http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/6.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net
[quote]From two posts by turelhim vampire at The Bolter and Chainsword:

I don’t know if this has already been mentioned but I don’t have time to scrawl though 38 pages whilst I am at work. I just got off the phone with a GW employee – this was from ringing GW mail order at Nottingham - who had the book in front of him and gleaned a few tid bits.

Salamanders Special Character:
NOT Tu’shan – his name is Vulkan Estan he is the ex-4th Company Captain and is a kind of wandering champion. Apparently he has almost inquisition like leverage over the Salamander Chapter, as his task is to seek out and recover 9 holy relics made by Vulkan before he disappeared. Apparently if all 9 are recovered Vulkan will return. Estan has recovered 3 and is using them. One is a Salamander Hide Cloak, one is a Gauntlet which counts as a Heavy Flamer and allows him to re-roll to wound. The third is the Spear of Vulkan - a S6 master crafted power weapon.

On top of this he allows any and all Salamanders in the army to replace their “vanilla” Combat Tactics with the Salamanders version – they get Master Crafted Thunder Hammers for free. All Melta/flamer weapons in the army, no matter their source, count as twin linked – also for free.

In addition (this is a general marine rule) Storm Shields now grant a 3+ Inv. Save against shooting and combat. And all Salamanders Terminator Assault squads come with them, and there thunder hammers are master crafted if Estan is present.


Also I heard the Spearhead will include:
Codex
Drop pod
Telion
Cantor
Sicarius
Tank Commander character
Scout Bikes
5 Vanguard
5 Sternguard
1x Speeder (could be a storm)


Just thought I’d contribute.

Second Post:

Right, now work is over and I can talk in some depth, here is what I was told:

-The special characters are designed to be taken by any chapter using "counts as" rules.
-If you give a commander a bike, bike squads are troops.
-Tac squads can have any number of marines - from 5 to 10, but can only have special/heavy weapons if you take a full 10 man squad. They can be split into combat squads during deployment. To make up for the "must have 10 for special/heavies" rule flamers, missile launchers, multi-meltas and heavy bolters are now FREE - you only pay points to take the rest of the options.
-Drop pod assault: Half the drop pods deploy on turn 1 - these half have "deployment beacons" that allow the rest (held as reserves) to come in more accurately. Tac squads choose to deploy as combat squads AFTER they land.
-Scouts in all their forms (including the storm) infiltrate in one of two ways - normally or can come in as reserves from ANY table edge and get to use their free "scout" move when they arrive. Scouts are still troops - Marine Airbourne Cavalry of Doom anyone?
-3 Dread options - Standard, Venerable, and Ironclad - all separate elite entries. Venerables are back to how they used to be and have WS/BS 5. Ironclads have 13/13/10 armour, can take 2x DCCW, Hurricane bolter, twin linked heavy flamer, and some others, I forget now. It also has a rule which could be a weapon option called the "seismic hammer" which counts as a thunder hammer and allows difficult terrain tests to be re-roll as it batters terrain out of the way.
-Dreads are crazy now weapons include - Assault Cannon, Multi Melta, twin Heavy Bolters, twin Heavy Flamers, twin las cannon, twin autocannon, plasma cannon, DCCW, Missile Launcher, and maybe more I have forgotten. Oh, and AT LEAST the twin autocannon can be purchased for BOTH arms.
-Sternguard vets have DW style ammo, 2 can take special/heavies/special CCW - Including HEAVY FLAMERS. biggrin.gif For +5pts each they can also take ANY combi weapon - and still keep the specialist ammo type.
-Vanguard vets are similar but are combat-heavy and can have jump packs as an option. Interestingly, they can be further upgraded to "Honour Guard" if you take a Company Master.
-Scouts and Characters can take Combi-Grenade launchers, which are the same as they used to be but are now RAPID FIRE.
-Crusader is now cheaper but does not come with the multi-melta - but this can be purchased as a pintle mounted weapon - possible for ALL land raiders. Redeemer flame cannons are S6 AP3 but are NOT inferno cannons - the template has to touch the weapon - however the machine spirit now allows each weapon on the raider to fire at a separate target.
-There are 13 special characters in total. White Scars character confirmed. No model as yet for him or Vulkan.

Thats all I can remember.
[/quote]

Pure [color=red][i][b]hate [/b][/i][/color]from me, shocked that the same design team that gave us the new CSM codex - which I can deal with and have even learned to like - turned around and amped the freaking hell out of the SM codex

- Salvage [img]http://people.virginia.edu/~hdg9r/vomication.gif[/img]

EDIT -- Feel free to start discrediting stuff from this list, it smells so damn wishlisty that I want it to all be wrong. It just seems late in the game is all, with the codex right around the corner ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324466.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324466.page GMT
not to mention that it would be WAY overpowered! unless their costs went way up I couldn't see this much crap happening

NaZ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324470.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324470.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324471.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324471.page GMT SM's FTW and CSM's are nothing more than 10K year old geriatric patients.

Marines should be powerful, but this sounds like a little too much, although the munchkin in me is pretty stoked on the possibilities!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324476.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324476.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324480.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324480.page GMT
I am sure that most of the new stuff will be expensive- in fact, I imagine that almost every non- tactical squad unit in the book gets a moderate price hike, to go along with its buff. They are pretty serious about getting back to the basics and having troops be the most important thing. While the design of 5th ed in general does this, I expect them to accelerate the trend with codex design.

It is interesting to me that all the dark blades from the poor old Chaos codex have somehow made their way into imperial hands. Doesn't the White Scar character have one too? A moon-powered butter knife or something, if I remember the name right. Hopefully the librarians will get some sort of strength boost from their weapons or whatever, to help them cope with the force-weapon nerf a palooza. At a points cost, obviously.

