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One nice thing about the larger bases: I suspect I can reposition the thunderers and quarrelers to actually be aiming forward now instead of holding their weapons at an angle.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

Project plan:

Year 1: Panic about the joke an intern posted about the square bases aimed at mantic
Year 2: Show off loads of stuff to do with a computer game
Year 3: Argue with AoS bosses about which mini's they can't use
Year 4: Dig out the old moulds and put together a rulebook based on 8 existing rulebooks

Year 5: create a FOMO scheme based on artificial scarcity to sell old models at premium prices in a matter of hours

 Gimgamgoo wrote:


Project plan:

Year 1: Panic about the joke an intern posted about the square bases aimed at mantic
Year 2: Show off loads of stuff to do with a computer game
Year 3: Argue with AoS bosses about which mini's they can't use
Year 4: Dig out the old moulds and put together a rulebook based on 8 existing rulebooks

In seriousness, though: Was there anything from AoS excluded besides "legends only" lists? Not to minimize those, mind you. But I think all the Orcs and Goblins are still available, plus all the Dwarfs and the dryads/treemen. Is that everything for shared kits now?

I can't imagine using the old slayers instead of just building the new ones. Same with Chaos Warriors.

Cyel wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Looking at the changes for Orcs, I generally speaking really like it. The choice for the army to have lots of Impetuous units is a decent replacement for animosity,

Forced charges, pursuits and overruns used to be a death sentence in WFB. I remember the type of player me and my friends used to describe as "kid with Khorne", although sometimes it wasn't an actual kid. Basically a type of player who brought a fully Khornate army, "because so many attacks must kill all!!!" and after the first turn wasn't even needed at the table anymore, as you could play their army for them, forcing their units into charges at perfect angles while knowing exactly where they are going to end up, ready to receive flank charges or enfilading fire or getting stuck in a forest for the rest of the game...

Oooh. You’re ‘ard.

 Scottywan82 wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:


Project plan:

Year 1: Panic about the joke an intern posted about the square bases aimed at mantic
Year 2: Show off loads of stuff to do with a computer game
Year 3: Argue with AoS bosses about which mini's they can't use
Year 4: Dig out the old moulds and put together a rulebook based on 8 existing rulebooks

In seriousness, though: Was there anything from AoS excluded besides "legends only" lists? Not to minimize those, mind you. But I think all the Orcs and Goblins are still available, plus all the Dwarfs and the dryads/treemen. Is that everything for shared kits now?

I can't imagine using the old slayers instead of just building the new ones. Same with Chaos Warriors.

Curiously, it looks like the Chaos Warshrine didn't make it.

 Scottywan82 wrote:

In seriousness, though: Was there anything from AoS excluded besides "legends only" lists? Not to minimize those, mind you. But I think all the Orcs and Goblins are still available, plus all the Dwarfs and the dryads/treemen. Is that everything for shared kits now?

some units are out like the newer tree spirits or the wizard wagons

though the Beastman part in the books is a little short on pictures and we don't know what will be cut from AoS 4th in summer

The issue for Khorne was that you could make super killy units which were mega expensive, so yes, fairly easy to just lead away to the point they'd never achieve what they needed to. A quick check for instance suggests a tricked out Chaos Lord and 7 Chosen Knights will be 600-700 points in this edition.

Whereas 10 boar boys is going to set you back 200 points or so. I mean I don't want them chasing say a Great Eagle all game - but if they catch it and then do anything else its not the end of the world.

Luke82 wrote:

Cyel wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Looking at the changes for Orcs, I generally speaking really like it. The choice for the army to have lots of Impetuous units is a decent replacement for animosity,

Forced charges, pursuits and overruns used to be a death sentence in WFB. I remember the type of player me and my friends used to describe as "kid with Khorne", although sometimes it wasn't an actual kid. Basically a type of player who brought a fully Khornate army, "because so many attacks must kill all!!!" and after the first turn wasn't even needed at the table anymore, as you could play their army for them, forcing their units into charges at perfect angles while knowing exactly where they are going to end up, ready to receive flank charges or enfilading fire or getting stuck in a forest for the rest of the game...

Oooh. You’re ‘ard.

I don't get it, care to explain ?

It's a joke because your post can be construed as bragging. "Oooh, you're hard!", hard as in tough. Imagine someone saying it on a south east of England accent.

Ah, yes, I get it Not bragging, though, it was pretty obvious for anyone with even a little experience that Frenzy=trouble (hence "kids with Khorne" because only newbies could fall into that trap).

Even if I could brag about some of my experiences back than, beating a Khorne army is like the complete opposite of anything even remotely "braggable" More a synonym of taking a lollypop from a kid, so a bit embarassing, really, when you needed to do it at a tournament for example...


I kind of remember some ambitious projects from really good players, who were trying to work around the problem by carefully corraling (by blocking LOS or charge corridors) these frenzied Khornate Knights with non-frenzied units until they were ready to charge, but I don't think I have ever seen it actually work. It was jumping thorugh a lot of hoops for a very unreliable result.

