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Ok, this source of hilarity got me thinking.....

http://us.games-workshop.com/membership/eshare.pl?do=ReadThread&BoardID=4&ID=4747718&A=4749804#A4749804

 

Some of that makes no sense, such a gems like claiming it's against the law to change the rules so you can't use older models and you must be provided 40mm bases for free.  Somebody even claimed that metal termies can't be used anymore at all.  But it is a valid overall question about the base sizes.

New SM Terminators and new IG HW teams now come with 40mm bases.  In the past they came with 25mm bases, and apparently the classic metal terminators are still sold with 25mm bases.  So, which one do you use? 

Are older Termies that came with (and are still sold with.) 25mm bases required to use 40mm bases now?  Can new terminators that come with 40mm bases use 25mm ones?    If equipped the same, they are identical as far as the codex is concerned, so where do we go on this?

-Hans

Oh, forgot to put in my own opinion on this. While going technically by the rulebook I think you are supposed to go with whatever comes in the box (dumb answer too, since that means technically I can put my 3 crisis suits on 25mm basis because I bought the battlefrorce). But personally, I'd go with the overall statement of allowing anybody to use the smallest base size that entry in the codex is available with. Though the optimal answer would be for this to be put INTO the dang codex in the first place.... but we all know how that goes.

-Hans

The rule is actually quite clear, despite what that imbecile on the Eye of Terror was trying to make of the situation. The model can go on a base no smaller than the one that particular model came with. It doesn't matter in the least what some other model comes with.

Using my previous example, say you have two blister packs of Necron Lords. Necron Lord A comes with Base A. Base A is 25mm. A 25mm base is the smallest base that Necron Lord A can be mounted on.

Necron Lord B comes with Base B. Base B is 60mm. Technically by the RAW, a 60mm base is the smallest base that Necron Lord B can be mounted on. The fact that Necron Lord A is on a 25mm bases is irrelevant. You only consider the base that the model in question came with.

Secondly, Imperial Guard heavy weapons come with a 60mm base, not 40mm. However the Imperial Guard FAQ specifically states that they are for convenience of movement only. They can be based on 25mm bases. Personally I plan on mounting my missile launchers on the 40mm bases and the loaders on 25mm bases.

Basically what Ghaz said, IMO it is pretty clear......

Definitely sounds pretty cut and dry, definitely not the most fair rule.... as the base size can definitely have an effect on how a unit peforms, while exists identically in the codex for the same points. Just another excuse to keep my old-old metal termies instead of shelling out $50 for the new ones.

-Hans

You won't believe this but I just opened a brand spanking new box of terminators and lo and behold................. There are both 25mm and 40mm bases. The plot thickens.............

Posted By LibrarianEloqui on 03/06/2006 1:55 AM
You won't believe this but I just opened a brand spanking new box of terminators and lo and behold................. There are both 25mm and 40mm bases. The plot thickens.............

Ok, now you're just trying to make things difficult.

Posted By LibrarianEloqui on 03/06/2006 1:55 AM
You won't believe this but I just opened a brand spanking new box of terminators and lo and behold................. There are both 25mm and 40mm bases. The plot thickens.............

Ah, simple answer:

As GW has obviously abandoned the idea of supporting its older (as in years played) players, they have simply decided to introduce two base sizes as a transitional period. In the mind of GW, all of the old Terminators will eventually go away, at which point they can completely switch to the larger bases.

People simply don't keep their older models, and those who do don't matter, duh...

 

As a side note, my new Termie Chappie is the only Termie model I have that came with a large base, but as he wants to be in assault, this will probably only be a good thing.

You won't believe this but I just opened a brand spanking new box of terminators and lo and behold................. There are both 25mm and 40mm bases. The plot thickens.............

They are for the Teleport Homer.

Or so you say.

Anyone that's whining people need to rebase their terminators should have one nut placed in a vice until they pass out. Hopefully when they wake up they'll have come to their senses.

I agree entirely with Ghaz's opinions.

Of course another issue arises about the 25mm+ bases I've made for my HB's by combining a round slotta base with a 25mm square base to get a longer elipse...

But I don't play tournies anyway.

So, the terminator box has 25mm and 40mm bases in it? That settles it, the new terminators only NEED to be on 25mm bases, but can be put on the 40mm. After all, "Games Workshop Miniatures are usually supplied with a base and this should be viewed as the minimum size they can be mounted on" That is, unless you can find me some kind of official rule that says those 25mm bases are for the teleport homer and not the terminators themselves. And I don't consider instructions on the back of the box to be rules in any form. Not that I expect anybody to get them to fit there, mind you, so it's probably a moot point.