Aside from the hellfire rounds, and the generalized buffing of ordo templates, it seems like their big power boosts have come in the anti-elite categories, which I really like, as it tailors the army thematically. The new details really make them seem like a nice change since in the current codex, the best way to win was heavy weapon spam with a big CC counter attack, or just to flood the field with power armored bodies. The new codex seems like it will make them more elite and expensive-- they can do any job, but there are never enough of them. A very welcome change in my opinion. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324484.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324484.page GMT
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324486.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324486.page GMT

If a Commander takes a BZike rule for instance. Gold

LR shooting at Multiple Targets. Gold

Pintle Mounted MM. Gold.

Ahhh- I love my Marines all over again.

Need to buy a few Dreads now.......
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324488.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324488.page GMT las/plas squads anymore? I can see adding some new units and options, but how about not totally making three legendary chapters look like total sissies by comparison.

Like the scouts having the special rule that lets them show up on any table edge... Dark Angel scouts are still going to be rolling on the chart. This is why Chapter Approved is necessary, so that if they actually do half of this goofy crap then at least let all of the marine chapters do it, so you don't invalidate three entire codexii]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324489.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324489.page GMT
But, I'll believe it all when the book is in my hands.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324491.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324491.page GMT If all this stuff becomes true I think marines will go up to atleast 20 points a piece, and those characters will be in the 200s.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324493.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324493.page GMT 2) Free Missile Launchers sounds cool.
3) I want a $20 refund on my Dark Angels codex.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324494.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324494.page GMT
Oh well, glad I didn't sell my Marine army...

And is it just me or do scouts sound amazing now?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324507.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324507.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324509.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324509.page GMT *Looks at shelf full of Marines and Land Raiders*[/b]




[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v694/AgeOfEgos/leonscream4bl-1.gif[/img]]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324514.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324514.page GMT
Sure.

BYE]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324524.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324524.page GMT CSM player are summed up with this GIF. (some of you may have seen it before)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324530.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324530.page GMT I just threw up in my mouth. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324533.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324533.page GMT
Downshot of the above? Amongst them, ridiculousness of CA and C:CSM will be around for years until they too get redone. I suppose at the very least C:Chaos Legions is going to be HOLYHELLMYFACE fanfreakingtastic. You know, with codex creep and such

- Salvage]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324535.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324535.page GMT

Also, RAGE!
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/Jesper851027/1211450517493.jpg[/IMG]]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324537.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324537.page GMT
but interesting.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324543.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324543.page GMT


Marines pay for advantages?

Deadshane made a funny!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324548.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324548.page GMT


Marines pay for advantages?

Deadshane made a funny![/quote]

Well...assuming that Phil Kelly didnt write this codex, it may not be loaded with awesomeness!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324551.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324551.page GMT OTT.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324615.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324615.page GMT
But considering DA and CSM codexes were written with 5th Ed in mind, is it really so silly to think GW will make marine players pay a points penalty for this cool new stuff?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324630.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324630.page GMT tac marine goes up to 17 points a piece. If you have to have 10 men to get them, then thats 20 extra points over a current ten man squad, which sounds reasonable. Then you've got the "may upgrade ML to lascannon for 5 points" or something to that effect, making it cost the same as it does now. Hopefully that's how it is.... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324639.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324639.page GMT SM's FTW and CSM's are nothing more than 10K year old geriatric patients. [/quote]

As it will and should be!

[quote]
Marines should be powerful, but this sounds like a little too much, although the munchkin in me is pretty stoked on the possibilities![/quote]

Wait for the price,we know what they've done with the DA-minidex. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324644.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324644.page GMT
You should do this,Salli Thunderhammers count as "mastercrafted" then and didn't lose their attack for second CCW. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324645.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324645.page GMT
was it foreseeable =
anyone looked around and not surprised yet =

The first changes to marines are in the actual 5th ed rulebook :

look at the chart for marines at the last pages (290) and you get that chaplains and librarians were redone.

2004 = chaplain: 5,5,4,4,2,5,2,9,3+ / 5,5,4,4,3,5,3,10,3+ librarian: identical stats

2008 = chaplain: 4,4,4,4,2,4,2,10,3+ librarian: 5,4,4,4,2,4,2,9,3+

For DA = old rules from dex: DA

The chaplains lose on CC and shooting a point ! librarians lose only at shooting one!

This is not a little change.Maybe last only until fall when the dex is out.


No dex for BA and SW now,but will be [b]after[/b] SM, makes DA and BT cry,but hey,GW may think of a new chapter approved book




]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324649.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324649.page GMT SMs too good because if they did, everyone will want to play them.

At the moment it is a refreshing change of pace to find an SM army among the endles hordes of IG, DE, Necrons and so on.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324662.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324662.page GMT SMs too good because if they did, everyone will want to play them.

At the moment it is a refreshing change of pace to find an SM army among the endles hordes of IG, DE, Necrons and so on.[/quote]

Bandwagon jumpers happen with every new codex, so you really shouldn't be surprised there.

Geez guys. This thread is made completely out of knee-jerk reactions. More than most threads here.

There have been a couple people on that same thread that seem to validate most of the rumours though. So get your hankies, because your crying circle is going to need a fresh supply.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324696.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324696.page GMT
A mail order troll as a reliable source? COME ON, people. Let's get some perspective here.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324701.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324701.page GMT
A mail order troll as a reliable source? COME ON, people. Let's get some perspective here.[/quote]
Point to you Iorek, and maybe my knee was jerking pretty hard on this one. How long until Codex: Space Marines drops though? I'm excited / interested / afraid to see what actually happens in those hundres of pages

- Salvage]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324709.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324709.page GMT
Come on!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324714.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324714.page GMT then I know what my sisters are gonna count as.

Hmm... Now what would Battle Sister Terminator armour look like? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324721.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324721.page GMT
Hence I really dig the rumors. Plenty of coolness and flavor and options are back, yet it sounds pretty certain the toys add up!

Looks like my Crescent Guard are getting plenty of reinforcements this fall WONDERFUL!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324729.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324729.page GMT seems wai to mutch only thing I heart was that a standart marine woud have a bolter bolt pistol frag and krak granades]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324730.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324730.page GMT
Okay, now that that's over with, this is about as reliable as the Pan Fo being reviled or plastic Cadians. Frankie says relax.

