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And therein lies the problem for all of the non-Codex Marines; all of their detachments will likely be measured against the Gladius, because the Gladius is just so efficient at just about everything. Black Templars have an excellent index detachment and yet they still often just take the Gladius instead. Nearly every list I can theorycraft for my Dark Angels would work better if it was in a Gladius. The trick is finding some trick or gimmick that the Gladius just can't do, but it does so much so well. At least with the Inner Circle detachment we can get a turn 1 deep strike on some Terminators, and that's potentially scary strong. Plus the wound reroll strat potentially makes Sternguard stronger in the IC detachment than they would ever be in the Gladius because it allows them to fish for Dev Wounds. The Sternguard thing is kind of niche, but that's the kind of thing we need to find, and sadly the DA detachments, particularly the Unforgiven Task Force, just don't do enough better.

Ultimately we still need the updated points (ffs GW just give them to us already, we've waited long enough dammit!) to know exactly where our Dark Angels are going to be sitting as far as competitive play, but so far it looks like we should just play the Gladius in tournaments. The Ironstorm might still be worth a look for all the treadheads out there (pity the Redemptor went up in points for no damn reason), but it's probably not as consistent as the Gladius.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
And therein lies the problem for all of the non-Codex Marines; all of their detachments will likely be measured against the Gladius, because the Gladius is just so efficient at just about everything. Black Templars have an excellent index detachment and yet they still often just take the Gladius instead. Nearly every list I can theorycraft for my Dark Angels would work better if it was in a Gladius. The trick is finding some trick or gimmick that the Gladius just can't do, but it does so much so well. At least with the Inner Circle detachment we can get a turn 1 deep strike on some Terminators, and that's potentially scary strong. Plus the wound reroll strat potentially makes Sternguard stronger in the IC detachment than they would ever be in the Gladius because it allows them to fish for Dev Wounds. The Sternguard thing is kind of niche, but that's the kind of thing we need to find, and sadly the DA detachments, particularly the Unforgiven Task Force, just don't do enough better.

Ultimately we still need the updated points (ffs GW just give them to us already, we've waited long enough dammit!) to know exactly where our Dark Angels are going to be sitting as far as competitive play, but so far it looks like we should just play the Gladius in tournaments. The Ironstorm might still be worth a look for all the treadheads out there (pity the Redemptor went up in points for no damn reason), but it's probably not as consistent as the Gladius.

I think that Sternguard only have Devastating Wounds on their ranged weapons, and the Inner Circle stratagem that allows Wound re-rolls is only in the Fight Phase. But you are right, we need to somehow find little tricks to make the DA detachments relevant. Now, if all this just means that we run DA units in Gladius the sun will still come up in the morning. Some of our stuff really sings in Gladius.

A lot of folks were excited about Deathwing characters giving their attached unit the Deathwing keyword, like Azrael with Hellblasters, to benefit from the Vowed Objective bit. I thought that was cool as well, but who is going to put a tough taret on an objective with that unit in range? That interaction, though, does allow Hellblasters with Azrael to use Unmatched Fortitude to have "baby Transhuman." I have found that the worst threat to Hellblasters are weapons with high rate of fire, Strength 5 to 8 and Damage 2 or 3 (like Exocrines, Tau plasma and those Knight cannons). Being able to pop that Stratagem could save a few models, which could give another turn of quality shooting for the unit. Azrael and a Lieutenant in an Inner Circle can achieve most of the goodness of the Gladius Fire Discipline piece with a bit more durability.

Some edge cases we have are things like Bladeguard with the "Bladeguard Captain" attached (the Captain with the Relic Shield that can be attached to Bladeguard). He is not Deathwing during list construction so no enhancements, but he would suddenly have that keyword when he joints the Bladeguard. Then his Finest Hour has nine attacks with Devastating Wounds with access to re-rolls (either 1s or all if its on the Vowed Objective). Its a reach, but its something...Terminator Assalt Squad with Thunderhammers? Could really put the hurt on something that relies on Invul saves with that Inner Circle Martial Mastery stratagem. So that is something.

We do need to wait for points before making any pronouncements on unit power/viability.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
And therein lies the problem for all of the non-Codex Marines; all of their detachments will likely be measured against the Gladius, because the Gladius is just so efficient at just about everything. Black Templars have an excellent index detachment and yet they still often just take the Gladius instead. Nearly every list I can theorycraft for my Dark Angels would work better if it was in a Gladius. The trick is finding some trick or gimmick that the Gladius just can't do, but it does so much so well. At least with the Inner Circle detachment we can get a turn 1 deep strike on some Terminators, and that's potentially scary strong. Plus the wound reroll strat potentially makes Sternguard stronger in the IC detachment than they would ever be in the Gladius because it allows them to fish for Dev Wounds. The Sternguard thing is kind of niche, but that's the kind of thing we need to find, and sadly the DA detachments, particularly the Unforgiven Task Force, just don't do enough better.

Ultimately we still need the updated points (ffs GW just give them to us already, we've waited long enough dammit!) to know exactly where our Dark Angels are going to be sitting as far as competitive play, but so far it looks like we should just play the Gladius in tournaments. The Ironstorm might still be worth a look for all the treadheads out there (pity the Redemptor went up in points for no damn reason), but it's probably not as consistent as the Gladius.

