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Karol wrote: Okey but this is a male dominated hobby, and it is not like there is a way to stop someone from legaly playing what ever army they want as long as the load outs and bases are correct.
You know how your gaming group enforces competitive gaming and 2k only? Congratulations you have discovered Social Pressure and Hostile Environments.
Okey but this is a male dominated hobby, and it is not like there is a way to stop someone from legaly playing what ever army they want as long as the load outs and bases are correct.
Oh boy is that a gakky take.
I'm not going to weigh in too hard, but for a couple of relevant anecdotes: Representation is very important both on a societal level and an individual level.
As a life long nerd man I've dated several nerd women in my time. And while they were all nerdy in different ways / aspects (big into anime and comics, big into video games, big into board games / card games / TT games) and enjoyed a variety of lines within their chosen sphere(s) of nerdom, they've also all had a noticeable lean towards ones which represent women as more than just sex objects. One in particular expressed that she really enjoyed seeing women represented powerfully and capably, because while she enjoyed men in those roles it also felt good to see her sex represented.
And frankly? I get it. Because while I am a man and therefor the default audience for all of this stuff, I'm also very noticeably black. I've first hand experience that there's no shortage of hobby spaces (irl and online) which are noticeably hostile towards me simply because of that deviation from the standard participant template. And let me tell you that gak is uncomfortable. It sucks trying to enjoy something you care about with othersand having it made known that you're not welcome, especially when so many don't truly realize they're doing it. And if addressed they quickly become extremely, openly hostile. I can tell you first hand that this gak is common place, but I can also tell you it's gotten markedly better as media has become more diverse. And all of these things with which I have first hand experience are much, much worse for women in these spaces.
Furthermore, that issue is actively fought by representation in the media / source material. While you and I know that Blade and Worderwoman aren't real and certainly aren't out friends, our deeper subconcious does not. Seeing a meddly of representation in media teaches the lizard brain to see a variety of demographics in a positive light, because all IT sees is a human that it has positive feelings about. So even without a conscious effort this sort of inclusion actively softens views and makes such spaces - be they IRL or online - more friendly and accepting of diverse participation.
Okey but this is a male dominated hobby, and it is not like there is a way to stop someone from legaly playing what ever army they want as long as the load outs and bases are correct.
Oh boy is that a gakky take.
I'm not going to weigh in too hard, but for a couple of relevant anecdotes: Representation is very important both on a societal level and an individual level.
As a life long nerd man I've dated several nerd women in my time. And while they were all nerdy in different ways / aspects (big into anime and comics, big into video games, big into board games / card games / TT games) and enjoyed a variety of lines within their chosen sphere(s) of nerdom, they've also all had a noticeable lean towards ones which represent women as more than just sex objects. One in particular expressed that she really enjoyed seeing women represented powerfully and capably, because while she enjoyed men in those roles it also felt good to see her sex represented.
And frankly? I get it. Because while I am a man and therefor the default audience for all of this stuff, I'm also very noticeably black. I've first hand experience that there's no shortage of hobby spaces (irl and online) which are noticeably hostile towards me simply because of that deviation from the standard participant template. And let me tell you that gak is uncomfortable. It sucks trying to enjoy something you care about with othersand having it made known that you're not welcome, especially when so many don't truly realize they're doing it. And if addressed they quickly become extremely, openly hostile. I can tell you first hand that this gak is common place, but I can also tell you it's gotten markedly better as media has become more diverse. And all of these things with which I have first hand experience are much, much worse for women in these spaces.
Furthermore, that issue is actively fought by representation in the media / source material. While you and I know that Blade and Worderwoman aren't real and certainly aren't out friends, our deeper subconcious does not. Seeing a meddly of representation in media teaches the lizard brain to see a variety of demographics in a positive light, because all IT sees is a human that it has positive feelings about. So even without a conscious effort this sort of inclusion actively softens views and makes such spaces - be they IRL or online - more friendly and accepting of diverse participation.
Forgive me, but can I poke at this a bit?
Like, how do you think this interacts with the idea of target demographics? Can products be made for certain sub-demographics and retain those aims? I'm no expert, but I imagine Barbie has a pretty small array of male dolls compared to its female line, and that just seems like a reflection of the typical purchasing consumer. There's all manner of products and media that are aimed at specific audiences, and I think it's healthy to have those sub-ecosystems sitting alongside other products/media that are aimed more at "general" audiences, where I'd expect to see more inclusivity.
