Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors. Pre orders. p.280.

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**Hellebore**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
What are GW doing with AoS replacement kits for old WHFB models that are just separated by time? For example, River Trolls vs Stone Trolls.

River Trolls got a plastic kit before GW killed WHFB. Stone Trolls did not, then became "Rockgut Troggoths" in AoS, and then they got a plastic kit.

Do River Trolls use their plastic kit whereas WHFB Stone Trolls go back to their ancient models?

(By the same token, only the plastic Bloodthirster made the cut-off for WHFB, with the remainder coming out once AoS was underway. Ditto for Be'lakor and his updated mini - what minis will TOW use for these?)

Potentially part of the reason they broke the factions up the way they did? To my eye, Daemons, Skaven and Lizardmen all look exactly the same in AoS as they would in WFB, GW haven't really developed anything unique for them at all, despite the Lizardman refresh offering them that opportunity - the entire Seraphon range looks like it came straight out of WFB.

It seems they focused on those factions that either don't exist in AoS but had an army in WFB (tomb Kings and Bretonnians), or ones that have since had distinct AoS armies built for them so there is less duplication.

As they aren't officially releasing those 7 factions, it doesn't matter if there are technically overlapping units with AoS.

**AllSeeingSkink**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can you find Malekith in mythology?

It can be hard to tell, in the early days GW did draw on mythology or other works but changed the names enough that'd be hard to trace without asking the person who did it. And then other things were just fully made up. Like, Nurgle comes from a Babylonian god Nergal, Khorne comes from a Celtic god Krom/Khram, but Slaanesh and Tzeentch were made up to sound like some breathy erotic sound for the former and the the latter the imagined sound a magic spell might make.

Old school GW folk from the early days were history enthusiasts in addition to general nerdy folk, so it wouldn't surprise me if there's some historic origin for Malekith.

**TalonZahn**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can you find Malekith in mythology?

I don't think directly, but it's GW so you know they lifted it from somewhere.

Fact remains Marvel appearance 1984 and GW Dark Elves appeared in 1987, then his first mention by name was 1992.

There are people that think DUNE was lifted from GW because anything invented before the internet doesn't seem to exist.

**Vulcan**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can you find Malekith in mythology?

I haven't found any, but I'm not exactly an expert either.

**H.B.M.C.**

Vulcan wrote:
I haven't found any, but I'm not exactly an expert either.

Every reference to Malekith I can find comes in one of three flavours:

1. Marvel comics (90% of references).
2. Warhammer (9% of references).
3. "There's no Malekith in Norse Mythology. Dark Elves, yes. Malekith, no." (the remainder).

I think GW made him up. Or were "inspired" by Marvel's Dark Elves in the same way they were "inspired" by Dune and Judge Dread.

**Baragash**

TalonZahn wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can you find Malekith in mythology?

I don't think directly, but it's GW so you know they lifted it from somewhere.

Fact remains Marvel appearance 1984 and GW Dark Elves appeared in 1987, then his first mention by name was 1992.

There are people that think DUNE was lifted from GW because anything invented before the internet doesn't seem to exist.

I think GW naughty elves actually appeared in 1983, but were called Night Elves, and later renamed Dark Elves.

**AllSeeingSkink**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Vulcan wrote:
I haven't found any, but I'm not exactly an expert either.
Every reference to Malekith I can find comes in one of three flavours:

1. Marvel comics (90% of references).
2. Warhammer (9% of references).
3. "There's no Malekith in Norse Mythology. Dark Elves, yes. Malekith, no." (the remainder).

I think GW made him up. Or were "inspired" by Marvel's Dark Elves in the same way they were "inspired" by Dune and Judge Dread.

But did you try a few dozen mispellings of the name?

I think the only reason we know Nurgle = Nergal and Khorne = Crom/Kram/Khram is because Brian Ansell said as much in an interview many years later.

**kodos**

there is no Malekith or anything close/similar in mythology not just by spelling but also as theme (and dark elves in norse mythology are something very different)

more like this is inspired by LotR and Marvel rather than taken from myth

H.B.M.C. wrote:
What are GW doing with AoS replacement kits for old WHFB models that are just separated by time? For example, River Trolls vs Stone Trolls.

River Trolls got a plastic kit before GW killed WHFB. Stone Trolls did not, then became "Rockgut Troggoths" in AoS, and then they got a plastic kit.

Do River Trolls use their plastic kit whereas WHFB Stone Trolls go back to their ancient models?

(By the same token, only the plastic Bloodthirster made the cut-off for WHFB, with the remainder coming out once AoS was underway. Ditto for Be'lakor and his updated mini - what minis will TOW use for these?)

the TOW Promo Pics we got so far (and army pics that are leaked) show the old metal (and plastic) models in place for past 8th Edi plastic updates
be it tree-folk, trolls or infantry

the most intresting part here is that Beastmen have no army pictures in the book

**Mozzamanx**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
What are GW doing with AoS replacement kits for old WHFB models that are just separated by time? For example, River Trolls vs Stone Trolls.

