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Codex-compliant chapters typically number only 1,000 Marines, and as far as I'm aware, even non-compliant chapters don't have a head count above 4 figures. With such low numbers (far too low to be realistic, IMO, but this isn't the point of this thread), it would be a huge waste to have lots of super-soldiers just hang out in orbit, protected by a thick hull and a powerful force field.

This would seem to suggest that the overwhelming majority of Astartes starships' crew members are non-Marines. Not just at low levels such as technicians and security personnel, but also in officer positions. Maybe even as frigate or corvette captains, in the case of fleet-based chapters.

After all, there is no reason (aside maybe from age or seniority) why a Marine would be more qualified than a vanilla human to sit in the captain's chair.

.

Yes. The WH+ show "Angels of Death" features the Blood Angels strike cruiser Sword of Baal which has a mortal crew & captain - Ship Mistress Livia Solken.

It’s long established that Chapters extend well beyond the Astartes headcount.

Indentured Servants, Ship Crew, Failed Aspirants turned Servitor.

But, it’s important to know that such crew and ancillary staff are loyal first and foremost to their Astartes Masters, and the Imperium a distant second.

Uh, yeah? Where have you been for the last 30 years?

Yes. This isn’t a unique post chapterization development.

Even the 30k legions employed largely human crew on their ships, such as Lorraine Sarrin who was the captain of the XII’s flagship.

 morganfreeman wrote:
Even the 30k legions employed largely human crew on their ships, such as Lorraine Sarrin who was the captain of the XII’s flagship.

Interesting. What novel is that from?

-Guardsman- wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
Even the 30k legions employed largely human crew on their ships, such as Lorraine Sarrin who was the captain of the XII’s flagship.

Interesting. What novel is that from?

Lotara Sarrin, and IIRC Betrayer is the best novel for her.

-Guardsman- wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
Even the 30k legions employed largely human crew on their ships, such as Lorraine Sarrin who was the captain of the XII’s flagship.

Interesting. What novel is that from?

Pretty much every HH or SoT novel that features World Eaters.

Yeah, nothing new/this is old hat and well known. The extent of most chapters involvement in the fleet side of things is usually the Master of the Fleet (typically the captain of the 4th company), which is essentially supreme admiral of the chapters space assets. Aside from that, a literal handful of marines from a given chapter might be involved in fleet operations, presumably in roles subordinate to the Master of the Fleet. How these individuals are chosen and their exact role isn't clear, but I assume they are senior officers of the 4th company as well. In one case, I seem to recall a 40k novel indicated a White Scars Sgt was the commanding officer of a vessel or fleet strike force. Theres a handful of other mentions across black library of relatively solitary Astartes acting in the role of a captain/admiral, more often than not as others indicated the commanding officers of Astartes naval assets will be humans.

that said remember the "1000 member limit" also is umm flexable in that it's with regards to line companies, and auxillery postings such as ship officers, librarians, chaplains etc specificly do not count to this limit

As pointed out above, Space Marine ships are crewed almost exclusively by Chapter Serfs. It is worth mentioning that Astartes vessels are highly automated with most tasks performed by servitors, much more so than most Imperial vessels, with low crew numbers as a result.

Probably the only Astartes guaranteed to be on a Space Marine ship is a techmarine as the chief engineer. Space Marines are very unlikely to allow techpriests to take this role, as techpriests are outsiders who are not initiated into the Chapter cult.

Aside from that, the presence of Astartes on vessels is generally mission-specific. The ranking marine onboard commands the vessel whilst he is present, which could be a squad sergeant if the ship is carrying a small force. I think this command will be in an overview capacity, with the ship also having a permanent serf captain who deals with the actual detail of command and acts when the marines are planetside/engaging in a boarding action. I see this as akin to the division between an admiral and a captain- a vessel with an admiral still has a captain to command the ship itself, as the admiral is busy doing other tasks (commanding the fleet at large). So a marine commanding a strike cruiser will be giving big-picture commands and be involved in planning, then leave that to be actually translated into "34 degrees starboard" levels of detail by the serf captain.

Masters of- positions for marine captains apear to be mainly administrative and ceremonial roles for most Chapters. Generally, the Master of the Fleet is still a battle captain who mostly does duties relating to commanding his company + attached assets in combat. I think fleet duties are likely to be logistical administration for the most part, scheduling refits, ensuring supplies have been requisitioned and tasks of that nature. You see the same for the other positions- the Master of the Armoury, for example, does not do much day-to-day armoury work. That is what the Master of the Forge does as the senior techmarine. Instead, the Master of the Armoury is probably responsible for arranging the distribution of armoury assets and consumables and ensuring a supply of raw materials and components. There are going to be exceptions, and sometimes these positions are held by dedicated individuals rather than company captains. This could be routine in a fleet-based chapter and would not be against the 1000 marine "cap" for the reasons mentioned by others in the thread.

