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Hi Guys

I was wondering about how a society can sustain itself realistically against forces like the Eldar, Tau, and perhaps even Tyranids with the seriously "back water" tech the Imperium arms its forces with!

I was thinking about developing an army based on a human society that has, somehow, evaded the Imperiums thrust for power and domination. This society has been watching the developments of the Imperium, but at the same time the society is extremely advanced and has not forgotten what science and development are, they view science in a similar way to say the Tau, but have the esoteric understanding similar to the Eldar.

I feel such a society is plausible in the current fluff for WH40K, the big question though, is how such a society could not only hold its own against a massed Imperial assualt, but stand a chance of handing the Imperium its ass!

To answer this, I thought the society may have made massive leaps in the field of genetics and cybernetics....and as such have developed a warrior cast that not only awesome psychic potential, but forces that could prevail against Adeptus Custodes, and basically wash the floor with your average Marine!

I was thinking of generating some moster stats for these guys, and balancing the stats by making the warriors very very expensive! As you could imagine, it will be a single system fighting against the mass ranks of the Imperium....

I would probably look at generating my own miniatures for this army, rather then doing a "cut and shut" on exsisting citadel ranges.....

Soooo, what do you think? is this something worth doing? do you think others would be willing to play against such a force? or perhaps even fielding a force like this?

Maybe this could be the first DakkaDakka derived army, that forces GW to include them in the game yeah, maybe not! but at least it'll be a change from the current boredom!

IMO, the best way for such a society to survive in the 40k universe is threefold:

1. They can't attack you if they don't know you're there.

2. They can't surprise you if you know they are coming! Massive information network of spies and infiltrators - which brings us back to no. 1, if you know they're coming, you can hide. If you hide and they don't find you, you don't fight, and if you don't fight, you won't loose.

3. Why fight them if you can get them to fight themselves. Using the information network of no. 2, they could pit the forces of corrupt Impeial politicians, tempt the Adeptus Mechanicus with technology, forge alliances with the Tau, hire Ork and Kroot mercenaries.

Failing this, any hostile force entering the system can't be alowed to escape or call for reinforcements. A powerful psychic jamming field and gravity well generators to prevent escape are imperative. Either huge hidden gun emplacements or a powerful stealthed fleet is necessary to destroy the interlopers. I'm not sure you'd need their warriors to be too superhumanly strong when you could use your psychic powers to make brother marine fight brother marine. It saves wear and tear on your own forces... and anything suitably strong to affect the Adeptus Custodes shouldn't have any trouble with mere Librarians.

True, true and true again.....

However, none of the above gets an army onto the field.....

I guess I'm looking for an excuse to create a really refreshing technological human "race" that has surpassed the Imperium..

In retrospect, the best way to do this would be to pitch the race from outside the galactic sphere.....something like this.

History:

Around the time the first colonial ships left Terra, before the great warp storms, one ultra large fleet was swept so far off course they actually ended up outside the known galaxy. While the Emporer grew his forces and reunited Terra, this "lost" colony developed its own Empire.....the mystic ideals used to create the orginal Emporer are a profound basis for the culture of this Empire coupled with a strong sense of Scientific knowledge. Knowledge so far advanced that simple ideas like the STC are considered archaic and extremely inefficient.

Now many millenia have passed, and rather than following the destructive path that the Imperium has trodden, this Empire has grown even more powerful, its leaders perhaps equal in wisdom and power to the once Emperor himself.

The Empires knowledge of the warp and its denizens is second to none, and the people of this alternative human development (think parallel evolution) have even created ways in which they can harness the warp without the warp being able to detect them.....they move through the warp unseen, unless they chose to be noticed.

The Empire has sent exploration fleets in all directions from its powerful and well guarded home base, that is at very best extremely difficult for current Imperium fleets to reach. One such fleet has arrived in Imperial space, and seeks an audience with the Emporer.....they know he is mortally wounded, but they also know that he is not beyond they're skill to communicate and perhaps even revive!

The High Lords of Terra, having heard the intentions of this fleet are on high alert, for one faction belives they are an insiduous threat and a trick from the forces of Chaos, the other faction simply wants to retain the status quo!

So the scene is set, the Alternative Empire (no name as yet) is more determined than ever to commune with the Emporer, and the Imperium with all its forces availible will stop at nothing to prvent this from happening!!!

Think of the possibilities........