River Trolls got a plastic kit before GW killed WHFB. Stone Trolls did not, then became "Rockgut Troggoths" in AoS, and then they got a plastic kit.

Do River Trolls use their plastic kit whereas WHFB Stone Trolls go back to their ancient models?

(By the same token, only the plastic Bloodthirster made the cut-off for WHFB, with the remainder coming out once AoS was underway. Ditto for Be'lakor and his updated mini - what minis will TOW use for these?)

My guess is that both Trolls will revert back to their 6E metals because the plastics are now considered AoS models. Similarly I think the 7E Common Troll metals will probably come back.
The Bloodthirster and Belakor probably won't appear at all outside of a stat block. There's no official model because they're not part of the core game.

As always, Beastmen are the outlier and I think the rumours of being ported out of AoS are probably true now.

**Gert**

I've seen someone put the plastic trolls on squares alongside the updated Squig Hoppers and they both looked fine.

**MaxT**

I’d consider Belakor a special char and we know there isn’t any of those in the 2 army books, so the chances of him being in the daemon pdf is just about zero.

There are daemon princes in the Chaos Warrior list and almost certainly in the daemon pdf too. So thats an option for peeps to use the model. Just not as “Belakor”.

**Manfred von Drakken**

MaxT wrote:
I’d consider Belakor a special char and we know there isn’t any of those in the 2 army books, so the chances of him being in the daemon pdf is just about zero.

There are daemon princes in the Chaos Warrior list and almost certainly in the daemon pdf too. So thats an option for peeps to use the model. Just not as “Belakor”.

If I had to guess, we'll see entries for the four generic greater daemons based off their current models when the daemons PDF drops. I'm not expecting any named daemons at all.

**Tyel**

I think trolls are a bit weird.

Bringing back to old sculpts on a permanent basis seems weird when there are essentially 1:1 replacements. See also old squig hoppers etc.

But those models are also classic. They'd probably sell. Certainly more than Ushabti I'd have thought.

**Fayric**

And what about chaos warriors, is there an option for "Lord on Karkadrak" for example?
Is there pics of the new range in the evil book, or will they bring back the "nostalgia" models of 2021

**chaos0xomega**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
What are GW doing with AoS replacement kits for old WHFB models that are just separated by time? For example, River Trolls vs Stone Trolls.

River Trolls got a plastic kit before GW killed WHFB. Stone Trolls did not, then became "Rockgut Troggoths" in AoS, and then they got a plastic kit.

Do River Trolls use their plastic kit whereas WHFB Stone Trolls go back to their ancient models?

(By the same token, only the plastic Bloodthirster made the cut-off for WHFB, with the remainder coming out once AoS was underway. Ditto for Be'lakor and his updated mini - what minis will TOW use for these?)

There are no Greater Daemons in TOW, so moot point on the bloodthirster. If you're using the legacy army list then.... kinda who cares? Use whatever mini you want that will fit on the specified base.

River trolls would presumably make their way back into WHFB (tbh I expect them to be cut from AoS next go round, the models have been direct only for ages and GW almost never feature them in photography and never feature them in bundles or anything. Theyre kinda just there), Stone Trolls go back to their old minis (just like how the Warriors of Chaos army shot uses all the old sculpts).

**Santtu**

Tyel wrote:

But those models are also classic. They'd probably sell. Certainly more than Ushabti I'd have thought.

Ushabti are 22.50€ per model right now, Stone Trolls were sold for 20€ before they were discontinued. I'd happily pay 22.50€ for them, but GW might only bring back three of the six sculpts, like they left out the alligator-headed Ushabti.

**chaos0xomega**

Fayric wrote:
And what about chaos warriors, is there an option for "Lord on Karkadrak" for example?
Is there pics of the new range in the evil book, or will they bring back the "nostalgia" models of 2021

No. They were very explicit that models released for factions in Age of Sigmar would not have rules in TOW.

**H.B.M.C.**

Squighoppers get lances though, which I'm sure were just an AoS thing.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Stone Trolls go back to their old minis (just like how the Warriors of Chaos army shot uses all the old sculpts).

That's so mind numbingly dumb/stubborn.

**BertBert**

AoS trolls fit 40mm bases just fine, so you can always just use those if you like them better.

**The Black Adder**

For those wanting the old models, it's great if they make a return. But, so long as you can fit the AoS models on the relevant old world base, I wouldn't worry about what's pictured in the book. The rules for Warhammer fantasy never cared what models you used. Just use the models you like.

**MaxT**

Tyel wrote:
I think trolls are a bit weird.

Bringing back to old sculpts on a permanent basis seems weird when there are essentially 1:1 replacements. See also old squig hoppers etc.

But those models are also classic. They'd probably sell. Certainly more than Ushabti I'd have thought.

They could split the difference - bring the classic trolls back as Made To Order and not a regular direct stock item. Allows GW to show them in imagery, lets peeps buy them but doesn’t add effectively a duplicate SKU to the GW store.