I think that Sternguard only have Devastating Wounds on their ranged weapons, and the Inner Circle stratagem that allows Wound re-rolls is only in the Fight Phase. But you are right, we need to somehow find little tricks to make the DA detachments relevant. Now, if all this just means that we run DA units in Gladius the sun will still come up in the morning. Some of our stuff really sings in Gladius.

A lot of folks were excited about Deathwing characters giving their attached unit the Deathwing keyword, like Azrael with Hellblasters, to benefit from the Vowed Objective bit. I thought that was cool as well, but who is going to put a tough taret on an objective with that unit in range? That interaction, though, does allow Hellblasters with Azrael to use Unmatched Fortitude to have "baby Transhuman." I have found that the worst threat to Hellblasters are weapons with high rate of fire, Strength 5 to 8 and Damage 2 or 3 (like Exocrines, Tau plasma and those Knight cannons). Being able to pop that Stratagem could save a few models, which could give another turn of quality shooting for the unit. Azrael and a Lieutenant in an Inner Circle can achieve most of the goodness of the Gladius Fire Discipline piece with a bit more durability.

Some edge cases we have are things like Bladeguard with the "Bladeguard Captain" attached (the Captain with the Relic Shield that can be attached to Bladeguard). He is not Deathwing during list construction so no enhancements, but he would suddenly have that keyword when he joints the Bladeguard. Then his Finest Hour has nine attacks with Devastating Wounds with access to re-rolls (either 1s or all if its on the Vowed Objective). Its a reach, but its something...Terminator Assalt Squad with Thunderhammers? Could really put the hurt on something that relies on Invul saves with that Inner Circle Martial Mastery stratagem. So that is something.

We do need to wait for points before making any pronouncements on unit power/viability.

Vowed gives a bonus to wound, not rerolls just to clarify - I think you were mixing Martial Mastery and Vowed Objective and probably missed part of that in an edit but for those reading - you'd get the reroll to hit from OOM, and a bonus to wound from Vowed Objective.

Next a question: Why do people keep saying we need the points? They're in the book? Sure I absolutely expect a FAQ/Errata and potential points update to drop the same day the book officially releases, but we've got a ballpark to play in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
And therein lies the problem for all of the non-Codex Marines; all of their detachments will likely be measured against the Gladius, because the Gladius is just so efficient at just about everything. Black Templars have an excellent index detachment and yet they still often just take the Gladius instead. Nearly every list I can theorycraft for my Dark Angels would work better if it was in a Gladius. The trick is finding some trick or gimmick that the Gladius just can't do, but it does so much so well. At least with the Inner Circle detachment we can get a turn 1 deep strike on some Terminators, and that's potentially scary strong. Plus the wound reroll strat potentially makes Sternguard stronger in the IC detachment than they would ever be in the Gladius because it allows them to fish for Dev Wounds. The Sternguard thing is kind of niche, but that's the kind of thing we need to find, and sadly the DA detachments, particularly the Unforgiven Task Force, just don't do enough better.

Ultimately we still need the updated points (ffs GW just give them to us already, we've waited long enough dammit!) to know exactly where our Dark Angels are going to be sitting as far as competitive play, but so far it looks like we should just play the Gladius in tournaments. The Ironstorm might still be worth a look for all the treadheads out there (pity the Redemptor went up in points for no damn reason), but it's probably not as consistent as the Gladius.

My DA will probably live in Gladius because my DA is RW+DW with no- or next-to-no- Greenwing, and they didn't make a 1+2 Det. Gladius works for everything because its the generic X Det with the least ammount of X+Y or X+Y+Z qualifiers i.e. Adeptus Astartes instead of Adeptus Astartes Deathwing Terminators. So in Gladius the strats can hit the bikes and the Terminators.

Edit to Add: That's just one example of the current problem with Theme Dets in current SM lineups - they don't have the depth to do the theme Dets. Especially in the HQ area.

@Breton,

Was that post aimed at me? The quotes can get out of control. Vowed Objective will certainly allow Hellblasters with a Deathwing Character attached to have the +1 to Wound on the Vowed Objective. Martial Mastery is indeed only for the Fight Phase.

The Deathwing Knights points in the book are so high I think we really need to see the MFM. Inner Circle Companions at 105 points will not see the tabletop in this MFM economy.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
@Breton,

Was that post aimed at me? The quotes can get out of control. Vowed Objective will certainly allow Hellblasters with a Deathwing Character attached to have the +1 to Wound on the Vowed Objective. Martial Mastery is indeed only for the Fight Phase.

The Deathwing Knights points in the book are so high I think we really need to see the MFM. Inner Circle Companions at 105 points will not see the tabletop in this MFM economy.

It was this part:

He is not Deathwing during list construction so no enhancements, but he would suddenly have that keyword when he joints the Bladeguard. Then his Finest Hour has nine attacks with Devastating Wounds with access to re-rolls (either 1s or all if its on the Vowed Objective).

