I recall hearing that the Kazumi Temple Rampart sets did not sell well. But it it one of my favorite sets and considering the big player base of GW Seraphon/Lizardmen it should sell well. I want to see it sell well and so even more can be designed and sold to folks like me.. But it will not sell well without good floors (and roofs) so that customers can create buildings without having to build those from scratch.
Timd, those are some clever conversions. They certainly show the potential of the terrain. I doubt the average customer has your modeling skills however. I hope to create a ziggurat temple out of the Kazumi sets at some point and need to figure out a floor system that works better for me than the current concrete and rebar Rampart floor pieces.
As for my Cobalt pieces, I am unsure if I will keep them or sell them on.
I inflicted my opinions on a couple of Archon staff members at Spiel, with from the facial expressions, mixed results. I will talk more about it in an upcoming blog post but for now let me say Archon had a very large and well presented display at Spiel.
Lots of stock on sale. Various product lines. Painted and unpainted examples. Many of the painted pieces were sublime. They were countered by an awkwardly assembled unpainted Sorcerer‘s Spire made of D&L pieces that I felt was counterproductive in showing the products potential off. The staff member were polite and attentive but I felt I was not successful in adequately expressing my points.
I inflicted my opinions on a couple of Archon staff members at Spiel, with from the facial expressions, mixed results. I will talk more about it in an upcoming blog post but for now let me say Archon had a very large and well presented display at Spiel.
Lots of stock on sale. Various product lines. Painted and unpainted examples. Many of the painted pieces were sublime. They were countered by an awkwardly assembled unpainted Sorcerer‘s Spire made of D&L pieces that I felt was counterproductive in showing the products potential off. The staff member were polite and attentive but I felt I was not successful in adequately expressing my points.
I'm afraid I don't know exactly which employees you talked to, but it's possible they aren't involved with D&L at all or aren't involved in the design process, as we have a variety of different products. In general, I do recommend posting through our social media channels as you're a lot more likely to get heard there. If you're able to get a hold of the project manager or CEO during these events, they're also a lot more likely to listen. In other news, it seems like it's been decided that I'll be attending Essen next year :p
@Szymon_Archon - do you know maybe how much in retail M&M boxes will cost? I am interested in miniatures only (Necropolis and Fortress are my favourites), and in case that minis are not released separately, I would like to know if the cost for the box will justify buying it just for minis.
I inflicted my opinions on a couple of Archon staff members at Spiel, with from the facial expressions, mixed results. I will talk more about it in an upcoming blog post but for now let me say Archon had a very large and well presented display at Spiel.
Lots of stock on sale. Various product lines. Painted and unpainted examples. Many of the painted pieces were sublime. They were countered by an awkwardly assembled unpainted Sorcerer‘s Spire made of D&L pieces that I felt was counterproductive in showing the products potential off. The staff member were polite and attentive but I felt I was not successful in adequately expressing my points.
I'm afraid I don't know exactly which employees you talked to, but it's possible they aren't involved with D&L at all or aren't involved in the design process, as we have a variety of different products. In general, I do recommend posting through our social media channels as you're a lot more likely to get heard there. If you're able to get a hold of the project manager or CEO during these events, they're also a lot more likely to listen. In other news, it seems like it's been decided that I'll be attending Essen next year :p
The first member of staff mentioned working in the stockroom I believe but he took me to another staff member whom he said was formerly a project leader… I believe for D&L but he also seemed quite proud of the He-Man product line as well as the overall stall layout, which was quite large. One of the biggest tabletop wargaming miniatures stalls at the show. As big as if not bigger than Games Workshop. My guess would be that he was the senior staff member present on Friday. He tolerated this muttonchoped American for quite some time and I would be surprised if he forgot the exchange.
I am not on social media, which is quite frustrating as I tended to get blank looks at Spiel when I mentioned The Lead Adventure Forum and Dakka Dakka to folks running various stalls.
I inflicted my opinions on a couple of Archon staff members at Spiel, with from the facial expressions, mixed results. I will talk more about it in an upcoming blog post but for now let me say Archon had a very large and well presented display at Spiel.
Lots of stock on sale. Various product lines. Painted and unpainted examples. Many of the painted pieces were sublime. They were countered by an awkwardly assembled unpainted Sorcerer‘s Spire made of D&L pieces that I felt was counterproductive in showing the products potential off. The staff member were polite and attentive but I felt I was not successful in adequately expressing my points.
I'm afraid I don't know exactly which employees you talked to, but it's possible they aren't involved with D&L at all or aren't involved in the design process, as we have a variety of different products. In general, I do recommend posting through our social media channels as you're a lot more likely to get heard there. If you're able to get a hold of the project manager or CEO during these events, they're also a lot more likely to listen. In other news, it seems like it's been decided that I'll be attending Essen next year :p
The first member of staff mentioned working in the stockroom I believe but he took me to another staff member whom he said was formerly a project leader… I believe for D&L but he also seemed quite proud of the He-Man product line as well as the overall stall layout, which was quite large. One of the biggest tabletop wargaming miniatures stalls at the show. As big as if not bigger than Games Workshop. My guess would be that he was the senior staff member present on Friday. He tolerated this muttonchoped American for quite some time and I would be surprised if he forgot the exchange.
I am not on social media, which is quite frustrating as I tended to get blank looks at Spiel when I mentioned The Lead Adventure Forum and Dakka Dakka to folks running various stalls.
Grognard That said I'd love to have some floors, and scatter terrain for Kazumi. It will give me the final push to finish all the unpainted walls, and maybe magnetize the whole thing.
Shadow Walker wrote: @Szymon_Archon - do you know maybe how much in retail M&M boxes will cost? I am interested in miniatures only (Necropolis and Fortress are my favourites), and in case that minis are not released separately, I would like to know if the cost for the box will justify buying it just for minis.
No idea, I'm afraid. It's possible the miniatures for the core game might be released separately, as I don't think they will be included in the regular box. I'm sure that more information will be available in the future, at least once we deliver Wave 1
The CEO recently explained some of what goes into making tools, and I wasn't aware of the fact that the tech for making sprues we have is so advanced, but also how lucky we are with the sheer amount of coincidences that even allowed us to get here...
At this point, I'm even more convinced that we're in a prime position to take over the miniature market, considering the fact that GW's process is much less efficient but they have the money to throw more people at the problem. All we need is just 1 miniature-related project that becomes massively popular.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I will say that it kind of sucks that we're in competition against GW, as I personally love the WH40k universe. I think my first introduction to the universe was my father explaining some of the rules and playing a small game with his Necron army (and occasionally taking me with him whenever he went to the local GW store), but growing up I loved playing RTS games like Warcraft 3 and WH40k: Dawn of War (both 1 and 2), and that's where I was properly exposed to the universe.
Szymon_Archon wrote: The CEO recently explained some of what goes into making tools, and I wasn't aware of the fact that the tech for making sprues we have is so advanced, but also how lucky we are with the sheer amount of coincidences that even allowed us to get here...
At this point, I'm even more convinced that we're in a prime position to take over the miniature market, considering the fact that GW's process is much less efficient but they have the money to throw more people at the problem. All we need is just 1 miniature-related project that becomes massively popular.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I will say that it kind of sucks that we're in competition against GW, as I personally love the WH40k universe. I think my first introduction to the universe was my father explaining some of the rules and playing a small game with his Necron army (and occasionally taking me with him whenever he went to the local GW store), but growing up I loved playing RTS games like Warcraft 3 and WH40k: Dawn of War (both 1 and 2), and that's where I was properly exposed to the universe.
It might just be my general interest in diverse technologies, but is there anything more you could say about what makes the process different? If it's not a trade secret or the like of course.
At this point, I'm even more convinced that we're in a prime position to take over the miniature market, considering the fact that GW's process is much less efficient but they have the money to throw more people at the problem. All we need is just 1 miniature-related project that becomes massively popular.
It's pretty absurd that you can do two dozen new tools on a 1 million euro kickstarter.
I expected you to have a mass battle game out by now, honestly. You clearly have the manufacturing capacity to overtake companies like Mantic in your sleep if you wanted to. Do a KS for a wargame, starting with 4 factions of 4 sprues each should be child's play. Make it 10-15mm so we can field dozens of tanks and you sell dozens of the same sprue. The rules I've seen coming from Archon have all been top tier too. Just need an evocative setting. Or maybe partner up with someone already doing good stuff... take a look at Full Spectrum Dominance. Just throwing it out there.
It might just be my general interest in diverse technologies, but is there anything more you could say about what makes the process different? If it's not a trade secret or the like of course.
I'm afraid it is a trade secret, we've actually had multiple companies attempt to steal information about the process, although I'm not naming names. I think our CEO also mentioned this during a podcast he was on (it was in Polish), a large competitor wanted to outright buy the company for a large amount, but the contract would be way too restrictive and we have the potential to grow much larger.
> I will say that it kind of sucks that we're in competition against GW,
Well, not in the generic fantasy department!
So far, most of the mini's are best suited for the "one cool mini" in the RPG department. Reaper and WizKids are the competition there, but they're selling premade soft-plastic, sold individually, for the non-painters. Since Archon is "sell by the sprue", they could sell sprues that just happen to have the mini's needed for popular WotC adventures. Frankly, it's a PITA to find miniatures from different companies for the NPCs and monsters in an encounter, although 5e moves towardds miniature-free "theatre of the mind". Archon, of course, has made their own with the Deuslair campaign, and they can look at their sales to see if that worked.
Then there're miniature skirmish games. Song of Blades and Heroes, and Five Leagues from the Borderlands are popular miniature skirmish games, or Archon could create one for their Deuslair line.
Wandered off a bit. When will D&L: Ruins come out?
To clarify, we're not in direct competition with GW (and we're not really trying to be), but it sucks that we won't really be able to ever work on 40k stuff. If we made 10% of what GW does in a year, we'd likely be seen as a threat by them.
What kind of NPCs and monsters are you looking for specifically?
As a sidenote, I recently made a post in the suggestions forum on our Discord server. Does the idea of specific encounters with some props sound appealing? Some examples included a caravan robbery with guards and bandits, or a graveyard themed set with Skeletons, Zombies, and Necromancers.
Szymon_Archon wrote: To clarify, we're not in direct competition with GW (and we're not really trying to be), but it sucks that we won't really be able to ever work on 40k stuff. If we made 10% of what GW does in a year, we'd likely be seen as a threat by them.
What kind of NPCs and monsters are you looking for specifically?
As a sidenote, I recently made a post in the suggestions forum on our Discord server. Does the idea of specific encounters with some props sound appealing? Some examples included a caravan robbery with guards and bandits, or a graveyard themed set with Skeletons, Zombies, and Necromancers.
I do not think anyone can truly compete with GW. It has not only a long term foundation of loyal customers spanning what, three generations? It has brick and mortar stores internationally. It has has a multimedia presence. It has a thriving tournament, as well as casual, gaming community.
And so far, in my opinion, it does not play well with others.
It would take an incredibly dedicated, well disciplined long range plan to eventually build such a comprehensive brand.
That said, there is still room to make great products for customers and make enough money to feed the families of Archon Studio employees.
Renedra comes to mind as a closer competitor to what Archon is doing of late with the IP partnerships and contracted work. But perhaps an even closer competitor might be Wargames Atlantic or North Star Miniatures, although I do not have any idea about actual company values, liquid assets, share prices etc. I am just thinking about market foot print and general online reputation.
How Brexit and the Chinese trade disruptions may continue to affect the gaming market remains to be seen but Archon is in a position to capitalize on the EU market.
But really I think Archon needs to work on the “Archon Almost” issue. Finish making Woodhaven in plastic to concept art. Sort out the door issues. Sort out the Rampart floor and roof issues.
Do not get me wrong, I like the idea of a caravan robbery set. But I would like to see older product lines competed before new stuff. And I do not think I am alone.
And I think Archon would need to make some compelling world building for any game it tried to introduce into what I would consider a saturated market. It would need some serious hooks and would need sustainability or run the risk of being yet another fad game that comes and goes. At its core, love it or hate it, Grimdark is a core hook for Games Workshop. Archon would need something to make any game of its own stand out for itself.
I would love to see Starcide get some love.You have done some great concept art for the different races.
The Encounters idea sounds good.Smaller fixed themes.The Caravan robbery one with a few options for different Caravan types.
Graveyard theme could also include grave robbers.
CED1106 makes a good point of using the Deuslair range to do a skirmish game.It should have enough miniatures in the initial release to do some warbands.
Then expand the miniatures range from there for a larger scale game.Should be an easier way to expand the range and fan base.
Warcry,Necromunda and games like Frostgrave have done well this way.
Maybe having some themed factions with a good back story like you used to get in the early Citadel Journals and Compendiums.The Regiments of renown were always good to read and get an idea on each set.
- D&L Caves - SG up to 10 sprues, 150 props planned, no launch date yet need to get prepaints sorted first
- SSG - pick 1 theme per SSG as part of pledge - see image for details
- Add on concepts see pics - 1 sprue makes 1 quarter 4 sprues in set.
- D&L 5 - Evil Eye includes a movable eye ball, displacer comes with 2 riders - new rescaled one and the original small one
- No dice planned for D&L it would take it's own campaign
- MoTU dice sets planned, no new board for wave 7, new terrain and minis, Glimmer, Castapella, Frosta, Angella,, Bow, She-Ra
- HoMM production has started and will run to January 2024, first sets due in November (non Big Box or preshaded) for shipping in December, shipping runs up to February for Big Box and preshaded. Produced and prepacked in China,
- Titanomachy early WIPs shown - Human mini shown for scale is from Wolfenstein. (Wolfenstein license has expired)
- New Sci-Fi terrain will be part of Titanomachy rather than Rampart - should have terrain only option
> Does the idea of specific encounters with some props sound appealing?
Sounds great. At least for generic fantasy, review the D&D Starters and any popular adventures, and make encounter sets for them.
Also include at least one freebie scenario for a side quest. Have these scenarios link together to form a campaign. Then write more scenarios that use these encounter sets with your other Archon products (eg. Elven Woods). And, of course, create scenarios for miniature skirmish games that use the encounter sets.
I know Reaper had some encounter sets during their Bones KS, more as set pieces. Steamforged Games has their Epic Encounters, but I think they're overpriced. WizKids is doing some hybrid of 2D acrylic standees and 3D prepaints.
Also: Need "corner clips" so those dang wall corners don't separate and leave a gap between them! :/
Also: Those six trees in the "Elven Woods" and "Trees Pack" are the best generic fantasy terrain ever. Most often used and not too demanding to paint.
Also: I don't know why I have so many ritual-themed miniature skirmish game scenarios, but I have them. This will certainly come in handy. A "circle on the floor" piece also appreciated.
