<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "[V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/15.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
FOR THIS POLL, PLEASE ANSWER HOW YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE GAME, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT THE RULES AS WRITTEN (RAW) SAY.




The Divine Pronouncement Witch Hunter psychic power says (pg 14): "Designate a single enemy unit within 18" and not in close combat -- this unit must take a Morale check as if it had just suffered 25% casualties from shooting. . .If the test is failed, the target unit will immediately fall back according to the normal rules."

The Fear of the Darkness Space Marine psychic power says (4th edition codex, pg 26): "Every enemy unit within 12" of the Librarian not Locked in an assault must take a Morale check (as though they had taken 25% casualties) with a -2 modifier to their Leadership, or fall back."

Other similar game effects include: The Deceiver's 'Deceive' ability, Witch Hunter's Holy Prometheum, etc.


The Morale rules on page 46 of the rulebook say: "Troops who are falling back automatically fail all Morale checks, except those to regroup."

Page 45 says: "Units make a fall back move immediately upon failing a Morale test."





QUESTION: If a unit suffers an effect that seems to cause it to fall back mid-shooting phase and it also suffers 25% casualties that phase, how will you choose to play the game?



OPTION A. The rules as written (RAW): The unit immediately falls back mid-phase. At the end of the phase if the unit actually suffered 25% casualties that phase it will fall back a second time.


OPTION B. The unit immediately falls back mid-phase. However I ignore the morale rules and play that a unit can only make one fall back move per turn (and so it will not fall back again at the end of the phase).


OPTION C. Since none of these rules state that the morale check itself is taken "immediately" I play that these effects are resolved at the end of the shooting phase and essentially just force a morale check (with some additional negative modifiers) regardless of whether the unit suffered 25% casualties or not. In short, only a single morale check will be taken at the end of the phase in this situation.


OPTION D. Similar to 'Option C', I play that the check is taken at the end of the phase but it doesn't supercede the normal morale check for 25% casualties. Therefore, the unit would have to take two morale checks at the end of the phase (one with all the negative penalties for the special rule) and if either (or both) of these tests are failed the unit makes one fall back move.


OPTION E. Something else entirely: reply exactly what it is below.



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/354411.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/354411.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
Edit: so I chose D.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/354421.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/354421.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
yakface wrote:
The Fury of the Ancients Space Marine psychic power says (4th edition codex, pg 26): "Every enemy unit within 12" of the Librarian not Locked in an assault must take a Morale check (as though they had taken 25% casualties) with a -2 modifier to their Leadership, or fall back."


Don't you mean Fear of the Darkness?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/354426.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/354426.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
skyth wrote:
yakface wrote:
The Fury of the Ancients Space Marine psychic power says (4th edition codex, pg 26): "Every enemy unit within 12" of the Librarian not Locked in an assault must take a Morale check (as though they had taken 25% casualties) with a -2 modifier to their Leadership, or fall back."


Don't you mean Fear of the Darkness?


Whoopsee.

Thanks, it's fixed now.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/354430.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/354430.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/354432.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/354432.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/354435.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/354435.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/354438.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/354438.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
Datajax wrote:I've always done B. I've done it that way because it was such a rare case that I didn't think about them being forced to make another at the end. I've always played you can only runaway once in a turn.



Just to clarify, what is new in this 5th edition equation is the bit about falling back unit automatically failing all morale checks.

That is entirely new and seems purposely designed to allow units to make multiple fall back units in the same turn. . .but I'm interested to see how everyone else will be playing it.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/354439.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/354439.page GMT Re:[V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
"...unit must take a Morale check as if it had just suffered 25% casualties from shooting. . .If the test is failed, the target unit will immediately fall back"

"Units make a fall back move immediately".

Holy Promethium:

"...will force a unit it causes a casualty upon to take a Morale Check as if it had just suffered 25% or more casualties."

Effect of both: IMMEDIATE. Cause a casualty, you WILL take a morale check right now. There's no fething around, since when did GW write permissive rule sets? Where does it direct you to take morale checks when you want to? All of the powers you list are IMMEDIATE effects.