I'm assuming edit/Freudian Slip type of thing -


I think Inner Circle Companions will get limited play, but they'll still see the tabletop here and there. Azrael and/or a Power Armor Libby can both join them and fit together well by giving them the 4++ ICC don't have but BGV do. That said, they're a touch more expensive than BGV so yeah a price drop equal to them seems in order- but the difference isn't so large as to put them on the dust shelf when you can avoid doubling up on the 4++ to get (X=Something Else and the 4++). They're basically the same unit coming from opposite directions. BGV start with 4++ and need a character to give them -1 to get hit (or whatever) ICC start with the -1 to get hit, but need a character to give them the 4++. ICC get both of their abilities while BGV have to choose one - but starting with the 4++ makes them more versatile than needing to get the 4++ secondarily. They're mostly a wash.

Martial Mastery grants Wound rerolls of 1 for Deathwing Infantry units in the Fight phase. It grants full Wound rerolls if the unit is in range of the Vowed Objective.

It’s a good Strat since wound rerolls are so few and far between. So a Finest Hour Captain attached to Bladeguard could fish for 6s with that Strat.

I fear that Inner Circle Companions will need to be cheap to be other than a flavour choice in a list. Otherwise just take Bladeguard.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Martial Mastery grants Wound rerolls of 1 for Deathwing Infantry units in the Fight phase. It grants full Wound rerolls if the unit is in range of the Vowed Objective.

It’s a good Strat since wound rerolls are so few and far between. So a Finest Hour Captain attached to Bladeguard could fish for 6s with that Strat.

I fear that Inner Circle Companions will need to be cheap to be other than a flavour choice in a list. Otherwise just take Bladeguard.

Azrael with Bladeguard wastes the 4++.

Azrael with ICC gets you 4++, -1 to get hit, +1 to hit vs Characters, SH1 (so go Strike instead of Sweep), and the ability to add an Apothecary instead of a Lieutenant.

You can do similar with a Libby (but can't add a second leader)

I do similar but less with Tiggy and BGV in my UM.

Its also something of a wash with the Azrael + Hellblaster bomb. 20 wounds vs 18, 20 ranged vs 6 pistol and 24 close combat attacks. 20ish point difference.

I find that the big Hellblaster Squad can take on most targets and has a great threat range. The ICC have to rely on the Fight phase.

The big problem for me looking at ICC is their AP -1. They will struggle against many opponents. They have one more Strength than BGV, but those Bladeguard are still at Str 5 so its not like they can't wound infantry. AP-2 is just so much better. With Gladius you can get extra AP, but so could the Bladeguard to really take down armoured foes. For 15 points less at the book value.

The ICC will shine, though, into hordes with Sustained Hits 2, Str 6 and AP-1. I think, though, that 105 or 210 points is a little steep to have a chaff-clearing unit.

Yeah, the AP-1 is what kills the companions competitively unless they are stupid cheap. If they are the same exact cost as Bladeguard they might be worth a look in the Gladius, and they are an interesting alternative to the Company Heroes (which Azrael and Lazarus can no longer join, single tear). Personally I don't think I'd run Azrael with them; I want him with Hellblasters as I think they can affect the game more being a ranged unit. The Libby is a good idea for the 4++ though, or maybe even Ezekiel for the extra attacks.

Speaking of Azrael and Hellblasters, that combo is one that I would call evergreen (and not just because of the color of their armor ). Seriously, put that unit in just about any Marine detachment and it'll do well, even the bad ones, as it really doesn't need a huge amount of stratagem support. In detachments like the Ironstorm, the only drawback of AzzyBlasters (I shall call that unit that from now on) is the opportunity cost of not taking a more "thematic" choice that does have stratagem support (like vehicles in the Ironstorm).

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I find that the big Hellblaster Squad can take on most targets and has a great threat range. The ICC have to rely on the Fight phase.

The big problem for me looking at ICC is their AP -1. They will struggle against many opponents. They have one more Strength than BGV, but those Bladeguard are still at Str 5 so its not like they can't wound infantry. AP-2 is just so much better. With Gladius you can get extra AP, but so could the Bladeguard to really take down armoured foes. For 15 points less at the book value.

The ICC will shine, though, into hordes with Sustained Hits 2, Str 6 and AP-1. I think, though, that 105 or 210 points is a little steep to have a chaff-clearing unit.

Hailstrikes are cheap, and fit well with Dark Angels. I'd still be in Gladius because the DA Dets don't merge Deathwing and Ravenwing well - but I can easily see Azrael + ICC, some RW bikes and speeders, maybe some Terminators. I think most people stick with the Hellblaster bomb, but I also think a few people switch it up. And I think they get a price drop to give-or-take-5 from BGV.

New Goonhammer Competitive Innovations has an interesting Dark Angels build featured in it: https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-10th-silver-tide-pt-1/

Basically it's an Ironstorm build with the only DA-specific things being Azrael and a Darkshroud. This is a build that will still work even with the changes in the codex; this list would only have to change what Azrael runs with as he won't be able to go with Company Heroes anymore. I kind of like the idea of a Stormraven as a tactical nuke for something you really want dead.