Its an interesting idea. I'd be careful not to take it a bit too far though. What I mean is that "their leaders are better and smarter, their tech is better and more complex, their warriors meaner, and are warp masters" seems a bit much. While a change is good, making them superior to the imperium in every way but manpower is kinda bland. All those things together kinda bring them really close to just being human eldar.

I'd go with a stealth using race with superior tech and very good strategists. There is no way one system could continually defend itself openly against the imperium. Hundreds or thousands of years of throwing crusade army after army at it would grind it down. Stealth and misdirection are the main key. It would be fun if they are able to use the webway to move their armies around. They have a friendly relationship to eldar who see them as much less ignorant and dangerous. One thing I would stress just to seperate them from most of the 40k races is that they aren't out for conquest, only to protect their worlds. This doesn't mean they only defend. A pre-emptive attack on the world where the next crusade or army to hunt your system would be hugely disruptive and give your force a strange and interesting "special ops" type feel but on a huge army size scale.

I feel if you go too heavy tech you get too close to tau and if you go uber everything/elite you're eldar. They could have a special relationship with the eldar rangers.

Delephont wrote:Hi Guys

I was wondering about how a society can sustain itself realistically against forces like the Eldar, Tau, and perhaps even Tyranids with the seriously "back water" tech the Imperium arms its forces with!

Is it "back water" though?

The Leman Russ / Land Raider / Rhino / Chimera tank is the very best tank developed in the 30,000 years of AI rule, warfare, development, etc. between now and the Emperor's Crusade. It is quite obviously the perfect evolution of tank design. To our primitive eyes it looks like a WWI tank, but that's just because we're too crude to understand its true genius.

That's how I justify most 40K tech actually.

All valid points!

@WarsmithDave

I think I've abandoned the idea of a single star system trying to hold off the Imperium, for exactly the reasons you've stated.

I think (for me personally) the second idea of an alternative Empire holds alot more promise, and scope.

Remember, I'm not GW! I have no vested interest in making the Imperium the centre of the universe.

I see these alternative humans as mostly benevolent, and the fleet that has entered Imperium space on a mission of understanding, rather than conquest. They wish to reunite with and work alongside the Imperium, but realise theres no point in winning over individual planets, they need to commune with the Emperor and restore his power, so that a worthwhile reunion can take place.

On their quest, they will meet and fight alongside / against Tau, Ork, Imperials, Eldar perhaps even Chaos...because they have no bias.

I can see so much potential in this endeavour, and I can't wait to start designing miniatures and stats. My intention would be to make "landing parties"....these LPs will always be outnumbered, so the warriors can be very very powerful and expensive.....but at the same time they can be allied (depending on the situation) to any other force.....however, most Imperial forces will be viewed as enemy, due to the directives of the High Lords.

Great idea. But still, the Emporer MUST rule the universe.

Seriously though, what abaout an alternative like,

Pure Anti Tech. They are SO mentally advanced, that they sort of look like those Dome-heads in the very 1st Episode of STAR TREK tm, called 'The Menagerie'.

Physically, they make toothpicks look beefy, and you wonder how thier neck holds up that monstrous dome(has its own gravity field!!).
Mentally, they could make you cut you own throat.

Ignore standard physics rules of the 40k universe, IE no Warp-travel-thry have pure Hyper-drive Tech.

Merely consider Chaos as a state of mind, an option if you like.(Mutations/Demons possible? )

So Ld tests are made at 1/2 when some power or other is utilised, they CANNOT shoot you, they make you shoot yourself! (An option I see here is possibly similar to the Chaos Dreadnought's Fire-Frenzy)

Yeah, and they would be really expensive too!

Not exactly sure if this helps from a design standpoint, but as far as fluff, there were camo schemes in the original RT book for Space Marines assigned to (I believe) a "Second Outer Galactic Expedition Force" or the like. That could be a starting point indicating that the Imperium was/is aware of an extragalactic threat important enough to warrant dispatching some of its finest warriors to track down/fight. Might be a usable lead in for your faction?

Yes, I like the ideas....especially the "Make you shoot yourself" kinda thing....

Some more thoughts.....

If a race of humans has become "enlightened"....lets not say to the point of transedance, but not far off! Would they "sacrifice" themselves needlessly in battle....especially since they find war and violence beneath them and since entering the Imperial space its become a "needs must" ideal!

I was thinking about a hive mind type thing......ok, let me explain. Each expedition contains, say, 1000 probe ships. These probe ships are monstrous vessels, and each one contains an expedition force.