I use my power, you fail the test, you run away. If you suffered 25%, you get to run away again. If I have multiple effects to trigger on you, you keep running as each occurs.

Your new way: I suffer the effect but like some wierd game of magic I can wait until the end of the "phase" to suffer them, and the effects "stack" so you only suffer it once.

I note that all of these abilities occur in the shooting phase and have in their codex or the FAQ's that these are "instead of firing a weapon".

If I shoot you with psychic powers do you get to "choose" to take the models off at the end of the shooting phase? No. Everything is resolved immediately.

Only ACTUALLY suffering 25% casualties will trigger a morale check at the end of the phase.

Why? That's the only instance where you are told to check at the end of the phase.

GW changed the rules from 4th edition, and wanting it to go back to 4th edition is not going to help any.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/354477.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/354477.page GMT Re:[V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
Stelek wrote:Hmmm. This is confusing?

Your new way: I suffer the effect but like some wierd game of magic I can wait until the end of the "phase" to suffer them, and the effects "stack" so you only suffer it once.



Whose new way? Who are you referring to?

One reason that it can possibly be confusing is because some of those effects say they cause a morale check as if the unit had suffered 25% casualties. And if you flip to the rules for such a morale check it states that it is taken at the end of the phase, ergo possible confusion.

But regardless, I'm certainly not proposing any "new way" just trying to gauge how people are playing this situation.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/354566.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/354566.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
But all of those powers which say test as if you'd taken 25% casualties powers are confusing because the wording is redundant. If you're doing the casualty test according to main book, you take at most one casualty test per shooting phase as the last thing to do in that phase. The 'immediate' for falling back is relative to when the test in actually done (which is completely as normal in the rules), not to when the power is used.

I answered 'A' because I didn't notice the line about "as if it had taken 25% casualties" but I would actually play it as 'C' for those powers. From the description of the Deceiver's ability and the Witch Hunter Devine Pronouncement, it just says that the target unit has to take a morale check as if it had taken 25% casualties, which is case 'C'.

If it just said 'Take a morale check or fall back', that would be case 'A'. Are there any powers like that in the game?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/354654.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/354654.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
solkan wrote:

If it just said 'Take a morale check or fall back', that would be case 'A'. Are there any powers like that in the game?


I'm on the same page, as Slokan.

I was thinking about this, again. If the test is made immediately (roll LD and possibly fallback, right away) what is left to make the test like "suffering 25% casualties"? Wouldn't it simply be forcing LD test for a fallback move?

Holy Promethium: "will force a unit it causes a casualty upon to take a morale test as if it had just suffered 25% or more casualties " (WH pg23). "A unit losing 25% pr more of its models during a single phase must pass a Morale check at the end of that phase" (BRB pg 44). If I fail, I fallback. It doesn't say "immediately" anywhere for this upgrade. The effect paid for is that only one wound need to be inflicted to cause the test. If the unit takes the casualty, I would not take further Casualties tests for the phase, as the 25% rule had already been satisfied (the one wound being treated as 25+% casualties).

Divine Pronouncement uses the word "immediately" when talking about the fall back and *not* when the morale test. That seems redundant as: "Units make a fall back move immediately upon failing a Morale test." (BRB pg 45). Badly written pyschic power, IMHO. I would play it the same as above, though. "-this unit must take a morale check as if it had just suffered 25% causalities from shooting" (WH pg14). Again, "A unit losing 25% pr more of its models during a single phase must pass a Morale check at the end of that phase" (BRB pg 44). I would not roll further casualty tests as the condition for 25% Casualties had already been fulfilled.

For the record, I originally voted "D".

Cheers.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/355000.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/355000.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks Ld tests can be passed, it's not like it's a guaranteed result anyhow.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/355174.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/355174.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks GW put the rule in for 25% casualties so fearless units are not affected and they don't have to say that in every description. They can just have the main rules say it for them.