When it comes to encounters or other scenes like that, the main thing for me is that they have to be repeatable. Which is to say, you want to get multiple uses out of components. That's the advantage of a caravan set for instance. Caravan pieces can of course be used for, well, being part of the caravan in an ambush but they can also be used in a village square or places like that. More generic bandits also are things that almost always find a use (I mean, come on. Bandits are used all the time) and some guards can also be used as guards in other settings or as mercenaries or other sorts of warriors. Or even as more bandits for that matter. The one request I would have for such a set would be to not have drivers and the like attached to vehicles because they tend to limit it more.
A few other ideas that quickly come to mind that can be used on multiple occasions:
1) A campsite with things like a campfire, a few tents, bedrolls, things like that. It could be used as the party's camp that's being attacked in the night (so there would have to be suitable baddies for that) but could, with a few different components, also be used as the encampment of those baddies. You could for instance have different pieces of luggage, a mule, a simple weapons rack, and things like that.
2) Regular peasants. I know, this is a huge weak spot of mine, but I love having civilians and have way too many models for them already. That said, they can be very useful. You could for instance have them as prisoners or as the terrified villagers who face an attack by some sort of monster. This works best with a slaving species as the baddies and although I can't speak for others, it would be amazing to have the peasants not be predominantly human. Everyone has human civilians, but where are my dwarfs, halflings, and the like?
3) This one is a little different, but how about different traps and their users? So you would have a bunch of kobolds (who love traps) and a bunch of traps that can fit into the regular layouts. This would range from a pit trap, rolling boulder, and the like to arrow launchers in the walls, those swinging blades, and tons of others that can add a lot to encounters. I for one always liked combining traps with combat elements to make them more of a challenge.
Dolnikan wrote: When it comes to encounters or other scenes like that, the main thing for me is that they have to be repeatable. Which is to say, you want to get multiple uses out of components. That's the advantage of a caravan set for instance. Caravan pieces can of course be used for, well, being part of the caravan in an ambush but they can also be used in a village square or places like that. More generic bandits also are things that almost always find a use (I mean, come on. Bandits are used all the time) and some guards can also be used as guards in other settings or as mercenaries or other sorts of warriors. Or even as more bandits for that matter. The one request I would have for such a set would be to not have drivers and the like attached to vehicles because they tend to limit it more.
A few other ideas that quickly come to mind that can be used on multiple occasions:
1) A campsite with things like a campfire, a few tents, bedrolls, things like that. It could be used as the party's camp that's being attacked in the night (so there would have to be suitable baddies for that) but could, with a few different components, also be used as the encampment of those baddies. You could for instance have different pieces of luggage, a mule, a simple weapons rack, and things like that.
2) Regular peasants. I know, this is a huge weak spot of mine, but I love having civilians and have way too many models for them already. That said, they can be very useful. You could for instance have them as prisoners or as the terrified villagers who face an attack by some sort of monster. This works best with a slaving species as the baddies and although I can't speak for others, it would be amazing to have the peasants not be predominantly human. Everyone has human civilians, but where are my dwarfs, halflings, and the like?
3) This one is a little different, but how about different traps and their users? So you would have a bunch of kobolds (who love traps) and a bunch of traps that can fit into the regular layouts. This would range from a pit trap, rolling boulder, and the like to arrow launchers in the walls, those swinging blades, and tons of others that can add a lot to encounters. I for one always liked combining traps with combat elements to make them more of a challenge.
Dolnikan, those are some excellent points.
The suggestion to have the wagon drivers separate is a particularly good one.
In my opinion the concept of making everything as multipurpose as possible is really key in convincing people to make what would be for them a very cost effective purchase. Getting an aesthetic that is generic enough to be multipurpose but not so bland as to be boring is quite the challenge. Modular options to decorate pieces to the desire of the customer may be part of the solution.
Non-human civilians would be nice. Two poses for each figure would be nice. One peaceful, one violent. So a farmer working the field or talking to someone and then the sams figure brandishing a torch and pitchfork. Right now I am using Fireforge Rabble for that kind of thing but they are on the large side and angry mobs look better with more diversity, especially medieval fantasy mobs.
Scale is a tricky issue. It is impossible to please everyone all the time. This has come up repeatedly with D&L already. Terrain needs to be designed big enough to take into account the bases for miniatures not just the height of the figures.
Also: Those six trees in the "Elven Woods" and "Trees Pack" are the best generic fantasy terrain ever. Most often used and not too demanding to paint.
Agreed. They both are the best terrain from Archon so far. Useful in any setting.
Dolnikan wrote:When it comes to encounters or other scenes like that, the main thing for me is that they have to be repeatable. Which is to say, you want to get multiple uses out of components. That's the advantage of a caravan set for instance. Caravan pieces can of course be used for, well, being part of the caravan in an ambush but they can also be used in a village square or places like that. More generic bandits also are things that almost always find a use (I mean, come on. Bandits are used all the time) and some guards can also be used as guards in other settings or as mercenaries or other sorts of warriors. Or even as more bandits for that matter. The one request I would have for such a set would be to not have drivers and the like attached to vehicles because they tend to limit it more.
This!
A campsite with things like a campfire, a few tents, bedrolls, things like that. It could be used as the party's camp that's being attacked in the night (so there would have to be suitable baddies for that) but could, with a few different components, also be used as the encampment of those baddies. You could for instance have different pieces of luggage, a mule, a simple weapons rack, and things like that.
Most of this is in Elven Woods kit - you get 2 tents, campfire, 2 beds etc. camp thing there.
Yes, it was my desire to have the caravan traders have a leg variant where you can either make them so they ride the caravan, or they just stand normally.
As for everyone asking for a wargame, we've actually already announced that we're working on one in collaboration with Andy Chambers and Jervis Johnson, but due to various unfortunate circumstances, the project has been put on the backburner for now. We might have more information about it in a month.
Other than that, we're still working on Titanomachy but we also had that teaser in the last livestream. In addition to that, we also have 1 other planned project, but I don't think I'm allowed to mention what it is because we haven't announced it anywhere yet.
I have a different question, did anyone here ever manage to play the 2nd Edition of Mutant Chronicles Warzone Resurrection? From what I can tell, the game was really liked but it never reached a wider audience.
I have a different question, did anyone here ever manage to play the 2nd Edition of Mutant Chronicles Warzone Resurrection? From what I can tell, the game was really liked but it never reached a wider audience.
I rage quit (I was extremely unhappy with WZ being turned into some weird amalgam of 40k, starcraft, whatever s-f. Wolfsbanes on giant wolves and tractors was the final nail in the ''can't stand it'' coffin, which prevented me from ever playing the 2nd edition.) during 1st ed so never played the second but from the read I can tell that it was a definite improvement over 1st when it comes to rules.
Part of it could be people like me = veterans of 1st,2nd, UWZ editions of WZ, and total MC fanatics, who as I were unhappy. WZR failed with them (majority of potential sales, at least for the first years of WZR's life), and in its new form was not enough to attract casual gamers.
For me, I just tune out any game that relies on boutique resin models and pricing. Also, wasn't Prodos at the time mostly known as "the people who stole all the money from AvP kickstarter?"
lord_blackfang wrote: Also, wasn't Prodos at the time mostly known as "the people who stole all the money from AvP kickstarter?"
I wish it was that simple.
To be clear, we still ended up delivering everything, with only the 50 backers who didn't close their pledge not getting what they paid for. A full explanation was pretty recently given by our CEO on a podcast, but unfortunately, the entire thing is in Polish.
Basically, there was a massive problem with approvals as 20th Century Fox was in the middle of being acquired by Disney, and the person responsible for approvals kept changing. One time, one of them asked what was with the spiders in the box. It turns out he was talking about facehuggers. I'd say it's a pretty funny story looking at it retrospectively, but kind of tragic too.
Make that 51 backers who didn't get what they paid for. I pledged extra for invisible Predators - the things I was most excited about from the campaign - and never received them or my money back. (I did receive the game itself and other add-ons I'd purchased.)
I think Archon is headed in exciting directions these days, but that still bothers me.
Talking Banana wrote: Make that 51 backers who didn't get what they paid for. I pledged extra for invisible Predators - the things I was most excited about from the campaign - and never received them or my money back. (I did receive the game itself and other add-ons I'd purchased.)
I think Archon is headed in exciting directions these days, but that still bothers me.
You can reach out to Szymon by sending an email to szymon@archon-studio.com, and he'll take care of it for you.
At this point, I'm even more convinced that we're in a prime position to take over the miniature market, considering the fact that GW's process is much less efficient but they have the money to throw more people at the problem. All we need is just 1 miniature-related project that becomes massively popular.
It's pretty absurd that you can do two dozen new tools on a 1 million euro kickstarter.
I expected you to have a mass battle game out by now, honestly. You clearly have the manufacturing capacity to overtake companies like Mantic in your sleep if you wanted to. Do a KS for a wargame, starting with 4 factions of 4 sprues each should be child's play. Make it 10-15mm so we can field dozens of tanks and you sell dozens of the same sprue. The rules I've seen coming from Archon have all been top tier too. Just need an evocative setting. Or maybe partner up with someone already doing good stuff... take a look at Full Spectrum Dominance. Just throwing it out there.
You're absolutely correct. Indeed, we've been diligently working on a Sci-Fi miniatures game for quite some time (Starcide/Chronoshards). However, due to extensive discussions surrounding an IP licensing deal (also sci-fi), which has spanned over three years!!!!!, we decided to temporarily put our own project on hold.
This precautionary measure ensures that we don't compete within the same product genre, plus we had no capacity to work on two projects at the same time.
In hindsight, opting to put the wargaming project on hold turned out to be a good decision. It enabled us to channel our grey cells into the Dungeons and Lasers product line, which, contributed to the growth of Archon by strengthening our production, CNC, and engineering.
I believe that three years ago, we weren't prepared to launch any wargames (own IP) in plastic injection. Doing so would have likely resulted in a false start, and collapse of Archon.
However, today, it's an entirely different narrative. I firmly believe that we are more than prepared now - design, sculpting, production, marketing, sales, and shipping - all boxes are ticked.
Going back to the projects 2024/25:
Our second project, Titanomachy, has already been announced. It features mech combat, pre-painted sprues, and brand new sci-fi Rampart terrain, all also pre-painted.
As for our third project, we're gearing up to unveil it soon.
It's a Fantasy 32mm scale mass battle miniatures game, based on a well-known IP. I mean, we kinda sneak peek it already.
The central issue we're pondering is whether it makes sense to proceed with two mass miniature wargames set in IP settings, or if we should focus our efforts on a single one while revisiting the Starcide/Chromoshards project.
@Archon Studio
(Assuming I am talking to CEO = Jarek here?) Can you please tell if:
1) Will we see M&M sculpts from the boardgame KS released separately, and if yes, how soon?
2) Will you release another giant but this time with options (at least 2 heads,2 weapons etc.)?
3) Will you release animals pack, with enough minis for each species to make the purchase valiable (at least 6+ wolves, 10+ giant rats, 6+ birds etc.) for both RPG and wargame purposes?
4) Will you release ruins and medieval village terrain kits?
Archon Studio wrote: The central issue we're pondering is whether it makes sense to proceed with two mass miniature wargames set in IP settings, or if we should focus our efforts on a single one while revisiting the Starcide/Chromoshards project.
I have no experience in business or marketing, but my opinion is that currently you rely a lot on a loyal, repeat customer base of D&L, mostly RPG players. I would not try to push them into two big alternative products at the same time. You still need to build up reputation with wargamers.
Re: Starcide, I have a lot of sample packs by now I like the sci-fi Snakemen, but somehow what I've seen so far doesn't excite me.
Szymon_Archon wrote: Dang, ok. I was not here during this time so I wanted to get people's opinion on it, and why it didn't perform.
for, it just wasn't Warzone. As far as this was concerned I was an old grognard who didn't want a new game, I wanted the old game - just with nicer figures.
But generally I'm loving all the Archon stuff, I personally backed the Aztec style terrain kickstarter and as a retailer I stock a selection and I really enjoy painting the Master of the Universe: Battleground range (He-Man & Battle Cat was a particular joy).
Shadow Walker wrote: @Archon Studio
(Assuming I am talking to CEO = Jarek here?) Can you please tell if:
1) Will we see M&M sculpts from the boardgame KS released separately, and if yes, how soon?
2) Will you release another giant but this time with options (at least 2 heads,2 weapons etc.)?
3) Will you release animals pack, with enough minis for each species to make the purchase valiable (at least 6+ wolves, 10+ giant rats, 6+ birds etc.) for both RPG and wargame purposes?
4) Will you release ruins and medieval village terrain kits?
1. Right now, we don't have any concrete plans to use the same sculpts again, nor to release in any other form than the board game miniatures, but this could change in the future, I guess.
2. Absolutely, especially with the new IP wargame we're currently developing.
3. There's a possibility we might consider it for the next crowdfunding DnL miniatures campaign - Szymon is strongly advocating for it.
4. You bet! Especially in relation to point 2. 😉
I'm very excited for what the future has in store for us, as we really are sitting on a massive pile of potential, and we're really only just getting started. I really want more of our future sets to have more options when it comes to assembling miniatures, as it's one of the many advantages of having everything on a sprue. We have started experimenting with multi-part miniatures in D&L V, and I'm hoping that we'll be able to expand on it in future campaigns.
Archon Studio wrote:
1. Right now, we don't have any concrete plans to use the same sculpts again, nor to release in any other form than the board game miniatures, but this could change in the future, I guess.
2. Absolutely, especially with the new IP wargame we're currently developing.
3. There's a possibility we might consider it for the next crowdfunding DnL miniatures campaign - Szymon is strongly advocating for it.
4. You bet! Especially in relation to point 2. 😉
Thanks
Jarek
Great news. Thanks!
Szymon_Archon wrote:Well, there you have it
Do not stop harassing Jarek with good ideas - eventually he will be so annoyed he will agree (or you get fired)
lord_blackfang wrote:Yes I can't wait until you start doing true multipart unit kits like GW, Frostgrave, Wargames Atlantic...
Yeah, Frostgrave like kits but without those stupid integral bases would be a dream.
While I've no need of another mass battle game it's great to hear that there are more minis that I can use as alternatives (more Giants!) and fantasy terrain coming
> The central issue we're pondering is whether it makes sense to proceed with two mass miniature wargames set in IP settings
No way. Market's crowded with "lifestyle" games as it is. FFG's even entered the chat room and has enough money to fund then drop a game -- then release another.
> for, it just wasn't Warzone. As far as this was concerned I was an old grognard who didn't want a new game,
> currently you rely a lot on a loyal, repeat customer base of D&L, mostly RPG players. I would not try to push them into two big alternative products at the same time.