The expedition force is comprised of Andriods or "Biomechs"...cybernetic organisms, that are self aware and independant. So similar to skitarii forces, but so much better.....

Now, heres the crack. The Human element is the hive mind controller....in times of war, the biomechs suspend their "personalities" (probably that of monks and nuns anyway ) and along with the human controller, enter a battle meditation called the "joining"......The human can see and feel what every biomech sees and feels on the field of combat, and can issue orders that are followed instantly, because in a sense the biomech & human are now one organism.

This way, the humans forces can be "toned" down in terms of powers etc, but the humans can be Primarch like in stats, cause you will only ever meet one of these at any given time! The only way a force could even enter into combat with the human would be if they boarded the ship, but thats a different story!

I've toyed with the idea of having a human avatar on the ground during the conflict....also a good idea methinks, but how about the whole army being Avatars, super soldiers that once killed, only the host dies and the "essence" returns to the original human...kinda like Battle Star Galatica (new series!)

You should read a series by Peter Hamilton, an English Sci-Fi Author called the 'Nights Dawn' Trilogy.

There is some stuff in there that sounds exactly the same, called Bi-tek.

Look up a description somewhere on the Net, and you might find something.

1st Book was 'The Neutronium Alchemist' I think. Also 'The Naked God'.

May help the search.

I will check those books out.

I'm really excited about this project! So much so that I may persue this rather than the Grey Knights project!

I might even write a "codex" for this race, so the circle is complete!

Well Delephont, let's see where this goes. I would try to playtest it as well?!?

Based in Aus, but can do something.

Guys

Anyone interested in helping out with this project is more than welcome to pitch in. Ideas for stats, points costs, special abilities...everything!

I'm doing the base designs for the miniatures over Chritsmas, I shall fly away to a log cabin in the Austrian alps to concentrate!

I already have two very talented sculptors on board to construct and cast the miniatures....so who knows where this will go.

The good thing about this, is the miniatures will be originals, so can be used in any system as counts as, even if the wider WH40K gaming circles don't want to use the rules or play against the new army.

How tough are you planning on making these guys, Delephont? are we talking about Crisis Suits as troops, like with multiple wounds, good armor, and a decent Toughness, or are we talking about Terminators as troops, with even better armor, but not as many wounds?

Do we have any guidelines along which we can make suggestions?

CK

I was thinking of something like this:

BS: 7
WS: 7
S: 7
T: 8
A: 3
I: 7
W: 3
Ld: 10
Sv: 2+

Points cost per "trooper" : 187

So if you played a basic 1500 points game: you could field 8 of these guys.....the plan being that the player would use the "humans" as commanders and perhaps the normal troopers (the androids) would be equal to SM (e.g Azreal)....

This is just an initial draft....I've yet to play test this using "counts as" miniatures....

What are your thoughts?

Math-hammer dictates that the model is too tough.

BS4 lascannons needed to inflict three wounds: 3x1/(2/3(2/3))=27/4 or roughly 7 shots.
BS3 lascannons needed to inflict three wounds: 3x1/(1/2(2/3))=9 shots
BS4 plasmagun shots needed to inflict three wounds: 3x1/(2/3(1/3))=27/2 or roughly 14 shots.
BS3 plasmagun shots needed to inflict three wounds: 18 shots
BS4 meltaguns needed to inflict three wounds: 3x1/(2/3(1/2))=9 shots
BS3 meltaguns needed to inflict three wounds: 3x1/(1/2(1/2))=12 shots

Ugh. Don't even get me started on stuff that doesn't ignore his 2+ save, or stuff that won't harm his T8. I think that the T8 is the tipping point. Your thing is like an Uber-Wraithlord that is a "troop" with a higher statline. Once he's in melee, he'll pretty much be invincible due to the number of attacks he's kicking out at I7.

EG: Heavy Bolter shots needed at BS4: 3x1/(2/3)(1/6)(1/6))=162 heavy bolter shots.

Number of lascannons and plasmaguns your typical enemy unit costing 187 will have access to: 2!


IMHO, an uber trooper should be more like:

WS6/BS6/S6/T6/A3/I5/W2/Ld10/4+I with the special rules: Monstrous Creature, Fearless and Feel No Pain.

-Edit 2- I reduced the base attacks to 3... since I realized with 4 attacks, he's owning terminator squads, due to A4 combined with I5... which isn't good, since one would expect a full unit of terminators to kill something with 2 wounds, no matter the toughness.