Yeah, all Khorne was not a very fun list to play or to play against back then.

Tbh though, old school animosity also wasn't the best fun ever. Any sort of forced movement out of the player's control on their turn made it pretty hard to do well in Fantasy.

 Da Boss wrote:
.

Tbh though, old school animosity also wasn't the best fun ever. Any sort of forced movement out of the player's control on their turn made it pretty hard to do well in Fantasy.

Certainly. I can imagine making a failed Animosity roll result in an interesting choice for the O&G player (for example lose boys but get a bonus/override penalty), but at that time the completely passive, mechanical process of roll dice-consult table-perform compulsory action was the name of the game.

Well Minotaurs certainly get an upgraded Frenzy but in a roundabout way but which is not that complicated. In short if they get double on Primal Fury roll they get Frenzy but which is then modified to give A2 instead of A1 but only pursue D6.

Also, Doombull/Gorebull also gives Frenzy to any unit they joined if they get Frenzied. So Gors could benefit from this.

 Scottywan82 wrote:
One nice thing about the larger bases: I suspect I can reposition the thunderers and quarrelers to actually be aiming forward now instead of holding their weapons at an angle.

I'm looking forward to building an Old World-legal movement tray for my Empire spearmen just so they're easier to rank up - on 20s the first two ranks were a bit of a nightmare and only went together one way. I have a full block of 20 on painted and flocked bases so I figure the easiest way will be just 3D printing or scratchbuilding a tray that has extra 5mm spacers built in.

Looks like some of the AOS rebranding for copyright purposes has leaked into TOW:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AoSLore/comments/190ip6q/malerion_retcon_in_warhammer_the_old_world/

Suppose I can be mildly happy that the fact Dark Elves are 'legacy' means they won't have much of an opportunity to focus on the stupid 'he was the rightful Phoenix King' nonsense from End Times. Also this might be some kind of Astra Militarum/Imperial Guard thing, where he has two names.

 Londinium wrote:
Looks like some of the AOS rebranding for copyright purposes has leaked into TOW:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AoSLore/comments/190ip6q/malerion_retcon_in_warhammer_the_old_world/

Suppose I can be mildly happy that the fact Dark Elves are 'legacy' means they won't have much of an opportunity to focus on the stupid 'he was the rightful Phoenix King' nonsense from End Times. Also this might be some kind of Astra Militarum/Imperial Guard thing, where he has two names.

I'll still call him Malekith, just as Age of Sigmar has Dwarves and Trolls.

Better to be safe than fight Disney.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:
Having seen the army lists reviewed on YT, I dont frankly see what took 4 (5?) Years to develop.

Nothing, this was all done in the past 12 months at most.

Utterly ridiculous if you really think that, when we've been told it takes 2-3 years just to go from designing miniatures to releasing them normally, that they came up with the lore and narrative for a different setting/time period, designed and made multiple brand new miniatures, found and retooled old stuff, figured out what the rules would be, and managed to manufacture all this stock within just 12 months to do all that, at best....

2k will be default size?

So for my dwarfs, six cannons, 2 flame cannons 40 thunderers for 1200 pts, and then some combat lord and some anvil units for the remaining 800?

I figure early on it will be 1K and 1.5K as people build up armies. If your area already has established players with armies then 2K and 2.5K might well be where people gravitate toward.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:
Having seen the army lists reviewed on YT, I dont frankly see what took 4 (5?) Years to develop.

Nothing, this was all done in the past 12 months at most.

Lol. Yet more people who don't know what lead times mean.

Project plan:

Year 1: Panic about the joke an intern posted about the square bases aimed at mantic
Year 2: Show off loads of stuff to do with a computer game
Year 3: Argue with AoS bosses about which mini's they can't use
Year 4: Dig out the old moulds and put together a rulebook based on 8 existing rulebooks

If only I could exalt a post more than once.

I just want to point out for all the apologists in the audience that in the latest article the rules team says "If you want to come on this long-term journey with us, the factions in the Forces of Fantasy and Ravening Hordes books are the ones to collect and play – and we want to be pretty clear about that."

Oh wait but we are missing Kislev and Cathay in that book....so weird......

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:
Having seen the army lists reviewed on YT, I dont frankly see what took 4 (5?) Years to develop.

Nothing, this was all done in the past 12 months at most.

Utterly ridiculous if you really think that, when we've been told it takes 2-3 years just to go from designing miniatures to releasing them normally, that they came up with the lore and narrative for a different setting/time period, designed and made multiple brand new miniatures, found and retooled old stuff, figured out what the rules would be, and managed to manufacture all this stock within just 12 months to do all that, at best....

That's why he's wrong. He just thinks things happen with snap of the finger. Snap and magically books appear out of thin air, moulds are created, sprues cast and distributed.

