try out a rank and file game as the whole strategic block formations appeals to me. The Bret launch box looks like a great paint project at a minimum and I love the look of the new units.

On the other hand so much stuff is in metal and resin it puts a real dampener on my enthusiasm. I don't have the time, space or patience for either medium unfortunately. Also there seems to be no local buzz, despite knowing people who played WHFB no one I know is getting out old armies for this. So I do worry I'll invest in a game going nowhere.

At £125ish from independent game stores the Bret box is just out of the Chrimbo cash budget but not by much.

Are there any other new to WHFB players planning to jump in on this? Any glaring red flags experienced players are seeing?

WRT to the ‘future kings who are princes’, IMO the dwarfs are a good bet in that regard.

In G&F Gotrek mentions his father (or might be grandfather) fighting at Hel Fenn against Mannfred, and that’s earlier than the TOW setting by some time.

So the likes of Thorgrim Grudgebearer and Ungrim Ironfist should be about already but not yet kings. Indeed Thorgrim was crowned just after the GWAC in 2304, so would definitely be active, though his father Alriksson would be High King (who apparently fought with distinction in the battle for Kislev) .

Given the Border Princes are right in Thorgrim’s back yard, I could well see a Prince Thorgrim coming with the first Dwarf AJ (possibly with High King Alriksson as well, using Thorgrim’s old model).

chaos0xomega wrote:
Only metal dwarf minis left are the Cogsmith, Runelord, and Warden King.

None of those Dwarf minis are metal, they're all plastic.

The Warden King is also Belegar Ironhammer, who unless I am mistaken, isn't around at this point. At least not in as the Exile King of Eight Peaks.

chaos0xomega wrote:
-Some stuff about the logic and rationale of Tomb Kings being evil, and how the community and/or fluff distorted the perception of what the Tomb Kings were over the years due to their opposition to chaos. Can't say I disagree with their take, once they explain it I have to agree the Tomb Kings certainly sound pretty much like the definition of what evil means in a practical sense.

Indeed and I totally agree with the analysis of the TKs as well. It's the same kind of idea that presents Nagash as a "good" guy because he opposes Chaos, when the reality is Nagash opposes Chaos because he wants to rule everything and force everyone to worship him.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/01/02/old-world-almanack-designer-round-table-on-how-the-new-old-lore-was-written/

Lore! Mighty Lore!

ah, my bad then, always assumed they were metal as the details on the sculpts didn't look as crisp as I would have expected them to be in plastic, though I think now that I think about it I have a plastic cogsmith mini sitting around somewhere at home, so I should have known that one at least was plastic.

So yeah, all the metal dwarves have been purged from Age of Sigmar in that case.

 Sotahullu wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/01/02/old-world-almanack-designer-round-table-on-how-the-new-old-lore-was-written/

Lore! Mighty Lore!

Was already posted (few posts above)

The Cogsmith was removed in the last CoS update and the Runelord comes on the fancy plinth that only takes a base swap (though most of the images on the webstore have it on the square base lol).

I am interested to see how Dorfs proceed with both TOW and AoS. I think they're very like Skaven in that the design team wasn't sure what to do with them post-End Times.