Okey but this is a male dominated hobby, and it is not like there is a way to stop someone from legaly playing what ever army they want as long as the load outs and bases are correct.
Oh boy is that a gakky take.
I'm not going to weigh in too hard, but for a couple of relevant anecdotes: Representation is very important both on a societal level and an individual level.
As a life long nerd man I've dated several nerd women in my time. And while they were all nerdy in different ways / aspects (big into anime and comics, big into video games, big into board games / card games / TT games) and enjoyed a variety of lines within their chosen sphere(s) of nerdom, they've also all had a noticeable lean towards ones which represent women as more than just sex objects. One in particular expressed that she really enjoyed seeing women represented powerfully and capably, because while she enjoyed men in those roles it also felt good to see her sex represented.
And frankly? I get it. Because while I am a man and therefor the default audience for all of this stuff, I'm also very noticeably black. I've first hand experience that there's no shortage of hobby spaces (irl and online) which are noticeably hostile towards me simply because of that deviation from the standard participant template. And let me tell you that gak is uncomfortable. It sucks trying to enjoy something you care about with othersand having it made known that you're not welcome, especially when so many don't truly realize they're doing it. And if addressed they quickly become extremely, openly hostile. I can tell you first hand that this gak is common place, but I can also tell you it's gotten markedly better as media has become more diverse. And all of these things with which I have first hand experience are much, much worse for women in these spaces.
Furthermore, that issue is actively fought by representation in the media / source material. While you and I know that Blade and Worderwoman aren't real and certainly aren't out friends, our deeper subconcious does not. Seeing a meddly of representation in media teaches the lizard brain to see a variety of demographics in a positive light, because all IT sees is a human that it has positive feelings about. So even without a conscious effort this sort of inclusion actively softens views and makes such spaces - be they IRL or online - more friendly and accepting of diverse participation.
Forgive me, but can I poke at this a bit?
Like, how do you think this interacts with the idea of target demographics? Can products be made for certain sub-demographics and retain those aims? I'm no expert, but I imagine Barbie has a pretty small array of male dolls compared to its female line, and that just seems like a reflection of the typical purchasing consumer. There's all manner of products and media that are aimed at specific audiences, and I think it's healthy to have those sub-ecosystems sitting alongside other products/media that are aimed more at "general" audiences, where I'd expect to see more inclusivity.
Toy companies tell children (and their parents) What toys boys and girls are supposed to like and often get upset if a toyline ends up popular with the gender they didn't intend it for. They, in many ways, create the demo they target. On top of overall societal pressures. Boys who play with barbies are still, uh... largely frowned upon socially for example. None of this is healthy.
Toy companies tell children (and their parents) What toys boys and girls are supposed to like and often get upset if a toyline ends up popular with the gender they didn't intend it for. They, in many ways, create the demo they target. On top of overall societal pressures. Boys who play with barbies are still, uh... largely frowned upon socially for example. None of this is healthy.
I feel like the issue's a little more nuanced than that. Along the lines of "write what you know", many artists/designers/etc. are naturally going to be making things that happen to appeal to their own demographic because of the likelihood of shared experiences. Is this bad? I would say not inherently, no.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/04/16 20:10:37
RaptorusRex wrote: There is definitely a web of factors involved in how play is gendered.
On top of that, I just did a search for the oft-cited "monkeys play with gendered toys" study, only to find that another study was done in 2023 that supposedly came up with the opposite result. So like, square that circle.
gender is far more complicated than a lot of people want to give it credit for, and all of those complications cascade into myriad other complications in each other way that gender intersects with our life. it's rarely simple!
she/her
i have played games of the current edition
StudentOfEtherium wrote: gender is far more complicated than a lot of people want to give it credit for, and all of those complications cascade into myriad other complications in each other way that gender intersects with our life. it's rarely simple!
The funny part is most people don't seem to know where a lot of gender theory comes from, and when they do they like to ignore John Money and all the stuff he did.
and then you add capitalism to it were corporations will do everything that makes more money
support it, oppose it, play with it or trying to guide it
which in the end is what annoys most people about it (not talking about the vocal minority here that just hates it for reasons) but that not even trying to hide the money making aspect and calling people out for not liking corporations of doing it
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
Like, how do you think this interacts with the idea of target demographics? Can products be made for certain sub-demographics and retain those aims? I'm no expert, but I imagine Barbie has a pretty small array of male dolls compared to its female line, and that just seems like a reflection of the typical purchasing consumer. There's all manner of products and media that are aimed at specific audiences, and I think it's healthy to have those sub-ecosystems sitting alongside other products/media that are aimed more at "general" audiences, where I'd expect to see more inclusivity.