Having said that, SM are going to get uber (though maybe not this wish list) because they're marines, because old habits die hard, and as a result, people will continue to tool their lists up to deal with MEqs, which means any of the 'fixes' that were meant to make 5th better will be for naught. [/old-school rant]

Now go play some Warmachine. Or Fantasy. Or Gloire! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324735.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324735.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324737.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324737.page GMT If I know what you play and bring enough kiddies to start this army too,you will drop what you [b]wanted[/b] and play
something else to evade little kiddies?

@syr8766:

Why play anything else ?

uber marines for the win ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324744.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324744.page GMT WS/BS 4? I was hoping that rumor was not true, i wonder what the reasoning is? to make masters the uber CC character in the book?

this is making me really curious to see what pans out.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324753.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324753.page GMT WS/BS 4? I was hoping that rumor was not true, i wonder what the reasoning is? to make masters the uber CC character in the book?

this is making me really curious to see what pans out.[/quote]

It's been pretty much discounted. The source of the rumour is the quick reference guide in the back of the 5th Ed. Rulebook....which if IIRC is full of errors.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324760.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324760.page GMT
Everything else will probably come hand in hand with a healthy increase in price, and I can't imagine the new land raider or IC dreads being cheap at all. And I highly doubt any of the special characters that give army wide bonus' being sub 200 pts. Though who knows, maybe its a overblown ultradex that will crush evrything else. I can't see the future. Spehz mareens are supposed to be a low model count high power army, if they raise the price of every model in the book I'll be happier for it.

Also rage.
[img]http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8022/1209352006158ed3.png[/img]]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324761.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324761.page GMT SM dex 2004 and rulebook 2008:

all stats on normal order!

...............................SM 2004...........................5th ed 2008

techmarine_____=>____4,4,4,4,2,4,2,9,3+_________4,4,4,4,1,4,1,8,2+

honorguard=
commandsquad?_=>____4,4,4,4,1,4,1,8,3+_________4,4,4,4,1,4,2,10,2+

apothecary______=>____4,4,4,4,1,4,1,8,3+_________4,4,4,4,1,4,2,9,3+

The chart in the rulebook has no vets,but honorguard.Don't know if this is identic.
The upgrade apothecary is a entry in the rulebook,maybe rules like the techmarine to add him ?
Honorguard has [b]two[/b] attacks, morale 10 and a save 2+
Techmarine lost an attack,a morale point and got a 2+ save
Captains have a 4+ invul save now


Should be every change I've seen.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324763.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324763.page GMT
I mean, it sounds cool (customizable!!!), but I doubt it...i mean that everything will happen.

Greets
Schepp himself]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324777.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324777.page GMT -The special characters are designed to be taken by any chapter using "counts as" rules.
-If you give a commander a bike, bike squads are troops.
-Tac squads
-Drop pod assault:
-3 Dread options - Standard, Venerable, and Ironclad
-Sternguard vets have DW style ammo, 2 can take special/heavies/special CCW
-Vanguard vets are similar but are combat-heavy and can have jump packs as an option.
-Combi-Grenade launchers,
-Crusader is now cheaper but does not come with the multi-melta - but this can be purchased as a pintle mounted weapon - -There are 13 special characters in total. White Scars character confirmed. No model as yet for him or Vulkan.
[/quote]

Overall, while this sounds like a big change in power (upward), I don't think it's what many people seem to think. And most of this will depend on points costs, which haven't yet been revealed. Also, which bodes really well for IG, is that the SM are being rebalanced a bit more toward center with a more equal balance of fighty units and options to complement their current shooty options.

Also, I notice that the bulk of sexy stuff is non-Scoring non-Troops. In particular, the Elites slots compete very heavily, so this is excellent army design, taken from how Fantasy Specials tend to compete very heavily.

The Special Characters and HQ options (Bikes) sound like they're the new Traits, and the 0-2 HQ limitation and Chapter requirement likely does a good job of keeping things from getting out of hand.

The Tac squad rule is a good balance against the old 5-10 and the newer Combat Squads, but really is unfortunate that GW didn't force Combat Squads on all SM. Combat Squads are distinctive and a fair trade against limited size options.

The new plastic Drop Pod model won't sell itself, so the Daemons-like rules tweak to let half arrive turn 1 is obvious. It amuses me that Daemonstrike is bad but Podstrike is good, when the rule seems to be the same.

The Dreads are a nod to the new simple plastic model in the starter set. Gotta collect more! But as they're Elites and compete with starter Termies, along with Vets, I don't see the problem. You get 3 slots for cool, expensive Non-Scoring models. Go nuts guys!

Sternguard are basically the same as now, but making DW obsolete. I wonder what the points bump will be. Vanguard are basically the same as BA Honor Guard, and I wonder if they will be costed similarly, with mandatory Vet Sergeants for each.

Combi-Grenade Launchers are nice, but I kind of miss the 2E launchers.

Crusader didn't really need a points cut, even with the Multi-Melta drop. It'll be nice to see what happens if/when Inquisition gets redone.

[quote=Boss_Salvage]
Pure [color=red][i][b]hate [/b][/i][/color]from me, shocked that the same design team that gave us the new CSM codex - which I can deal with and have even learned to like - turned around and amped the freaking hell out of the SM codex [/quote]
When you consider that SM had to lose "Traits", but still be protected as the sole source of GW profit, the Codex makes a lot of sense.

In comparision to the CSM Codex, Chaos has a lot more and better Troops options with CSM, Cult Marines, and Daemons; SM has Tacs, Scouts, and Bikes (which was a mistake - White Scars should have been forced to play as Ravenwing). SM have better Elites, which trade of fewer slots and Non-Scoring. I don't see a significant power shift here, but I suspect the sexy new options are going to drive SM army model count down, in the same way that the CSM got a bit pricier.