In all honesty, I agree with the above interpretations, I just see it as a flawed and poorly defined catch-all rule that can screw over people because of which figure they buy.

Asmodai: You wouldn't have a problem there, as the rules are clear that you can make the base as large as you want. The only real confusion, if there is any, is regarding the minimum base size.

-Hans

The guy is right about it being intended for the teleport homer............but you can't argue intent can you?

Posted By LibrarianEloqui on 03/06/2006 12:09 PM
The guy is right about it being intended for the teleport homer............but you can't argue intent can you?

Most boxes have the directions printed on the back of the box, and if the big base is shown going to the terminator and the small base going to the homer I think intent is obvious. I do not have a box in front of me to verify this however.

I just checked the instructions and there is no mention of the teleport homer......... Please keep in mind that I am not arguing this seriously and have every intention of sticking them on 40mm regardless if only for aesthetics.

But are we supposed to use the box and assembly instructions as offical rules? They can show a lot of things that aren't legal according to the codecies and rule books. It strikes me as very similar to the situations when people would use the photographs in the rules book or a codex to use as a rule example, and that generally results in some pretty interesting replies.

And like with Librarian there, I honestly am not too concerned about it, I just find the nature of this particular question to be interesting.   It's not like I'm going to start throwing my Crisis suits onto small flying bases meant for Drones or anything like that.

-Hans

First, remember Yakface's #1 rule of 40k:  "You can use modeling to your advantage, you can use modeling to your advantage, you can use modeling to your advantage."

Second, remember that GW has declined to include "base size" as a characteristic of its models' rules. If you want that, play Warmachine.

Third, remember that the BGB says to use the base included with the model as the minimum base size. Combine this with the previous two points and you get: If a model comes with more than one base, you get to choose which one applies.

Its simple, use the base(s) provided with the model. If you buy older models, like the Termie Librarian or Deathwings, you get the small bases. If you buy the newer models, like the spiffy new Chappie, you get the large bases. If you happen to get two different bases in the box/blister, guess what, you get to choose!

In 40k, base size has nothing to do with the model type/size/cost/worth/yadda. The only thing you need to worry about is if the base came with the model. End of story.

Posted By blue loki on 03/06/2006 1:32 PM

First, remember Yakface's #1 rule of 40k:  "You can use modeling to your advantage, you can use modeling to your advantage, you can use modeling to your advantage."

Second, remember that GW has declined to include "base size" as a characteristic of its models' rules. If you want that, play Warmachine.

Third, remember that the BGB says to use the base included with the model as the minimum base size.

Why contradict yourself in the same post? Base size is a characteristic of the model even if you follow yakface's interpretation of what a model is.

The real point is that different size bases have different advantages and disadvantages. Going gung ho one way or the other will expose a weakness your opponent can take advantage of.

Posted By snooggums on 03/06/2006 2:36 PM

Why contradict yourself in the same post?

Because I'm good at it. I try and play to my strengths.

No, what I meant was, while GW tells you to use the base supplied with the model, there is no standard and there is no guarantee that the base supplied with the model will be uniform or logical across the range of miniatures, or even between two packagings of the same model. There is no "base" characteristic in each model's unit entry, like Space Marine: Small Base. So if GW screws up and puts a Dreadnought base in your Lascannon Marine blister pack, you are forced to use that base for that model, following the honour system of course!

Even if there were a published component list for each model that would be something, but there isn't. The only thing close is the "bits" link on the website, or the phone book, er, catalog, both of which are unofficial rules-wise and both of which I have personally found errors in. Based on the BGB, there is no "standard" base size for pretty much anything, there is simply whatever the stockroom packing monkey decided to put in the box.

GW says to use what is in the box, and then they don't tell us what is in the box in any official capacity. Basically, they leave it up to your honour, their constantly and completely updated line of figures, and their perfect packaging system to figure out what base goes with what. Now, with whom does the contradiction lie?

GW? Screw up the packaging? Never heard of that before!

My basilisk came with two of the same gun mounts, and my last Broadside had 2 left arms. Fun Fun Fun.

