Vineheart01 wrote: Rokkits.
Its not that easy to spam rokkits in one unit since tankbustas suck balls right now but its fairly easy to just have rokkits sprinkled everywhere.
It's incredibly easy to spam rokkits in one place.
You just need to use Grot Tanks. Each one can be armed with rokkits & the leader can have a 2nd rokkit.
They come in units of 4/8. So that's 5-9 rokkits, all hitting on 4+ (because grot) from one squad.
You can have 3 squads.
What's that? Your going to complain that grot tanks are FW & are sold out atm?
Good news! Grot Tanks are easy & fun to scratch build for relatively cheap!
i mean personally i have a 3D printer so i dont care about things being sold out. But, generally right now if you dont already have the FW model you really should not get any. They keep getting sent to legends on a whim, and while i dont care about legends (since nobody that cares i have printed models would care about legends) majority of people do care. I actually have a squad of grot tanks with KMBs. Unfortunately, KMBs suck right now....they need their extra AP back to justify the hazardous.
Vineheart01 wrote: i mean personally i have a 3D printer so i dont care about things being sold out.
But, generally right now if you dont already have the FW model you really should not get any. They keep getting sent to legends on a whim, and while i dont care about legends (since nobody that cares i have printed models would care about legends) majority of people do care.
I actually have a squad of grot tanks with KMBs. Unfortunately, KMBs suck right now....they need their extra AP back to justify the hazardous.
Especially as the Megablasta on Grot tanks for some reason only got 2 shots and not 3 like the one spannas are wielding... Grot tanks also give up "bring it down" fairly easy - 8 VP for a 155 points unit that is rather squishy doesn't seem to be a good deal, especially since most ork lists are rather character-heavy; so if you include some trukks and the squigboss, your enemy has decent chance of maxing assassinate and BiD as fixed secondaries...
Bossdoc wrote: I had severe problems dealing with 2x10 DW Knights in a recent RTT. 4 W, 4++, -1 D is really nasty, especially paired with armour of contempt. I threw Mozrog, 10 Nobs w/ Warboss and 10 Beastsnaggas w. beastboss at them, which helped to get rid of one block over 2 fight phases, but after that, the second Blob was there and destroyed the nobs and Mozrog... Flash Gitz are inefficient because of damage reduction, everything with AP 2 or less is bad because with cover and AoC, they are still saving at 2+... Don't see anything except swamping them in 1000 points of melee heavy hitters, if you build your army like that...
I don't recall any weapon profile that can handle that profile efficiently, unless you bring mass choppas. Do remember that those bricks are usually slow and expensive, and require tons of support. So the other option is, you can provide roadblocks but avoid giving him charges to decrease movement, you can also handle his support and ignore the bricks, he can't be everywhere. You can also delay one and deal with the other, while you delay pelt it with everything you got causing attrition, really depends what is your approach and the rest of the list. Or if our like me, everything crumbles under mass attacks, but this is better with ranged weapons.
Vineheart01 wrote: i mean personally i have a 3D printer so i dont care about things being sold out.
But, generally right now if you dont already have the FW model you really should not get any. They keep getting sent to legends on a whim, and while i dont care about legends (since nobody that cares i have printed models would care about legends) majority of people do care.
I actually have a squad of grot tanks with KMBs. Unfortunately, KMBs suck right now....they need their extra AP back to justify the hazardous.
Especially as the Megablasta on Grot tanks for some reason only got 2 shots and not 3 like the one spannas are wielding... Grot tanks also give up "bring it down" fairly easy - 8 VP for a 155 points unit that is rather squishy doesn't seem to be a good deal, especially since most ork lists are rather character-heavy; so if you include some trukks and the squigboss, your enemy has decent chance of maxing assassinate and BiD as fixed secondaries...
forget the blastas on grot tanks, just use rockits. i dont think they are squishy at all. T6 W5 and a 3+ save... they also have a reactive 6" move to get away from charges or to reposition behind cover. on the plus side... if something is shooting at your gretchin, they arent shooting at your trukks, squigs or manz. its a win/win
as far as FW stuff goes... as long as its available go for it. i have a custom build chinork i use as a trukk now. if it happens it happens nothing you can do about. but grot tanks are rather cheap to scratch build, there are tons of youtube vids and i've posted a amazon link somewhere, where you can buy 4 comic WWII tanks with lots of details for 10 bucks. took myself a weekend to build and paint em
Vineheart01 wrote: i mean personally i have a 3D printer so i dont care about things being sold out.