Not all target demographics and audiences are gendered though. GW isn't aiming for male nerds, it is aiming for nerds (that have significant purchasing power) and while that demographic is dominated by men, it does include women (and non-binary people).
RaptorusRex wrote: There is definitely a web of factors involved in how play is gendered.
On top of that, I just did a search for the oft-cited "monkeys play with gendered toys" study, only to find that another study was done in 2023 that supposedly came up with the opposite result. So like, square that circle.
Heh, half of science is collation.
The thing about 40k is that no one person can grasp the fullness of it.
Karol wrote: Okey but this is a male dominated hobby, and it is not like there is a way to stop someone from legaly playing what ever army they want as long as the load outs and bases are correct.
You know how your gaming group enforces competitive gaming and 2k only? Congratulations you have discovered Social Pressure and Hostile Environments.
Yeah, but I wasn't talking about my store. I am was talking in general. It is a male dominated hobby world wide. Show me the pictures of women "collectors" having tens of thousands of dollars spend on various table top products (not just GW), in the same numbers we see for men. It is like you know if we talked about who collects expensive bags, and you told me that there are men who do it. Yes, there are women who take part in the hobby. There is women only social preasure or "hostile enviroment" stopping women from joining. If a 13y old autist from a "toxic eviroment" can join so can do women/girls. But they don't want to. It is simple as that. And trying to change it has, and I will again use a sports example here, as efficient as WNBA. Decades spends on promotions, milions of dollars spends on teams, salaries etc. And women do not come, in even a fracture of of the numbers, of where men go to see NBA.
People have different likes, needs and wants. That is true. And you can probably have an example of anyone liking anything, just like you can find an example of an example of anyone disliking anything. But there are still group preferancs. There is things people like in large numbers (football in europe) and there is stuff only a few people like (currling). And there are also divides by what men and women like. There is no way to make GW games or hobby more accesible to anyone, without handing out stuff for free. Women don't seem to like table top gaming. Same way men generaly don't like to watch "wives of..." series. There ae thousand and one things like that. And trying to change it generaly ends bad for the companies that try it in the long run, but most important it ends bad for the communities whose support build up the frenchise and the companies to begin with.
Who was asking for Female custodes? I am not saying I read the WHOLE internet or even everything that is writen in polish, german and english. But through 3 editions, 9 years (and I build to remember such things) I have seen exactly 0 times people ask for such a change. So if it isn't made for the existing fans, and it will have no positive impact on the community as a whole, Why was the change made?
Also it is lazy. I would get it if we get some cool story, about how custodes lose more and more members each days, and then suddenly someone cracks a lost vault on Venus and we find out that the Mother of Space Marines, had a side project and she created 10k female custodes, with weapons armour (maybe even some new things, Emperors custodes didn't have). And now the brotherhood has to deal with the "problem". Keep them separate? They aren't part of the custodes culture, do we induct them in to it. Maybe there would be different factions looking at the new "sisters". Such a story line could be interesting. And not be "yeah there were custodes female for the last 40 years" we just forgot to tell you about it, wrote each text as if they were always male and you know stuff like that.
Not all target demographics and audiences are gendered though. GW isn't aiming for male nerds, it is aiming for nerds (that have significant purchasing power) and while that demographic is dominated by men, it does include women (and non-binary people).
Yeah and how is it going for all the other frenchises that tried it? comic books, super hero movies, D&D, etc all male dominated for decades. Companies decided to open it up for new consumers and what happens? sales go down for everything. And the more controversial or "controversial" the changes the more it drops. Meanwhile frenchises that don't try to artificialy change are doing great. And the best thing women and men love Fallout, Dune, Godzilla. Mind blowing right. People do a proper Baldurs Gate and everyone loves it.
If GW wants more "female" factions then they should work on stuff which already exists in the lore. Expand SoS, write more about IG which has litteral 100% female regiments, maybe write about subfaction. Heck they could have even done the custodes thing right. Instead people get smacked in the head and made to accept a reality which isn't real.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
StudentOfEtherium wrote: gender is far more complicated than a lot of people want to give it credit for, and all of those complications cascade into myriad other complications in each other way that gender intersects with our life. it's rarely simple!