Agreed. FWIW, Myself, as a collector of generic fantasy, I'm looking at solo miniature skirmish games for narrative and combat. I rotate among different solo miniature skirmish games and should actually play some of my solo boardgames. While I'm hesitant to buy an entirely new set of miniatures for a new mass combat game, it's easier for me to buy generic terrain and figures I can use for games I already play.
I think Osprey Games / Nick's Miniatures has *a* right formula:
* Multiple miniature agnostic rulesets, take your choice.
* You already have miniatures to play the game.
* You don't need to buy miniatures made only by one company.
* You don't need many miniatures to play.
* BUT if you want more stuff, the company that sold you the rules has miniatures you can use.theirs.
Anecdotally, I remember the *trees* being Archon's most popular offering during D&L4 (with requests starting at D&L3) so start your scenarios there. I would start with stealing ideas from Lasting Tales, a miniature skirmish game that lets you build your opponent forces from *your* supply of miniatures, and Song of Blade and Heroes, which allows you to build a warband based on special abilities, so, again, you can use your own supply of miniatures. Yet, at the same time, both games encourage you to BUY MOAR STUFF by providing miniature stats for miniatures you don't have in your collection.
I just bought the Archon "Thos the young dragon" and was impressed by the quality. In terms of size, I think monsters are probably a safe choice for Archon as the scale doesn't have to be as precise. For example, I think this dragon would work in Lord of the Rings or Warhammer Fantasy battles, or even D&D without any problem.
As you guys are Polish, I will suggest that you contact the Spanish team Alkimia Interactive that is making the remake of the German video game Gothic, and see if you could make a miniatures game from the Gothic IP! Knowing that Poland has the biggest fan and modding community for that game makes me believe you are likely familiar with it.
It has great monster designs, good types of armor designs for different factions, and could work well as a skirmish game or as an rpg! Having that in a WFB scale would be my dream!
Talking Banana wrote: Make that 51 backers who didn't get what they paid for. I pledged extra for invisible Predators - the things I was most excited about from the campaign - and never received them or my money back. (I did receive the game itself and other add-ons I'd purchased.)
I think Archon is headed in exciting directions these days, but that still bothers me.
As the CEO mentioned, please feel free to contact me and we should be able to sort something out
@ced1106 I will say that there are various issues when creating a wargame that can use any miniature, mainly the fact that you're going to be making a lot less from the miniatures you personally release. Even creating generic miniatures that people would use for other systems doesn't help, as people would rather just purchase GW miniatures or keep the ones that they already have. Generally speaking, we absolutely do not want to compete with GW in any capacity, even if we are occupying the same space. This is also why Para Bellum's Conquest has a much larger scale and doesn't use as many generic miniatures.
I will be entirely upfront about how this is about the money because creating even 1 tool is already a pretty big investment (even if our process is incredibly efficient) as that tool is also just something that we could have created for a different company instead and potentially earned more that way.
Personally, I do think that a middle ground is possible - a way to create generic miniatures and still encourage people to actually purchase the miniatures, and that would be by adding paper elements into the game and making them available through miniature sets. The reality is that we're not like Osprey and we don't publish our own books, so it also wouldn't be our primary source of income.
Archon Studio wrote: The central issue we're pondering is whether it makes sense to proceed with two mass miniature wargames set in IP settings, or if we should focus our efforts on a single one while revisiting the Starcide/Chromoshards project.
I would not try to push them into two big alternative products at the same time.
I agree. Two mass battles lines are definitely too much for the start. Once you are established on that front in few years you can always revisit the idea.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Regarding scale, I'm most interested in 28 to 32mm, and regarding genre, I prefer sci-fi. I generally only dip into fantasy when it can be easily ported into sci-fi. (Using demons and monsters as aliens, etc.)
But I won't pretend to know how to make money in this business. Perhaps if you revisit Starcide, you should start smaller and begin with a skirmish game that you could expand into a full war game if it does well enough. Personally, my favorite Starcide models were the snake men.
As far as established properties go, Starcraft is the only unclaimed one I can think of that would be strong enough to establish a mass battles following.
What kind of sci-fi are we talking about? There are tons of different genres. Personally, I'm a massive fan of the Cyberpunk setting. Project Moon has one of my favourite universes, it's Cyberpunk + SCP with a bit of fantasy sprinkled in. Across their 3 games, they've massively developed their world, although it's a shame their games are somewhat inaccessible. I think a skirmish game based on Library of Ruina's combat mechanics would be amazing, although it might be next to impossible to port it over to the tabletop. Beating 4 dice in a row with one counter die brings a high I don't think I've ever gotten from any other turn based battler.
Szymon_Archon wrote: What kind of sci-fi are we talking about? There are tons of different genres. Personally, I'm a massive fan of the Cyberpunk setting. Project Moon has one of my favourite universes, it's Cyberpunk + SCP with a bit of fantasy sprinkled in. Across their 3 games, they've massively developed their world, although it's a shame their games are somewhat inaccessible. I think a skirmish game based on Library of Ruina's combat mechanics would be amazing, although it might be next to impossible to port it over to the tabletop. Beating 4 dice in a row with one counter die brings a high I don't think I've ever gotten from any other turn based battler.
Something a bit different from the usual sci-fi crowd… perhaps something to consider would be a collaboration with Kosmos 68, an alternative history Soviet Sci-fi setting with an interestingly different aesthetic for the humans and various aliens.It may be too niche for some but the setting is unusual and the minis could proxy well into other games.
lord_blackfang wrote: You just told a Polish person to make a setting where USSR won, huh.
(looks great tho, I love Stanislaw Lem)
Stanislaw Lem is one of the reasons why I considered it may be something of interest to the folks of Archon Studio.
From the introduction of the blog…
“This blog and KOSMOS 68 is not endorsing the USSR or the Socialist system that it administered. Nothing you read here should be interpreted as some kind of apologia, or suggestion that maybe that system could have in reality reformed itself and created this future, fulfilling the promises made to raise all humanity to the sunlight upper fields of true Communism.”
And I find the setting of a dystopian Soviet Communist future no less and yet no more more horrific than a dystopian American Capitalist one. Just intriguingly different.
I think you know the risks of two product lines in different genre, there aren't many economies of scale to be had outside of manufacturing.
I think retails are happy for new products, but with controllable SKUs. Too many SKUs is just unsustainable for a lot of stores, especially if they are all needed to some extent.
Against that, is time running out for hobby injection moulding? You return of investment is going to have to be fast enough to cash in pre widespread use of 3D printing. If you can diversify outside of toys using plastic that might work, but otherwise the slow growth approach of companies in the past might not work if the future heralds a likely big change.
Why would they need to worry about the 3D printing? Anyone interested in hard plastic minis would want hard plastic minis instead resin they dislike (insert here variety of reasons).
Why would they need to worry about the 3D printing? Anyone interested in hard plastic minis would want hard plastic minis instead resin they dislike (insert here variety of reasons).
I agree with Shadow Walker. For quite awhile folks have talked about 3d printing changing everything but I do not think the technology can fully replace HIPs any more than cast resin did.
Szymon_Archon wrote: What kind of sci-fi are we talking about? There are tons of different genres. Personally, I'm a massive fan of the Cyberpunk setting. Project Moon has one of my favourite universes, it's Cyberpunk + SCP with a bit of fantasy sprinkled in. Across their 3 games, they've massively developed their world, although it's a shame their games are somewhat inaccessible. I think a skirmish game based on Library of Ruina's combat mechanics would be amazing, although it might be next to impossible to port it over to the tabletop. Beating 4 dice in a row with one counter die brings a high I don't think I've ever gotten from any other turn based battler.
I think Shadowrun has a lot of potential, and lets you use minis for the RPG and develop a skirmish game as different gangs/runners compete for objectives. Cyberpunk + D&D!
@Szymon_Archon I am mostly into miniatures and not the gaming part, but overall I prefer large scale/open ended sci-fi settings as that allows a wider variety of cool technology/gear, various kinds of human factions and aliens that are more than just human bodies with a different head.
Stargrave does a nice job in terms of generic miniatures for space settings or small scale land settings, but they lack on the alien department for example and although you could use their miniatures to make an imposing army with the troopers for example, they are still mostly designed for small scale forces and not a full army with standard gear and stuff.
My preference of open ended settings is linked to the fact that I might want to represent a highly populated colony somewhere and do a few types of gangsters, factory workers and stuff (including unarmed people), which wouldn't be that different from many futurist settings we have represented on movies about Earth's dystopian future, but I might also want to represent a distant farming world or a mining world, which would be represented by different gear and in the case of soldiers with different weapons, armour and other stuff to match the environment.
These kinds of different sub settings within a larger setting can be used for adding a large number of interesting military forces, vehicles and civilians and in terms of miniature development you could focus on a small subset at a time, based on what themes would be preferred by customers.
Szymon_Archon wrote: What kind of sci-fi are we talking about? There are tons of different genres. Personally, I'm a massive fan of the Cyberpunk setting.
I respect your preference, but Cyberpunk doesn't interest me that much. A sci-fi book without aliens is fine, but when it comes to miniatures, I'm not really into settings that consist exclusively of various human factions. I've got a strong preference for alien races, and I pretty much agree with Green Scorpion's take: I prefer aliens that are more than just humanoids with different heads. Basically I'm thinking Wayne Barlowe aliens, with physiognomies that are different because the creator thought carefully about the different environmental conditions they would have developed in and how their anatomies would have adapted and evolved.
The bottom line, though, is the rule of cool. If there's a miniature game with non-humanoid aliens but the alien designs just aren't that inspired, I won't be buying it. The designs have to be excellent and part of a captivating world that's developed enough to intrigue, but not so developed that it stifles players from shaping their own stories.
Perhaps I prefer my sci-fi with a bit of horror, too. It's ancient history now, and it wasn't particularly successful, but I thought the Strain concept and designs for Sedition Wars were fantastic. Likewise, years ago I was captivated by the Dead Space and Dead Space 2 video games, from the creature designs to the faux Scientology lore of the creepy Unitologists. That was some fantastic world-building.
I'll also give a shout out to the sci-fi setup of Maelstrom's Edge: it doesn't feel like they've been able to fully capitalize on it for whatever reason, but ME has the closest analogy I can think of to global warming in gaming sci-fi. Every year the idea of billions of desperate people trying to flee doomed planets, and all the conflicts that generates, gets more and more relevant to the way climate change is upending our world and turning more and more people into climate refugees.
Against that, is time running out for hobby injection moulding? You return of investment is going to have to be fast enough to cash in pre widespread use of 3D printing. If you can diversify outside of toys using plastic that might work, but otherwise the slow growth approach of companies in the past might not work if the future heralds a likely big change.
When someone comes up with a 3D printer that costs the same as an inkjet printer and works in HIPS with resin-printer quality, the days of injection moulded plastic will be numbered... But that printer doesn't exist yet, and is not even possible with the currently available technology.
Against that, is time running out for hobby injection moulding? You return of investment is going to have to be fast enough to cash in pre widespread use of 3D printing. If you can diversify outside of toys using plastic that might work, but otherwise the slow growth approach of companies in the past might not work if the future heralds a likely big change.
When someone comes up with a 3D printer that costs the same as an inkjet printer and works in HIPS with resin-printer quality, the days of injection moulded plastic will be numbered... But that printer doesn't exist yet, and is not even possible with the currently available technology.
And not also be a toxic mess like resin that I'm really surprised doesn't have some regulation over disposal because you're not supposed to throw anything not cured away as it can leak into ground water when in a dump. The current stuff is no where near safe enough for a lot of people to have in their homes.
Against that, is time running out for hobby injection moulding? You return of investment is going to have to be fast enough to cash in pre widespread use of 3D printing. If you can diversify outside of toys using plastic that might work, but otherwise the slow growth approach of companies in the past might not work if the future heralds a likely big change.
When someone comes up with a 3D printer that costs the same as an inkjet printer and works in HIPS with resin-printer quality, the days of injection moulded plastic will be numbered... But that printer doesn't exist yet, and is not even possible with the currently available technology.
And not also be a toxic mess like resin that I'm really surprised doesn't have some regulation over disposal because you're not supposed to throw anything not cured away as it can leak into ground water when in a dump. The current stuff is no where near safe enough for a lot of people to have in their homes.
I agree. I can't believe how cavalier I've seen some people acting about resin curing waste water and the fumes from resin etc. I hate that it isn't more highly regulated.
Szymon_Archon wrote: What kind of sci-fi are we talking about? There are tons of different genres. Personally, I'm a massive fan of the Cyberpunk setting.
I respect your preference, but Cyberpunk doesn't interest me that much. A sci-fi book without aliens is fine, but when it comes to miniatures, I'm not really into settings that consist exclusively of various human factions. I've got a strong preference for alien races, and I pretty much agree with Green Scorpion's take: I prefer aliens that are more than just humanoids with different heads. Basically I'm thinking Wayne Barlowe aliens, with physiognomies that are different because the creator thought carefully about the different environmental conditions they would have developed in and how their anatomies would have adapted and evolved.
The bottom line, though, is the rule of cool. If there's a miniature game with non-humanoid aliens but the alien designs just aren't that inspired, I won't be buying it. The designs have to be excellent and part of a captivating world that's developed enough to intrigue, but not so developed that it stifles players from shaping their own stories.
Perhaps I prefer my sci-fi with a bit of horror, too. It's ancient history now, and it wasn't particularly successful, but I thought the Strain concept and designs for Sedition Wars were fantastic. Likewise, years ago I was captivated by the Dead Space and Dead Space 2 video games, from the creature designs to the faux Scientology lore of the creepy Unitologists. That was some fantastic world-building.
I'll also give a shout out to the sci-fi setup of Maelstrom's Edge: it doesn't feel like they've been able to fully capitalize on it for whatever reason, but ME has the closest analogy I can think of to global warming in gaming sci-fi. Every year the idea of billions of desperate people trying to flee doomed planets, and all the conflicts that generates, gets more and more relevant to the way climate change is upending our world and turning more and more people into climate refugees.
Some excellent points that I think echo a lot of folks views from what I read on various blogs, Dakka Dakka and the lead adventure forum.
I think Maelstrom’s Edge is an excellent setting which offers a lot of possible factions (for various different minis) and yet lends a sense of urgency toothed conflict. The artwork aesthetics are broadly appealing in a nicely toned down look that works in numerous other settings and the quality of the figures is decent. The question is, why does it not do better financially?
The same could be said for Mantic‘s sci-fi setting. But does it dominate the business over the fantasy side the same way 40k dominates over fantasy over at Games Workshop?
The folks over at Dwarven Forge talk a lot about the issue of designing sci-fi terrain is that so much of sci-fi is very specific in its aesthetics, unlike medieval fantasy which is much more forgiving.