But, generally right now if you dont already have the FW model you really should not get any. They keep getting sent to legends on a whim, and while i dont care about legends (since nobody that cares i have printed models would care about legends) majority of people do care.
I actually have a squad of grot tanks with KMBs. Unfortunately, KMBs suck right now....they need their extra AP back to justify the hazardous.
Especially as the Megablasta on Grot tanks for some reason only got 2 shots and not 3 like the one spannas are wielding... Grot tanks also give up "bring it down" fairly easy - 8 VP for a 155 points unit that is rather squishy doesn't seem to be a good deal, especially since most ork lists are rather character-heavy; so if you include some trukks and the squigboss, your enemy has decent chance of maxing assassinate and BiD as fixed secondaries...
T6 W5 sv3+ x4 models(at minimum) at mv10 + a reaction move -- you've an odd idea of the definition of squishy.
Oh, and they're vehicles. So if you're inclined you can heal them with a Mek.
On giving up Bring It Down:
Well, personally, I play a Grot army. Other than the Red Gobbo & 3 squads of foot Grethin, guess what every other Grot unit has in common? The vehicle KY.
I play? My deployment zone is stuffed with vehicles. I assume I'm giving up BID. I compensate for this by making the opposing force dead. Starting on turn 1 with whatever's most suited to harm my Grot Tanks.
On any weapon, in any force, being Hazardous in this edition:
Pfft.
It's a 1/6 chance. Wich means I'll be fine 5 times out of 6. I like those odds.
On any weapon, in any force, being Hazardous in this edition:
Pfft.
It's a 1/6 chance. Wich means I'll be fine 5 times out of 6. I like those odds.
i dont get the appeal of megablastas on grottanks.
the only difference between rockits and blastas are d3 vs 2 shots and flat 3dmg vs D6. I personally prefer the Flat 3dmg. plus rockits get blast, so vastly better vs heavy infantry, GEQ and MEQ's
for 4 tanks you roll FIVE hazardous tests... so you basically loose 2 wounds per turn
IF it were d3 vs flat 3 shots... there would be some competition. but as it stands, blastas are VIABLE but rockits are vastly superior
3 shots vs D3+Blast
Both S9, AP2
D6 vs flat3 damage
Hazardous
Since it doesnt have better AP, the Hazardous combined with potential bad damage rolls makes it iffy as it is...add on 1/6 chance to nuke myself? pass....hard pass....
(This is ignoring that for some reason Grot Tanks have 2 shot Kmbs but still D3 rokkits)
Even if youre gonna do something cheeky like give a dread 4x guns and have a mek follow him, i'd take the 4x rokkits WAY before the 4x kmbs.
On any weapon, in any force, being Hazardous in this edition:
Pfft.
It's a 1/6 chance. Wich means I'll be fine 5 times out of 6. I like those odds.
i dont get the appeal of megablastas on grottanks.
the only difference between rockits and blastas are d3 vs 2 shots and flat 3dmg vs D6. I personally prefer the Flat 3dmg. plus rockits get blast, so vastly better vs heavy infantry, GEQ and MEQ's
Suit yourself.
I rather like the potential to completely saw heavy vehicles, monsters, & Knights in half with a single volley of KMB shots. That's why I've chosen the KMBs. Sure, it's d6 damage. And some of those rolls will be a 1 or 2. But odds are I'm doing 3+ damage. I'm perfectly happy to gamble on rolling a 1 or 2 for the potential to roll a 5 or 6. I've yet to have any real problem deleting heavy infantry.