Anyone know how to get the App to show the new 10th DA Supplement with the code or do I need to wait till "x" date for it to work?

I put in the code and it went through but its not updating in the app.

 Rogzor87 wrote:
Anyone know how to get the App to show the new 10th DA Supplement with the code or do I need to wait till "x" date for it to work?

I put in the code and it went through but its not updating in the app.

I read we need to wait until the DA codex wide release, then our codes will work.

However, mine would not accept the code when I first tried to upload it when it was first released.

Sarigar wrote:

 Rogzor87 wrote:
Anyone know how to get the App to show the new 10th DA Supplement with the code or do I need to wait till "x" date for it to work?

I put in the code and it went through but its not updating in the app.

I read we need to wait until the DA codex wide release, then our codes will work.

However, mine would not accept the code when I first tried to upload it when it was first released.

My code didn't work when Deathwing Assault delivered, but it did work after the codex itself went on Pre-order. With that said the app doesn't recognize it,

I went back and input the code again. It accepted it and I received an email confirmation of the new upload.

However, it will not update on the app at this time.

Kinda wish GW was a bit more open about this. I never saw anything from GW about delayed app updates if a codex arrived before wide release via a boxset such as DW.

Any advice/suggestion on how to load up DW termies?

I have 20 Terminators, 2 plasma cannons, 3 cyclone missle launchers and 4 assault cannons. All still NoS(10 from the DW assault box, 5 from Terminator box, 5 from Leviathan box). I'll probably mix in 1-2 chainfist per unit.

I built the ones I got in the Deathwing Assault box with plasma only because I've got some of the old ones with CMLs. Personally I think the CMLs are probably the way to go as far as a good TAC option. And my plan is to run Chainfists at 2 per 5 dudes.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I built the ones I got in the Deathwing Assault box with plasma only because I've got some of the old ones with CMLs. Personally I think the CMLs are probably the way to go as far as a good TAC option. And my plan is to run Chainfists at 2 per 5 dudes.

That's what I did, and I assume what most will do. 5 Guys, toss the Sergeant, split the other two. I made sure the Cyclone and AC guys both got the Chainfist, and 2x1 regular guys got the Power Fist so the Heavy Weapon guy I'm going to pull "last" has the Chainfist so I don't have to pick between the Cyclone or the Chain Fist with a Landraider bearing down on me but yeah.

New points for DA are up now:https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/5uaNFQa5XmuQLzmK.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1s0CROEkcoLfTLPthf3yt5WJBorvKKsM9YCjnVCGymPJC--L8-kvGkbvI

Most of them stayed the same as the current MFM, meaning Lion in his nerfed state is completely unusable competitively and Deathwing Knights are iffy, although perhaps okay. Inner Circle Companions were one of the big question marks, and they are 35ppm so probably not a great choice considering Bladeguard are only 30ppm and have AP-2 on their weapons. The other big question was the Ravenwing Command Squad since it's been completely reworked, and it's 130 for the three models, which might be okay for what they do? On the enhancement side, the exciting one for the Inner Circle detachment is Deathwing Assault, and that one is 30 points. Yowch. Most of the others are fine, costwise.

Overall I think DA are going to be okay, even if we are mostly running the Codex: SM detachments. Based on today's Goonhammer article, it looks like one of our better builds is Ironstorm with Azrael, a Darkshroud, 3 Redemptors, and 1-2 Stormravens, plus smaller pieces to taste. I'm still brainstorming ideas for good ways for DA to make use of all the detachments, including the vanilla ones and our own.

Deathwing Knights should still be playable at these points. Inner Circle Companions are indeed not priced to move in an ecosystem with Bladeguard being cheaper.

So not a disaster. But not salvation either.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Deathwing Knights should still be playable at these points. Inner Circle Companions are indeed not priced to move in an ecosystem with Bladeguard being cheaper.

So not a disaster. But not salvation either.

I still disagree - I still think One unit of ICC can do something Bladeguard can't by hopping in with Azrael (potentially and an Apothecary). Apothecary can't join BGV, but they can join ICC - and 4++, Resurrectable is pretty rare. Toss in the -1 to hit synergy with Azrael's 4++. I think when you get past that first unit of ICC, you run into problems. After that your best choice is a regular libby (which then precludes secondary leaders) and meh. At that point you're better off getting BGV with a something. The Deathwing Knights are also definitely playable, but they can't do it alone. Its possible to make an all Ravenwing/biker army - they're OC2 +1 to 3, have a 5++, Anti-Almost-Everything on the charge, oodles of Plasma, etc. But the Deathwing Knights still make a slightly better anvil for the Ravenguard to hammer against - though its even less than already mentioned because the Ravenwing can also have a ressurecting medic.

But still, the lack of change is not especially inspiring.

Art of War 40k just did a live stream where they fix lists and one of them was Dark Angels. Interestingly it was a Gladius list with a bunch of Black Knights and a RWCS with Fire Discipline. I gotta say, I wouldn't have thought of Fire Discipline on that unit, but it could actually be nifty.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Art of War 40k just did a live stream where they fix lists and one of them was Dark Angels. Interestingly it was a Gladius list with a bunch of Black Knights and a RWCS with Fire Discipline. I gotta say, I wouldn't have thought of Fire Discipline on that unit, but it could actually be nifty.