Only it is. Simple economics show us it isn't. Just look at the most free, democratic and equal societies in the world, with a history of equality dating back centuries. And what do we see in them? That the more equal the society becomes, the divides between what men/women pick/like/etc does not change. In fact it is often the opposit. Are there any economical, social, law etc barriers for women to support female sports in western countries? No. Then why do they don't go watch (with few exeptions) them. There is not state standing above women with a stick and bashing them on the head, if they try to go and watch volley ball or basketball match.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/04/16 21:25:49
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Yeah and how is it going for all the other frenchises that tried it? comic books, super hero movies, D&D, etc all male dominated for decades. Companies decided to open it up for new consumers and what happens? sales go down for everything. And the more controversial or "controversial" the changes the more it drops. Meanwhile frenchises that don't try to artificialy change are doing great. And the best thing women and men love Fallout, Dune, Godzilla. Mind blowing right. People do a proper Baldurs Gate and everyone loves it.
Lets take Godzilla as an example, a franchise originally meant for a Japanese audience (you know the whole giant walking nuclear distaster was kinda a big important cultural theme for the only country that has been nuked in war) and that was succesfully expanded to new customers (anyone not Japanese) to the point we have an entire new series within the IP made by non-Japanese for an international market.
Or Fallout, the series that just got a TV show that considerably expanded the target audience from gamers to a general audence (pretty much anyone that watches TV). Dune, expanding the target audience from people that read fiction sci-fi books to the larger general audience of people that watch movies.
Marvel literally shat gold in the billions by expanding from the minuscule audience of comics to the most succesfull cinematic franchise ever.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2024/04/16 23:07:32
Karol wrote: Yeah, but I wasn't talking about my store. I am was talking in general. It is a male dominated hobby world wide.
You've missed the point entirely which is unsurprising. In the same way that your community has enforced competitive gaming and 2k games as your standard, some communities enforce an environment where women or minorities are not welcome.
There are a variety of reasons for this from blatant bigotry and hatred to a simple fear of losing a safe space. The latter is far more common than the former but they do absolutely still exist.
Most people don't realise they are creating or perpetuating a hostile environment because they have never had someone come to them and say "Hey that's not cool". If a community makes jokes about how their army "r*pred" the enemy or makes misogynistic/racist jokes, until someone feels comfortable enough to make a stand, they will likely keep making those jokes/comments and it is never easy to be the one to "ruin the fun" as it were because then you become an outcast.
You can't claim "Women don't want to do Warhammer" in one sentence and then say "But there is no way to know why" in the other when people are explicitly telling you its because they feel unwelcome.
If a woman publicly posts online about their Warhammer they get 50/50 of people being cool and the rest being misogynistic asshats who claim they're in it for the clout or to plug their OnlyFans.
Case in point Louise Sugden who has been in the hobby for years but going public with her social media led to the likes of this:
Are these people internet trolls? Yes. Are they a very loud and public face of the hobby? Also yes. You cannot claim that it's "economics" or "preferences" when the public reaction to women in Warhammer is to attack them. Get some perspective and actually listen this time.
Yeah and how is it going for all the other frenchises that tried it? comic books, super hero movies, D&D, etc all male dominated for decades. Companies decided to open it up for new consumers and what happens? sales go down for everything. And the more controversial or "controversial" the changes the more it drops. Meanwhile frenchises that don't try to artificialy change are doing great. And the best thing women and men love Fallout, Dune, Godzilla. Mind blowing right. People do a proper Baldurs Gate and everyone loves it.
Lets take Godzilla as an example, a franchise originally meant for a Japanese audience (you know the whole giant walking nuclear distaster was kinda a big important cultural theme for the only country that has been nuked in war) and that was succesfully expanded to new customers (anyone not Japanese) to the point we have an entire new series within the IP made by non-Japanese for an international market.
Or Fallout, the series that just got a TV show that considerably expanded the target audience from gamers to a general audence (pretty much anyone that watches TV). Dune, expanding the target audience from people that read fiction sci-fi books to the larger general audience of people that watch movies.
Marvel literally shat gold in the billions by expanding from the minuscule audience of comics to the most succesfull cinematic franchise ever.
I think that's Karols point. Godzilla, Fallout and Marvel (until recently) were just being more or less faithful to themselves, not "going woke" or whatever. Karol is saying that franchises falter when instead of sticking to their core themes or origins, they are changed for the sake of culture/politics in ham-fisted ways.