[quote=NaZ]would totally wipe out the point of blood angels, black templar, and dark angels if basic marines are that crazy good.[/quote]
Blood Angels are the only way to get Assault Marines as Troops, along with Death Company. DA are still the only way to get Termies as Troops. And Templars are still the only guys with the throwback structures allowing Troops to take Heavies with less than 10 SM. But yeah, more homogenization and fewr options would have been better.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324791.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324791.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324792.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324792.page GMT
A mail order troll as a reliable source? COME ON, people. Let's get some perspective here.[/quote]

Listen to the Panzerbjorne! Mail Order Trollz aren't even capable of adjudicating simple rules questions. You think someone really found one that decided to sit on the phone with a copy of the new Marine Dex and give away the keys to the castle? No way.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324802.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324802.page GMT
Twinlinked Heavy Bolter and Autocannons are old designs,available in dex SM 1998 and the last DA dex.
No GW-parts for it,but FW for sure!



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324804.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324804.page GMT

Having said that, SM are going to get uber (though maybe not this wish list) because they're marines, because old habits die hard, and as a result, people will continue to tool their lists up to deal with MEqs, which means any of the 'fixes' that were meant to make 5th better will be for naught. [/old-school rant]
[/quote]

Marines (generic, Ultra, non-BA) were pretty pants in 3rd, weren't they?

[quote=JohnHwangDD]
Blood Angels are the only way to get Assault Marines as Troops, along with Death Company. DA are still the only way to get Termies as Troops. And Templars are still the only guys with the throwback structures allowing Troops to take Heavies with less than 10 SM. But yeah, more homogenization and fewr options would have been better.
[/quote]

The BA for Assault as Troops and DC, DA for Termis as Troops and BT for old school structure - yes.

"more homogenization and fewer options would have been better" - no.

Apparently, even GW has learned this lesson, and smartened up just in time.

Maybe.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324805.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324805.page GMT
I mean, it sounds cool (customizable!!!), but I doubt it...i mean that everything will happen.

Greets
Schepp himself[/quote]

imperial armour dreads have dose choses I em ordering me a new chapine dreadnought whit twinlinked autocanon ( juist love the look of it )]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324807.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324807.page GMT ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324834.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324834.page GMT GW would make it that easy for SM to have late-game scoring units like that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324842.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324842.page GMT [/quote]

I was thinking Raider-X/Rifleman...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324851.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324851.page GMT GW would make it that easy for SM to have late-game scoring units like that.[/quote]

you will buy the landspeeder from fast-attack with the scouts then at max 5 scouts in.
Makes a 1 choice per slot option,not a land speeder squad as standard/tornado/typhoon.Can live with that.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324853.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324853.page GMT If I know what you play and bring enough kiddies to start this army too,you will drop what you [b]wanted[/b] and play
something else to evade little kiddies?
[/quote]

I dont mind sharing an army choice with kiddies. What I do mind is having teh borkan chapter, it sours the background. Sallies are a distinct case, they were always fluffy and a tad underpowered, but not so much as to spoil the list.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324904.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/324904.page GMT Blood Angels are the only way to get Assault Marines as Troops, along with Death Company. DA are still the only way to get Termies as Troops. And Templars are still the only guys with the throwback structures allowing Troops to take Heavies with less than 10 SM. But yeah, more homogenization and fewr options would have been better.
[/quote]

The BA for Assault as Troops and DC, DA for Termis as Troops and BT for old school structure - yes.

"more homogenization and fewer options would have been better" - no.

Apparently, even GW has learned this lesson, and smartened up just in time.

Maybe.[/quote]
Sorry, gotta disagree. The more "niche" each army is, the more distinctive it is. It allows other armies to be much stronger in their respective niches, so they have stronger flavor in style of play. If SM were more iconic with stricter SM standard rules, and a narrower niche of capability, then CSM, BT, BA, etc. automatically become more distinctive. Creating a way for Bikes as Troops for example, is a terrible idea because it competes directly with DA Ravenwing. Now, GW is back to the foolishness of trying to split hairs and create narrow distinctions instead of having clear differences.

Yeah, until these rumors, I thought GW learned something from their WFB Army Books, but apparently not.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325031.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325031.page GMT
Wow, glad I'm not a Chaos player.



So yeah, Legends, huh?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325034.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325034.page GMT
I don't beleive this vitriol, it goes against the flow of things thus far...and at the comatose pace of GW development a change in direction this sudden would be a death throw. I don't see it. There is a few key points that have been grabbed (that can be sourced already from any of the forums) and planted in to give the rest of the crap more credence.

I'm calling outright BS minus the stuff stolen from other sources.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325041.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325041.page GMT
In fact, I think, if anything, the price of a basic Marine should drop. I think 13 pts would keep the army relatively balanced. And lots of the other options need to come down in price too. Take the Ironclad dread for example. Sure, it sounds good, but that rear armor 10 is a killer. If someone Deepstrikes behind you, it's game over. I wouldn't be surprised if they get a price drop too. The price in the current Marine Dex isn't really in line with how fragile dreadnoughts are. I'm also happy to see Venerables go back to WS and BS 5. They were overcosted in the current Dex.

Sure, you can say that the new Dex as presented here, even if it just breaks even with the current one, still leaves DA, BA, and BTs as weak in comparison. That may be true, but I think the fluff can totally justify it. I mean, the reason that all those other Chapters deviated from the Codex Astartes, which the Ultras follow more or less to a T, was because they had inferior geneseed. I think it makes perfect sense for the Ultras and their pure successors to be the most powerful, fluffwise anyway. But as I said before, even if all these rumors are true, Marines will be lucky to break even compared to the current Dex. If they really want to make them a playable, much less a competitive army, I think point cuts across the board are definitely in order. Heck, with Orks as cheap as they are for their statline, I wouldn't be opposed to 12 or even 11 pt Marines.

Am I right or am I right?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325055.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325055.page GMT CSM's and Orks. This sounds like it could be it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325061.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325061.page GMT BT are weak at all.

They can still spam assault cannons and get min maxed lasplas. The only thing they really miss out on Devasator squads.