I also built my Grot tanks last edition where the rules for KMB were different and I'm not going to tear models I like apart to chase the current meta.
RedNoak wrote: for 4 tanks you roll FIVE hazardous tests... so you basically loose 2 wounds per turn
Well, no. First of all? Any rolls of 1 = 3mw. 2nd? I have a 5/6 chance per dice roll of being perfectly fine. Most times I've taken no damage this edition. Like I said, I like those odds.
You want to play it safe? Take rokkits. You want to gamble for a better result? Then use the KMB.
You get an average of .5 more damage per failed save with KMB over Rokkits. And that only against targets with enough wounds to matter.
Against MEQ? They're offensively worse shot per shot than Rokkits.
Gravis? Same thing.
Hordes? Not even close thanks to Blast, though at least equal on a shot-to-shot basis.
Put another way, to average 7 damage to a Rokkit Tank's 6 against a Knight, you'd need just under a max Grot Tank squad, with the two bonus weapons.
Whereas I’m delighted to have spurred such a lengthy and lively debate over grot tanks of all things, I’m sorry to see ccs taking such flak over your choice of load out as either way you’ve inspired me to get out the plasticard and get down to some serious scratchbuilding.
Well, no. First of all? Any rolls of 1 = 3mw. 2nd? I have a 5/6 chance per dice roll of being perfectly fine. Most times I've taken no damage this edition. Like I said, I like those odds.
Min squad of 4 will overheat 60% times. Squad of 8 80% times. Plus chances of multiples.
So 60% times you will take at least 3 MW with minimum squad.
So I would say either you take damage most of the time...or you are using faulty dice that roll less 1's than average. For sake of fairness in that case buy new ones.
It's not probably going to decide game either way which you take but if GW was aiming for actual balance there should be something to balance things out. Even without hazardous blast is bigger buff than 0.5 damage buff.
Gulgog TufToof wrote: Whereas I’m delighted to have spurred such a lengthy and lively debate over grot tanks of all things, I’m sorry to see ccs taking such flak over your choice of load out as either way you’ve inspired me to get out the plasticard and get down to some serious scratchbuilding.
Naahhh it's not Flak. It's a discussion.
Mathematically rockits are superior, but I get the appeal of wasting a tank with some lucky rolls (or stomp my own with unlucky rolls )
Shame thought that they don't get 3 shots like any other kmb. Well, at least rockits are not heavy so there's that
More than anything else, given how most FW kits are going the way of the dodo over time, I'm hoping something as flavourful as Grot Tanks get ported over to the mainstream codex (probably as some overly wordy trademarked name replacement) now that they've beast snaggas have had their wave. Given their focus on the Red Gobbo on the past few years, it wouldn't be surprising for me if they did a bit of a mini Grot Revolushun wave of new grot units given we haven't had a new kit dedicated to them since Mek Gunz.
Honestly.... I don't think so.
Red gobbo is a funny running Gag. He gets a new model every Christmas.
We got buggy and beastsnaggaz, doubtful that any meaningful release will come. Still fingers crossed for nazdreg though. He could any deepstrike any unit in third edition, had a 3+ BS and a powerful megablasta.
Of course I would be glad to get new rules for minisquigoth, grottanks or looted wagons... But yeah... I doubt it.
@topic... Ran double squigboss today. Mozdrag and regular one with hwkc... Not really competitive, but fun as heck. Each of em ate like 6 Lances and withstood heavy wraithguard fire. Regular one was dropped by a desperately charging ravager
Also tried snaggaz in trukks again... Very useful. But personally I still like warboss+nobz more. Better Vs vehicle heavy lists and 35points cheaper
Just had the second encounter with DG, a draw at 63-63, Weirdboyz's at clutch play prevented defeat. Squigbuggy and scrapjet were a disappointment. I am considering shock dragsta and deffkoptas. At least the dragsta makes it dangerous for character + the teleport allows for scoring points. Not so sure for defkoptas but at least they can get some nice guns on the field + more wounds and OC.