Karol wrote: Yeah, but I wasn't talking about my store. I am was talking in general. It is a male dominated hobby world wide.
You can't claim "Women don't want to do Warhammer" in one sentence and then say "But there is no way to know why" in the other when people are explicitly telling you its because they feel unwelcome.
That claim can be made. There's room in between the 99% of women who would never be interested in warhammer, and then the social pressure "ick factor" experienced by the 1% that might.
RaptorusRex wrote: There is definitely a web of factors involved in how play is gendered.
On top of that, I just did a search for the oft-cited "monkeys play with gendered toys" study, only to find that another study was done in 2023 that supposedly came up with the opposite result. So like, square that circle.
Heh, half of science is collation.
At this point I ask "only half?"
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2024/04/16 23:08:38
Insectum7 wrote: I think that's Karols point. Godzilla, Fallout and Marvel (until recently) were just being more or less faithful to themselves, not "going woke" or whatever. Karol is saying that franchises falter when instead of sticking to their core themes or origins, they are changed for the sake of culture/politics in ham-fisted ways.
Original Godzilla: the living representation of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and thus an extremely destructive and vicious monster.
Legendary (and Heisei) Godzilla: basically a superhero.
Yeah no lol.
That aside I fail to see how male only Custodes are apparently a core theme of the IP when the Custodes themselves were a snippet of background lore until 7th ed.
Of course we could also talk about how many of the original concepts of Rogue Trader era 40k have been twisted or even outright dropped in modern 40k (like funnily enough: female Space Marines, insert rant of greedy GW betraying their original egalitarian principles for evil patriarchy money or whatever), all of which arguably far more deserving of criticism than female Custodes.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2024/04/16 22:28:02
Insectum7 wrote: I think that's Karols point. Godzilla, Fallout and Marvel (until recently) were just being more or less faithful to themselves, not "going woke" or whatever. Karol is saying that franchises falter when instead of sticking to their core themes or origins, they are changed for the sake of culture/politics in ham-fisted ways.
Original Godzilla: the living representation of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and thus an extremely destructive and vicious monster.
Legendary (and Heisei) Godzilla: basically a superhero.
Yeah no.
That aside I fail to see how male only Custodes are apparently a core theme of the IP when the Custodes themselves were a snippet of background lore until 7th ed.
I think we're talking past each other here, and I think you missed Karols(and my) point. But I'm low on time so I'm just going to have to leave it at that.
Well, in 35 years of playing this game, I've encountered very few women who play. Generally, it was a spouse or significant other who would play for a bit and quit. Overall, they weren't interested in the game.
Granted, this is just the U.S. in multiple states but I'd imagine there is not a lot of women who play 40K in other countries.
Like many IPs, companies are trying to expand their audience to make more money. The challenge seems to be the more the company changes things to try and appeal to more people, it tends to have the opposite effect and appeal to less people. It is not about taking a comic and making it a movie. It is making significant changes to the core of the characters that is off-putting. It becomes bland and simply uninteresting.
I don't really care for this type of business as it feels very lazy and lacks a lot of creativity which is what made many of these IPs so popular and beloved.
40K is transitioning to become a lifestyle brand, though I guess it could be argued it already is. Do they make 40K plushies?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/04/16 23:09:40
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
Noting I only read the past page, but I don't quite follow karol's argument anyways. They talk of how stuff like Dungeons and Dragons have lost popularity for pandering to women, when up until about 1 year ago when Hasbro decided to basically knife itself in the gut with piles of new 'influencer rules', the franchise was on a decade long growth amongst basically all demographics. The argument seems to be that since fewer women buy into 40k, that means fewer nods towards women existing need to be there, considering they specifically called out Age of Sigmar and its use of female models.
I mean, just anecdotally, even before its mainstream burst in popularity with 5th edition I played Dungeons and Dragons with several women, and it was my girlfriend who convinced me to get into 40k. It just seems odd to me that making even basic nods to women and minorities is marked as pandering and a method of leading to financial ruin.
It just seems like a bit of common courtesy, acknowledging traditionally 'other' groups as existing. Plus it leads to the fun of making more options to make your models 'your guys' - mixed gender group, or maybe you have an all lady guard regiment, or a gentleman's club, etc. A lot of this stuff existed in the lore in the past anyways, and there have been far worse retcons in 40k than letting Custodians be women.