I never thought of Battle Systems Core Space as a cyberpunk setting until I heard the designers talk about their view in it being originally very much a cyberpunk setting in their design process. At first, as much as I loved the aesthetics of Core Space, the overall setting was not one I loved. I disliked the corrupt corporate law enforcement and the lack of a visibly organized governmental military presence (ala Colonial Marines of the Alien franchise). It focuses so much on Firefly style petty criminals. However it has definitely grown on me and I love it now. So much so my love of it convinced me to back the Maladrum fantasy game KS from Battle Systems (admittedly as a late backer) because Colin at Core Space said it was an in-Universe evolution of Core Space and that there would be more overtly obvious crossover. So brand loyalty so to speak helped this customer cross over to both lines, sci-fi and fantasy.
My point of all this is that if Archon wants to have a largely successful sci-fi product one option is to develop a game and setting for that game. But for it to work it, in my opinion, need a long term committed plan to worldbuilding for that game setting. It needs to be something cool, broadly appealing to numerous customers, with room for a lot of flavors of factions (and minis).
Wargames Atlantic has been doing this with Deathfields and while I dislike the setting many others seem to love it. And it creates a potential to make minis that not only fit that setting but work well as GW40k proxies… a lucrative niche.
Considering the discussion about resin handling and how the time for resin in tabletop should have an end in the future: Shouldn’t production of model sprues for other companies be a lucrative business for the future? I’ve heard some gossip on Mantic going for such production partnerships recently and increasing their quality by this. When I consider other wargames publishers, like f.e. TTCombat, who provide a nice games like DFC/DZC or Carnevalle, but only offer new releases in resin, which together with bad supply chains (since brexit it is a nightmare to get stuff shipped) and poor QM leads to people turning away from the product. I really wish the guys over at TTC would start a business partnership with you guys. Especially as, at least in my bubble, new Archon Products are highly anticipated and people follow news which is basically free advertising as people are involved with the brand.
Also, do we have a rough estimate for the giants ruins terrain from one of the recent kickstarters? I really look forward for the kit
from a business point of view you want a good part of your sales to be your own stuff and not someone else
same way as Renedra while doing a lot of production for other companies, they still have their own dedicated line (terrain and bases)
yet, don't know how useful a Joint Venture between Archon and Mantic would be
for the IP, generic fantasy human style is much more forgiving than anything else and the market is bigger as also historicals would use it to a point while almost all fantasy settings have the same human style
yet there is not a lot of Dwarf, Elves or Orc terrain/buildings, for the same reason there is less SciFi stuff, it would be less generic and often only fit one setting/IP
kodos wrote: from a business point of view you want a good part of your sales to be your own stuff and not someone else
same way as Renedra while doing a lot of production for other companies, they still have their own dedicated line (terrain and bases)
yet, don't know how useful a Joint Venture between Archon and Mantic would be
I'm pretty certain Renedra sell far more Perry stuff than their own.
Also, don't Archon already do production for Mantic?
The points of Talking Banana and Grumpy Gnome about settings are really great and expand a bit on what I was referring to.
Many settings have explored the existence of aliens that are close to humans in aspect, but there are also some that have delved into more diversified species, including some based on existing animals/plants and some that are completely innovative.
To expand a bit more on my own post in the previous page of this thread, I will be using some examples from things that I have written related with a large scale sci-fi settings, but that are similar to many other settings in existence.
In my case I used a lot of fantasy settings as inspiration so you will see lots of things that would be normal on a fantasy setting.
Examples from my Cornelivs Maximvs series
- Human Factions - Imperials, Barbarians, Rebels. Different looks, weapons and equipment but essentially representable by a variety of human miniatures in existence.
- Human like Factions (races that are close to humans in looks) - Elders, Elves (Dark, Grey and regular), Dwarves, Fauns, Centaurs, Ogres. Slightly more variety of bodies compared to humans, but overall you can identify yourself with them to some degree.
- Anthropomorphized Factions - Scrovens (sentient potatoes that look like orcs from fantasy settings, my major inspiration was battle for wesnoth artwork), Treporers (giant moles that obviously live underground), Rocervars (rock based aliens like Thing from the fantastic 4), Anvestits (race based on amphibious creatures), Gastevs (wasp like creatures), Criostarpels (bipedal wolf like creatures). Still bear some resemblance to humans possessing some form of usable hands and legs.
- Non-Anthropomorphized Factions - Nibrevons (insectoid creatures like starship troopers or tyranids), Arbensis (closest thing would be ents but this race is more varied in looks resembling trees, bushes and other plants), Lagaxits (lizard like group of species that contains a wild variety of different shapes and functions), Amotgets (essentially shapeshifters whose original shape is unknown). Cannot be represent by humanoid creatures and possess a set weapons and wargear that are extremely different from the typical things you would use with your hands or similar body parts.
But that would be an ambitious gamble in hopes that it would have a broad enough appeal to be financially successful. That is the real trick, catching a big share of the hobby community.
Perhaps the more humanoid aliens as North Star have done for Stargrave would sell better.
Why would they need to worry about the 3D printing? Anyone interested in hard plastic minis would want hard plastic minis instead resin they dislike (insert here variety of reasons).
I agree with Shadow Walker. For quite awhile folks have talked about 3d printing changing everything but I do not think the technology can fully replace HIPs any more than cast resin did.
It has replaced at least half the sales in both the clubs I attend. Around a quarter of the members now have printers of various types and are using it for various things, as well as printing for others at cost (materials, % machine, electricity).
Why would they need to worry about the 3D printing? Anyone interested in hard plastic minis would want hard plastic minis instead resin they dislike (insert here variety of reasons).
I agree with Shadow Walker. For quite awhile folks have talked about 3d printing changing everything but I do not think the technology can fully replace HIPs any more than cast resin did.
It has replaced at least half the sales in both the clubs I attend. Around a quarter of the members now have printers of various types and are using it for various things, as well as printing for others at cost (materials, % machine, electricity).
No offence but unless there is a data for world wide change from HIPS into resin (I bet there is none) then it means only that some minority is using it for some niche gaming.
Why would they need to worry about the 3D printing? Anyone interested in hard plastic minis would want hard plastic minis instead resin they dislike (insert here variety of reasons).
I agree with Shadow Walker. For quite awhile folks have talked about 3d printing changing everything but I do not think the technology can fully replace HIPs any more than cast resin did.
It has replaced at least half the sales in both the clubs I attend. Around a quarter of the members now have printers of various types and are using it for various things, as well as printing for others at cost (materials, % machine, electricity).
Hard Plastic HIPS miniatures are very niche, but I don't think it's going anywhere any time soon unless someone develops a revolutionary solution. The thing with our miniatures is that they're cheaper but also safer than 3D miniatures. There's obviously also the fact that they're a lot more durable while also being detailed. If they're just for a display and aren't actively being used, the Resin is probably fine (look at some of Creature Caster's sculpts!), but for any kind of Wargame or TTRPG, HIPS is honestly the way to go. I recently did multiple drop tests on one of our miniatures and I can safely say that it's completely fine. Even if it wasn't it's still easy to put back together thanks to plastic glue.
GW is using it almost for all their minis, and they are the biggest fish, so I would not call it a niche Also there is a reason that Mantic, WGA, Fireforge, Northstar, Wyrd etc. do the same. It is resin and metal that are now niche materials even if in the past they were the most popular.
GW almost has a monopoly with how much market share they have, it's like comparing Steam to the Epic Games Store or GOG. HIPS minis for TTRPGs are very much a niche. Even if there are some companies that use HIPS minis, there's a huge barrier to entry, and most companies opt for other materials. WizKids still doesn't use HIPS very often, because it's way above their level of expertise. They have their sprues made in China for their Frameworks line, but they don't look particularly great because they're not fully aware of the entire production process, nor how to make it more efficient.
Szymon_Archon wrote: GW almost has a monopoly with how much market share they have, it's like comparing Steam to the Epic Games Store or GOG. HIPS minis for TTRPGs are very much a niche. Even if there are some companies that use HIPS minis, there's a huge barrier to entry, and most companies opt for other materials. WizKids still doesn't use HIPS very often, because it's way above their level of expertise. They have their sprues made in China for their Frameworks line, but they don't look particularly great because they're not fully aware of the entire production process, nor how to make it more efficient.
I agree that smaller companies have harder with HIPS than GW but they can always contact Archon . What I meant is that majority of gaming is HIPS, and it will not change with the introduction of resin printers. Majority of people prefer HIPS, and I cannot see them turning en masse to resin just because printers are getting better and cheaper. All the stories about 3D printing changing the market we hear since years are just that, stories.
Szymon_Archon wrote: GW almost has a monopoly with how much market share they have, it's like comparing Steam to the Epic Games Store or GOG. HIPS minis for TTRPGs are very much a niche. Even if there are some companies that use HIPS minis, there's a huge barrier to entry, and most companies opt for other materials. WizKids still doesn't use HIPS very often, because it's way above their level of expertise. They have their sprues made in China for their Frameworks line, but they don't look particularly great because they're not fully aware of the entire production process, nor how to make it more efficient.
I agree that smaller companies have harder with HIPS than GW but they can always contact Archon . What I meant is that majority of gaming is HIPS, and it will not change with the introduction of resin printers. Majority of people prefer HIPS, and I cannot see them turning en masse to resin just because printers are getting better and cheaper. All the stories about 3D printing changing the market we hear since years are just that, stories.
I think you're forgetting that Wargaming is a very niche hobby, at least in comparison to board games or card games :p
Szymon_Archon wrote: GW almost has a monopoly with how much market share they have, it's like comparing Steam to the Epic Games Store or GOG. HIPS minis for TTRPGs are very much a niche. Even if there are some companies that use HIPS minis, there's a huge barrier to entry, and most companies opt for other materials. WizKids still doesn't use HIPS very often, because it's way above their level of expertise. They have their sprues made in China for their Frameworks line, but they don't look particularly great because they're not fully aware of the entire production process, nor how to make it more efficient.
I agree that smaller companies have harder with HIPS than GW but they can always contact Archon . What I meant is that majority of gaming is HIPS, and it will not change with the introduction of resin printers. Majority of people prefer HIPS, and I cannot see them turning en masse to resin just because printers are getting better and cheaper. All the stories about 3D printing changing the market we hear since years are just that, stories.
I think you're forgetting that Wargaming is a very niche hobby, at least in comparison to board games or card games :p
I always forget just how niche analog tabletop wargaming is then I attend the Spiel convention in Essen or look at how many YouTube views a wargaming video gets compared to a PC game video. A bigger market means potential for more/better content being made…this is one reason I try to get the RPG and wargaming communities to work closer together. Dwarven Forge has been increasingly considering wargaming customers in addition to their core RPG customers.
Szymon_Archon wrote: GW almost has a monopoly with how much market share they have, it's like comparing Steam to the Epic Games Store or GOG. HIPS minis for TTRPGs are very much a niche. Even if there are some companies that use HIPS minis, there's a huge barrier to entry, and most companies opt for other materials. WizKids still doesn't use HIPS very often, because it's way above their level of expertise. They have their sprues made in China for their Frameworks line, but they don't look particularly great because they're not fully aware of the entire production process, nor how to make it more efficient.
I agree that smaller companies have harder with HIPS than GW but they can always contact Archon . What I meant is that majority of gaming is HIPS, and it will not change with the introduction of resin printers. Majority of people prefer HIPS, and I cannot see them turning en masse to resin just because printers are getting better and cheaper. All the stories about 3D printing changing the market we hear since years are just that, stories.
I think you're forgetting that Wargaming is a very niche hobby, at least in comparison to board games or card games :p
Of course it is but we are talking here about wargaming (even if with some RPG elements for some solo ones like Rangers of Shadow Deep etc.) not the other hobbies. Otherwise in the board games area PVC will always beat HIPS (and other materials as well) as boardgamers in majority do not want to build their minis etc.
Now, you might be wondering how to get your hands on these fantastic subthemes. In our Caves crowdfunding campaign, there will be three Super Stretch Goals. Each time one of these goals is unlocked, you will receive a list of three subthemes to choose from. Starting with the second pledge, you'll receive three subthemes of your choice for free, and if you opt for the all-in pledge, you'll be able to choose 9 sets of any combination out of the unlocked subthemes! And if that's not enough, worry not. These subthemes will also be available as optional add-ons. Last, but not least, you can choose between standard and pre-painted versions to suit your preferences!
Short question: Has someone experienced mould release agent to be leftover on the sprue? There is green/blueish liquid that smells a bit like vinegear on my Kazumi Temple Sprue and I am not sure how to handle it. Simply wash it of with water/soap? Wearing gloves required?
- New Airship renders (see images looks great ) stand 7-8cm tall. More variants later (red parts optional, swap for other variants). Middle section expandable, Working on Airship game for 2025,
- Master of Orion KS probably Q3 2024
- No plans for 15mm terrain (hinted at manufacturing for another company - likely Mantics Warpath Epic)
- No spell effects in Caves they will be part of the dice KS - Deuslair likely to ship in January last tools in December before move to new premises
- Caves likely pushed to January 2024 in order get prepaints right still prototyping
- Prepaints for terrain only for now, capacity issue
- Minecarts and tracks SG for caves
- Carnage tract in tinted clear plastic (pink/red)
- Titanomachy - WIPS early low detail and faction concepts Humans, Demons, AI - 3 sizes of Mech up to 3 walls tall of Rampart terrain (no more), new terrain - city ruins, prepaints inc. mechs. available 90cm x 90cm play area 5-6 titans per side, depends on titan size. Stater set with 2 factions, 3rd available separately. 32mm on foot titan hunters planned
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charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Short question: Has someone experienced mould release agent to be leftover on the sprue? There is green/blueish liquid that smells a bit like vinegear on my Kazumi Temple Sprue and I am not sure how to handle it. Simply wash it of with water/soap? Wearing gloves required?
never seen anything like that
i'd contact archon directly as it's certainly not something you should expect https://archon-studio.com/contact (or if you bought it from a retailer in the UK or EU just return it for a replacement)
I'm less enthusiastic about Titanomachy now that it's 28mm scaled with mech 3 Rampart stories tall and played on square Rampart terrain, but somehow also on a hex grid.
Does Archon have those painted pics on their website? I prefer to steal other's paint schemes, so I don't paint myself into a corner (eg. too many dark colors on a miniature).
Does Archon have those painted pics on their website? I prefer to steal other's paint schemes, so I don't paint myself into a corner (eg. too many dark colors on a miniature).
Neither my wife nor myself are professional photographers and our photos do not do the excellent paint work justice. They looked so absolutely amazing in person. Humble apologies for our poor efforts but we thought some folks may appreciate seeing them. I am sure some of the pieces can be seen in the retail box covers but I am unaware of a professional gallery of the work.