-Hans

I would be perfectly fine with someone using the small bases for their terminators... if they deepstrike I could fit 7 wholes under a plasma cannon template

Speaking of GW bases though... I bought two boxes of gaunts, and got 16 slottabases, and 16 normal bases in each box. GW seems pretty gernous when it comes to bases.

My basilisk came with two of the same gun mounts, and my last Broadside had 2 left arms

Oh my god! MY last broadside had two left arms! I thought I was the only one. So this is what it sounds like when doves cry.

Just to add to the confusion:

I recieved the Saint Celestine living saint (I think that's what she's called) blister as a gift. The model has a tab at the bottom that appears to be meant for the standard slot in the slottabase. However, she only came with the ogre/terminator sized base.

I never base my IG hvy weap teams together. It has never been a problem and no one has ever questioned me on it. In our club we are strict about marking which models belong to the same team though since the gun cannot be killed by a single sniper or whatever. So the trade off to having them based seperately is that if the 'gunner' is sniped the gun must be moved to the other member of the team. He may be out of position to fire the weapon effectively.

Posted By Glaive Company CO on 03/07/2006 9:44 AM
I recieved the Saint Celestine living saint (I think that's what she's called) blister as a gift. The model has a tab at the bottom that appears to be meant for the standard slot in the slottabase. However, she only came with the ogre/terminator sized base.

Same thing with the new Termie Chappie. He has both the slotta tab and a round peg under his feet, yet he comes with the larger no-slot base. I just chopped/sanded it all off and glued him flat to the base.

I don't see how base size modelling could be advantageous.... squeezing more models into BtB in assault?

Posted By MattBaby on 03/07/2006 12:24 PM
I don't see how base size modelling could be advantageous.... squeezing more models into BtB in assault?

Less models under the template if you go bigger

They fit through smaller gaps if you go smaller

More models in hth if you go bigger

Less if you go smaller.

So neither is always better, but it can make a difference.

Oh don't forget the "Magic Cylinder" effect of the bases *rolls eyes*

Less models under the template if you go bigger - Capt Disagrees. You will still have the same amount of models under the ordance Template. Blast template will still touch every model though. Bigger bases USUALLY means less models. USUALLy but not always. I think you can fit 8 40mm bases under an ordance template. So if you have over 8 then you will not lose the whole sqaud of 40mm bases. Flame templates are different if you are spread out. 40 mm Deepstriking units will however feel the flamer.

They fit through smaller gaps if you go smaller -Capt Agrees. You could end up having to take more difficult terrian checks. Also you can't pass through freindly bases because you USUALLY don't have the room.

More models in hth if you go bigger. - Capt Disagrees. Base size has nothing to do with how many get into hth. 2 inch coherincy is just that. Big or small it doesn't change. There can be situations because of placement of troops that you don't get attacks but thats even between big and small. And to be perfectly honest bigger bases could lose you attacks.

Less if you go smaller. - Capt Disagrees You can get more model into enemy bases in hth with smaller bases. What do I mean? If an opening between enemy bases is big enough you can move your bases through them. Smaller bases allow you to touch more bases. You could attack a IC this way. 40mm will not let you go through enemy lines and do this.

So neither is always better, but it can make a difference. - Capt Agrees 100% Depending on placement, movement, loses, terrian and some more you can lose and gain attacks. The big factor how ever is if you can get into position to use your bases to their advantage.

Capt's Comments

Keeping your 40mm bases 2 inches apart will mean that you lose less models to templates that hit.

Proof of this. Take 25 mm models and spread them 2 inches apart in a staight line, do the same with the 40mm models. Now place a flame template over them. You'll touch more smaller ones than larger ones.

Posted By CaptAnderton on 03/07/2006 1:16 PM
Less models under the template if you go bigger - Capt Disagrees. You will still have the same amount of models under the ordance Template. Blast template will still touch every model though. Bigger bases USUALLY means less models. USUALLy but not always. I think you can fit 8 40mm bases under an ordance template. So if you have over 8 then you will not lose the whole sqaud of 40mm bases. Flame templates are different if you are spread out. 40 mm Deepstriking units will however feel the flamer.

Keeping your 40mm bases 2 inches apart will mean that you lose less models to templates that hit.

Umm... am I the only one confused by these entirely contradictory statements? Of course it might help if Capt understood the difference between templates and markers... maybe?

Have you actually played this game at any point Capt?

Yep want to see all the awards I've gotten. I'm proud of the Best Army, Best Appearance and Best Sportsman. Anyone can get best over all. Done that also.