In short, you take a morale check from 25% casualties at the end of the phase (because the main rulebook tells you at the end of any phase in which you ACTUALLY suffered 25% casualties you have to take the test) but these abilities direct you to take the test 'as if you had suffered' which is not actually suffering 25% casualties.

All of them tell you to take the test, why would you assume you take it at the end of the phase? If the rule does not tell you to take a test later, you do it now.

As soon as you actually suffer 25% casualties from one of these abilities, then you can delay the test until the end of the phase per the wording in the main rulebook.

In short, I think this is perfectly clear and is rules abuse at it's worst.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/355224.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/355224.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
Stelek wrote:GW put the rule in for 25% casualties so fearless units are not affected and they don't have to say that in every description. They can just have the main rules say it for them.



Not too sure what Fearlessness has to do with this.

Holy Promethium: "will force a unit it causes a casualty upon to take a morale test as if it had just suffered 25% or more casualties "

would affect a fearless unit the same as this would:

Holy Promethium: "will force a unit it causes a casualty upon to take a morale test "

Less text in the second one and certainly clearer as to when the test would be made.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/355316.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/355316.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
In essence, they "take" all morale and pinning checks. And then they pass them.

Where everyone else, does not.

In effect it works like this:

Forced to take morale or pinning check:

a) Roll dice if not fearless
b) Autopass test if fearless

The main rules tell you only to take the end of phase morale check if you suffer 25% casualties, and so that is the only instance in which you should do so.

There are no delayed phases in the game other than those GW tells you about, because GW makes explicit, not permissive, game systems.

Put another way:

1) Your mother tells you to put away your clothes.

Or,

2) Your mother tells you to put away your clothes when you go to bed.

What makes you think she meant #1 to be the same as #2?

I know if I received #1, I'd go put away my clothes because she sure didn't mean "whenever you feel like it".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/355322.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/355322.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/355326.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/355326.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/355347.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/355347.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
kid_happy wrote:
Stelek wrote:GW put the rule in for 25% casualties so fearless units are not affected and they don't have to say that in every description. They can just have the main rules say it for them.



Not too sure what Fearlessness has to do with this.

Holy Promethium: "will force a unit it causes a casualty upon to take a morale test as if it had just suffered 25% or more casualties "

would affect a fearless unit the same as this would:

Holy Promethium: "will force a unit it causes a casualty upon to take a morale test "

Less text in the second one and certainly clearer as to when the test would be made.

as said in the bgb fearless units AUTOMATICALLY pass morale checks. so
fearless units takes moral check, but cuz of the fearless rule it automatically passes it. rendering the power useless]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/355441.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/355441.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
enmitee wrote:
kid_happy wrote:
Not too sure what Fearlessness has to do with this.

Holy Promethium: "will force a unit it causes a casualty upon to take a morale test as if it had just suffered 25% or more casualties "

would affect a fearless unit the same as this would:

Holy Promethium: "will force a unit it causes a casualty upon to take a morale test "

Less text in the second one and certainly clearer as to when the test would be made.

as said in the bgb fearless units AUTOMATICALLY pass morale checks. so
fearless units takes moral check, but cuz of the fearless rule it automatically passes it. rendering the power useless

Yes, but both indicate that the unit takes a morale test which a fearless unit automatically passes, the extra text "as if it had just suffered 25% or more casualties" has no effect on how a fearless unit treats a morale test, if it's called a morale test they automatically pass, fullstop, that's all there is to it.

I'm in the boat that because they have that addition to the sentence then you treat it exactly as though it was 25% casualties, and take it at the end of the phase (immediately referring to the fall back relative to the test as others have pointed out) and not testing more than once if you do actually take 25% casualties.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356072.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356072.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356224.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356224.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356227.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356227.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks RAW. Fear of the Darkness even throws in a sub clause that covers Fearless. It says nothing about immediately. All it say is it counts as though it had taken 25% casualties, which you then follow the normal morale rules for taking 25% casualties, but with a -2 modifier. It then states that all normal modifiers and/or exceptions apply (ie, units that never fall back are immune to this power), which covers fearless.