Does Archon have those painted pics on their website? I prefer to steal other's paint schemes, so I don't paint myself into a corner (eg. too many dark colors on a miniature).
Neither my wife nor myself are professional photographers and our photos do not do the excellent paint work justice. They looked so absolutely amazing in person. Humble apologies for our poor efforts but we thought some folks may appreciate seeing them. I am sure some of the pieces can be seen in the retail box covers but I am unaware of a professional gallery of the work.
Those are some absolutely amazing pictures. And I have to say, you're doing a lot to convince me to visit Spiel sometime as well even if it's a couple of hours away from here.
Does Archon have those painted pics on their website? I prefer to steal other's paint schemes, so I don't paint myself into a corner (eg. too many dark colors on a miniature).
Neither my wife nor myself are professional photographers and our photos do not do the excellent paint work justice. They looked so absolutely amazing in person. Humble apologies for our poor efforts but we thought some folks may appreciate seeing them. I am sure some of the pieces can be seen in the retail box covers but I am unaware of a professional gallery of the work.
Those are some absolutely amazing pictures. And I have to say, you're doing a lot to convince me to visit Spiel sometime as well even if it's a couple of hours away from here.
Danke! It is worth a road trip or train ride for a day of browsing and getting some decent “event junk food” if you catch my drift.
Archon Studio really put in a lot of effort by the look of their stand. I regret not getting any pictures of the entire stand but we were trying to be cautious not to take photos of people without permission.
@Archon Studio
@Szymon_Archon
One more about the possible future terrain: you could make a new (and/or an upgrade) Modular River kit that will introduce more irregular parts thus making a more natural river look.
Shadow Walker wrote: @Archon Studio
@Szymon_Archon
One more about the possible future terrain: you could make a new (and/or an upgrade) Modular River kit that will introduce more irregular parts thus making a more natural river look.
- Plan to eventually remaster D&L products to prepainted versions for retail release - unlikely that both unpainted and prepainted would be available at the same time.
- Prepaints are not done with acrylic paint, paint layer is already sealed on, no need for varnish.
- Survey soon to find out what older sets people want in prepainted
- Currently no plans to release small sets like the battlements or doors to retail - will be part of other sets.
- MoTU hoping to be able to release in US, Canada and Australia next year. Tournament support when released (also mentioned that CMoN should get access to European market.)
- Deuslair - Dragon Turtle finished - 3 sprues including optional shipwreck - showed more finished and assembled minis (best watched so I didn't screencap)
- Deuslair retail release end Q1 or Q2 - after backer shipping
- Caves - Mushrooms/undergrowth SG, bridges/arches concepted, small bridges 30mm wide, rather do 4 or 5 smaller elements that can be combined than 1 large, Core sets very generic in design, larger than before.
- Mini concepting now includes lower detail side and rear images to aid the sculptors
- Plan to eventually remaster D&L products to prepainted versions for retail release - unlikely that both unpainted and prepainted would be available at the same time.
Hopefully it does not mean that kits like Trees Pack etc. will stop to be sold.
I still check this forum pretty much daily, so no issues there
I'll send your suggestion to the team and see what they come up with, because I do agree it would be cool if you could (for example) add a crystal onto a wall and shine an LED light inside it.
- MoTU US/Canada/Australia release likely to be done by crowdfunding
- Deuslair - Airship and White Sands expansion in tooling.
- Caves - new concepts - rocky hills like encounters but sized to fit floor tile footprints will have bridges to connect them (every theme gets themed hills), double gates hinged and functional, props, traps - (see images)
- Rocky Caves core set (bigger than fantasy core set) - 6 hills, 4 curved walls, 16 half height curved walls, 6 short walls, 3 long walls, 5 long half walls, 6 short half walls, 5 long floors, 20 square floors, 8 corner floors, 4 props plus connectors (see image) numbers of parts subject to change (likely upwards)
- SSG about half the size of a core set.
- Miner pledge level €140 unpainted €200 prepainted (subject to change) - these prices are inclusive of VAT but campaign likely to be the ex VAT price with VAT collect in PM where applicable - Stretch pay option - 1 Core Set plus all SG plus any 3 of 9 SSG (WIP not final subject to change)
- there is a €92 pledge with no SSG
- HoMM wargame will be 32mm scaled rank and file, so minis are not compatible with the board game which is 24mm. New minis in HIPS will be made in house. Modular dragons mentioned - optional heads, wings etc.
- Shipping from China is taking 15 days longer due to route changes - containers have more than doubled in price adding an extra $100k in shipping costs which Archon will absorb for now but there is a limit to what they can cover. (China shipping is for HoMM - 24 containers needed).
- Deuslair delivery may include prepainted samples.
- MoTU - King Hiss to get a plastic redesign and rerelease, Wave 7 - Q1 2024, Q2 - KS for worldwide rerelease of Battleground - not 2nd edition but will include more new waves - can get new stuff only no need to get game again.
- Caves - Minotaur mini for returning backers
- a few more concepts shown see images
What product is the minotaur supposed to be for? I don't recall them in He-Man back in the day but admittedly I had moved onto Transformers by the time the final wave hit. I even let my subscription to the official He-Man magazine expire!
warboss wrote: What product is the minotaur supposed to be for? I don't recall them in He-Man back in the day but admittedly I had moved onto Transformers by the time the final wave hit. I even let my subscription to the official He-Man magazine expire!
It’s the returning backer reward but they usually also make it available to buy as part of the crowdfunding. Note final sculpt may differ a little from the concept.
I like cave spider (hopefully big pack of those incoming as WGA ones are a pain to build) and that minotaur looks cool (weapon options?).
@Szymon_Archon - any news about animals pack?
Shadow Walker wrote: I like cave spider (hopefully big pack of those incoming as WGA ones are a pain to build) and that minotaur looks cool (weapon options?).
@Szymon_Archon - any news about animals pack?
Honestly, we're quite far away from an animal pack. We haven't reached the point where we can release something directly to retail and have it be immediately profitable, which is why products that require tooling are almost exclusively left to crowdfunding. The only exception to this would be MOTU: Battleground, although that's a licensed product from a very well known IP so it's a bit different.
An animal pack like that would likely have to be part of our next campaign, which at this point would likely launch in 2025.
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Miguelsan wrote: Question for @Szymon_Archon: Do you know how (or who) was painted the Xenodragon from the old KS?
M.
No idea I'm afraid, we generally hire a variety of different painters. Maybe we should just get all of our promotional material from the CEO once he paints it? His Necron army looked great so I think he'd do a good job
Hey everyone, what did you think of our last livestream?
This time, we showed off the assembled pirate ship. It's worth noting that most of the parts here are entirely optional:
We're still working on our pre-painted terrain which looks better than ever. I really do think that the pre-painted terrain will allow us to break into the casual market and compete with giants like Wizkids. We still need to get the colours right, but I think we're on the right path!
Szymon, I would reconsider things like the blood stains on the prepainted terrain. That will look oddly repetitive very quickly. It also narrows the application, ie not everyone wants a violent crime scene every single time. The lighting effect is neat but if a person puts something other than a light source in that spot it may look odd.
The pirate airship does have something of a Mantic (and/or World of Warcraft) aesthetic to it.
Grumpy Gnome wrote: Szymon, I would reconsider things like the blood stains on the prepainted terrain. That will look oddly repetitive very quickly. It also narrows the application, ie not everyone wants a violent crime scene every single time. The lighting effect is neat but if a person puts something other than a light source in that spot it may look odd.
The pirate airship does have something of a Mantic (and/or World of Warcraft) aesthetic to it.
That's definitely what I was thinking too. It's a nice effect although I could see it getting repetitive. It's worth noting that we currently don't have any plans to release this set to retail, and it's incredibly easy to paint over if you want to add your own details or remove something.
- HoMM wargame will be 32mm scaled rank and file, so minis are not compatible with the board game which is 24mm. New minis in HIPS will be made in house. Modular dragons mentioned - optional heads, wings etc.
- Shipping from China is taking 15 days longer due to route changes - containers have more than doubled in price adding an extra $100k in shipping costs which Archon will absorb for now but there is a limit to what they can cover. (China shipping is for HoMM - 24 containers needed).
- Deuslair delivery may include prepainted samples.
- MoTU - King Hiss to get a plastic redesign and rerelease, Wave 7 - Q1 2024, Q2 - KS for worldwide rerelease of Battleground - not 2nd edition but will include more new waves - can get new stuff only no need to get game again.
- Caves - Minotaur mini for returning backers
- a few more concepts shown see images
Excited about the new stuff (especially the MoTU kickstarter and the pre-painted terrain) but a HoMM rank and file wargame seems such a bad move.
If anyone wants to do rank and flank, late this year will be the optimal time for it as The Old World introduces the concept to the current generation of wargamers but ends up being too deep and clunky for many of them.
Rank and file seems actually a good idea. HoMM‘s unit Stacks are an representation of multiples of the same troop type as well, although a very abstract one. So parallels are there. Also Archon can only profit if people like to use some HoMM sculpts for ToW or AoS so 32mm is neat.
HoMM offers a very good baseline: 9+ Factions, established IP, 7-14 Units for each Faction, Named Heroes, war machines and so on. Considering Sieges are a main part of the HoMM Gameplay I would be curious if it would see a good adaptation, so far many have dreamt of but few have managed to implement it.
Archon has also shown that they can do plastic well and each new wave showed further improvement to details. While the current plastic used is now flawless, it is still a good material to work with (although I wish it would be a bit softer). Also recent kickstarters have shown that they get more and more familiar with the creation of dynamic poses and unit variants by changes in subcomponents of models. Also their prices are just competitive.
lord_blackfang wrote: If anyone wants to do rank and flank, late this year will be the optimal time for it as The Old World introduces the concept to the current generation of wargamers but ends up being too deep and clunky for many of them.
You might be right, I've been a long time fan of WH in general but I've always really hated how the wargames GW makes feel clunky and unintuitive. I think they do a good job at creating faction identity (at the cost of balance), but that alone doesn't create a good game. I tend to personally enjoy card-based mechanics a lot more because it means that there are usually fewer rules in the rulebook and more stuff actually on the table, although these are just my personal tastes as an (admittedly) young adult.
Excited about the new stuff (especially the MoTU kickstarter and the pre-painted terrain) but a HoMM rank and file wargame seems such a bad move.
Why do you think a HoMM Rank & File wargame is a bad idea?
Because rank and file wargames need a lot of focus for them to work. It is a different story with Board Games and smaller Skirmish games like the MotU Battlegrounds. Apart from the game having competition with the Old World, Conquest, Kings of War and Song of Ice and Fire you can't get away with "just okay" rules and balance. It is a game category that requires a lot of commitment from the players so they tend to be more critical of it. Also the scale of choice seems weird imo.
Because rank and file wargames need a lot of focus for them to work. It is a different story with Board Games and smaller Skirmish games like the MotU Battlegrounds. Apart from the game having competition with the Old World, Conquest, Kings of War and Song of Ice and Fire you can't get away with "just okay" rules and balance. It is a game category that requires a lot of commitment from the players so they tend to be more critical of it. Also the scale of choice seems weird imo.
Oh, for sure. I'm aware of the fact that pretty much any game where it's normal to paint your miniatures attracts players who are a lot more invested and dedicated, although I'm not sure how that would make it a bad idea to make a wargame set in the M&M universe. We'll be paying a lot of attention to make sure the rules and balance are good, while also adding mechanics that are fun/unique.
I have no idea if R&F is a good option but I will for sure be happy with good, full of options, hard plastic miniatures for M&M, as they will be 100% usable for most fantasy games.
Because rank and file wargames need a lot of focus for them to work. It is a different story with Board Games and smaller Skirmish games like the MotU Battlegrounds. Apart from the game having competition with the Old World, Conquest, Kings of War and Song of Ice and Fire you can't get away with "just okay" rules and balance. It is a game category that requires a lot of commitment from the players so they tend to be more critical of it. Also the scale of choice seems weird imo.
Oh, for sure. I'm aware of the fact that pretty much any game where it's normal to paint your miniatures attracts players who are a lot more invested and dedicated, although I'm not sure how that would make it a bad idea to make a wargame set in the M&M universe. We'll be paying a lot of attention to make sure the rules and balance are good, while also adding mechanics that are fun/unique.
I am sure you will do a good job, i am just saying that is a very risky and resource demanding move compared to what you are already doing (which seems to work).
I am sure you will do a good job, i am just saying that is a very risky and resource demanding move compared to what you are already doing (which seems to work).
Yep! This is the main reason why we haven't released a proper Wargame yet. It's very risky and demands a lot of resources, but with our more recent successes and having a stable foundation to stand on (Manufacturing for others + Retail) we're able to take risks that wouldn't jeopardize the company but have a massive potential payoff. The CEO in general is in favor of slow and stable expansion, right now we're seeing mass layoffs in a lot of tech firms because they employed and expanded too much during the pandemic and it's something we want to avoid at all costs as they destroy company culture and morale (might sound a bit corporate but it's true).
I really do think we've built something special here, and I don't think we'd still be in business if we took the approach that most people have in the industry. Almost all studios that only publish board games via Kickstarter will eventually collapse under their own weight, as it's not a sustainable model. Delays and unexpected costs are inevitable, and you need a different income source to stay afloat when things get rough. CMON has a very large retail presence, while Awaken Realms owns Gamefound. Even most recently, CMON had a major issue with their tokens for their Dune game, but they're able to offer replacements because they're a large company that has multiple sources of income and can allocate resources where necessary.
Sasorijap wrote: Because rank and file wargames need a lot of focus for them to work. It is a different story with Board Games and smaller Skirmish games like the MotU Battlegrounds. Apart from the game having competition with the Old World, Conquest, Kings of War and Song of Ice and Fire you can't get away with "just okay" rules and balance. It is a game category that requires a lot of commitment from the players so they tend to be more critical of it. Also the scale of choice seems weird imo.
Lifestyle games. Once you hit "rank and flank", you're asking customers to dedicate hundreds of dollars and hours to a single game system. Moreover, you need a "critical mass" of customers for the game. In comparison, with a boardgame, you only need one guy to buy the game, and it's not more of a commitment than buying the base game. Boardgamers are a wider audience than miniature wargamers. As an erstwhile card flopper (: CCG's had their (first of many) gluts decades ago. As the market matured, the market got to the point where you *had* to attach an IP to a new CCG to attract attention. CMON's "Song of Ice and Fire" is doing well, and has an IP. Mantic's rereleasing "Walking Dead", and it has an IP. FFG's "Runewars" flopped, no IP.
Anyway, wanted to mention the obvious that HoMM scenarios should involve the Archon Encounter sets, and (at least some) HoMM figures should be usable in other game systems, including miniature skirmish games and RPG's.
The HoMM miniatures shouldn't be too "weird" as everything would have to be approved by Ubisoft first, so I could see the miniatures being usable in other game systems.
