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In the latest novel ‘The End and The Death’ (in fact, a similar hint appeared in a previous short film), a new setting appears: because Warp has no linear time, the results from the future can affect the past, which in turn contributes to itself happening in the future.

We are then told that when a Chaos God ‘born’, it will exist in the past, present and future simultaneously. For example, in the novel ‘The End and The Death’, in the distant future, the Emperor becomes the most powerful Chaos God, and then this "will-be" Chaos God exist in the furture affects the past (just like Terminator), thus contributing to its own emergence in the furture, this is what the Emperor has been trying to prevent from happening, and he must fight his future self.

I believe this is definitely influenced by some of the Terminator worldview, as well as a lot of the monotheistic (especially,the Calvinistic)worldview.

Worse, this theory changed the tone of the entire worldview of Warhammer 40K universe. In the previous worldview, Warp was just a shadow of thoughts and emotions of countless mortals in the material world, and Chaos Gods was their own karma and retribution. now, everything has become Predestinatism and Determinism.

If a future Chaos God can bring about its own birth by influencing the past, how can it be considered the retribution and responsibility of mortals that create it? When Slaanesh, who was born in the 30K era, influenced the Eldar civilization in 20K and even earlier periods, corrupting them, tempting them to their fall, and ultimately promoting its own birth, how could it be considered karma and retribution for Eldar civilization's own corruption? That means they are nothing more than simple victims of Slaanesh,not their own responsibility.

The theory in the latest novel ‘The End and The Death’will make the struggles and sacrifices of countless mortals meaningless. Everything has already happened, everything is God's decide, everything depends on God's will.---------- "The Emperor firmly denies that he is a god and forbade people from worshiping him because he hopes that humans can rely on their own efforts and struggles s instead of begging and relying on God's mercy and help like beggars."——NO MORE NOW!this is no longer the case!

Now,according to the newest "Dark King" theory, Humanity is just a group of miserable vermins, their struggle is meaningless, only the Emperor is everything, and the fate of mankind is determined by the emperor, not their own struggle————in this brandnew theory,Only the God-Emperor is all,only the God-Emperor decide anything,Human's struggle is meanless,only God-Emperor can protect them and save them.without their awesome God-Emperor,Human species is nothing but worthless animals,without their badass God-Emperor,Mon-keigh just a bounch of literally hairless monkeys crawl in the tree and mud of Earth,
Humans are even far inferior to the Eldar. The destruction of the Eldar race will lead to the birth of the God of Death, who will take final revenge for them. And all mankind can get is complete destruction and annihilation,only their God-Emperor can save them.

To be honest, I absolutely hate this theory.

I feel like you're getting a little swept-up.

The whole "chaos gods existed before they were born" thing has been canon for a while. It's cute, but it also doesn't really make enough sense to worry about much. We know gods can die because we've seen it happen (Slaanesh killing the eldar pantheon). This seems to at least take gods out of the picture for a period of time. Additionally, we know that gods' powers wax and wane, and it's implied that there are caps on how much influence they can have in certain times and places.

Which, taken all together, means that nothing is really set in stone because the rules are too vague and loose.

My headcanon attempt to rationalize this sort of thing is to basically say that:
A.) Time is more like space for warp entities. In that you can go to different times, but you have to burn calories walking there, and you won't be everywhere at once.

B.) Despite some quotes claiming otherwise, warp entities *do* seem beholden to some amount of causality, if only because of the symbolic/metaphorical weight of actions. If you beat up a greater daemon, he generally stays defeated for at least a while. We don't see greater daemons perpetually respawning every time they get knocked down.

Have you read E&D p2? Because if not then we can't really discuss this topic without spoilers.

It could also be that the nature of the Emp's as a Warp God would confine its actions.

If the Emperor were, for example, to become the God of Order, then by its very nature, it may not be able to create a paradox. Much like in the same way Khorne won't be singing kumbaya and flinging around magic.

I'd think a god of order might be especially *good* at paradoxes. Neatly sealing off any violations of causality in their own little loops.

Haven't read the End and Death, but not surprised at all how they've taken the story. I love Chaos, but they made the Chaos Gods ever existing, these beings who already existed and have no end. And everything that happens in the universe is willed by whatever it is and all have no free will, it is predestined to happen.

It's pretty much BS.

Free will absolutely exists, among mortals.

The Emperor refuses the prophecy of the Dark King for god's sake.

Some events cannot be altered, such as the death of Curze and Sanguinius but the rest of time is not set in stone. Events can be influenced to produce certain outcomes, it's how the Craftworlds go to war.

It won't ever be repeated enough but 40k being what it is, it leaves room for theories to be imagined and for you to accept them or not, so if you don't like it, ditch it. Seems pretty wonky to me as well.

I like to think that we have no proper understanding of Chaos, and things like "past" and "future" have no real meaning there.
So I don't worry about this stuff too much. It's just beyond our comprehension and doesn't follow rules that you can infer from.