I believe there is an old reference to infirm Astartes occasionally being given command of vessels when they are not fit for frontline duty. I think this is entirely plausible and they would probably replace the serf as captain. I think it would also be plausible that a dreadnought sarcophagus or similar tech (amniotic tanks) could be used to permanently install a severely wounded Astartes into the command throne of a vessel. I have not seen this happen in lore, but amniotic tanks are used for such purposes for warships and titans and I don't see why this wouldn't be an option for a marine who was a particularly distinguished void tactician.

How does the chain of command work? Does some noob marine outrank a non-marine ship commander?

 Crimson wrote:
How does the chain of command work? Does some noob marine outrank a non-marine ship commander?

Useally there is a Marine on the ship (a Sergent or higher ranked officer useally) whom the ship master answers too yes, however in theory yes if the marine in question was a noob marine he'd outrank the ship master, HOWEVER the ship master is someone whom the Marine is going to listen to.

It's honestly not that odd, consider that in modern militaries a Leuitneant fresh out of the academy outranks a master sergent with 20 years senriorty. But it's genuinely understood that the Lt. had better listen to his NCO

however in theory yes if the marine in question was a noob marine he'd outrank the ship master, HOWEVER the ship master is someone whom the Marine is going to listen to.

'Noob marine' isn't really applicable.
Remember (though its been awhile since they talked about this in a codex), 'codex' marines go from scouts->devastators->assault->tactical, with each role encompassing years of training and field work. So Joe Average tactical squad member (not even a Veteran marine) has been on the field for probably a couple decades.
If they're going to be posted on ship duties (even as a sergeant), they've got probably 40-50 years going for them.

They aren't going to be anything like raw LT equivalents.

It also depends on the chapter.

In some chapters serfs with high positions will be treated with the authority said position requires. And in others even the highest serf is still a slave.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
How does the chain of command work? Does some noob marine outrank a non-marine ship commander?

Useally there is a Marine on the ship (a Sergent or higher ranked officer useally) whom the ship master answers too yes, however in theory yes if the marine in question was a noob marine he'd outrank the ship master, HOWEVER the ship master is someone whom the Marine is going to listen to.

It's honestly not that odd, consider that in modern militaries a Leuitneant fresh out of the academy outranks a master sergent with 20 years senriorty. But it's genuinely understood that the Lt. had better listen to his NCO

Pretty much this. Voss is correct that there are few such things as NooB Marines, but even a Chapter Scout would technically outrank a Ship Master.

As said though, in practical terms only in extremis would any Marine, up to and including Chapter Master countermand the Ship Master. Because the Ship Master got their on merit, and being a valued Chapter Asset is almost certainly privy to Rejuvenaut treatment, so may themselves be a good couple of centuries old.

The codex limitation only applies to mainline infantry.

It doesn't apply to officers - you can have as many techmarines, apothecaries, chaplains and librarians as you want and still be codex compliant. You won't, there are practical limitations to how many you can get, but it doesn't matter as far as the codex is concerned.

It also doesn't apply to pilots. You can have as many space marine pilots as you have ships and still be in compliance. Again there are some practical limitations to how many ships you have or need.

No idea if that is old lore or new lore.

No reason why using chapter serfs for pilots wouldn't still be common though.

StaevinTheAeldari wrote:

No reason why using chapter serfs for pilots wouldn't still be common though.

especially for the non-combat support craft like cargo and passenger shuttles used to support the ship and crew, not the Marines themselves. but i'd imagine that any small craft that is expected to go into a combat zone, be it in space or on a planet, would have Marine crew. Thunderhawks, any fighters they carry, the vehicle landers, etc.

Its pretty well established that the "1000 marine limit" is not a hard line number. Just going by the numbers that were listed in the 5th edition codex, a theoretically full strength Ultramarines would be somewhere around 1200 minimum. Possibly more. But this is only if you are somehow at 100% strength.

We know that sometimes the commanders of Astartes ships are humans and sometimes they are Astartes. It's most likely down to just what works right now.

I would expect that naval assignments are kinda where the Chapters put their veterans who are getting worn out, but still capable of serving. They're not as useful on the battlefield, but their experience is useful in space. They just fill out the extra positions with serfs.