StudentOfEtherium wrote: gender is far more complicated than a lot of people want to give it credit for, and all of those complications cascade into myriad other complications in each other way that gender intersects with our life. it's rarely simple!
Only it is. Simple economics show us it isn't. Just look at the most free, democratic and equal societies in the world, with a history of equality dating back centuries. And what do we see in them? That the more equal the society becomes, the divides between what men/women pick/like/etc does not change. In fact it is often the opposit. Are there any economical, social, law etc barriers for women to support female sports in western countries? No. Then why do they don't go watch (with few exeptions) them. There is not state standing above women with a stick and bashing them on the head, if they try to go and watch volley ball or basketball match.
No, it really isn't that simple - I say that as someone who realized they were trans just a year ago, and I'm in my 40's. While I surely continue to display some masculine mannerisms (transitioning doesn't happen overnight), it doesn't change how I see myself or who I am. And I, for one, welcome this change to the Custodes and would absolutely welcome female Marines. Seeing oneself on the tabletop matters, no matter who one is.
She/Her
"There are no problems that cannot be solved with cannons." - Chief Engineer Boris Krauss of Nuln
Kid_Kyoto wrote:"Don't be a dick" and "This is a family wargame" are good rules of thumb.
As some one who plays with an almost half female group i get the feeling that some of you are the problem and not a lack of females in the hobby. Quoting one of my friends when i suggested that we should play at our local store "it is full of weirdos that stare".
As for the whole first born sons of nobles thing, why cant both be true. Though i am also of the opinion that chapters like the blood angels that to my understanding care less for the genetic integrity of the aspirants could potentially throw female aspirants into to their magic blood coffins and get regular sexy male vampire out of it.
Yeah and how is it going for all the other frenchises that tried it? comic books, super hero movies, D&D, etc all male dominated for decades. Companies decided to open it up for new consumers and what happens? sales go down for everything. And the more controversial or "controversial" the changes the more it drops. Meanwhile frenchises that don't try to artificialy change are doing great. And the best thing women and men love Fallout, Dune, Godzilla. Mind blowing right. People do a proper Baldurs Gate and everyone loves it.
Lets take Godzilla as an example, a franchise originally meant for a Japanese audience (you know the whole giant walking nuclear distaster was kinda a big important cultural theme for the only country that has been nuked in war) and that was succesfully expanded to new customers (anyone not Japanese) to the point we have an entire new series within the IP made by non-Japanese for an international market.
Or Fallout, the series that just got a TV show that considerably expanded the target audience from gamers to a general audence (pretty much anyone that watches TV). Dune, expanding the target audience from people that read fiction sci-fi books to the larger general audience of people that watch movies.
Marvel literally shat gold in the billions by expanding from the minuscule audience of comics to the most succesfull cinematic franchise ever.
I think that's Karols point. Godzilla, Fallout and Marvel (until recently) were just being more or less faithful to themselves, not "going woke" or whatever. Karol is saying that franchises falter when instead of sticking to their core themes or origins, they are changed for the sake of culture/politics in ham-fisted ways.
Karol wrote: Yeah, but I wasn't talking about my store. I am was talking in general. It is a male dominated hobby world wide.
You can't claim "Women don't want to do Warhammer" in one sentence and then say "But there is no way to know why" in the other when people are explicitly telling you its because they feel unwelcome.
That claim can be made. There's room in between the 99% of women who would never be interested in warhammer, and then the social pressure "ick factor" experienced by the 1% that might.
RaptorusRex wrote: There is definitely a web of factors involved in how play is gendered.
On top of that, I just did a search for the oft-cited "monkeys play with gendered toys" study, only to find that another study was done in 2023 that supposedly came up with the opposite result. So like, square that circle.
Heh, half of science is collation.
At this point I ask "only half?"
The fact you resort to using the word woke scuttles your arguement from the start
Gaen wrote: As some one who plays with an almost half female group i get the feeling that some of you are the problem and not a lack of females in the hobby. Quoting one of my friends when i suggested that we should play at our local store "it is full of weirdos that stare".
there's a reason i don't play at my local gamestore but gladly engage with the hobby in spaces where i feel more comfortable (including this place, most of the time)
she/her
i have played games of the current edition
Gaen wrote:As some one who plays with an almost half female group i get the feeling that some of you are the problem and not a lack of females in the hobby. Quoting one of my friends when i suggested that we should play at our local store "it is full of weirdos that stare".