And never mind all this was done for launch during fall(LI pushed it back) so 12 months is even less GW supposedly had.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:
Having seen the army lists reviewed on YT, I dont frankly see what took 4 (5?) Years to develop.

Nothing, this was all done in the past 12 months at most.

Utterly ridiculous if you really think that, when we've been told it takes 2-3 years just to go from designing miniatures to releasing them normally, that they came up with the lore and narrative for a different setting/time period, designed and made multiple brand new miniatures, found and retooled old stuff, figured out what the rules would be, and managed to manufacture all this stock within just 12 months to do all that, at best....

Yeah seriously. Just because it looks like about 2 months worth of work didn't mean it didn't take 4 years to do. And yes, sitting around waiting for stuff to get mailed to you from a factory, so you can approve it, is a form hard work.

I saw an argument over whether or not you had to use the "correct" table size for games. Is that what we've become now?

 Just Tony wrote:
I saw an argument over whether or not you had to use the "correct" table size for games. Is that what we've become now?

Reliance on official GW and event rules for every little thing about playing with your dudes has killed any creativity or problem-solving amongst a large portion of the general player base. It's a far cry from looking at old GW publications that open with statements like 'these rules are a framework, if you don't like something or want to try something different, go nuts.' I'll be figuring out how to use content from The General's Compendium in my TOW hobbying, it's easily my new favorite GW book after recently discovering it.

Hasn't even been 24 hours since pre-order and already seen multiple articles on it being a failure or that it is such a resounding success it is going to replace AoS. Crazy.

 caladancid wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:
Having seen the army lists reviewed on YT, I dont frankly see what took 4 (5?) Years to develop.

Nothing, this was all done in the past 12 months at most.

Lol. Yet more people who don't know what lead times mean.

Project plan:

Year 1: Panic about the joke an intern posted about the square bases aimed at mantic
Year 2: Show off loads of stuff to do with a computer game
Year 3: Argue with AoS bosses about which mini's they can't use
Year 4: Dig out the old moulds and put together a rulebook based on 8 existing rulebooks

If only I could exalt a post more than once.

I just want to point out for all the apologists in the audience that in the latest article the rules team says "If you want to come on this long-term journey with us, the factions in the Forces of Fantasy and Ravening Hordes books are the ones to collect and play – and we want to be pretty clear about that."

Oh wait but we are missing Kislev and Cathay in that book....so weird......

Kislev and Cathay are literally presented in the core rulebook as major factions/powers.

Just a thought but considering how many people have legacy armies or want a legacy army GW might have paused and gone "hey if we release two brand new armies the first thing our social media will get is bombardment by people with or wanting old armies going nuts over how we've abandoned them"

So it might well be a very tactically sound choice to not release the utterly brand, totally new armies into the "retro nostalgia" game first. Instead push out the door a huge bunch of older models and a few updated sculpts for armies for people who have those armies; or had those armies or wanted those armies. Ergo maximise the popularity by feeding that side of the market first and then when Cathay and Norsca come along BOOM they are able to be new popular things in the game that's selling really well.


Now granted Norsca are not technically a new force, but they had a curious history where they kind of jumped in and out of the Empire book as a subfaction and soforth. So the reworking of them, as presented and as in the video game, is basically all new.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Tony wrote:
I saw an argument over whether or not you had to use the "correct" table size for games. Is that what we've become now?

It's the internet - people will argue over ANYTHING to fill an hour.

Also for some people they want to just know the official line on how things work. Perhaps they want to make a super detailed highly elaborate board and they just want to know the dimensions that will most times work without ending up with a board that isn't functional and such.

Also I've always found it odd how people hold up praise for GW putting "just play stuff how you want" in their rules. You don't need a company to tell you to do whatever the heck you want. You don't pay them £30-50 for a rulebook and then half as much for an army book plus additional stuff to go "eh just do what you feel is right". You pay them and ask them for the formal "here's how it 'should be'". You can then freely accept that or go your own way.

So yes people do want to know the official limits and factors and elements in the game. That's the base-line things work with. Beyond that you can agree or disagree and in the real world many games will happen on all kinds of tablesize. Perhaps defined by fancy boards premade by firms; or just because its the amount of tablespace they've got to play with.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 RustyNumber wrote:
Didn't 8th edition have very complex/specific tournament tweaks to rules and/or listbuilding to "fix" it anyway? Swedish comp was that it? Surely the same will be done for TOW.

Not just 8th, every edition of Fantasy needed aftermarket listbuilding rules.

I remember the comp score packs from 6th Ed. WFB and 3rd/4th Ed. 40K, and I can't seem to find ANYONE who has PDFs of those sheets. I'd sacrifice one of at least 9 nonvital organs to get those.

 Just Tony wrote:
I saw an argument over whether or not you had to use the "correct" table size for games. Is that what we've become now?

Now? Its happened every edition of every game for the last couple decades.