BS3 lasgun shots needed to inflict 2 wounds: 2x1/(1/2)(1/6)(1/4)=96!
BS4 bolter shots to inflict 2 wounds: 2x1/(2/3(1/6)(1/4))=72! (Needless to say, 4x10 man squads rapidfiring this monster to death is a very satisfying vision.)
BS4 lascannons needed to inflict 2 wounds: 2x1/(2/3)(5/6)(1/4))=72/5 or roughly 14 shots!
BS4 heavy bolter shots needed to inflict 2 wounds: 2x1/(2/3)(1/3)(1/4)=36!

Powerfist attacks to kill this guy: (1/2)(5/6)(1/2)=5/24... so roughly, you'll need 5 swings to do 1 wound, and 10 swings to kill. Conversely, he'll eat through your squad quite nicely in the meantime.

The model can't be instant killed, and has a 75% save against EVERYTHING that isn't a powerweapon, and a 50% save against powerweapons / powerfists! He can't be pinned or fall back. He can't be made non-scoring. So we trade away invicibility vs small arms and low AP weapons, add, can't hide due to Monstrous Creature" status, for double invulnerability vs high AP weapons - with only 2 wounds, he's still a very tough hombre! Give him a big spanky gun, that shoots a big S4 AP5 ordinance (size) template with pinning [Swarm Missile Launcher], and single S6 AP1 shot (with 3D6 turbo-pen) up to 24" [Particle Accelerator] and you have yourself a gross 250 point monster.

-Edit- I suppose because you have so few models, they'll have to be exempt from the "charge what you shoot rule".

-Edit 3- It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to make these guys mindless if their controller dies.

-Edit 4- Further to the above - It wouldn't be a bad idea to make these guys non-scoring if their controller dies.

I like your thoughts Keezus.

Delephont, I think a good way to estimate thier power/points value is to have a mate field them, and YOU play against them, that way, you can see how it would feel to face this force, and therefore be appealing to others.

I am hopeless at Mathammer, but I see where Keezus is coming from.

I like the MATH HAMMER....MATH HAMMER good!

Thanks Keezus, you've given this some thought, and your thoughts won't fall on deaf ears!!

Because you have applied the MATH HAMMER, your numbers may make more sense then mine (plucked from thin air!)

akira5665

That was always my intention. Although I want to create a force with character and desirability, it also needs to have flaws, so that others stand a chance against it!...However, it should pose a real threat to attacking Imperial forces......

I still need to work out what exactly will be on the field, weapons systems, vehicles, transport...and of course, a name!

I was thinkig of Hsien ( Chinese for Immortal ) and giving the Empire a basis in Chinese philosophy. Althought the people of the Empire will be from all racial aspects, the cultral development could be from a Chinese Imperial basis, with the actual language spoken a form of Chinese Mandarin. I like this idea becuase it gives the Empire some credance and a connection to events happening now.

I really wanted to consider this Empire and its heavy dependance on Androids, but even though I would design the Androids to be almost human with a distinct Artificial Intelligence, I'm worried this may bring it very close to the Adeptus Mechanicus......however, seeing as there are no rules sets for the AM, this army can very much stand on its own.

Summary:

Empire name: Hsien?
Generals and Command teams: Human ( Super human )
Foot Soldiers: Androids, AI cybernetic organisms ?

What do you think?

How about these stats:

WS 6
BS 5
S 6
T 6
W 3
I 6
A 3
LD 10
Sv 2+

FOR 100POINTS even

what do you think about that?

Hi WarsmithMorgoth, thanks for joining.....

Regarding the stats, what do you guys think of this?

Azreal, Supreme Grand Master:
WS:5 BS:5 S:4 T:4 W:4 I:5 A:4 Ld:10 Sv:2+
Cost:225pts

Grey Knight Grand Master:
WS:5 BS:5 S:4 T:4 W:3 I:5 A:4 Ld:10 Sv:2+
Cost:145pts

Daemonhost:
WS:4 BS:4 S:6 T:4 W:4 I:4 A: d6 Ld:9 Sv:4+
Cost:85pts

Officio Assassinorum Operative:
WS:5 BS:5 S:4 T:4 W:2 I:5 A:3 Ld:10 Sv:4+ Cost:120pts (most expensive)

Those are some small points costs, for some relatively big numbers. The average cost of a Marine (excluding wargear, etc) 25pts / 125pts for 5 Marines.

So I think it would be fair to really boost these warriors, and make them expensive for the power!