You have a predisposition to assume that your mother always wants you to put your clothing away now, and not at your first convenience. In this instance the blanket rule for morale checks caused by taking 25% casualties is that you only take a single test a turn, and it is taken at the end of the round. If the wording of a test includes immediately and 25% casualties I would say you are right, that it is an immediate test, like tank shock and the rest of the rules follow like you took 25% casualties. But any power that does not include that wording and that only counts as shooting would follow the normal rules ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356407.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356407.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356409.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356409.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks RAW are based off your 4th edition GW assumptions, which isn't 5th edition GW.

So, whatever.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356475.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356475.page GMT Re:[V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
.02

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356486.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356486.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356607.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356607.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
Stelek wrote:In short, you take a morale check from 25% casualties at the end of the phase (because the main rulebook tells you at the end of any phase in which you ACTUALLY suffered 25% casualties you have to take the test) but these abilities direct you to take the test 'as if you had suffered' which is not actually suffering 25% casualties.

All of them tell you to take the test, why would you assume you take it at the end of the phase? If the rule does not tell you to take a test later, you do it now.


I would assume you take the test at the end of the phase because that's what the rules say to do. If you actually take 25% casualties, do you test immediatly or do you wait till the end of the phase? You wait till the end of the phase. So if you take a test as if you had suffered 25% casualties do you take it immediatly or do you wait till the end of the phase? I can't see how the answer to the two could be different when one tells you to do things exactly like the other. The rules for taking 25% casualties say to take the test at the end of the phase so that's what you do for both. The only difference is that in some of the powers, you don't have to actually lose models. Seems open and shut to me but obviously you think differently. So, where in the rules does it say to take the test immediatly? The only mention of immediatly that I can find anywhere is once you've failed the test, but at that point I think everyone already agrees on what happens.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356671.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356671.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356679.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356679.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks RAW. If it said it was an immediate test, I would assume otherwise as that conflicts with the 5th ed rule for morale checks. But wouldn't the 5th ed rules still trump any 4th ed wording?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356759.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356759.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks RAW at all. These powers tell you not only what to do ('take a morale test and fall back immediately IF you fail') but also how to do it ('as if you took 25% casualties') - which means you do it at the end of the phase and only take one test for that whole phase's events.

+1 for Toreador, Red_Lives, Phoenix, JCarter, Drunkspleen, Solkan and kid_happy who seem to read the rules the same way I do.

For dancingcricket and Odinsspear45, just because playing the morale test immediately would make these powers more - er - powerful, doesn't mean that's the way it's supposed to work.

I'd play it as C unless a specific power clearly states the morale check is immediate. Anything that includes 'as if suffering 25% casualties' or words to that effect only gets tested at the end of that phase.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356783.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356783.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks RAW?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356825.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356825.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356867.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356867.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
dancingcricket wrote:Why do you think you get to delay till the end of the turn. It's replacing a shooting attack, at least in most instances. So you get to resolve it at the end of the phase? No, you resolve the results from shooting when they happen. I'd love to wait till the end of the phase to resolve your shooting attacks against me, man that'd be broken. It's replacing a shooting attack, resolve immediately. You only wait till after all shooting is resolved to check morale for actual casualties.


You are WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!

p. 44

"A unit losing 25% or more of its models during a single phase must pass a morale check at the END of the phase"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356877.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356877.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
Red_Lives wrote:
dancingcricket wrote:Why do you think you get to delay till the end of the turn. It's replacing a shooting attack, at least in most instances. So you get to resolve it at the end of the phase? No, you resolve the results from shooting when they happen. I'd love to wait till the end of the phase to resolve your shooting attacks against me, man that'd be broken. It's replacing a shooting attack, resolve immediately. You only wait till after all shooting is resolved to check morale for actual casualties.


You are WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!

p. 44

"A unit losing 25% or more of its models during a single phase must pass a morale check at the END of the phase"


Please tell us, dear friend of the internet, how a unit that is subject to a psychic power that kills no models has lost 25% of more of it's models?