12 pt marines is insane though. Stormtroopers/Sisters are 10.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325072.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325072.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325075.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325075.page GMT Pass me a shovel of sodium chloride will ya! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325142.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325142.page GMT GW for the most part balances the point values of models and upgrades internally, not externally.

Sisters are 11 btw.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325149.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325149.page GMT
Yesterday I was sitting around and a Mail Order Troll called me and told me that regular Space Marines would be free (points-wise) and that you would only have to pay points for heavy weapons! Of course to make up for this [b]Great Deal![/b] Tactical Squad boxed sets are being [i]adjusted[/i] to $50 a box.

I'm not sure but his voice sounded kind of like Andy Chambers, so I assumed he had checked his facts.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325153.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325153.page GMT
Not a chance. Someone will [b]always[/b] buy marine kits.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325177.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325177.page GMT
Not a chance. Someone will [b]always[/b] buy marine kits.[/quote]

HURR! Hey kidz?! Likes yerself soem spase marienz? Tehy r teh awesomest! U can be like Master Chief and Solid Snake! Tehy alwayz get the bestest rules!!!1!!2!!three!!

Seriously, if y'all believe this, you've been
[img]http://msp4.photobucket.com/albums/y106/toasty0z/powned.jpg[/img]]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325182.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325182.page GMT
Basically the rules are:
Against aliens and Chaos the marines automatically win [i]after[/i] deployment, unless Horus is included in the Chaos army (see the upcoming Chaos Legion-specific codices, coming in the future!)

Against other Imperial armies (Marines, IG, Witch Hunters, etc.) the Emperor's presence makes them realize it's silly to fight each other and both sides hug and win!

Also, Space Marine armies with teh Emperor get all their heavy weapons for free, because the Space Emperor has so many Space Bucks, that all the heavy weapons are on him! Drinks after the game are on you, however.


Personally I think he'll probably be way over-costed.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325184.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325184.page GMT
Only a little bit, 40,000 points is still being mighty generous though.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325188.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325188.page GMT
Basically the rules are:
Against aliens and Chaos the marines automatically win [i]after[/i] deployment, unless Horus is included in the Chaos army (see the upcoming Chaos Legion-specific codices, coming in the future!)

Against other Imperial armies (Marines, IG, Witch Hunters, etc.) the Emperor's presence makes them realize it's silly to fight each other and both sides hug and win!

Also, Space Marine armies with teh Emperor get all their heavy weapons for free, because the Space Emperor has so many Space Bucks, that all the heavy weapons are on him! Drinks after the game are on you, however.


Personally I think he'll probably be way over-costed.[/quote]

[i]I[/i] heard they won't even need to field teh Emporor (though he'd be fun in apocalypse!), because of a new special rule:

Special Rule: HURR!!
After deployment, but before the game begins, the Space Marine player rolls a d6 on the following chart:
1-3 Reroll
4 Marine player wins
5 Marine player wins and gets to keep opponent's army
6 Marine player wins, gets to keep opponent's army, and opponent has to give marine player $5

If both players are fielding Space Marine armies, then they roll on this chart:
1 reroll
2-6 Space Marines HURR!! Both players win maximum victory points and are given $10 by the GW store to go out for chocolate chip pancakes and/or real fruit smoothies. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325193.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325193.page GMT HQs are out, and all of them can only contest. That isn't so horrible when you get right down to it.
The HQs = traits thing is interesting at least. It might become a bit overpowered, since I am certain there is at least one combination that didn't get play tested enough for the "Holy crap, they can do THAT?!" to come out, but it probably makes for less mix and match horror than traits could produce. Plus it seems likely that they will be expensive to the point that min/maxing will be a bit more difficult. It costs nothing to get extra special weapons currently, for example, but paying say 200 points to get that is a bit steep. Maybe not though, depending on how buff the special HQs prove to be.

Honestly though, I think the free "lesser" special/heavy weapons are an interesting option. Consider how often one really sees flamers, heavy bolters or missile launchers in tactical squads in tournaments. Yea, you see them in fun armies around the shop, but they are not deemed "competitive", generally because the total cost of ownership is considered too high compared to their effectiveness. This has been done to death in the tactics forum, but suffice to say it is like taking grenade launchers on IG: yes, they are better than a lasgun, but the points cost is not so much lower than a plasma gun to make it worth taking.
However, if they are free, it means people will use them, perhaps as an afterthought. When mixed with combat squads and a required 10 men to pull it off, the total cost of ownership probably becomes just about equal to previously, but now you are only trading the utility of a bolter for that of a flamer, say.

I do very much wish they had come up with this back before they did the Chaos or DA/BA codexes though. It's a good idea whose time had come, but it came some two years ago.


However, I would like to add my vote to the "real fruit smoothies" column. I was looking to buy a car the past few weeks, and was routinely offered free coffee and soda; smoothies would make GW toys feel more like the luxury item they are
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325220.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325220.page GMT IG: yes, they are better than a lasgun, but the points cost is not so much lower than a plasma gun to make it worth taking.
However, if they are free, it means people will use them, perhaps as an afterthought. When mixed with combat squads and a required 10 men to pull it off, the total cost of ownership probably becomes just about equal to previously, but now you are only trading the utility of a bolter for that of a flamer, say.
[/quote]
Frankly I was looking forward to tactical squads going the way of C:BA (and probably CA though I can't say for sure):

4 marines + veteran = X points
Add 5 marines = +Y points
5 man squad = 1 flamer (5), melta (10), plasma (15)
10 man squad = 1 flamer (5), melta (10), plasma (15) & 1 heavy bolter (10), missile launcher (10), multi-melta (10), plasma cannon (15), lascannon (20)

Nice, structured codex astartes feel to it, and recognizes the differences in the special and heavy weapons as reflected in the points. Free weapons is a braindead option unless marines cost 20 points a pop. For IG I could see it though, considering they ARE their specilized weapons.

- Salvage]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325241.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325241.page GMT Consider how you pointed out that Sisters are great vs. daemons because they pretty much HAVE to take flamers since plasma/lascannons are not an option. Nearly every army that can take plasma does, shunning the other specials in the process, because for the price it is staggeringly more effective 90% of the time. Mauleed pattern Marines is pretty much the standard of "UBAR" for just that reason.