Mrs. GG and I used Dwarven Forge for our cavern needs. We tried the Archon D&L Dwarven Mines set and it just did not do it for us. So we did not expect this campaign to be for us as well. However, I have to admit Archon has me interested in at least considering it now. That surprises me.
Painted most of my Archon sci-fi tiles last year and realized painting terrain is not really fun to me and the pile is big enough. Prepainted is interesting to me, will have to see what's actually in the Core set. Daemonic caves combined with my Sci-fi tiles could make for nice space hulk vibes.
Grumpy Gnome wrote: Mrs. GG and I used Dwarven Forge for our cavern needs. We tried the Archon D&L Dwarven Mines set and it just did not do it for us. So we did not expect this campaign to be for us as well. However, I have to admit Archon has me interested in at least considering it now. That surprises me.
I skipped the DM set because it looked more like a Disneyland darkride than mines. However, I've seen some very good use of the floors for beaches, marshes, and other land terrain with water. Still not worth buying the entire set.
IMO, The Caves *are* greatly improved, so I'll be buying something!
Some of the marginal costs...
* 1.00000 EUR = 1.07545 USD
I doubt that you'd equate a Core with a SG with a SSG, but each whatever is €48 based on Surveyor.
Each pledge level except King adds one whatever.
Only based on this, the Dwarven Sapper and King are where you're "saving" money, so if you're getting a Prospector, might as well get a Sapper?
Of course, some whatever have more stuff than others.
* Surveyor: €48 x 2 = €92
* Miner: €48 x 3 = €144 vs €140
* Prospector: €48 x 4 = €192 vs €180
* Dwarven Sapper: €48 x 5 = €240 vs €214
* King of the Mountain: €48 x 7 = €336 vs €294
The SSG's are actually different "encounter sets" at 3 sets per SSG. So you could get multiple SSG's without duplicates.
Anyway, this post is just for fun (yes, I think you have to disclaim that sort of thing on the internet) and we won't know how much actual stuff you'll get until the campaign.
I'll probably just get a Miner, since the standard Caves will be used the most. Other cores still look good!
Sticker price is high, but I think they said the packs would be larger, too. I have a truckload of the dungeons and sewers and they're great stuff, will probably pledge here too.
The one worry is that the inflexible numbers of core vs stretch goal vs super stretch goal "slots" might lead to not being able to get enough of something specific you want.
- Deuslair shipping starts on the 16th - 1 damaged tool needs fixing
- pdf Deuslair book due next week once they figure out how to issue it to backers only.
- Caves - US taxes (where applicable) not included in prices and will be collected at checkout/PM - Airship kit has 2 middle sections (in 4 parts) on the sprue - previous examples in the KS update showed 3 while the box art has 1 and it's caused confusion.
- Caves Prepaints - injection points only on bottom of pieces to avoid clipping points on visible details. Old sets aren't done that way as they are already tooled but base sprue colour should hide it somewhat.
- Prepaint colours still WIP. Only 1 colour design per set for now as adding alternates gets too unwieldy.
- Legacy prepaints - Torture Chamber, Hall of Heroes, Wooden Cottage, Tudor Mansion, Fantasy Core.
- Use superglue on prepaints as plastic glue won't work with the paint layer.
- Considering bigger pledge for "all in" (over King of the Mountain)
- SSGs theme sets available as adds on as well.
- Stretch pay up to 6 instalments but sounds like you can pick less than 6.
- Prepaint minis might start with the dragons to see how that works out.
- Retail March - Entrances, Land of the Giants, Lava, Under City Hideout, Ygrid, Urban Bases
- MoTU wave 7 - 15th March release date
- Q2 Gamefound for MoTU RoW rerelease will include new stuff. Crowdfunding is a requirement of the new deal with Mattel.
- pics added for prepaints but you're better off watching the stream to actually see them properly the pictures wash out the details.
I thought for sure that I would be in for a Demonic Cave (because.. Diablo) but holy cow that Rocky Cave set looks amazing! It really makes me wish my Abomination Vault and Dwarven Mine sets had some rounded corners like that!
Belly of the Beast is the most interesting for me. Also interested in prepainted, but need to see if it's going to be all blood and guts or if it’s compatible with Nurgle
So if one wants only a single box of a single theme like Rocky Caves then a Miner pledge would be the best? Do I get it right? Also any differences wheter it is KS or Gamefound?
Shadow Walker wrote: So if one wants only a single box of a single theme like Rocky Caves then a Miner pledge would be the best? Do I get it right? Also any differences wheter it is KS or Gamefound?
Yeah Miner is the way to go assuming you want the 3 sub themes from the SSG as well. Gamefound is similar to KS and pledges are only collected on successful funding at the end of the campaign but being newer has a few extra features like stretch pay which allows you to pay in instalments Archon has set the minimum spend for stretch pay to €92 and it’s collected over 6 months. Looking at other GF I don’t think you can vary the length yourself so you either pay €140 for Miner once the GF ends successfully or €23.30 for 6 months starting on the day the campaign ends.
Shadow Walker wrote: So if one wants only a single box of a single theme like Rocky Caves then a Miner pledge would be the best? Do I get it right? Also any differences wheter it is KS or Gamefound?
Yeah Miner is the way to go assuming you want the 3 sub themes from the SSG as well. Gamefound is similar to KS and pledges are only collected on successful funding at the end of the campaign but being newer has a few extra features like stretch pay which allows you to pay in instalments Archon has set the minimum spend for stretch pay to €92 and it’s collected over 6 months. Looking at other GF I don’t think you can vary the length yourself so you either pay €140 for Miner once the GF ends successfully or €23.30 for 6 months starting on the day the campaign ends.
> So if one wants only a single box of a single theme like Rocky Caves then a Miner pledge would be the best? Do I get it right? Also any differences wheter it is KS or Gamefound?
fyi, If you only want a single item in a crowdfunding project, make sure you check shipping prices first. Can't tell you how many times I've seen a backer complain about shipping when it's one item. See if you can pledge $1 and increase it in the PM. For Archon, I'm sure you can get a core set from the OLGS, without shipping costs. OTOH, If you want the SG and SSG (three subthemes of your choice), never mind what I said.
Just a quick note I saw on Deuslair shipping only the Of Sea and Thunder Add On has been produced (in addition to the Core, SG and SSG) the other 3 are lined up for production but if your order has them expect shipping to take on the longer end of their estimates.
ced1106 wrote: @Szymon_Archon: I'd like some one-hex flames that could look like a wall of fire when placed next to each other.
Spell/Environmental effects would be nice, although I don't think we have the space for it in this campaign... I think our next campaign should allow for more stuff like that.
They must have increased the size of the legacy sets to be charging $85-90 for them. The old sets were $27. Guessing they doubled or tripled the number of tiles to make them on par with the starter? Hopefully they added more solid walls. It's hard to build a structure when every wall has a window.
We still really need diagonal and curved walls for the fantasy themes.
lord_blackfang wrote: Judging from the one prepainted set they have on retail, it's double the old Rooms.
We're still looking at whether we want to increase the size of the Legacy sets or keep them the same size as the ones in retail, we'll update the page once we have more info
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Got most of my Deuslair stuff yesterday (sadly missing a couple of boxes which i've reached out to Archon for) and it's generally looking good
Casting and sprue design continues to improve, the multipose options for some of the minis is also great (take that GW, it's NOT yesterdays fashion)
now what do i want to build first, a sky ship or a giant turtle?
Please post here pics of the built minis from your pledge (like all of them)
There’s been a few changes and new reveals over the last few days.
- SSG are gone all subthemes available as part of the pledge options
- Dwarven Warrior level added $249 - 2 Core, 6 Subthemes, 1SG
- Add ons have more minis but have gone up to $39
Spoiler:
- all prices are ex VAT so expect to pay 20 - 25% extra depending on your local rate.
- Minotaur revealed
- Evil Eye sub theme render added
- themed edge clips added
- SG add on possibly in PM - they need to see how many sprues it contains in order to price it.
- 80 to 90 SG designed
- PM 3 months after campaign ends. Shipping approx 8 to 9 months.
- Core set sprues should be done by campaigns end - might be available for rapid shipping in PM.
- Deuslair minis available as an add on.
- Curved walls are cast in 2 parts.
- SSG are gone (as subthemes are now part of the pledges) but unused former SSGs might come back depending on funding. Sounds like the Cockatrice might be coming back again.
- Skeletons and Demons are on separate sprues. Boss on it's own sprue.
- Goblins and Spiders might be on separate sprues as well. Goblin King and Spider Boss share a sprue.
- As minions have their own sprues they may be available separately at some point.
- They've mentioned being more mindful of what goes on sprues to avoid the random mix from past kits and to help with retail sets.
- Edges have 45 degree ends so they can be joined up at 90 degree angles. Can be used to make pits, chasms etc.
- Stretch pay can only be used once per campaign - either for the campaign or in the PM. You can't use stretch pay for the campaign and then again for extras added in the PM. So you either use stretch pay for the campaign pledge and any extras added in the PM have to be paid in full or you pay in full for the campaign pledge and then use stretch pay for the PM. Apparently you can pay off stretch pay early but that still won't allow you to use it more than once for a campaign if for example you use it for the campaign and pay it off before the PM opens.
Shadow Walker wrote: @Szymon_Archon - is minotaur mono option or multiple options miniature, for example right hand weapon or both bare hands?
The minotaur is planned to be mono pose, there likely won't be enough space on the sprue otherwise.
Automatically Appended Next Post: When it comes to the miniature add-ons, there's been some talk about their overall cost and we're looking at adding more to them. You can expect to see more updates to the page very soon
Confirmation that the prepainted legacy add ons are 11 sprues each (9 walls/floors 2 connectors - fantasy core might differ a little) for $55 (which is around €63 with 20% VAT added). Dwarven mine prepainted retail is €79 for 6 wall/floor sprues for comparison.
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and the minion/boss add ons got a bit of a size bump again
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oh and my Deuslair pledge has shipped so it looks like the White Sands add on has been produced. Should get a good look at the airship before deciding if I want more (I know I do but...) going to do some Ironjawz Skybasha's scrap-hulks just cause!
lord_blackfang wrote: $55 for three Rooms worth, prepainted, is pretty nuts. I now regret having so much already.
Ditto...looks like I'm going to be selling all of my unopened boxes of D&L unpainted terrain and getting a ton of the prepaints. My plan is to use these for Descent 1st edition games.
lord_blackfang wrote: $55 for three Rooms worth, prepainted, is pretty nuts. I now regret having so much already.
I guess there is no tooling costs just production and paint so they can go a bit larger/cheaper.
Jarek just confirmed the legacy prepaints will only be available in this campaign.
- Mini add ons are 3 sprues per set.
- New prepaints will probably have 2 colour options available
- everyone will get the Caves RPG supplement as a pdf
Jarek just confirmed the legacy prepaints will only be available in this campaign.
Kind of a puzzling choice, and reduces my interest. If I got sets later it would be harder to match the pre-paint than my own work. I wonder if they are retooling the legacy sets? They certainly need more solid walls for some of them (tudor/castle, etc).
Jarek just confirmed the legacy prepaints will only be available in this campaign.
Kind of a puzzling choice, and reduces my interest. If I got sets later it would be harder to match the pre-paint than my own work. I wonder if they are retooling the legacy sets? They certainly need more solid walls for some of them (tudor/castle, etc).
I think it could be just a case of capacity and returns on expected sales. They probably figure the majority of those who want legacy sets have them already (and are therefore unlikely to buy more, even if prepainted). The orders for the legacy sets that they get now keeps the painting machines busy while the tooling / casting for the caves gets done, then they get busy with the caves (for both backers and retail).
Just like to point out the Campaign is now under way, and they've gone through the first few stretch goals already. (Predominantly adding in scatter type bits and a couple dwarves.)
Hmmm not thrilled about the new sets being mostly half height walls.
I'm thinking two Surveyors might be optimal for me, essentially trading 3 subthemes for a second copy of stretch goals, and the prepainting is 40$ cheaper (cause less dungeons)
Also gonna need probably two airships and the abomination mini pack.
I'll admit I'm puzzled by it. Rather than bridges it just needed some props. I wonder if it was because there are also alot of people asking for more bridges. Kill two birds with one stone attempt, but I don't think it really worked. I'm currently in for King of the Mountain with two spider lairs, but we'll see by the end if I stick with both of them.
That said, one advantage of getting it unpainted is all be doing all the base rock the same, so I can make a bigger goblin or spider lair by just adding in some normal cave bits.
fwiw, You can just make your own spider lair from the D&L IV spiders and webbed items in their SG and Creatures packs -- and dryer sheets!
Silk and Steel has spiders.
Malevolent, btw, looks good for sf fantasy, such as Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, as well as post-apoc mutant stuffs, such as Osprey's the Doomed.
Picking up goblin lair, ritual, and the set with the prisoners, so I'll just go buy some sheets.
lord_blackfang wrote: So a model the shape and size of a $160 Be'lakor free with a $99 pledge, hmmm.
Yep, and that’s what I’ll count him as, plus he’s not 1 per backer so each SG set gets one. I just hope they stop upscaling it soon, Be’lakor is 170mm so that or 180 would be fine.
Deuslair pledge arrived this morning, and I am seriously impressed by the quality and detail of the models!
The crispness they are able to render the face of a baby Owlbear with, down to the strip of bleeding meat in its little beak...I am really reassured about Archon's ability to do the 10mm scaled stuff for Mantic's Warpath, just as much as their ability to do massive dragons, demons and turtles.
In general, I am also incredibly impressed by the Deuslair project as a whole - an entire world, all the concept art and sourcebooks and stats and campaign, and miniatures for every single creature you might conceivably face. Feels like getting two years worth of GW releases in one go! I haven't seen anything like it in 12 years of Kickstarters, and it feels like it could genuinely take multiple hobby years to assemble and properly paint everything.
lord_blackfang wrote: So a model the shape and size of a $160 Be'lakor free with a $99 pledge, hmmm.
Yep, and that’s what I’ll count him as, plus he’s not 1 per backer so each SG set gets one. I just hope they stop upscaling it soon, Be’lakor is 170mm so that or 180 would be fine.
On this, he will be 1PB and we've updated his description on the Gamefound page to mention it.
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Shadow Walker wrote: @Szymon_Archon - is it still possible to have a demon lord with an alternative option for a left hand, like open one with just claws?
We'll see if there's any additional space on the sprue and we'll add additional parts accordingly, although it's not something I can guarantee at this point in time.
The community goal has been reached and 1 of the Ettins will be included - Gervase (on the left) is currently winning the poll with 64%
Voted for Gervase as he's designed similar to Pepe the Giant, but wouldn't mind either, Gervase with the club and cyclops skull base from Protase would be a good mix.