As for the whole first born sons of nobles thing, why cant both be true. Though i am also of the opinion that chapters like the blood angels that to my understanding care less for the genetic integrity of the aspirants could potentially throw female aspirants into to their magic blood coffins and get regular sexy male vampire out of it.
Yes, the simple fact is that people arguing here are doing so from personal experience and opinion, rather than data. Whether posters here understand it or not, representation does empirically matter. It has been studied to death. Women are more likely to apply for jobs in environments with other women, than environments with only men. Children a socialised by silent exclusion, you don't have to verbally say 'girls can't be doctors' to a girl, to ingrain in her mind that doctors are men with nothing but male (white) doctors in all environmental contexts.
The unconscious bias that affects how we act is in many ways more pernicious than the conscious, because you get people who don't recognise it and argue against it happening, as is clear in this thread.
The blood angels have been my favourite go to for the stupidty of antigirl geneseed - they take mutant runts and turn them into adonises, that requires far more genetic tampering than putting organs into a woman. The amount of deliberate backflips and stretching required to specifically prevent this working in women is ridiculous. It's like genetic gerrymandering...
The only real argument for female exclusion in fantasy is one of tradition. That traditionally, in our patriarchal society, realworld examples are mostly male. And thus, by tradition, we should keep it that way. Because those who enjoyed it within that traditional paradigm would find it unfamiliar outside that paradigm (this itself is the fallacy of tradition, but it continues to live throughout society). But that ignores everyone else outside it (and women have always been a catch-all demographic for gender/sex minority support, so they bring along all other identities) who could enjoy it where it not stuck in that paradigm.
The same argument was used against integration of non white actors, of representation of non-white characters. Whoopi Goldberg famously quoted as a child in the 60s pointing out Uhura was black and NOT a maid on primetime tv, affecting her outlook on what she could accomplish.
All of this is basically down to an inability to truly empathise with someone other than yourself, to empathise with someone who's lived experience differs. To trust them when they say that their experience affects them differently to your experience and that impacts them in society. This is where the concept of privilege comes from, if you cannot understand these experiences, it's because you were privileged to never have to live them. But that doesn't mean they didn't happen just because you don't understand.
It's a sad fact that men rarely see these things, and when they do only through the lens of women they are actually invested in - daughters for example.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/04/17 00:53:35
The only real argument for female exclusion in fantasy is one of tradition. That traditionally, in our patriarchal society, realworld examples are mostly male. And thus, by tradition, we should keep it that way. Because those who enjoyed it within that traditional paradigm would find it unfamiliar outside that paradigm (this itself is the fallacy of tradition, but it continues to live throughout society). But that ignores everyone else outside it (and women have always been a catch-all demographic for gender/sex minority support, so they bring along all other identities) who could enjoy it where it not stuck in that paradigm.
The same argument was used against integration of non white actors, of representation of non-white characters. Whoopi Goldberg famously quoted as a child in the 60s pointing out Uhura was black and NOT a maid on primetime tv, affecting her outlook on what she could accomplish.
All of this is basically down to an inability to truly empathise with someone other than yourself, to empathise with someone who's lived experience differs. To trust them when they say that their experience affects them differently to your experience and that impacts them in society. This is where the concept of privilege comes from, if you cannot understand these experiences, it's because you were privileged to never have to live them. But that doesn't mean they didn't happen just because you don't understand.
It's a sad fact that men rarely see these things, and when they do only through the lens of women they are actually invested in - daughters for example.
This is also why I think representation matters not just directly to those being represented, but also for the way those people are perceived by everyone else. When the 'other' is properly represented in the media we consume, it eventually stops being 'other'.
The only real argument for female exclusion in fantasy is one of tradition. That traditionally, in our patriarchal society, realworld examples are mostly male. And thus, by tradition, we should keep it that way. Because those who enjoyed it within that traditional paradigm would find it unfamiliar outside that paradigm (this itself is the fallacy of tradition, but it continues to live throughout society). But that ignores everyone else outside it (and women have always been a catch-all demographic for gender/sex minority support, so they bring along all other identities) who could enjoy it where it not stuck in that paradigm.
The same argument was used against integration of non white actors, of representation of non-white characters. Whoopi Goldberg famously quoted as a child in the 60s pointing out Uhura was black and NOT a maid on primetime tv, affecting her outlook on what she could accomplish.