Now, ignore your general list making tendancies. You, and to a lesser extent I, are not the sort of list builder these changes are designed for. Consider instead Studder. When was the last time you saw a plague marine with a flamer? You and I generally build lists in terms of "I like this and the way it plays out in the movie in my head. Nekkid S&M chicks with giant chainsaws ROCK." Most serious players think in terms of "The benefit/cost of getting a flamer in a squad that requires 10 men is less than that of plasma, because at best you are killing X MEQ/point for one vs. the other." ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325262.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325262.page GMT GW creature at Games Day walk up to his army, look at the 7-man squads and ask why he runs 7 in each squad. He said it was fluffy and that's that, and the guy laughed and said GW totally f-ed up with that sacred number stuff and he was glad it was gone ...

Uh, what?!

Anyway, I think making any free special or heavy weapons is just not how 40k works, though I know other games do this with SAWs and whatever for squads (often bought at a set size). Flamers aren't taken in foot infantry often because of the limits of 6" movement vs 12" assault, but there-in we see the benefits of transports to, well, transport shorter range weapons in for the kill. And add in the benefits 5th gives to hordes and the need for anti-horde weapons goes up. 5 points for a flamer? A steal I say, but it's just a more situational weapon than the other options.

And back to the start of your post, it seemed to me that 5 guys = free flamer or pay to upgrade it. 10 guys = free flamer, free heavy (from the list), pay to upgrade them.

I'll also inject here the abilities of combat squads to make special and heavy weapons better at what they do (in the case of the more specialized weapons - flamers for closer support, meltas to hunt tank, lascannons to kill tanks). THAT is the benefit to marines for taking 10 dudes: access to a heavy weapon and the ability to split a squad up to make the best use of what it has been armed with. Chaos? 10 guys gets us a heavy weapon. End.

- Salvage]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325267.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325267.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325297.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325297.page GMT GW creature at Games Day walk up to his army, look at the 7-man squads and ask why he runs 7 in each squad. He said it was fluffy and that's that, and the guy laughed and said GW totally f-ed up with that sacred number stuff and he was glad it was gone ...[/quote]

Statements like that make make baby Jeebus cry. You'll notice the 7 below.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325298.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325298.page GMT 40k olympics.

You can even replicate Ravenwing with the new SM dex.

At least Blood Angels still get better Chaplains, Death Company, and Troop Assault Squads.

Also, any thoughts on a Drop Pod + Scouts army? If the Scouts work like that, then things could be pretty entertaining, IMO.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325304.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325304.page GMT
The benefit of horde armies (volume of fire > high quality shots and scoring system) makes blast weapons better...so you have better rules. How much do you pay for Heavy bolters nowadays anyway? 5 pts in a squad? So what's the big deal with free ones?

What i fear is the spammability of basic tactical squads now, just fill your org chart with cheap HB squads and the rest with raiders, or is this unjustified?

The rest sounds pretty much awesome, I mean the space marine units (especially elites) are now a consideration when you build your list. I think this will be as good as the Eldar codex which had many units (almost all imo) which were playable.

Greets
Schepp himself]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325344.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325344.page GMT las cannon, twin autocannon, plasma cannon, DCCW, Missile Launcher, and maybe more I have forgotten. Oh, and AT LEAST the twin autocannon can be purchased for BOTH arms.[/quote]
I hope at least this bit is true. Mortis dreads look badass.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325375.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325375.page GMT
Eldrad, Avatar, Harlequins, Holo Falcons (plus dirt cheap Guardian jetbikes)

New Tyranid codex featured the following broken units:

Carnifexen as elite, bolter proof Genestealers, blah blah blah

New Ork codex featured the following broken units:

All special characters, Lootas, SAG, blah blah blah

G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325410.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325410.page GMT BA (and probably CA though I can't say for sure):

[SNIP C: BA-like costing]

Nice, structured codex astartes feel to it, and recognizes the differences in the special and heavy weapons as reflected in the points. Free weapons is a braindead option unless marines cost 20 points a pop. [/quote]
While I was also looking forward to something similar, the issue with SM is that you have a fairly high sunk cost of 165+ pts for the Veteran + 9 other suits of PA. The incremental cost of 5 or 10 points isn't just isn't high enough to make it worth taking Flamers over Plasma, given the slot being what it is. Same with the incremental cost of Lascannon over Missile Launcher. But when they become "FREE" (i.e. valued less than 5 pts), then the net incremental cost of taking Las or Plas increases to 15+ pts. A 35-pt net cost increase for Las/Plas is significant enough to actually matter in army building, which one presumes to have been the point of the change.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325415.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325415.page GMT MEQ/point for one vs. the other." [/quote]

Priceless! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325418.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325418.page GMT GW creature at Games Day walk up to his army, look at the 7-man squads and ask why he runs 7 in each squad. He said it was fluffy and that's that, and the guy laughed and said GW totally f-ed up with that sacred number stuff and he was glad it was gone ...

Uh, what?!
[/quote]

I am imagining the next frame of that scene was Studder grabbing the GW monkey by the neck, drawing his .45 and screaming something along the lines of "YOU SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH!" or alternately "TAKE IT BACK! I HATE YOU! YOU'RE NOT MY REAL DAD!"

[quote]
Anyway, I think making any free special or heavy weapons is just not how 40k works, though I know other games do this with SAWs and whatever for squads (often bought at a set size). Flamers aren't taken in foot infantry often because of the limits of 6" movement vs 12" assault, but there-in we see the benefits of transports to, well, transport shorter range weapons in for the kill. And add in the benefits 5th gives to hordes and the need for anti-horde weapons goes up. 5 points for a flamer? A steal I say, but it's just a more situational weapon than the other options.

And back to the start of your post, it seemed to me that 5 guys = free flamer or pay to upgrade it. 10 guys = free flamer, free heavy (from the list), pay to upgrade them.