See, it is illegal to pass this morale check to the end of the phase unless you have LOST MODELS.

Thank you for reading before quoting rules. :S ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356889.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356889.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
You can believe otherwise, but again, this is a RAI question that was posed, so everyone is entitled to their own opinions. So far at least though, judging by the poll results, A seems to be the most popular one.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356892.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356892.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
Toreador wrote:Not much of a 4th ed assumption as much as a 5th ed assumption. I assume that any morale checks caused by 25% casualties are taken at the end of the phase they were caused in, as this is the 5th ed rules. When a rule, written for 4th ed, states that you treat it as you had suffered 25% casualties I assume that since I am using 5th edition rules, I would use those rules to figure out how morale was checked. I think you have your logic flipped. You are assuming it is like 4th ed. I see no other way to read it by RAW. If it said it was an immediate test, I would assume otherwise as that conflicts with the 5th ed rule for morale checks. But wouldn't the 5th ed rules still trump any 4th ed wording?


Since the 5th edition rulebook clearly says so.

Page 52. 74. 62.

What's it say about Codexes trumping the main rulebook?

Hey, it's a theme!

Right, this is a VERY FUN discussion but I think I should opt out now.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356893.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356893.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
dancingcricket wrote:Not disputing that. However, none of the abilities tell you to actually remove 25% of the models. They tell you to, instead of shooting, cause the target unit to make a morale check as if they had lost the requisite number of models. Should you wait to move the models when using pavane? No. Should you wait to roll saves from actual attacks? No. Should you wait to resolve any other result of any other immediate ability? No. So, should you wait till the end of the turn to resolve the effects of these immediate abilities? No, you shouldn't.

You can believe otherwise, but again, this is a RAI question that was posed, so everyone is entitled to their own opinions. So far at least though, judging by the poll results, A seems to be the most popular one.


Hmmm maybe you mistook me for someone who disagrees with you.

Silly rabbit.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356895.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356895.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
Stelek wrote:
Please tell us, dear friend of the internet, how a unit that is subject to a psychic power that kills no models has lost 25% of more of it's models?

See, it is illegal to pass this morale check to the end of the phase unless you have LOST MODELS.

Thank you for reading before quoting rules. :S



Because as yak quoted thats how the powers are worded? you know... perhaps?

yakface wrote:
The Divine Pronouncement Witch Hunter psychic power says (pg 14): "Designate a single enemy unit within 18" and not in close combat -- this unit must take a Morale check as if it had just suffered 25% casualties from shooting. . .If the test is failed, the target unit will immediately fall back according to the normal rules."

The Fear of the Darkness Space Marine psychic power says (4th edition codex, pg 26): "Every enemy unit within 12" of the Librarian not Locked in an assault must take a Morale check (as though they had taken 25% casualties) with a -2 modifier to their Leadership, or fall back."

Other similar game effects include: The Deceiver's 'Deceive' ability, Witch Hunter's Holy Prometheum, etc.



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356896.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356896.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
Either the 5th edition rules are sacrosanct (you MUST suffer those casualties to be forced to take the test) or they are whatever you say they are today (I like not having to test twice, so I'll move this test to the end of the phase).

See, you miss the point (again) about relying on your interpretation of the rules.

The 5th edition rules say you MUST LOSE MODELS.

The Codex rules say you don't.

See, they use the same wording but actually have nothing to do with each other. It's just wishful thinking on your part (and many others).

Why people do not understand that GW games do not support 'as if' to be 'exactly' is beyond me.

This is not a permissive game system, where you can do anything you want to when you want to unless told otherwise.

This is a restrictive game system, where you do what you are told to immediately unless told otherwise.

See the difference? No? Fine, post more about how you're right and I'll give the internet a free 'I win' button.

What's your color? Let me guess, red?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356913.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356913.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356917.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356917.page GMT Re:[V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356920.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356920.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks BGB says you only ever take this check if 25% of the models were physically removed from the table, then we play as if they were.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356922.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356922.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356925.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/356925.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
So again, prove your point. Where in the rules does it say to take the test immediately?