Just noticed that the Cave core set has "Rocky Hills" which I hope are freestanding, so can be plonked in the middle of your generic wargame mat, and used as generic hills.
More versatile than the Elven Woods rocks, which were a PITA to paint all those frickin' leaves on.
I'm assuming the walls have pegs on them, which sorta keep me from using them as unnecessary boardgame bling.as freestanding walls. I have some WizKids prepaints, and their walls stand up by themselves.
In one of the live streams they show how hills/enclosures very lightly clip into tile floors using shallow pegs, so you'd need to trim those. I think the curved walls would also be free standing if you trimmed the pegs, and the normal walls would only need a thin base added!
Yea hills lock into 6 floor holes, but you can just snip the pegs with a flush cutter and you're good to go. I'm campaigning for them to put just the hill sprue as an addon for that reason. They are quite small, mind you.
Just got Deuslair and *geez* there's a ton of plastic in even the 189 pledge level. That's only 300 miniatures plus ten huge models.
Archon should have teamed up with Ganesha Games (Andreas is easy to work with) for a Song of Blades and Heroes and Sellswords and Spellcasters ruleset, instead of going RPG!
lord_blackfang wrote: Yea hills lock into 6 floor holes, but you can just snip the pegs with a flush cutter and you're good to go. I'm campaigning for them to put just the hill sprue as an addon for that reason. They are quite small, mind you.
From watching the video, it doesn't look like full size pegs like under the walls, but rather little nubs ~2mm. When it's sitting flat on the table it doesn't look out of place.
Yeaaa I think a second set of stretch goals is gonna be better value than 3 subthemes. Especially as none of the subthemes look better than the core sets...
I actually like it as something which can fit inside a dungeon, and serve as a reasonably compact accessory rather than being a massive building kit in its own right! Then again, people complained about the airship and they made that massive, so...
I am also enjoying that so many of the stretch goals benefit from having multiplies, and agree that multiple stretch goal sets give so many options.
Is Archon more known for figs or terrain now in the gaming community? No shame with either but I'm just curious as He-Man is the only figure based property that I can recall coming from them as a mostly passive outside observer. I only own a couple of their figs mainly from the Starfinder line that to my knowledge hasn't been updated for a while.
warboss wrote: Is Archon more known for figs or terrain now in the gaming community? No shame with either but I'm just curious as He-Man is the only figure based property that I can recall coming from them as a mostly passive outside observer. I only own a couple of their figs mainly from the Starfinder line that to my knowledge hasn't been updated for a while.
It depends on who you ask. If you're looking at games that we make minis for, then we're known for minis. If you're looking only at our D&L campaigns, then it'd probably be terrain, but there's still a decent chunk of minis in there, especially in our last campaign (D&L V, over 350 new minis iirc).
Interesting they only planned to $1.5m and they didn't want to keep stretching the SG totals beyond around $30k each so that explains the doubling up on some prior SGs - they had pretty much run out of new SG to add.
DaveC wrote: Interesting they only planned to $1.5m and they didn't want to keep stretching the SG totals beyond around $30k each so that explains the doubling up on some prior SGs - they had pretty much run out of new SG to add.
I honestly prefer this in general for certain items you want a lot of.
I do think they really screwed over Belly of the Beast as a theme. There should have been tumors, acid squirting growths, membrane doors, biomechanical fixtures, parasites to stick in the walls, etc. We got like 3 pieces total.This was a fantastic campaign otherwise, super pumped to see the pre-painted options. I'm in for a miner and king of the mountain, may add a bit more in the pledge manager.
DaveC wrote: Interesting they only planned to $1.5m and they didn't want to keep stretching the SG totals beyond around $30k each so that explains the doubling up on some prior SGs - they had pretty much run out of new SG to add.
I honestly prefer this in general for certain items you want a lot of.
I do think they really screwed over Belly of the Beast as a theme. There should have been tumors, acid squirting growths, membrane doors, biomechanical fixtures, parasites to stick in the walls, etc. We got like 3 pieces total.
Yes, I won't be getting it as a core set (though I'm in for Maw and Carnage, but not bothered about needing much in the way of props, as I plan on the subthemes essentially being props themselves.) That said, I think more in the way of 'fungal' props (and not just more mushrooms, but like the fungal arch) could have pulled double duty, fungal in normal caves, fleshy veins BotB.
Man the prismacast stuff is so neat, I wish I had an actual reason to get into this stuff. I've been wanting to run stonehell for instance... but that'd be online anyway. I could run something in person but I get way too in my own head about that kinda thing.
> Man the prismacast stuff is so neat, I wish I had an actual reason to get into this stuff.
I play solo miniature games, and the caves look like something I can plonk onto the table, even if outside.
$80 to paint roughly five sets is still money, but I guess it gets the terrain faster to the table.
Sorta wish that they had a separate campaign six months apart for a Prismacast crowdfunding. I'll be bumping up my unpainted pledge to a painted on in the PM as it is.
> I do think they really screwed over Belly of the Beast as a theme.
Yep. GF has you choose which sets you want, and maybe this data was available to creators, so creators would know which sets were in high demand, so they knew which direction to go with the SG's. Not only was Rocky most popular, but the bits sorta overlap with Demonic. BoB is so niche, though, that we're lucky it's offered at all. :/
- Post campaign survey due next week
- A few new renders see below.
- Breakdown of what themes people pledged for - painted/unpainted is about an equal split with painted being a little ahead.
- Rocky Cave is by far the most popular with BotB and it's subthemes being only a quarter of the Rocky Caves numbers. I know people complained about the lack of BotB SG but the numbers back up it's lack of popularity. Spiders nest is the most popular subtheme!
- BotB is tooled 2 sprues shown off details look good
I wonder if the Spiders Nest popularity was down to the bridges since they help "pad out" your core sets on the tabletop to create multiple, smaller caves that still take up most of a 3x3 table. If so, they might see those numbers change in the face of so many stone bridge pieces added to the stretch goals.
"I know people complained about the lack of BotB SG but the numbers back up it's lack of popularity."
Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy really. They didn't make any stuff for it, and it's a theme where regular chests and tables look out of place. So now I'm left with empty rooms with no matching scatter.
It was always going to be niche, but the complete lack of any support hurt it. Some cool stuff that would work for tyranid fans might have pumped the numbers a bit.
Siygess wrote: I wonder if the Spiders Nest popularity was down to the bridges since they help "pad out" your core sets on the tabletop to create multiple, smaller caves that still take up most of a 3x3 table. If so, they might see those numbers change in the face of so many stone bridge pieces added to the stretch goals.
I dunno the bridges are the only bits of spider lair I hate but the cobwebbed tiles are fantastic and among the best designs to blend naturally into the base theme.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: "I know people complained about the lack of BotB SG but the numbers back up it's lack of popularity."
Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy really. They didn't make any stuff for it, and it's a theme where regular chests and tables look out of place. So now I'm left with empty rooms with no matching scatter.
It was always going to be niche, but the complete lack of any support hurt it. Some cool stuff that would work for tyranid fans might have pumped the numbers a bit.
What hurt it for me was what seemed like confusion over what it wanted to be. The text (and name) described it as the Belly of the Beast but there sure seemed like a lot of rock in the beasts belly. I think if the core set was more expressly 'fleshy' then perhaps it would have performed better. For instance I'm in for the Maw and Carnage track sub themes, but haven't taken the core BotB set. That's because but those sub themes are distinctly 'flesh'.
I do think they should have leaned a bit more into the 'fungal' accessories like the arch, as those could be painted as flesh to go with the BotB theme if you wanted that, or as fungus for the rocky caves.
Belly also suffered from little exposure, they had no prismacast samples of it, etc. and its premier room was just a corridor with a non traverseble large intestine taking up half the floor space. I honestly might get a Belly core once samples are up, the few hand painted panels they showed were wicked.
Here’s some BotB pics from the unpainted sprue. It’s 1 of my 3 choices along with the maw as I can see it being used as a demon world terrain and gives me very Doom Eternal Super Gore Nest vibes.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: "I know people complained about the lack of BotB SG but the numbers back up it's lack of popularity."
Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy really. They didn't make any stuff for it, and it's a theme where regular chests and tables look out of place. So now I'm left with empty rooms with no matching scatter.
It was always going to be niche, but the complete lack of any support hurt it. Some cool stuff that would work for tyranid fans might have pumped the numbers a bit.
Not quite, the sales of all of the sets perfectly line up with the survey we did before the campaign launched. Demonic Caves has 50% of the popularity of the Rocky Caves, while BotB has 25% of the popularity of the Rocky Caves. According to what I've been told, having a more niche set is fine if those people wouldn't back otherwise.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: "I know people complained about the lack of BotB SG but the numbers back up it's lack of popularity."
Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy really. They didn't make any stuff for it, and it's a theme where regular chests and tables look out of place. So now I'm left with empty rooms with no matching scatter.
It was always going to be niche, but the complete lack of any support hurt it. Some cool stuff that would work for tyranid fans might have pumped the numbers a bit.
Not quite, the sales of all of the sets perfectly line up with the survey we did before the campaign launched. Demonic Caves has 50% of the popularity of the Rocky Caves, while BotB has 25% of the popularity of the Rocky Caves. According to what I've been told, having a more niche set is fine if those people wouldn't back otherwise.
Thanks for the info. I am grateful to get a weird option that otherwise probably wouldn't have been commercially viable. Seeing the pre-paints also really sold me on going all in on pre-painted, as it looked like it would be more time consuming than normal caves.
Maybe some bio-mechanical or gooey stuff can sneak into later campaigns.
Shadow Walker wrote: @Szymon_Archon - will ettin have some options, like different weapons (in right hand too), both hands bare etc.?
According to what I've been told he'll have different assembly options, which includes the possibility of assembling him with 1 head. As for additional weapons, I believe that's something that's still up for discussion although I don't see why we wouldn't add some optional parts like that
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lord_blackfang wrote: They got the USA, Canada, Australia... license but I suspect it still won't be accessible to the more obscure parts of Europe.
I remember someone being angry that we ship to the Vatican but not Eastern Europe... As if the Pope is gonna play MOTU: Battleground
Shadow Walker wrote: @Szymon_Archon - will ettin have some options, like different weapons (in right hand too), both hands bare etc.?
According to what I've been told he'll have different assembly options, which includes the possibility of assembling him with 1 head. As for additional weapons, I believe that's something that's still up for discussion although I don't see why we wouldn't add some optional parts like that
One head means he would double as ''normal'' giant, which is awesome, and a proper step from the Pepe. Additional hand options so he is not exclusively left handed like Pepe would be great. Basically make him as versatile as GW Mancrusher, and he will sell like a hot cake.
So D&L7 will be traditional D&D and other generic fantasy miniatures?
Here's my suggestion list:
* Enough miniatures for the D&D starter sets, Pathfinder starter sets, and their most popular modules. Eventually release retail sets that a hobby gamer can "one stop shop" buy instead of the usual hunting down of mini's. Maybe include any difficult-to-find terrain for the modules (eg. I think the Pathfinder Beginner Box adventure has a balance scale).
* PC's with different bits. Shouldn't be difficult for Archon. Of course, what would be a challenge would be magnets.
* Partner with various companies with popular rulesets but no extensive miniature lines (eg. Song of Blades and Heroes, Five Leagues from the Borderlands) to release starter sets for their games.
* Add "sell by the sprue" to Archon's selling model. This also means at least some sprues need to be themed with similar models (eg. wolves, goblins, orcs) rather than the "what fits on the sprue" approach Archon has for several of its sets. This would open up Archon more for hobby gamers who wish to create armies for various games (eg. Kings of War). Review army lists of various army games before planning the sprue (eg. how many of which models are in a typical regimen).
* Personally, although it's outside the scope of this campaign, I'd like 3D terrain bits for Gloomhaven, one of the most popular boardgame dungeoncrawlers. These pieces would be 1" or 2" in length, and require a flat top so other mini's can be placed on top of them (eg. flying units flying over terrain).
It appears I will be taking a bit more of an active role in this campaign (at least from what I've seen so far, but we haven't begun official work on it yet), but these are all things that I have personally been wanting for some time.
More specifically:
- PC's of various races with multiparts. They'll be split on the sprue. During the campaign you'll get a copy of the entire sprue, but in retail the sprues will be split in 4/6 parts so we're able to sell 1 individual miniature.
- Most definitely selling by the sprue. Each sprue must have a concrete theme that can be included in the set it's being sold in for the campaign, but also has the possibility of being taken out and added to a different set.
- I want "Encounter Packs" to be a thing - a set of miniatures that also includes some scatter terrain, and an optional paper mat depending on the set. The RPG supplement will contain suggestions on how to assemble the minis and how to implement it into your game.
- Attracting wargamers would be great, and that's what I would be aiming for with multipart minis. I want them to be similar to the ones from Oathmark/Frostgrave in terms of choice, but I really think that we can do an even better job. Of course, not every set will be multipart, as dynamic and interesting poses are good for more important looking characters.
I know that it's probably mostly Wargamers here, but I would like the miniature sets to include scatter terrain that would be relevant to that particular miniature set. What does everyone here feel about that?
Szymon_Archon wrote: I know that it's probably mostly Wargamers here, but I would like the miniature sets to include scatter terrain that would be relevant to that particular miniature set. What does everyone here feel about that?
Wargamers need terrain too Also wargames do not mean mass battles exclusively so other wargames would require some scatter terrain like bushes, fences, trunks etc. Many here play some mix of wargame and RPG like Rangers of Shadow Deep etc., which would benefit from some nice scatter terrain packs.
Sure, I was just curious because depending on the system you're using, you won't need the scatter terrain and I'm trying to judge how many are for or against. Sorry if the stuff I'm saying seems obvious, I really want to make sure that I'm hitting all the points of what people are looking for the most, with concrete stats so I'm not just giving my feelings (even though I think I'm correct :p ).
Szymon_Archon wrote: It appears I will be taking a bit more of an active role in this campaign (at least from what I've seen so far, but we haven't begun official work on it yet), but these are all things that I have personally been wanting for some time.
More specifically:
- PC's of various races with multiparts. They'll be split on the sprue. During the campaign you'll get a copy of the entire sprue, but in retail the sprues will be split in 4/6 parts so we're able to sell 1 individual miniature.
- Most definitely selling by the sprue. Each sprue must have a concrete theme that can be included in the set it's being sold in for the campaign, but also has the possibility of being taken out and added to a different set.
- I want "Encounter Packs" to be a thing - a set of miniatures that also includes some scatter terrain, and an optional paper mat depending on the set. The RPG supplement will contain suggestions on how to assemble the minis and how to implement it into your game.