They do and they don't. Once a God or Daemon has been created, it exists in the Warp which in turn exists outside the flow of normal time.

However, that does not make everything inevitable that occurs within the Warp, case in point is the Emperor refusing the Dark King prophecy and instead purging himself of the parts of his soul that would cause it to come to pass which is how we get the Emperor we all know and "love".

WWW-STL wrote:


The theory in the latest novel ‘The End and The Death’will make the struggles and sacrifices of countless mortals meaningless. Everything has already happened, everything is God's decide, everything depends on God's will.---------- "The Emperor firmly denies that he is a god and forbade people from worshiping him because he hopes that humans can rely on their own efforts and struggles s instead of begging and relying on God's mercy and help like beggars."——NO MORE NOW!this is no longer the case!

.

How it makes struggle more meaningless when humanity is doomed from the get-go?

As is humans in 40k have always been doomed. That's the whole point. Struggle against innvitable even when it'shopkless.

god emperor is not changing things. Humans dead. Chaos ultimately wins. Gg.

Don't see how dark king changes that. How isit more meaningful to struggle your way to inevitable death of entire mankind either way?

I would say the opposite, the Dark king and his flinging off part oh himself is the small glimmer of hope that will end the pre destinism, there is a new god forming or has formed by the time 40k comes around so possibly it can stop the inevitable win for the gods.

But does it ultimately matter, no, because the 40k universe is just one universe the gods inhabit, if they lose there they move onto another.

tneva82 wrote:

WWW-STL wrote:


The theory in the latest novel ‘The End and The Death’will make the struggles and sacrifices of countless mortals meaningless. Everything has already happened, everything is God's decide, everything depends on God's will.---------- "The Emperor firmly denies that he is a god and forbade people from worshiping him because he hopes that humans can rely on their own efforts and struggles s instead of begging and relying on God's mercy and help like beggars."——NO MORE NOW!this is no longer the case!

.

How it makes struggle more meaningless when humanity is doomed from the get-go?

As is humans in 40k have always been doomed. That's the whole point. Struggle against innvitable even when it'shopkless.

god emperor is not changing things. Humans dead. Chaos ultimately wins. Gg.

Don't see how dark king changes that. How isit more meaningful to struggle your way to inevitable death of entire mankind either way?

Formosa wrote:I would say the opposite, the Dark king and his flinging off part oh himself is the small glimmer of hope that will end the pre destinism, there is a new god forming or has formed by the time 40k comes around so possibly it can stop the inevitable win for the gods.

But does it ultimately matter, no, because the 40k universe is just one universe the gods inhabit, if they lose there they move onto another.

Speaking from an eldar perspective, I really like theYnnead/Ynnari lore because it creates a longshot glimmer of hope for my space elves to be fighting for. I don't necessarily want to see them actually get a happy ending, but fighting *for* that potential better future is just way more interesting than going through the motions of delaying the inevitable.

Watching our armies flail against the darkness is way more fun when they can believe it all matters somehow.

But that's the thing - Everything has already happened. Not only in fictional game settings, but in real life. That's my belief on the topic, anyway. I've read stuff written by boffins who think about this stuff for a living, and some of them seem to think that time is just a continuation of events that always unfolds in a specific way, it is immutable and utterly causal. You will always take the same actions, and the same things will always result. Your opinions about this process do not matter (for your opinions were always going to develop and change over time as they appear to you now)

Now this doesn't mean that we should all just give up and stop doing anything. It in fact means the reverse, we must keep on doing what we are doing, all is going "just as planned". It just means you dont need to worry, and you can stop second guessing your past decisions. You were always going to roll that one at that specific time. Enjoy the ride. Tzcheench is real

at the end of The End and The Death,Emperor stop his ascension.--------But in the previous plot, he had refused to use the power of the Dark King-----and he could use it if he wanted to,and he did it for once.and in the finale,Emperor stop his ascension and enjoy his nearly eternal torment in the golden throne,and every day a tons of Psykers must be sacrificed to maintain he and mankind's survive.


So what does this mean?

A.the Emperor already the Dark King at the time or almost about to be,so he can use the power of Dark King

B.the Emperor ALWAY BEEN the Dark King but he just refuse to be-------so he was a Chaos God but conversion to be a good guy(?)

C.the Empeor and The Dark King are some entity but different individual,The Dark King, who was born in the distant future, interfered with the past just like Skynet sent the Terminators to promote his own birth (and Mr Samus was the Terminator he sent), because it is said that "once a chaos god is born, he exists in the past, present and future."(although i think this is a BS theory and break many world tone)

D.The birth of the Dark King is inevitable, but not necessarily the Emperor, and if Horus wins, he becomes the Black King. It doesn't matter who wins, what matters is that the guy doesn't stop his own ascension.