That would be some great firepower, especially at 9” and under. Keep the unit in Devastator Doctrine for a CP each turn for greater mobility and potential use of the Strat to boost AP and ignore cover.

Dusting off an old profile since I haven't played since like 6th and am totally lost on things like doctrines and stratagems but I just picked up the Deathwing box and figure this is a good place to ask for advice on how I should expect to expand that into a full list.

My first assumption is land raiders to carry them around and another character or two, from there I don't know how if I'm sitting on the bulk of a list or still just the start of one. I'm not too fussed on specifics of weapon loadouts when building them but are there any pitfalls to be aware of?

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Art of War 40k just did a live stream where they fix lists and one of them was Dark Angels. Interestingly it was a Gladius list with a bunch of Black Knights and a RWCS with Fire Discipline. I gotta say, I wouldn't have thought of Fire Discipline on that unit, but it could actually be nifty.

That would be some great firepower, especially at 9” and under. Keep the unit in Devastator Doctrine for a CP each turn for greater mobility and potential use of the Strat to boost AP and ignore cover.

Its not bad, though its still at times less than the "Gold Standard" Depending on what you're shooting at. 6 Aggressors, plus Bioliogis, plus some sort of Captain/Chapter Master is more than 40 shots, Lethal and Sustained Hits 1 on 5+'s. This squad gets you 9 models - 2 shots, 3 with Rapid Fire, and the qualtiy of the shots go way up, you still have Sustained Hits, but lose Lethal Hits. Additionally you're using up 2CP per turn instead of 1 (1CP for both units gets you into Dev Doctrine, the Captain-whatever in the Aggressors can potentially freebie the Storm of Fire) but you can't freebie strats onto bikes.

Assume 42 shots for the Aggressors unit (which is low but also easy math) 7 of each D6 results means 14 crits, 14 wounds, 14 exploding hits (5's and 6's)- and another 14 hits (3's and 4's also fudged for 2+ to Hit Captains and easy math) means 28 To Wounds, and 14 Wounds. Call if 50/50 S4 vs T4: 28 wounds to save, call it a 50/50 to save (3+ Save -1 from the strat) 14 damage = 7ish dead MEQ, 2+ish dead Terminators
27 shots (2+ the easily reached Rapid Fire Range) 1/3 miss. 1/3 hit, 1/3 crit hit so 9 miss, 9 hit, 9 crit = 18 hits no auto wounds - 27 hits S8 HAZARDOUS vs T4 5/6 wound - 22.5 woundings, 45 damage. 22.5 dead marines very overkill, vs T5 Terminators. 15 woundings vs Terminators and/or Gravis - 7.5 - 15 damage vs Terminators 7.5ish dead Terminators. + more if Gravis.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Dusting off an old profile since I haven't played since like 6th and am totally lost on things like doctrines and stratagems but I just picked up the Deathwing box and figure this is a good place to ask for advice on how I should expect to expand that into a full list.

My first assumption is land raiders to carry them around and another character or two, from there I don't know how if I'm sitting on the bulk of a list or still just the start of one. I'm not too fussed on specifics of weapon loadouts when building them but are there any pitfalls to be aware of?

The Deathwing Assault box gives you a decent start for a Dark Angels army. You could use everything in the box as the core. Go for Cyclone Missile Launchers. Belial can be him or cosplay as a Captain in Terminator Armour. After that, I would add some cheap utility units like Scouts. Two squads (or three) allow you to control (to some extent) no-man's land during deployment and can do all sorts of things during the game. I might add a Gladiator Lancer or two as anti-tank units, although Redemptor Dreadnoughts are also good. Land Raiders are actually OK in 10th Ed. If you already have one or two then go ahead and roll them out of the hangar and onto the field. The flight stands will make you rage, but an Inceptor Squad will do wonders in-game.

Pitfalls? I think that all-Terminator could be a pitfall. You need some utility troops in 10th Ed to score points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Art of War 40k just did a live stream where they fix lists and one of them was Dark Angels. Interestingly it was a Gladius list with a bunch of Black Knights and a RWCS with Fire Discipline. I gotta say, I wouldn't have thought of Fire Discipline on that unit, but it could actually be nifty.

That would be some great firepower, especially at 9” and under. Keep the unit in Devastator Doctrine for a CP each turn for greater mobility and potential use of the Strat to boost AP and ignore cover.

Its not bad, though its still at times less than the "Gold Standard" Depending on what you're shooting at. 6 Aggressors, plus Bioliogis, plus some sort of Captain/Chapter Master is more than 40 shots, Lethal and Sustained Hits 1 on 5+'s. This squad gets you 9 models - 2 shots, 3 with Rapid Fire, and the qualtiy of the shots go way up, you still have Sustained Hits, but lose Lethal Hits. Additionally you're using up 2CP per turn instead of 1 (1CP for both units gets you into Dev Doctrine, the Captain-whatever in the Aggressors can potentially freebie the Storm of Fire) but you can't freebie strats onto bikes.