I like Keezus and the MATH HAMMER thunder stroke! But I'll play test all three suggestion and see what ones best fit the "fluff" I'm writing up

HHHMMM...Delephont by the light of Terra i with the 88th well come and bring you back to his light amen lol
like the whole idea maybe use the stats of Officio Assassinorum Operative and field them in three man teams??
and as the 88th and me there is a big pond between us

skullspliter888 wrote:HHHMMM...Delephont by the light of Terra i with the 88th well come and bring you back to his light amen lol
like the whole idea maybe use the stats of Officio Assassinorum Operative and field them in three man teams??
and as the 88th and me there is a big pond between us

Hmmm.....Officio Assassinorum Operative far too weak! At the end of the day these Humans are supposed to be more advanced than the Imperial equivalent in every way, so much so, that even the pinnacle of the Emporers research into gene technology hasn't reached their dizzy heights.....

Some more fluff:

The humans of the Hsien Empire, have evolved from the basic human genotype. However, with the balance of spiritual and scientific ideals, what was once a human form is now a towering unit of balanced power and awesome potential. The Hsien have all but reconstructed and redesigned the human body. Now, the Hsien own bodys which self repair at a phenominal rate, adapts to new enviroments, and constantly redesigns itself depending on useage!

The Hsien consider the Human body to be a tool, nothing more and nothing less....their minds are also part of that tool, and the Hsien have spent millenia in meditation discovering what lies at the core of their beings. So that the Hsien could concentrate on the development of their spiritual selves, they realised that the body had to be free from taint and weakness. By using a type of gene manipulation called genitronics, the Hsien have managed to actually awaken the genetics of the human form so that it can continually grow, develop, and adapt....the end effect is an indeffinate life expectancy, and a life free from disease.

Genitronics is the splicing of fully independant artifcial intelligence modules with the hosts genetic strandings. Even at birth the Hsien could be considered miraculous, it takes an average three weeks for a Hsien to become an adult.

The Hsien foetus is remarkably small. This was designed into the Hsien matrix to prevent the mother from being hindered during pregnancy. the mother can continue to operate at full efficiency up to and immediately after the child is born. When thw Hsien child is born, the baby is approx 3 inchs in length and will weigh around 0.5kg! During conception, the foetus is created by a combination of a male genitronic function and a female genitronic function. Whats so special about the conception is that, due to the intervention of the artificial intelligent stranding, the sum total of both parents accumulated knowledge, skill, and experience are also passed to the growing child. So the child is born fully aware, and spends the first three weeks of life building itself based on enviroment and other external factors....this is experienced as a three week constant meditation, the child will awaken a full Hsien, and the Hsiens learning will then continue from that point onwards. When a Hsien is fully grown, whether male or female, the Hsien will stand a healthy 8.5 to 9.0 feet in height! ( Think of those miniatures peeps! )

Next installement....Hsien battle armour!

I think those stats could work out fine - just remember that points costs are relative to other options in the army, and to how many can be taken. I can't take 8 Mephistons for a reason.

Also, not all big numbers are created equal. A point of toughness or another wound mean a lot more in game terms than, say, a point of weapon skill.

I'd also think about having a worse save (like 3+ or even 4+) and more wounds, just for meta-game purposes. An entire 2+ save army would just make everyone forced to plasma and lascannon it up. Otherwise you may end up finding the army doesn't really work - you either get rolled over by an army that is tooled up for you, or you always win because they just can't get the ap2 firepower to kill you. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems a little all or nothing, like those annoying 5-6 land raider armies.

It might make more sense to make the units slightly weaker, but give them something like a stealth field.

Have you ever read the primarch thread on bolter and chainsword?
Your normal Humans are about twice as good as the primarchs there and literally half as expensive. I think the need to be nerfed a little. Though I really like your idea. Just don't overdo it.

lambadomy and Snorkle

I take your points on board.....I know that in order for this army to be playable it has to be playable!

Lambadomy

I think it would totally fit in with the fluff I'm working on if the opposing army needs to get "tooled up" to meet the Hsien in combat....all the Hsien may get killed, but look at what it takes!

Snorkel

In WH40K, up till now the Primarchs would have been considered the ultimate expression of human potential. That the Hsien express better qualities than Primarchs is totally in keeping with the fluff!

Conclusion:

I take on board everyones points, and as soon as I get a chance I would like to play test a few stats suggestions, even the Assassin stats. However, I'm trying to create an opening to something "new" within the structure of WH40K.....totally away from GW and the corpse god!

Thanks for everyones input, the more the merrier!