Flashgitz were amazing , 8 wounds to a warhound while inside a truck, 10 to a plague crawler even when 4 of them down and not receiving the extra hits bonus. Incridible unit. Tempted to bring a second squad on a truck.
I had a meme list game with a Dred Mob since I was kind of getting bored playing with the current Ork meta list, it was against Eldar as well and although I did end up losing by T4, I was able to keep up surprisingly well in points (if not in models, Killa Kanz die like flies) up until that time, so I'm wondering what you guys think would be needed in a Dred Mob detachment that we (hopefully) will be receiving in our codex at some point. I know strats are a big part, since vehicle heavy lists are DOA because we basically get to use little to none of our current WAAAGH! Tribe strats on them. Would having the detachment give units with the WALKERZ keyword something like additional movement on advancing/charging make the difference, I think mobility and lack of meaningful ranged damage is a key weakness in Dred Mob lists at the moment, so I feel having a Tellyporta strat or relic that let's you either deep strike pre-game or teleport a walker during a match would help a lot in terms of making them viable. I think they'd have to reconsider Big Meks as support units as well at some level, because as it is, none of them barring the regular Mek actually synergizes with them since they can't join their units and their weapons/auras don't do anything for them.
@Grimskul
Yeah I'll be very interested in how they do a Dredd Waaargh detachment. You are right about the big meks and it would be ace if meks were actually able to join walkerz mobs. Also would be good to bring back the dredd mob so you can have 3 x deff dredds and a mek who buffs them all. Agree with the rest of your post as well. My biggest hope though, is for a rule, probably a strat, that lets them walk through walls, like chaos knights get. Except instead of turning spectral, we just imagine the wall getting smashed to bits. It's all ruins anyway!
PaddyMick wrote: @Grimskul
Yeah I'll be very interested in how they do a Dredd Waaargh detachment. You are right about the big meks and it would be ace if meks were actually able to join walkerz mobs. Also would be good to bring back the dredd mob so you can have 3 x deff dredds and a mek who buffs them all. Agree with the rest of your post as well. My biggest hope though, is for a rule, probably a strat, that lets them walk through walls, like chaos knights get. Except instead of turning spectral, we just imagine the wall getting smashed to bits. It's all ruins anyway!
Yeah, a kool aid man strat to deal with terrain would be sick. Parking lot syndrome is a real issue for a lot of our walker units trying to get stuck in with the enemy.
Haven't posted in a while but I have been playing quite a bit. There are some quirks about 10th but overall in our playgroup it's been pretty well received. I've been doing other armies competitively once to thrice a week but I have really been enjoying Orks in Crusade, and the green tide has been serving me well in small point games . Boyz and Lootas have been a staple with either a Painboy or Warboss to lead the pack in 500-750pt games. Lootas on OW against a unit on an objective has been fantastic in more games than I can count
For the crusade players out there, what are your thoughts on the Weapon Modification battle honor? I have a unit of 10 Lootas who are ready for an upgrade and I would love to improve one of my deffguns, but the wording about "Unit Champion" makes me worried I may have to throw the modification on the Spanner instead, although I really wouldn't consider them a champion the same way a SM Sergeant or Eldar Exarch is.
PaddyMick wrote: @Grimskul
Yeah I'll be very interested in how they do a Dredd Waaargh detachment. You are right about the big meks and it would be ace if meks were actually able to join walkerz mobs. Also would be good to bring back the dredd mob so you can have 3 x deff dredds and a mek who buffs them all. Agree with the rest of your post as well. My biggest hope though, is for a rule, probably a strat, that lets them walk through walls, like chaos knights get. Except instead of turning spectral, we just imagine the wall getting smashed to bits. It's all ruins anyway!
Yeah, a kool aid man strat to deal with terrain would be sick. Parking lot syndrome is a real issue for a lot of our walker units trying to get stuck in with the enemy.
Having walkers burst through terrain would be a fun universal strat in my opinion.
What's that? Your going to complain that grot tanks are FW & are sold out atm?
Good news! Grot Tanks are easy & fun to scratch build for relatively cheap!