Yak, I too am curious how A is RAW. As it reads I only can come to the conclusion C is RAW.

Power is cast. You cause a morale check as if you had caused 25% casualties. You go to that section of the rulebook, and it states you take the test only once a phase, and at the end of the phase. I am not sure how that isn't RAW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357010.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357010.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
Is this a new tactic? It seems eerily familiar.

"Why?"

"Because I said so."

The rulebook does not tell you to take a test at the end of the phase 'as if you suffered 25% casualties'.

It tells you to take one test at the end of the phase 'when you suffer 25% casualties'.

The rulebook makes no mention of Codex generated morale checks--anywhere. You assume this means those morale checks occur when it is convenient for you. Some of you believe you can lump all of the morale checks into one, just because you want to.

That's horse and you know it. The 4th edition rules told you to take the same test, yet people would take as many tests as were forced upon them by the Codex rules. You believe 5th edition overrides the Codex rules, when as I pointed out it doesn't. Nowhere does it say 'take the morale check when you want to', and it also doesn't say 'check the main rules to see what your 8 year old Codex means'.

That isn't how 40K has ever worked, with one exception--the unit entries that changed how certain units were classified when that was standardized in the game.

The designers didn't put in the rule on autofailing all morale checks for nothing you know.

Since I know I'm talking myself hoarse for little gain, I'll put it another way:

If you are attacked by Deceive, and lose 25% of your number because you failed the test and failed the wounds caused--do you only take one test or two?

See, the RULES say you take a test for the Deceive ability AND they say you take a test for losing 25% of your models.

If the rules said what you say they are saying, you could NEVER meet the requirements of taking BOTH tests because one of two things happen:

You failed the test, but it happened at the "end of the phase". Should you even take saves? The power clearly tells you to, but aren't saves taken before "end of the phase" arrives?

What happens in the rules when two "end of the phase" items occur?

Why, nothing happens because there is no game mechanic to tell you what happens.

By insisting your way or the highway, you are breaking the rules--and if you grant the Deceive ability an exception so you aren't cheating, you must grant ALL of the abilities with similar wording the same exception.

I wager all the Black Templar players will be quite unhappy to find they suddenly cannot be forced to run forward because you say they can't, when they fail one of these tests inflicted by a special ability. Not multiple times, no sir, and we don't care what your Codex says because the fact that the main rulebook says Codices take precedence over the main rulebook means nothing to us.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357069.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357069.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
Well let's see, the actual RULE hasn't changed.

4th:

"A unit losing 25% or more of it's current unit strength in models from shooting during a single shooting phase must pass a morale check at the end of the shooting phase, with the appropriate modifiers, or it will fall back."

Versus 5th:

"A unit losing 25% or more of its models during a single phase must pass a morale check at the end of that phase, or else it will fall back."

Gee, NOTHING CHANGED there except shooting became ALL phases. And everyone knows, pinning has been replaced with gone to ground, which still requires you to take all morale checks.

Now what else changed?

GW changed this 4th edition rule: "A unit that is already falling back, is pinned or is locked in close combat does not have to take this test."

To it's 5th edition version: "Troops who are falling back automatically fail all Morale checks except those to regroup."

Gee, I used to have to take these tests immediately--why not now?

Because you don't WANT to.

To sum it all up:

Nothing has changed between 4th and 5th edition morale checks with ONE difference, and this whole thing is a bunch of bull .

Like it or not, this is rules lawyering at it's worst and everybody can feel the grime on this "discussion".

You aren't fooling anyone.

Everyone knows yak and I do not see eye to eye, but when we are both telling you the same thing you really need to re-examine your position. It will be a cold day in hell when we both agree and are both wrong. Or a warm sunny day in Jervis land. Either way, you get the meaning.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357072.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357072.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks RAW, whether I like it or not.

It has nothing absolutely to do with convenience, and it's not rules lawyering. It is reading the rules as they are. We have always played around here that you take multiple checks, but what I am saying is that the actual rule, and the way people assume we should play are a lot different.