Assume 42 shots for the Aggressors unit (which is low but also easy math) 7 of each D6 results means 14 crits, 14 wounds, 14 exploding hits (5's and 6's)- and another 14 hits (3's and 4's also fudged for 2+ to Hit Captains and easy math) means 28 To Wounds, and 14 Wounds. Call if 50/50 S4 vs T4: 28 wounds to save, call it a 50/50 to save (3+ Save -1 from the strat) 14 damage = 7ish dead MEQ, 2+ish dead Terminators
27 shots (2+ the easily reached Rapid Fire Range) 1/3 miss. 1/3 hit, 1/3 crit hit so 9 miss, 9 hit, 9 crit = 18 hits no auto wounds - 27 hits S8 HAZARDOUS vs T4 5/6 wound - 22.5 woundings, 45 damage. 22.5 dead marines very overkill, vs T5 Terminators. 15 woundings vs Terminators and/or Gravis - 7.5 - 15 damage vs Terminators 7.5ish dead Terminators. + more if Gravis.

Never tell me the odds.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Dusting off an old profile since I haven't played since like 6th and am totally lost on things like doctrines and stratagems but I just picked up the Deathwing box and figure this is a good place to ask for advice on how I should expect to expand that into a full list.

My first assumption is land raiders to carry them around and another character or two, from there I don't know how if I'm sitting on the bulk of a list or still just the start of one. I'm not too fussed on specifics of weapon loadouts when building them but are there any pitfalls to be aware of?

The Deathwing box gets you a decent start:

5 Deathwing Knights
5 Deathwing Terminator Squad (With Cyclone to start)
5 (Core Space Marines Book) Terminator Squad with Cyclone, and a power fist on the Sergeant

is what I did. At that point that second set of 5 Terminators can be their own squad, or the second 5 Deathwing Terminators for 10 total - with the only "bits" difference being Sgt Crux'es on the leader of the second five (Previously called the Veteran) I picked up two so I could do it twice, and the second time I did Assault Canons. I also mixed and matched Chain Fists. The Heavy Weapon Guys all got Chain Fists as the "generally last to be picked up" along with the Sergeant who had a power sword or power fist. then the other 6 guys out of the 10 had split Power/Chain Fists. So each 10 had Sgt with sword, Heavy Guy with Chain Fist, (Second Sgt with Fist), Heavy Guy with Chain Fist, then 3 Chain Fists and 3 Power Fists out of the 10. The Deathwing Terminator Squad lost its mixed weapons AND didn't get the Power Fist on Sergeant the basic Terminator Squad did, but that's not horrible to OK.

The most obvious/easiest thing to do for most people appears to be mixing and matching Deathwing, Ravenwing, and just a smattering of Greenwing (basically Azrael and his magic Squad of Hellblasters or Inner Circle Champions depending on your particular preference) in a Gladius Detachment.

At this point I'm going to take a second to catch you up so we're on the same page:

First: Dark Angels are now basically a supplement army that uses the core Space Marine Codex as its base, then adds a few units and characters from an additional Supplement (Codex: Dark Angels). So at this point you can take anything in the main book, and add anything from the Codex Supplement - which includes your named characters now called Epic Heroes, and what people call bespoke units i.e. Ravenwing Black Knights, Deathwing Knights, Dark Talons, and so on.

Next: Armies are made by picking one Detachment (And Dark Angels can take any Detachment from their own book, or the core book) and then fielding an army looking at the bonuses (The Det has a base bonus that applies to everything or almost everything as well as 4 Enhancements you can give up to three of to non-Epic-Hero characters like Captain Generic Of The Fifth Company) So for example the DA book as a Green/All Wing Det called Grim Resolve, a "first company" Det called Inner Circle something or other, and a Ravenwing Det called The Hunt something or other. All of them are generally bad. Most DA players are probably looking towards the Core Rulebook and the Gladius Detachment. Its got some of the better bonuses while also being one of the least restrictive. While DA have a Terminator Detachment, and a Biker detachment, you can only pick/use one at a time, so if you mix Terminators and Bikes, half your army can't use the bells and whistles, while if you use the Gladius Det which is far less restrictive you can use all the bells and whistles. Ergo most people use Gladius. A few will make theme armies with one of the DA or other Core Detachments. But that's pretty rare.

Next: your "Character" models are now usually attached to a squad at the beginning of the game and locked into them until the end of the game. Very few characters can just run around by themselves without getting shot to death one turn 1 for two reasons: Everything can shoot anything else it can see, and characters no longer have the "Look Out Sir" rules. Very rarely a character will have something called Lone Operative which is similar to LOOKOUT SIR!, except for how rarely it applies. Basically most characters now are Super Sergeants like Wolf Guards used to be.

So lets say you're caught up and on the same page with me here. A typical DA army might (I say might, because its still early and the "meta" hasn't settled in yet - the book is still a few days to a week and a few days from being live in the GW army builder app but it might) look like Azrael, 6 Inner Circle Companions, and an Apothecary in one unit, a couple units of Deathwing Knights to play Anvil to a couple units of Ravenwing Command Squads attached to Ravenwing Black Knights (Probably one of the Black Knight Command Squads has the Fire Discipline enhancement which is really really nasty when you can churn out 30ish shots under it's effect. Optionally it could be Azrael, 10 Hellblasters and a Lieutenant-or-Apothecary with the Fire Discipline enhancement. But again its pretty much a wash. 10 x2 attacks, 9x2 sometimes 9x3 attacks. 10 shooters, vs 6 hard to hit swordsmen, 50/50 on what you pair with Azrael, and where you put Fire Discipline.