Anyone have any links to some nice conversions for Grot Tanks? I'd love to see what people have put together.
I'm pretty sure that weapon upgrades have to go on the spannas.
While they aren't exarchs (few unit leaders are), they are for sure the more experienced boyz leading a bunch of rank and file ladz to where the best loot is to be had.
And let's face it, if you are really honest with yourself, you don't want to update a deff gun for narrative reasons.
i think a proper dreadmob needs more than just a detachment rule.
Our dreads arent super tough, only medium killy, slow, and also we dont have many of them. Unless they start folding FW into normal codexes (doubtful) we have killakanz, deffdreads, and nauts.
Killakanz are actually shockingly good when you just have a squad of 3 of them sneaking up to a midfield objective. People have a weird habit of thinking their melee is bad....it aint lol....
I think for a proper dreadmob to work we both need a new, deffdread-level walker (oversized back-mounted cannon anyone?) and the detachment needs to give mobility and damage reduction.
like, how about a "Racin' on Foot" rule where if a walkerz model is within 6" of a wheeled vehicle it gets +4" movement because its trying to race the trukk/buggy lol...
Jidmah wrote: I'm pretty sure that weapon upgrades have to go on the spannas.
While they aren't exarchs (few unit leaders are), they are for sure the more experienced boyz leading a bunch of rank and file ladz to where the best loot is to be had.
And let's face it, if you are really honest with yourself, you don't want to update a deff gun for narrative reasons.
I don't see anything wrong narratively with beating my opponent, taking their dakka and strapping it to mine for a bigger and better deffgun
But yeah Spanners are close enough to a champion so I'll have to decide if I want +1 BS and +1 AP on the KMB or +1 BS and +1 A
Forceride wrote: My issue with the dread mob is all their models are overcosted point wise.. deffdread at 130? Kans 150? nah.
Btw anyone had any successes with lootas?
I ran 30x Lootas in a 2000pt game along with some Mek Guns before the price hike and they were very enjoyable to use. The full reroll vs targets on objectives with overwatch is fantastic IMO. It entirely depends on your battlefield though because if your LOS is poor and you need to move the Lootas become much worse very quickly.
Vineheart01 wrote: i think a proper dreadmob needs more than just a detachment rule.
Our dreads arent super tough, only medium killy, slow, and also we dont have many of them. Unless they start folding FW into normal codexes (doubtful) we have killakanz, deffdreads, and nauts.
Killakanz are actually shockingly good when you just have a squad of 3 of them sneaking up to a midfield objective. People have a weird habit of thinking their melee is bad....it aint lol....
I think for a proper dreadmob to work we both need a new, deffdread-level walker (oversized back-mounted cannon anyone?) and the detachment needs to give mobility and damage reduction.
like, how about a "Racin' on Foot" rule where if a walkerz model is within 6" of a wheeled vehicle it gets +4" movement because its trying to race the trukk/buggy lol...
damage and/or speed and resistance. Exactly.
Our army generaly lacks the “hard nuts” units. Walkers could fill this position and I can imagine custodian like gameplans about it.
But the resistance needs to be combined with fine shooting (say hallo to rokkit kans) or melee+fast move.
I ran 30x Lootas in a 2000pt game along with some Mek Guns before the price hike and they were very enjoyable to use. The full reroll vs targets on objectives with overwatch is fantastic IMO. It entirely depends on your battlefield though because if your LOS is poor and you need to move the Lootas become much worse very quickly.
Lootas only get rerolls to1 on points? Or did i miss something? Maybe your confusing flashgitz with barduk? 30units is a lot of commitment to be useful, that's 300pts. I am looking more on the 100pts ballpark, maybe 150. Maybe you can describe your experience? Flashgitz tend to make around like 10w~8w on a turn of shooting. i am looking for something efficient for points since i do not have the mek gunz
I ran 30x Lootas in a 2000pt game along with some Mek Guns before the price hike and they were very enjoyable to use. The full reroll vs targets on objectives with overwatch is fantastic IMO. It entirely depends on your battlefield though because if your LOS is poor and you need to move the Lootas become much worse very quickly.