Lets break it down a last time specifically for veil of darkness.

"Every enemy unit within 12" of the Librarian not locked in an assault must take a Morale Check (as though they had taken 25% casualties) with a -2 modifier to their Leadership, or fall back. All normal modifiers and/or exceptions apply (ie, units that never fall back are immune to this power.)"

Okay, so you cast the power. Every unit within 12" has to take a morale check at -2 just as if they took 25% casualties. So now we use only that section. We treat it as if we had taken 25% casualties, even though we have not lost any. Ok, so it reads "A unit losing 25% more of it's models during a single phase must pass a Morale check at the end of that phase, or else it will fall back." So we must wait till the end of the phase, and then test morale just like we had lost 25% AND the units only have to make a single test.

If it said just take a Morale Check I would be ok with what you are saying, but they did not. To treat it just like the rule for losing 25% means you have to follow those rules. I would also say that if you are locked in CC you don't have to take it either. It is really quite specific, and I see no reason why they would say to treat it just as you had lost 25% for any reason other than to make us follow those rules. If it just caused a Morale Check, it has the same end result (Fearless ignores it, they still fall back if they fail), except that there can be multiple Morale Checks in a turn and you do have to take a Morale Check if locked in combat.

And on this, I don't think we will ever see eye to eye on what the rules are saying, so I will end it at that. Yak also just put up his original thoughts. He hasn't posted since, and I have seen him change his position more than once. It also isn't entirely what the poll is about. If it is going to be continued, it should be moved out of this topic.

I have a question for anyone with any old resources, as I couldn't find anything, but do we have any evidence ever of a case where there was a FAQ answer or anything that talked about multiple Morale Checks from things that are treated "as if they had taken 25% casualties"? Everything has been worded this way for 3 editions. You would think there would be something out there. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357396.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357396.page GMT Re:[V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
Stelek wrote:Hmmm. This is confusing?

"...unit must take a Morale check as if it had just suffered 25% casualties from shooting. . .If the test is failed, the target unit will immediately fall back"

"Units make a fall back move immediately".

Holy Promethium:

"...will force a unit it causes a casualty upon to take a Morale Check as if it had just suffered 25% or more casualties."

Effect of both: IMMEDIATE. Cause a casualty, you WILL take a morale check right now. There's no fething around, since when did GW write permissive rule sets? Where does it direct you to take morale checks when you want to? All of the powers you list are IMMEDIATE effects.

I use my power, you fail the test, you run away. If you suffered 25%, you get to run away again. If I have multiple effects to trigger on you, you keep running as each occurs.

Your new way: I suffer the effect but like some wierd game of magic I can wait until the end of the "phase" to suffer them, and the effects "stack" so you only suffer it once.

I note that all of these abilities occur in the shooting phase and have in their codex or the FAQ's that these are "instead of firing a weapon".

If I shoot you with psychic powers do you get to "choose" to take the models off at the end of the shooting phase? No. Everything is resolved immediately.

Only ACTUALLY suffering 25% casualties will trigger a morale check at the end of the phase.

Why? That's the only instance where you are told to check at the end of the phase.

GW changed the rules from 4th edition, and wanting it to go back to 4th edition is not going to help any.


Unless I am misunderstanding you post, which isn't that well laid out, you are getting the IMMEDIATE part of this wrong. The test is not immediate. No where in the rules does it say the morale test is immediate upon reaching the conditions to cause one. It just says "must take a test". Well, when do you take a morale test per the rule book? One test per unit at the end of the phase PG 43. "Must" does not equal "immediately".

Unless the rules say I must take an immediate test I will do all my morale tests at the end of the phase - in this case the shooting phase.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357404.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357404.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks RAW; however, that doesn't obviously limit the number of tests to one. The question is still open as to whether a unit that is affected by the power AND takes 25% casualties in the same phase must roll two tests or one. Anyone have some specific wording from the BBB that would apply?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357623.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357623.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
JCarter wrote:As I wrote before, I think the test at end of phase is RAW; however, that doesn't obviously limit the number of tests to one. The question is still open as to whether a unit that is affected by the power AND takes 25% casualties in the same phase must roll two tests or one. Anyone have some specific wording from the BBB that would apply?