You could do two DW Knights units, 10 Terminators (as either Deathwing or normal) Terminators in one squad or two, two sets of 6 Black Knights each led by a Command Squad (they're the hammers to the DWK Anvils) and the Fire Discipline Enhancement for about 1860-70 points leaving room for potentially a couple LEADERs attached to the assorted various Deathwing/Terminator units. Knights will like any of the three leaders - reroll charges, or +1 to wound with their maces/swords, or Sustained Hits will all help them about the same. The Shootinators (i.e. the ones with Stormbolters, and heavy guns) are more likely to appreciate the Chaplain or the Librarian. +1 to wound on Storm Bolters with 4 shots is probably the best, but the Libby giving you extra hits on 6's is also going to be happy. The Captain letting you reroll charges (and pop a freebie strat) is also good, but more niche. The Black Knights are "led" by the Command Squad because 6 Black Knights with a 3+/5++ (3+ Armor save and 5+ invuln) are generally better than 6 guys with a 3+ and no invuln plus an ATV that can't be resurrected with more wounds that won't matter much.

That's your Deathwing box, a couple Terminator HQs you can probably pick up on Ebay cheaply from the Leviathan/Starter Set Box (Though I'd advice getting the Starter Set box too for the characters, more terminators, and the rule book.) and 6 boxes of Ravenwing Bikes/Black Knights which is likely to sting in the wallet area. Even 3 boxes for one full unit is painful, especially compared to the value added boxes like Leviathan/Starter Sets and Deathwing Assault.

Other Ways to Go:
The Lion is back. A lot of people are down on him, but I don't think he's that bad. One of the things I like to do with either/both of the loyalist Primarchs is surround them with Infiltrators led by a Phobos Librarian which works like this: While a Phobos Librarian is leading a Phobos armored unit, the unit can't be shot at from outside 12, and even from within 12" they're -1 to hit. This includes the Librarian leading them. Because the Primarch is next to his own guys, he gets that LONE OPERATIVE ability from above. He can't be shot from outside 12. So you have this big bubble that can't be shot from outside 12" (and if you picked Infiltrators nothing can deep strike within 12" so no Deep Strike and shoot). The Lion himself can deepstrike though, so there's some potential for Reivers - which aren't good enough to be good, or bad enough to be bad - but they can deep strike with the Lion. Not that Deep Striking a melee unit is especially great. Best Likely case you Deep Strike to a corner and charge the turn after, if you can. Technically you can charge same turn, but the odds are pretty low. I'd stick with Infiltrators, but it's there. The more obvious pairing is the Lion with Deepstriking Terminators - which isn't bad and probably 50/50 with the no-shoot-bubble. 10 Terminators will make a helluva bodyguard even if they can be shot at. 10 Deathwing Knights (two units because they now cap at 5) that take 1 damage off anthing that shoots them makes a pretty good bodyguard that will rarely care if they can be shot at.

The Ravenwing Darkshroud gives Stealth (-1 to GET hit) in a 6" Aura. Deathwing Knights with -1 to hit get even more persnickety. Inner Circle Champions have a built in -1 to GET hit that will (Sort of) stack with Stealth for -2 to GET hit. You cap at +/- 1 to Hit modifier, but +1 to hit is somewhat common. -1 to hit is much less so so stacking -2 to get hit has some appeal. Not enough to be a primary Wombo Combo, but giving -2 to the Inner Circle Champions led by Azrael for the 4++, and some Deathwing Knights who already had a 4++ standing next to The Lion who can't even be shot at while he's standing next to Space Marine Infantry....

We've got a short window here were Aircraft that were even more limited than the Rule of 3 no longer have that extra limit can be fielded, and the Dark Angels have access to something like 5 different aircraft datasheets Now I'm not saying field 15 aircraft, but 2 flying Avenger Mega Bolters (DA Warthogs), 2 flying Rift Canons (The DA version of the AC-130), and a pair of Flying Land Raiders will run you about 1200 points leaving 800 to win the game after you get in your airstrikes. In theory. This may make you somewhat unpopular if GW hasn't fixed all the 9th Ed problems with Aircraft that made them limit all armies to two total aircraft no matter how many datasheets. But the combined codex thing does make it so DA are one of the few armies that can run an almost all aircraft army without resorting to Forgeworld.

Now the app is updated.

I know it is not the most efficient but will give this a try this weekend.

The Librarian in Terminator armor with 10 DW Terminators has me intrigued how it may fare on the tabletop.

There are three units which can utilize Vow, which may be too few. Need to play and feel it out. This list is also a mix of what is already painted and not requiring a lot of work to get this on the tabletop (IE not the most efficent).