Lootas only get rerolls to1 on points? Or did i miss something? Maybe your confusing flashgitz with barduk? 30units is a lot of commitment to be useful, that's 300pts. I am looking more on the 100pts ballpark, maybe 150. Maybe you can describe your experience? Flashgitz tend to make around like 10w~8w on a turn of shooting. i am looking for something efficient for points since i do not have the mek gunz
Lootas reroll hit rolls of 1 natively.
But, if their target is on an objective, they reroll all hit rolls.
The only issue with lootas is the issue theyve had for a long time, theyre super squishy and putting them in a trukk usually confers some sort of penalty. In a trukk, no rerolls to hit, which hurts badly. Out of a trukk, theyre just boyz (presumably in terrain but still boyz).
The only reason the Spannas are annoying imo is their good gun is 24" in an immobile unit, so it rarely has a juicy target. But when it does, remember they ALSO get the reroll to hit since its not tied to the deffgun.
At least in this edition theyre not ridiculously expensive.
I reach the same conclusion using crunch, i am not looking for a damage dealer but something to threaten by range which is kind of reliable.
Lootas seem to be cheap enough although you have to follow the guidelines for them to be worth it, only shoot at stuff on point.
Being cheap means it's redundant if opponent elects to fire at them. But the numbers are not great, the lack of shoots is still the bigger issue. Probably prefer to bring mek guns for the same price
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess i will test it out. Can't be worst then the previous buggies i hope, worst case they will eat some shooting.
Lootas have been on my list of units to buy and try forever, maybe this is the edition I finally field some.
Does anyone on here use reserves in any significant quantity as a strategy? Beyond just the obvious units like koptas I mean.
I’m thinking that part of the reason I get shot off the board is I put almost all my units on the table T1 giving my opponent their choice of targets to match with their units which are most tailored to annihilate me.
It feels like there’s a strategy wherein you dictate what gets shot off the board each round by successively releasing different types of units and maybe forcing them to waste entire shooting rounds focusing on chaff. Is this a thing?
Gulgog TufToof wrote: Lootas have been on my list of units to buy and try forever, maybe this is the edition I finally field some.
Does anyone on here use reserves in any significant quantity as a strategy? Beyond just the obvious units like koptas I mean.
I’m thinking that part of the reason I get shot off the board is I put almost all my units on the table T1 giving my opponent their choice of targets to match with their units which are most tailored to annihilate me.
It feels like there’s a strategy wherein you dictate what gets shot off the board each round by successively releasing different types of units and maybe forcing them to waste entire shooting rounds focusing on chaff. Is this a thing?
I tend to reserve my Deff Dread and my Squiggoth full of Nobz. They serve as a really nice mid/late game hammer to clean up after my Beastbosses and Squighogs have ran out of steam. They also get to come on with most of their targets in range of a potential charge, and without being shot to pieces.
I sometimes reserves my Deffkoptas, but it's really dependent on whether or not I want to be scoring early, or scoring late. More often than not they're better off scoring points early.
The issue with reserves is that without innately having deep strike, you can only fit so much into reserves. It's a balancing act, as not only are your units on the board going to have more firepower concentrated on them, they're also going to be able to dish out much less damage as there's fewer units. Your units coming out of reserves need to be able to swing the game in your favour the moment they hit the table, but without crippling yourself by putting them in reserves.
I constantly lose to a friend of mine who plays Space Marines. I think we are at 7:1 as it stands now and usually play 2000pts games.
I am a new player, so I definitely make lots of gameplay mistakes.
I'd still really appreciate some input on how to best play against SM and what units work well/suck vs them.
He usually plays 2x5 Flamethrowers, 2 Dreadnoughts, a brick of Agressors with 2 characters that give Lethal Hits & Sustained Hits on 5s (they shred everything I have), a predator and a Landraider with some fight first sword dudes, terminators and heavy intercessors.
I would be really appreciative of any help.