I'll also inject here the abilities of combat squads to make special and heavy weapons better at what they do (in the case of the more specialized weapons - flamers for closer support, meltas to hunt tank, lascannons to kill tanks). THAT is the benefit to marines for taking 10 dudes: access to a heavy weapon and the ability to split a squad up to make the best use of what it has been armed with. Chaos? 10 guys gets us a heavy weapon. End.

- Salvage[/quote]

I see what you mean by this, and I partially agree. I think the problem is that to make flamers etc. valuable you either have to make the situations where their special rules really shine much more common, or make plasma and the like much more expensive.
Consider for instance how often you see the flamers in my foot girl squads fire. Once a game if they are lucky (or fighting daemons) or never if they are not. Those things cost half the price of a girl with a bolter, and I lose the bolter to get it. Depending on how the squad plays, if I sat back and fired, I might get just as many hits and wounds over the course of a game than if I ran forward, sacrificed 24" shooting, then rapid fired and flamed once, presumably before getting charged for my trouble. Most of the time it seems I get charged first.
Now, if 40k had "stand and shoot" as a response to being charged, then flamers would be hot poop. Alternately, if there were alternating phase sequences instead of IGOUGO, they would be better. As it stands, you are lucky to get the 5 points of benefit from them. (Seraphim, however, rock socks with flamers.)

As to your other point, about "free" upgrades not being 40k, please note that all imperial sgt.s can trade their base weapon (bolter or lasgun) for a pistol version and ccw for no extra cost. The assumption seems to be that both are equally valuable, just for different things. I would put forth that a flamer is just as good as a bolter, just for different things.

Now, about meltas/missiles, that I don't know.

I suppose the difference between 5 men/free special and 10 men/free special/heavy is pretty academic thanks to combat squads. Still, I think the "free upgrade" is only out of place due to the context of other codexes, which have very little of that, not so much in and of itself. Especially since the weapons chosen are those that are historically under utilized despite being practically free as is.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325425.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325425.page GMT
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325429.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325429.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325433.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325433.page GMT 40k, please note that all imperial sgt.s can trade their base weapon (bolter or lasgun) for a pistol version and ccw for no extra cost. The assumption seems to be that both are equally valuable, just for different things. [i]I would put forth that a flamer is just as good as a bolter, just for different things[/i].
[/quote]
I don't think the bolter vs bolt pistol + ccw is quite the same thing at all, as that has such a tiny tiny effect on how the rest of the squad performs on the battlefield. However the bit I emphasized is probably the best support for free flamers, especially when reversed: a bolter is just as good as a flamer, just for different things. For the record, I'm not against the free flamers, I think that's a fine and groovy thing and will almost always be upgraded anyway. What I'm against are free heavy weapons.

And back on the pistol + ccw, all my chaos marines have all three weapons so I'm clearly going to toss that one aside

@ JohnHwang -- Point taken, and agreed with. And to whomever suggested the real problem is the rules behind the weapons needing to change more than the points, I think you have it.

- Salvage]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325439.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325439.page GMT
So you won't see troops in rhinos taking a free heavy bolter. The 4 ablative marines sitting in the combat squad with the bolter that is plinking at 36" from cover are just extra wounds. Does this radically change the use of the squad? You just get a little more kill at range if you stand and shoot. Heavy bolters, at least it seems to me, are not terribly exciting until you can take multiples in a squad, such that all those extra bodies clutching bolters do not go to waste. Well, the bolters go to waste... the bodies get filled with a bullet just fine either way.

So at least for HBs, I think free is ok too.

Still on the fence with Meltas and Missiles, but chances are I will talk myself out of that too. Meltas are only 12" range after all... and sacrifice all those bolter rounds when they shoot at a tank... :-P]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325547.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325547.page GMT
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325554.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325554.page GMT White Scars should have been forced to play as Ravenwing).
[/quote]

I agree with a lot of your post, but I can't let this slide. WS have always been 'the' Bike chapter, with the Ravenwing a close second. I was VERY disappointed with the v4 SM codex and what it did to my W.S. army, (the new rules actually CONTRADICTED their fluff) and I am excited to learn if they have gotten even a glimpse of their v3 glory back. In fact, if I DON'T like what's been done (with the marines in general, and White Scars in specific) you'll be seeing approx. 6,000 points of Marines for sale very shortly after the 'dex's release.

Just to iterate, I HATE the DA, and BA combat squads rules, lack of customization and arbitrary restrictions. I felt S.M.'s to be very balanced before these changes.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325583.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325583.page GMT Nah, they just have *one* downside - they are not a Lascannon. After all, nobody seriously whines about their Bolters sitting idle when they're firing the Lascannon at a Tank.

Even for "FREE", I wouldn't ever take a Heavy Bolter in a Tactical squad, precisely because you're required to take the full 10 men first. If you could take a 5-man Combat Squad with "FREE" Heavy Bolter instead of Flamer (or Melta / Plasma), I'd consider the option. I think Heavy Bolters are only good en-masse, 4-deep in a Devastator squad. Otherwise, take the Lascannon.

Now OTOH, the "FREE" ML isn't so bad, because Krak is pretty close in performance to a Lascannon, but has the Frag mode to make up the difference. The ML is at least fieldable in a Tac squad - for 20 pts saved, but even so, you want ML en masse. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325594.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325594.page GMT [/quote]
I agree with a lot of your post, but I can't let this slide. WS have always been 'the' Bike chapter, with the Ravenwing a close second. [SNIP]

Just to iterate, I HATE the DA, and BA combat squads rules, lack of customization and arbitrary restrictions. I felt S.M.'s to be very balanced before these changes.[/quote]
"WS have always been the bike chapter" since RT/2E, or just for a little while in 3E?

I recall when I was playing back in 2E, DA RW got a boxed set and was somewhat popular, but I don't recall any WS set. Actually, I don't recall WS figuring much at all back in those days, aside from being an obligatory paint scheme. Back in RT, Mentor Legion seemed to be much more famous as the iconic White Marines. But I didn't pay so much attention to all of the Fluff, so you might be correct.