**lord_blackfang**

Santtu wrote:
Ushabti are 22.50€ per model right now, Stone Trolls were sold for 20€ before they were discontinued. I'd happily pay 22.50€ for them, but GW might only bring back three of the six sculpts, like they left out the alligator-headed Ushabti.

Oh what the heck GW, that's the best one. I never got one at the FLGS when they came in random blisters.

**The Phazer**

I can't see anyone using the metal trolls over just rebasing the AOS plastics to be honest. There's a LOT of Orc and Goblin kits to bring back and it just doesn't seem a great use of a slot.

**lord_blackfang**

GW might still do it, and Oldhammer weirdos will snap them up. But yes, the vast majority will use the plastics.

**Luke82**

I’ve got six of the classic stone trolls so they’d have to be cheap (ha!) for me to spring for anymore, but I’d pick them over the new troggoths personally.

Edit; I must be an Oldhammer weirdo.

**Scottywan82**

The Phazer wrote:
I can't see anyone using the metal trolls over just rebasing the AOS plastics to be honest. There's a LOT of Orc and Goblin kits to bring back and it just doesn't seem a great use of a slot.

Me either. They're the same models. Why would someone not use the plastic kit?

**GenericLordOnPegasus**

RaptorusRex wrote:
GenericLordOnPegasus wrote:
Man, the negativity here, on top of the outright nonsense being spouted (low effort game, less than a year, whaaaaaaa things are expensive) is absolutely ridiculous.

The ruleset is fantastic. If you wanted a streamlined ruleset, they literally already have games for you. Both AOS and 10th edition 40k couldn’t be simpler. The rest of us actually wanted Warhammer Fantasy, and that’s what we got.

The seven factions that are “legacy” are literally all available to buy, whether original models or updated scults, and who gives a gak what GW says? TO’s will do what needs to be done just as we have for literally decades now to ensure they are playable.

This is a specialist game made by a small team. The game has been in play testing for over a year now, and after having seen people go through the rulebook, it seems like they did a great job fixing a lot of the problems WHFB had at the end of its life.

Almost everything is sold out everywhere, so people saying we don’t know idf launch was a success are being ridiculous. Selling out is the definition of success, and everyone I know was able to get everything they wanted except for the resin models that seem to have been delayed in America for whatever reason. Stuff happens.

The hilarious thing is that those who aren’t happy seem to feel the need to scream about it as loudly as possible. Not happy? Don’t play. The rest of us will be having a blast playing the game we love with the models we want to play it with.

And the people who don’t like old sculpts realize there are dozens of STL’s online, and even if they don’t have a printer, I guarantee all but the smallest towns now have a printing service. Seriously, every single fantasy army has beautiful models out there you can buy and use. Nobody is holding s gun to your head and making you play GW models. Except for GW’s own events, I have never seen a TO stop anyone from playing 3rd party models.

The ruleset looks great. The FoF/RH are great indexes, and the Arcane Journals are completely unnecessary. Otherwise, MM/MWG have said the Legacy PDF factions are just as fleshed out as the official factions, and that they are very playable.

Also, making models is expensive. I don’t know why people think old sculpts should be cheaper because they aren’t new? They take the same manpower, time, storage, and shipping costs (more in the case of metal). Saying otherwise is the dumb opinion of people who have never run a business and don’t understand the costs associated with production and retail.

Some of you really need some joy in your lives.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Astmeister wrote:
Again the Tomb Guard models are effectively cheaper than they were when released first 10-12 years ago.

They were 32,50 Euro for 10
Now they are 60 Euro for 20

And the Ushabti are now triple the price. What's your point?

Yes, because working with and shipping metal is far more expensive than it was in 2003. Smaller production runs also increase costs. I’m sorry simple business realities escape you?

I agree, but this is an awfully confrontational first post.

You aren’t wrong, but I felt it needed to be said.

Not actually my first post, I just couldn’t get my password for my old one because I no longer work at the place where the email was associated (and don’t remember my previous name either).

**Vorian**

Have the old river trolls been shown?

I know the old stone trolls have been - which makes sense as the new ones are different - but the plastic river trolls will surely be used in TOW

**Platuan4th**

MaxT wrote:
I’d consider Belakor a special char and we know there isn’t any of those in the 2 army books, so the chances of him being in the daemon pdf is just about zero.

There are daemon princes in the Chaos Warrior list and almost certainly in the daemon pdf too. So thats an option for peeps to use the model. Just not as “Belakor”.

On top of this, at this point in history, Belakor is still in the process of freeing himself from the position he's trapped in by the Chaos gods and unable to physically manifest in the Old World.

Either that, or he's trapped in Mordheim as the Shadowlord possessing the body of Kharduun.

**Not Online!!!**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Squighoppers get lances though, which I'm sure were just an AoS thing.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Stone Trolls go back to their old minis (just like how the Warriors of Chaos army shot uses all the old sculpts).
That's so mind numbingly dumb/stubborn.

The trolls i agree, on the infantry and cav i do not. Old school chaos warriors look better.