- Attracting wargamers would be great, and that's what I would be aiming for with multipart minis. I want them to be similar to the ones from Oathmark/Frostgrave in terms of choice, but I really think that we can do an even better job. Of course, not every set will be multipart, as dynamic and interesting poses are good for more important looking characters.
All of these sound great to me! Especially the encounter packs; themed terrain & complementing models are exactly what I'm looking for.
Szymon_Archon wrote: I know that it's probably mostly Wargamers here, but I would like the miniature sets to include scatter terrain that would be relevant to that particular miniature set. What does everyone here feel about that?
Solid for D&D unique sprue enemy packs, less solid for Frostgrave regiment type boxes where you might get 4 copies of a sprue.
If you include options for enemies then please remember that they should be available to all minis in the kit = if goblins have options for bows or spears then include enough of them to arm the entire squad in either option.
Szymon_Archon wrote: I know that it's probably mostly Wargamers here, but I would like the miniature sets to include scatter terrain that would be relevant to that particular miniature set. What does everyone here feel about that?
Wargamers need terrain too Also wargames do not mean mass battles exclusively so other wargames would require some scatter terrain like bushes, fences, trunks etc. Many here play some mix of wargame and RPG like Rangers of Shadow Deep etc., which would benefit from some nice scatter terrain packs.
Wargamers do, but many dungeon masters don't. Lots run on wet erase mats, so I think a tighter focus on just minis would go over better. More people want orcs than want orcs and terrain.
Szymon_Archon wrote: I know that it's probably mostly Wargamers here, but I would like the miniature sets to include scatter terrain that would be relevant to that particular miniature set. What does everyone here feel about that?
Wargamers need terrain too Also wargames do not mean mass battles exclusively so other wargames would require some scatter terrain like bushes, fences, trunks etc. Many here play some mix of wargame and RPG like Rangers of Shadow Deep etc., which would benefit from some nice scatter terrain packs.
Wargamers do, but many dungeon masters don't. Lots run on wet erase mats, so I think a tighter focus on just minis would go over better. More people want orcs than want orcs and terrain.
To be fair, they've made a pretty good go of selling terrain for RPGs, so there must be enough DMs out there that don't use wet erase mats.
Personally a second take on the Encounters campaign, but with more focus on miniatures is what I'd like to see. So sets similar to the Elven Wood / Swamps of Doom, with a few sprues less of terrain, but miniature packs to match the theme. So taking the Elven Wood example, say only four trees, one of the hill sprue, the scatter terrain (campsite) sprue. And then a set of 4-6 PCs, and 2-3 options for baddies. Wolves, bandits, Gnolls, stc. Perhaps a boss (say troll or ogre) as well.
Then have a multitude say (8 - 10) of sets, where the terrain elements can be reused across multiple sets but in differing amounts (for example, one more focusing on hills / rocks / ruins, perhaps only a single tree) with different PCs / baddies / bosses in each one.
That said, I think it would be best to keep the terrain and minis on separate sprues as it could make mini only pledges possible, and give more options when releasing sets for retail.
Dawnbringer wrote: That said, I think it would be best to keep the terrain and minis on separate sprues as it could make mini only pledges possible, and give more options when releasing sets for retail.
Yep, that's exactly what I was thinking. I would like them to be on separate sprues and while they'll be together in one set during the campaign, they should be available separately in retail.
Szymon_Archon wrote: It appears I will be taking a bit more of an active role in this campaign (at least from what I've seen so far, but we haven't begun official work on it yet), but these are all things that I have personally been wanting for some time.
- Attracting wargamers would be great, and that's what I would be aiming for with multipart minis. I want them to be similar to the ones from Oathmark/Frostgrave in terms of choice, but I really think that we can do an even better job. Of course, not every set will be multipart, as dynamic and interesting poses are good for more important looking characters.
Have a look at Northstar, Fireforge and Wargames Atlantic, those are probably the best current plastic producers for fantasy wargaming of the top of my head (Mantic is still a bit wonky at times, though they have some great options, too). Also read what's being criticized about some of their kits.
And watch what they don't have.
From your encounters? I'd like a full Ants set.
And Mosquitos.
And Mushroom people.
What we don't need is another set of generic medieval knights on foot if you ask me...
I think a mix of generic and more unique sculpts would be the idea. I definitely want us to revisit the "Fluffy Dummy" miniature from Encounters, but there are just so many generic miniatures that we haven't done ourselves yet.
Those ruins shown on the battlemat look great. Not enough to pledge as I do not care about He-man but maybe they will appear as separate item in the future?
Sasorijap wrote: They are already available if you live in the EU. Most of the crowdfounding is about bringing the game to new regions (+ some new releases).
I'm pretty sure Shadow Walker meant hopefully the ruins would be available independently of the rest of the game.
Sasorijap wrote: They are already available if you live in the EU. Most of the crowdfounding is about bringing the game to new regions (+ some new releases).
I'm pretty sure Shadow Walker meant hopefully the ruins would be available independently of the rest of the game.
Do you know how well the Reaper encounter sets and Steamforged Epic (?) encounter sets have been selling? The Reaper ones are more for dioramas, while Epic is for RPG's. Steamforge's sets are too expensive, imo. I have enough terrain to paint (thanks, Archon so I didn't pick up any Reaper encounter sets in their last KS.
If the Encounter Packs coincidentally (: can be used in the D&D starter set adventures and Pathfinder Beginner Box adventure, that *might* increase sales...
lord_blackfang wrote: Yea they just had a 2 million kickstarter for plastic caves, I don't think finding customers for terrain is gonna be an issue.
And I backed it for two sets. And was annoyed at the dwarf minis taking up stretch goal slots that could have been used for more general use stuff or fleshing out other options.
Id rather the product do one thing well than include stuff I don't necessarily want. I dont want t have to buy orcs to get stalagmites or stalagmites to get orcs.
Szymon_Archon wrote: It appears I will be taking a bit more of an active role in this campaign (at least from what I've seen so far, but we haven't begun official work on it yet), but these are all things that I have personally been wanting for some time.
- Attracting wargamers would be great, and that's what I would be aiming for with multipart minis. I want them to be similar to the ones from Oathmark/Frostgrave in terms of choice, but I really think that we can do an even better job. Of course, not every set will be multipart, as dynamic and interesting poses are good for more important looking characters.
Have a look at Northstar, Fireforge and Wargames Atlantic, those are probably the best current plastic producers for fantasy wargaming of the top of my head (Mantic is still a bit wonky at times, though they have some great options, too). Also read what's being criticized about some of their kits.
And watch what they don't have.
From your encounters? I'd like a full Ants set.
And Mosquitos.
And Mushroom people.
What we don't need is another set of generic medieval knights on foot if you ask me...
Bossk_Hogg wrote:
lord_blackfang wrote: Yea they just had a 2 million kickstarter for plastic caves, I don't think finding customers for terrain is gonna be an issue.
And I backed it for two sets. And was annoyed at the dwarf minis taking up stretch goal slots that could have been used for more general use stuff or fleshing out other options.
Id rather the product do one thing well than include stuff I don't necessarily want. I dont want t have to buy orcs to get stalagmites or stalagmites to get orcs.
What we don't need is another set of generic medieval knights on foot if you ask me...
I kinda both agree and disagree here. Yes, we do not need another set that is Frostgrave tiny scale and has integral bases but we need properly scaled (which for me means Mantic or Fireforge Fantasy scale), and versatile (full of options, both for armour and weapons) knight kit that is also free from integral abominations plague.
I think there is a void in the model needs of wargames vs RPG's.
The scenario of wargames is a big field/a lot of table, even in many skirmish games. Generally wargames have scenery in the playfield to break LOS for entire units. Starter sets are usually a bit thin on scenery so for newer wargames they are looking to pad this out (captive market). More experienced wargamers are looking for a way to diversify thier existing scenery and old hands like me just want to buy a field in one go (thank you Caves!).
RPG players are creating sets, theatre stages for encounters. They don't need the tabletop scale nor scenery big enough to hide a whole unit of space marines behind. On the other hand encircling the play area in an RPG sets the scene and keeps players from wondering off, a situation wargames don't suffer from. I mean, this is one reason for original DnD is so "dungeons". You see this in so many videogames as well, keep players on the path.
Lastly, and a bit more nuanced. I'm *used* to buying scenery and models seperately except for starter sets. With GW always nurfing and re-balancing to drive sales I have become accustomed to buying units to address this. With a great many on here being GW customers I dare say I'm not alone. For scenery I look to things like kickstarter to fill battlefields from Necromunda to Apocalypse games. An encounter set just doesn't have the scale I'm looking for.
Having a well priced box that serves all is a worthy goal especially in the wilds of retail. But I can see it being more of a hinderance to sales to wargamers because it has a high probability of serving nobody.
If (hypothetically) the only way to get that desert world scenery is in a bundle with a tyranid force. Well, I don't want tyranids and I sure wouldn't want that mix of units if I did. Or, I want those tyranids but I have all the desert I need, I want jungle. For wargamers bundles have 2 reasons not to buy.
Szymon_Archon wrote:I know that it's probably mostly Wargamers here, but I would like the miniature sets to include scatter terrain that would be relevant to that particular miniature set. What does everyone here feel about that?
It's something I really like. I generally am a big fan of scatter terrain, both for roleplaying and for wargames. They can add a lot to the modular terrain that I like to use. That said, one thing I dislike is sprue space being taken up by fancy bases because I rebase everything onto my own basing system (1.2 mm thick steel washers) so more detailed bases tend to be a pain to remove.
Shadow Walker wrote:If you include options for enemies then please remember that they should be available to all minis in the kit = if goblins have options for bows or spears then include enough of them to arm the entire squad in either option.
For me, that depends. For the 'big' options like ranged or melee, yes. But I would rather have more interesting things than swords, maces, axes, spears, halberds, bows, and crossbows taking up a whole set.
Szymon_Archon wrote: I know that it's probably mostly Wargamers here, but I would like the miniature sets to include scatter terrain that would be relevant to that particular miniature set. What does everyone here feel about that?
Wargamers need terrain too Also wargames do not mean mass battles exclusively so other wargames would require some scatter terrain like bushes, fences, trunks etc. Many here play some mix of wargame and RPG like Rangers of Shadow Deep etc., which would benefit from some nice scatter terrain packs.
Wargamers do, but many dungeon masters don't. Lots run on wet erase mats, so I think a tighter focus on just minis would go over better. More people want orcs than want orcs and terrain.
I personally am a wargamer who likes having some scatter around as well. Of course, I tend to place them relatively close to the big pieces for regiment-based games, but otherwise they add a lot of character to a table. I also don't use mats at all, so I tend to see those as a bit of a negative because they add to the cost without bringing anything.
Szymon_Archon wrote:I think a mix of generic and more unique sculpts would be the idea. I definitely want us to revisit the "Fluffy Dummy" miniature from Encounters, but there are just so many generic miniatures that we haven't done ourselves yet.
Generic sculpts can always find a use. You don't want to be the niche company because that leads beginners to other companies and lets them settle in there. At the same time, the generics should also offer something that makes them stand out from all the others. One big advantage that Archon has over many companies in the RPG space is that you guys are working with HIPS, which means that you can offer options. Especially for things like standard adventurers and town guards that means that you can settle on a design language and make use of interchangeable components like weapons and accessories.
What we don't need is another set of generic medieval knights on foot if you ask me...
I kinda both agree and disagree here. Yes, we do not need another set that is Frostgrave tiny scale and has integral bases but we need properly scaled (which for me means Mantic or Fireforge Fantasy scale), and versatile (full of options, both for armour and weapons) knight kit that is also free from integral abominations plague.
I think Wargames Atlantic is doing just that right now. Edit: After checking I saw they indeed have puddle bases... too bad.
And I think in the past few years the lines between truescale and heroic scale you're hinting at have blurred a little. GW went to a new scale altogether with AoS, but their old WHFB miniatures are 28mm with strange proportions i.e. heroic scale. I feel Middleearth, Fireforge, WGA Fantasy and Oathmark/ Northstar all follow a similar scale of "a little bit larger than 28mm historicals but the difference is small enough that you can still mix&match". IMO that's the best way if you don't want classical heroic scale miniatures (of which there are still a lot... try to find truescale dwarfs that aren't Old world or Warcraft lookalikes).
I agree on your notion about the bases. Cutting them is not fun and the WGA bases to solve the problem shouldn't be necessary (and need filling, too, still hobby time that could be used more effectively).
As much as I like the terrain bits in the D&L campaigns, I don't use them for wargaming if they're small and under 1" in size.
The Elven Woods rocks and trees get the most usage, followed by the Giants, then the Elven Woods bits, of which the smallest ones are mounted on a 2"x2" base.
Haven't done RPGs for years ): so can't say how I'd use terrain bits and scatter for RPG's.
For boardgame bling, I use any terrain bit that fits, more or less in a 1" hex or square. For Gloomhaven, I could have used smaller thorns and more crystals, but used proxies.
Dioramas, of course, I use whatever I can get my fingers on.
I assume its an accounting requirement, along the lines of why I get invoices in packages I've ordered from places online. I've already paid for them (which is why they shipped them in the first place) but I imagine there is a paperwork trail that has to completed.
@Archon - for your future campaign - one thing I think would be nice to have are miniatures that are not locked with their diorama bases/overzealous tactical rocks so they can be put on any base without extensive conversions needed.
Another thing. I am not sure how good is your Village Pack selling but I think if you would offer those huts separate, and in the pack of at least three, so one could quickly set a small village, they would sell for sure, as both RPG and wargames would find them very useful.
Shadow Walker wrote: Another thing. I am not sure how good is your Village Pack selling but I think if you would offer those huts separate, and in the pack of at least three, so one could quickly set a small village, they would sell for sure, as both RPG and wargames would find them very useful.
The highlander hut is on the same sprue as the following so it can't be sold separately (without retooling)
- Swamp Hut
- Watch Tower
- Cage
4 sprues makes 1 of each except the highlander hut as it only needs 2 sprues to make a full hut so you get 2 in the set.
The highlander hut is on the same sprue as the following so it can't be sold separately (without retooling)
Shame then, maybe they will retool it as I have no interest in the other pieces from that kit.
They have said they are going to look at how they tool things going forward so they are better arranged for retail sales. I can see that at some point they may retool some sets for a similar purpose. That said, I doubt the highlander hut is anywhere near the top of the list. You'd be better off looking elsewhere, it's not the most unique thing.
You'd be better off looking elsewhere, it's not the most unique thing.
Renedra produces similar building called Viking House but I had already built two kits from them, and was really dissapointed about their quality, and that is why I look for Archon when it comes to hard plastic terrain.
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Also there is a reason that Mantic, WGA, Fireforge, Northstar, Wyrd etc. do the same. It is resin and metal that are now niche materials even if in the past they were the most popular.