I went through the Anger and Denial phases over Combat Squads, etc. at the tail end of 4th Edition. My trigger was the Eldar Codex. I now accept Combat Squads and am increasingly OK with the new approach moving into 5th Edition. I'm also OK that armies go up and down in power relative to other armies. I think GW would tell you that the safest thing to do is to collect everything, then you'll always have the flavor of the week. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325601.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325601.page GMT LOL That's why I have 6,000 points of Marines. I can literally put together 2,000 points worth of any marine type except for the extreme compositions; I.E. All Deathwing, White Scars (sniff), Etc.

I do however have enough models to field an all Jump infantry and Land Speeder support BA army at 2,000 points. And a (currently) effective Ravenguard army at 2500.

I'm trying to collect enough marines to play any chapter at any time, but if they ALL have the same organisational structure with limited variations on limited modifications to said structure, what's really the point of indicating a difference between any two?

EDIT: I want to reiterate, because I don't think I was as clear as I'd like in my last post:

IF the Whitescars get some decent rules that are not only effective, but also fluffy, I'll probably still play Marines. I can deal with the combat squads for a characterful representation of my Favorite chapter.

Well I seem to have answered my own question above. But I still think that If they're going to write rules for individual chapters they should write unique rules for those chapters. (Also, I am NOT basing my statements on the OP. Rumours are always rumours to me until I hold a copy in my hands. )]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325618.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325618.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325633.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325633.page GMT SMs too good because if they did, everyone will want to play them.

At the moment it is a refreshing change of pace to find an SM army among the endles hordes of IG, DE, Necrons and so on.[/quote]

I can assure you it is the 100% reversal here in the states. There are more MEQ armies than anything else.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325651.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325651.page GMT SMs too good because if they did, everyone will want to play them.

At the moment it is a refreshing change of pace to find an SM army among the endles hordes of IG, DE, Necrons and so on.[/quote]

I can assure you it is the 100% reversal here in the states. There are more MEQ armies than anything else.[/quote]

Depends on where in the states mayhaps, cause there ain't many marines `round these parts.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325661.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325661.page GMT Depends on where in the states mayhaps, cause there ain't many marines `round these parts.[/quote]

lucky you.

New army books all around would be great. I cant wait for the guard rumors to start rolling around.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325672.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325672.page GMT SMs too good because if they did, everyone will want to play them.

At the moment it is a refreshing change of pace to find an SM army among the endles hordes of IG, DE, Necrons and so on.[/quote]

I can assure you it is the 100% reversal here in the states. There are more MEQ armies than anything else.[/quote]

Depends on where in the states mayhaps, cause there ain't many marines `round these parts.[/quote]

Wait!

Did you just say "Mayhaps"?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325675.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325675.page GMT
I used that term Thursday last, and would fain use it again soon.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325679.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325679.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325702.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325702.page GMT LOL That's why I have 6,000 points of Marines. I can literally put together 2,000 points worth of any marine type except for the extreme compositions; I.E. All Deathwing, White Scars (sniff), Etc.

I'm trying to collect enough marines to play any chapter at any time, but if they ALL have the same organisational structure with limited variations on limited modifications to said structure, what's really the point of indicating a difference between any two?

Well I seem to have answered my own question above. But I still think that If they're going to write rules for individual chapters they should write unique rules for those chapters. [/quote]
Hey, 8,000+ pts of Eldar didn't appear out of nowhere, either. Back when Eldar had Craftworlds, I could put together GT-sized armies for any of them.

[i]except Saim-Hann, but nobody played Saim-Hann, so they didn't matter[/i]

As Jervis himself showed with his grey marines, SM are easier than Eldar (or CSM) because you don't (didn't) have quite as many distinct unit types. You just need the Chapter-specific Characters and units to have a new army. Though GW is "fixing" that with the additional Elites to give SM players more stuff to collect. I'm taking a more measured (ha!) approach to my SM, with a core and options. But somehow, even that's gotten to roughly 4k pts.

I agree that GW should write unique, distinctive rules for Chapters, but that GW should do some serious thinking about what kinds of Chapters they should have, so that the various Chapters don't overlap too much.

[quote=Railguns]Hey, doesn't one of the characters give twin linked to all bolters 'n such? I wonder (if this is true of course) how good Sturmguard Vets would be with the "bolt rounds of ap3 but gets hot!" with the Bolter Boost Character, possibly using a Drop Pod to Deepstrike into rapid fire range mayhaps. [/quote]
I'm sure Sturmguard would be great with the twin-linked Character. But I'm not sure that you would want to take 3 units of them when the other Elites are so interesting, or that the narrowness of the list concept would provide as much benefit as a more diverse selection.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325713.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325713.page GMT
Did you just say "Mayhaps"?

[/quote]

Ummm.... Yes?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325743.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325743.page GMT
Did you just say "Mayhaps"?

[/quote]

Ummm.... Yes?[/quote]

You are a fit man, forsooth, to rule Dakka!

Verily!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325749.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325749.page GMT
http://www.gucomics.com/archives/view.php?cdate=20080505]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325758.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325758.page GMT
However what a lot of people missed since it's in the fine print on the inside back cover is this:

[quote]Spase Marinez (HURR!) are intended as a starter army for new players. They may only be used by players younger than 18. More experienced players may use the Dark Angel codex which is traditionally intended for veteran players.[/quote]

I think this is a reasonable choice on the part of GW and should silence a lot of critics.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325774.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325774.page GMT
Please tell me there are across-the-board point cuts. If not, Marinenz are dead. Oh noes!!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325840.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325840.page GMT GW and should silence a lot of critics.[/quote]

Are fake ID's that make you younger even possible?

BYE]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325854.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325854.page GMT GW do a series of special marine chapters who each have some special feature, like bikes or something, and they have the Ultramarines as the vanilla marines chapter, what is the point in a separate SM codex that lets you make special chapters with bikes or something, or vanilla marines?

Sorry for the long sentence.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325872.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/214108/325872.page