All of this is basically down to an inability to truly empathise with someone other than yourself, to empathise with someone who's lived experience differs. To trust them when they say that their experience affects them differently to your experience and that impacts them in society. This is where the concept of privilege comes from, if you cannot understand these experiences, it's because you were privileged to never have to live them. But that doesn't mean they didn't happen just because you don't understand.
It's a sad fact that men rarely see these things, and when they do only through the lens of women they are actually invested in - daughters for example.
This is also why I think representation matters not just directly to those being represented, but also for the way those people are perceived by everyone else. When the 'other' is properly represented in the media we consume, it eventually stops being 'other'.
Yes absolutely. 'Strong female characters' only exist because they are the exception. Eventually they will just be 'characters' (but you have to go through this process or you'll never get to that new normal). The representation of non white characters and gay characters in TV have been a good example of this. 30 years ago 'gay' was the entire identity of the character, because it was an exception and unusual. Now, we see characters who also happen to be gay, so normalised has it become, it no longer defines the character.
You can't build the empathy of individuals without giving them something to work with. Boys need to see as many types of female characters as girls need to see. Everyone needs to see many types of male characters, beyond the masculine stereotype so that they don't feel othered or wrong. And of course all other identities.
Yeah and how is it going for all the other frenchises that tried it? comic books, super hero movies, D&D, etc all male dominated for decades. Companies decided to open it up for new consumers and what happens? sales go down for everything. And the more controversial or "controversial" the changes the more it drops. Meanwhile frenchises that don't try to artificialy change are doing great. And the best thing women and men love Fallout, Dune, Godzilla. Mind blowing right. People do a proper Baldurs Gate and everyone loves it.
Lets take Godzilla as an example, a franchise originally meant for a Japanese audience (you know the whole giant walking nuclear distaster was kinda a big important cultural theme for the only country that has been nuked in war) and that was succesfully expanded to new customers (anyone not Japanese) to the point we have an entire new series within the IP made by non-Japanese for an international market.
Or Fallout, the series that just got a TV show that considerably expanded the target audience from gamers to a general audence (pretty much anyone that watches TV). Dune, expanding the target audience from people that read fiction sci-fi books to the larger general audience of people that watch movies.
Marvel literally shat gold in the billions by expanding from the minuscule audience of comics to the most succesfull cinematic franchise ever.
I think that's Karols point. Godzilla, Fallout and Marvel (until recently) were just being more or less faithful to themselves, not "going woke" or whatever. Karol is saying that franchises falter when instead of sticking to their core themes or origins, they are changed for the sake of culture/politics in ham-fisted ways.
Karol wrote: Yeah, but I wasn't talking about my store. I am was talking in general. It is a male dominated hobby world wide.
You can't claim "Women don't want to do Warhammer" in one sentence and then say "But there is no way to know why" in the other when people are explicitly telling you its because they feel unwelcome.
That claim can be made. There's room in between the 99% of women who would never be interested in warhammer, and then the social pressure "ick factor" experienced by the 1% that might.
RaptorusRex wrote: There is definitely a web of factors involved in how play is gendered.
On top of that, I just did a search for the oft-cited "monkeys play with gendered toys" study, only to find that another study was done in 2023 that supposedly came up with the opposite result. So like, square that circle.
Heh, half of science is collation.
At this point I ask "only half?"
The fact you resort to using the word woke scuttles your arguement from the start
How dismissive of you. I put it in quotes to denote that I'm not really on board with the language, just recognizing that it's in the vernacular. I implore you to try and get past it.
This is also why I think representation matters not just directly to those being represented, but also for the way those people are perceived by everyone else. When the 'other' is properly represented in the media we consume, it eventually stops being 'other'.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Unfortunately for me one of the first great examples for positive minority representation that comes to mind is The Cosby Show, which of course now makes me wince. :/
Damnit.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/04/17 01:53:29
This is also why I think representation matters not just directly to those being represented, but also for the way those people are perceived by everyone else. When the 'other' is properly represented in the media we consume, it eventually stops being 'other'.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Unfortunately for me one of the first great examples for positive minority representation that comes to mind is The Cosby Show, which of course now makes me wince. :/
Damnit.
Ummmm.......maybe think of the Jeffersons, instead?
Also, female Custodes. Cool. I hope everyone enjoys their increased modeling options and representation, sincerely.
Deathwatch +3000p
Farsight +2000p
Kraken +2000p
Nephrekh +1000 