"A unit losing 25% or more of its models during a single phase must pass a morale check at the end of that phase, or else it will fall back."

That's the rule in the BRB. However it never makes any mention anywhere in the book about needing to take the same test twice in 1 phase. And as far as my knowledge it is not necessary to take the same test multiple times, so the "as if they had taken 25%" powers/abilities replace this test. but i am sure others will disagree with me.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357629.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357629.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
One ping only, Vasily...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357630.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357630.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357636.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357636.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks CC by 5 wounds', and leaving it up to the edition to figure out what kind of modifiers you got. 5th you'd take -5 to your roll, 4th - well your not outnumbered so no mods unless your below half str, etc. It also puts in in the catergory of morale check as opposed to leadership checks, which fearless units don't necessarily pass automatically. Otherwise, it's an immediate power, you don't wait till the end of phase to see who's in range, theirs no requirement to when you use it except that it's done in place of something else that's immediate. So it's done at that time.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357669.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357669.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357701.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357701.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
So the replacement is this.

Causes one wound.
Enemy unit has to make a morale check just like it had been caused by 25% casualties. It seems to me this would follow under the same rules. It is another replacement.

You cause one wound, it acts as if you had caused 25% casualties, so therefore it is taken once and at the end of the phase. The once in the shooting rule for taking 25% casualties is not exclusive. If you follow part of it, you follow all of it. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357782.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357782.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
There never has been.

GW rules against this type of rules lawyering at every opportunity.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357815.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357815.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
The psychic powers/wargear in question all have the wording "as if it had taken 25%" so in essence all these abilities do is add that status effect to a unit, regardless of if it had taken 25% or not.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357820.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357820.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks 40k.

When 40k becomes a card game, we can talk about status effects, stacking, counters, and all that crap.

Please, not until the glorious day we all play PP games ok?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357838.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357838.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
What it does is make units make a morale check AS IF they had taken 25% casualties.

What are the rules for taking 25% casualties?
1)It must make a morale check at the end of the phase or it falls back.

Now if you want to argue that you have to make multiple checks, you have more grounds. Taking a check as if you took 25% casualties is ambiguous enough to mean an extra check, but if you follow the rules by RAW, you count as causing 25% casualties during the phase, so you would only take A check at the end of the phase. Even if you could argue you make multiple morale checks, it would still only be at the end of the phase. I still say you are on shaky ground at best.

This is the problem. Why would they word it that way? Why not just say make a morale check? Is it because of the CC clause? What do they gain?

and that glorious PP day has passed long ago. We found it's problems and moved on.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357855.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357855.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
Stelek wrote:Red, there are no status effects in 40k.

When 40k becomes a card game, we can talk about status effects, stacking, counters, and all that crap.

Please, not until the glorious day we all play PP games ok?


dude yes there is! haven't you seen the new plastic token set in the gamer edition?!

There is a marker for fleeing, all the different vehicle damage results wound markers. To me those seem an awful lot like status tokens ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357857.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357857.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
You can concievably end up with a situation where an infantry unit with multiple morale failures could move faster than a turbo-boosting jetbike.

I know there are a lot of people on here who will always use RAW over RAI, but this isn't about game design, its about simple common sense - and if you're going to go into a long semantic argument about how the specifics of the text allows PBI to move that fast, you really need to get out more...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357883.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357883.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks
Try multiple tank shock.

Woops, whole theory, gone just like that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357934.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357934.page GMT [V5] YMTC - Mid-Phase morale checks GW really wanted you to test "mid phase" with these psychic powers they could have worded it that way similar to tank shock no? But they instead decided to word it "as if they had taken 25%" which RAW is done at the end of the phase. (since thats when the 25% check is done and these powers basically pretend you suffered 25%)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357937.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/216362/357937.page GMT