Inner Circle v1 (1995 points)

Space Marines
Dark Angels
Strike Force (2000 points)
Inner Circle Task Force


CHARACTERS

Azrael (105 points)
• Warlord
• 1x Lion’s Wrath
1x The Lion Helm
1x The Sword of Secrets

Ezekiel (75 points)
• 1x Book of Salvation
1x Mind Wipe
1x The Deliverer
1x Traitor’s Bane

Librarian in Terminator Armour (105 points)
• 1x Combi-weapon
1x Force weapon
1x Smite
• Enhancement: Deathwing Assault

Lieutenant with Combi-weapon (70 points)
• 1x Combi-weapon
1x Paired combat blades


OTHER DATASHEETS

Deathwing Terminator Squad (380 points)
• 1x Deathwing Sergeant
• 1x Power weapon
1x Storm bolter
• 9x Deathwing Terminator
• 2x Chainfist
2x Cyclone missile launcher
7x Power fist
9x Storm bolter

Drop Pod (70 points)
• 1x Storm bolter

Hellblaster Squad (250 points)
• 1x Hellblaster Sergeant
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
1x Plasma incinerator
• 9x Hellblaster
• 9x Bolt pistol
9x Close combat weapon
9x Plasma incinerator

Inceptor Squad (130 points)
• 1x Inceptor Sergeant
• 1x Assault bolters
1x Close combat weapon
• 2x Inceptor
• 2x Assault bolters
2x Close combat weapon

Inceptor Squad (260 points)
• 1x Inceptor Sergeant
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Plasma exterminators
• 5x Inceptor
• 5x Close combat weapon
5x Plasma exterminators

Inceptor Squad (260 points)
• 1x Inceptor Sergeant
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Plasma exterminators
• 5x Inceptor
• 5x Close combat weapon
5x Plasma exterminators

Infernus Squad (160 points)
• 1x Infernus Sergeant
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
1x Pyreblaster
• 9x Infernus Marine
• 9x Bolt pistol
9x Close combat weapon
9x Pyreblaster

Scout Squad (65 points)
• 1x Scout Sergeant
• 1x Astartes chainsword
1x Bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
• 4x Scout
• 2x Astartes shotgun
4x Bolt pistol
4x Close combat weapon
1x Missile launcher
1x Scout sniper rifle

Scout Squad (65 points)
• 1x Scout Sergeant
• 1x Astartes chainsword
1x Bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
• 4x Scout
• 2x Astartes shotgun
4x Bolt pistol
4x Close combat weapon
1x Missile launcher
1x Scout sniper rifle

Exported with App Version: v1.11.0 (39), Data Version: v352

I would try to get some Bladeguard in there if you really want to make good use of Ezekiel, plus they are Deathwing and benefit from the Vow thing. The Terminator Librarian with Deathwing Assault leading some Terminators is a good choice, as the turn they drop they can use the Relic Teleportarium strat to get real close (although they can't charge afterwards) and benefit well from the libby's Sustained Hits 1. I would definitely get some more Deathwing in there (probably dropping some of the Inceptors to find the points), as they synergize better with the detachment rule.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I would try to get some Bladeguard in there if you really want to make good use of Ezekiel, plus they are Deathwing and benefit from the Vow thing. The Terminator Librarian with Deathwing Assault leading some Terminators is a good choice, as the turn they drop they can use the Relic Teleportarium strat to get real close (although they can't charge afterwards) and benefit well from the libby's Sustained Hits 1. I would definitely get some more Deathwing in there (probably dropping some of the Inceptors to find the points), as they synergize better with the detachment rule.

Realizing the List Poster mentioned this is what they have ready or almost ready:

I'd guess Ezekiel joining the Infernus Squad was what gave them Deathwing (And thus Vow Eligible) - And it's a neat little trick: ~35 S5 0 D1 shots with +1 to wound.

Going forward, my kneejerk suggestion for replacing some/most of the Inceptors with Dreads, but I realized it needs to be INFANTRY to get the Vow bonus. This might be a good niche for Sternguard with an attached Libby for the 4++ bubble - the plus 1 won't get you into Devastating Wounds, but it will let you often wound on 3's. Bladeguard and more Terminators are both decent choices.

And for a Sleeper option - Vanguard Vets. ~40 S5 -1 D1 attacks with Lethal Hits on the Charge, More if you add a captain. 10 Vanguard Vets will land you in the 6 Bladeguard to 6 ICC ballpark points wise. And they've got the movement to get to more than one or two objectives during the game.

Cents would be funny, but there's absolutely no way to make them Deathwing.

Outriders are MOUNTED not INFANTRY, and the Chaplain on Bike wouldn't give them Deathwing either.

But if you want to play up The Vowed Objective Vanguard Vets would be a sneaky good choice for a stalking horse partnered with Deep Striking Shootinators. Deep Strike within 12 for 54 Bolter Quality shots (40 Storm Bolter, ~14 Cyclone Frag Missiles)

The downside to playing up The Vowed Objective looks to be how limited you are on Multi-wound attacks. 2 Cyclone Kraks. Overcharged Plasma. Thunderhammers and X-Fists, and you'll likely need that +1 to wound vs anything T9 or better like vehicles and large monsters.