Yalaka wrote: I constantly lose to a friend of mine who plays Space Marines. I think we are at 7:1 as it stands now and usually play 2000pts games.
I am a new player, so I definitely make lots of gameplay mistakes.
I'd still really appreciate some input on how to best play against SM and what units work well/suck vs them.
He usually plays 2x5 Flamethrowers, 2 Dreadnoughts, a brick of Agressors with 2 characters that give Lethal Hits & Sustained Hits on 5s (they shred everything I have), a predator and a Landraider with some fight first sword dudes, terminators and heavy intercessors.
I would be really appreciative of any help.
What is your current list, what models do you have immediate access to to change your list (if needed), and how much are you able/willing to spend on more minis if needed?
The lists I ran varried. But always inlcuded most of the listed units (-10 gretchin, - kommandos, - painboy, - big mek with SAG, - killrig). Let me know if you need any additional information. I didnt want to paste 2 lists, because the message looked really long.
there is a lot of stuff in your list that needs to be droped. I can give you a list that might handle SM but chances are you might just still lose since you might not understand it.
Spoiler:
++ Army Roster (Xenos - Orks) [1,695pts] ++
+ Configuration +
Battle Size: 2. Strike Force (2000 Point limit)
Detachment: Waaagh! Tribe
+ Epic Hero +
Kaptin Badrukk [80pts]
+ Character +
Beastboss [100pts]
Beastboss [100pts]
Beastboss on Squigosaur [185pts]: Headwoppa’s Killchoppa, Thump gun, Warlord
. . Slugga and power klaw
. 4x Nob w/ Slugga and power klaw: 4x Power klaw, 4x Slugga
Nobz [105pts]
. Boss Nob
. . Slugga and power klaw
. 4x Nob w/ Slugga and power klaw: 4x Power klaw, 4x Slugga
+ Dedicated Transport +
Trukk [60pts]: Wreckin' ball
Trukk [60pts]: Wreckin' ball
Trukk [60pts]: Wreckin' ball
Trukk [60pts]: Wreckin' ball
Trukk [60pts]: Wreckin' ball
++ Total: [1,695pts] ++
Before you go out your way to play this list. My best advice is to ask us what are doing wrong and describe your turn. Your list does not help itself since it does not feel well balanced or with purpose in mind.
I also leave 300pts for you to think what to add. But this should be a solid base. Oh yeah weirdboyz are for scoring before you ask.
it's a push your units to opponent face, use the trucks to absorbe T1 alpha and position them in a way to give yourself T2 charges ideally you want beast boyz on vehicles, nobs work on everything unless highT. T2 waagghh and pick carefully what to charge and engage. Flashgitz are there to remove and deal with threats at range, only dismount them if you need the lethal. rest army scores with help of empty trucks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: thats how currently most list's play at top. This is just a base you can fiddle. of the list of models you gave if your opponent is playing meta marines it's going to lose nothing that will help.
Automatically Appended Next Post: yeah its spam trucks because that's what works shrug lol
There's a strong core in that list of units, essentially a handful of the characters aren't great choices and boys are very hit and miss.
If you're willing to spend money on units, then definitely pick up 10 Flash Gitz, Kaptin Badrukk, and another trukk. They're a very dangerous unit and will definitely earn their points back every game.
Otherwise, the competitive scene at the moment leans in very heavily on Nobz with Warbosses, fast scoring units like stormboys, and Beast Snagga units, all crammed into as many Trukks as you can fit in the list.
Youve got most of those units already, you just need to tweak some of the numbers.
yep afrodactyl advise is solid. My opinion is that your still learning the game, having a meta list does not matter. At the end of the day experience matters.
Practice practice practice. With more than one opponent. The key is to understand the game. Training matches on TTS helped me a lot.
Anyway, do you rememeber the discussion “FW models will be forgotten”? Well, last reveal revealed some time unavailable Taurus Venator. Great IG model from the same times as out Mega Dreads, Big Trukks or Kill Krushas.
I am aware that most of my issues stem from lack of experience and gameplay mistakes. I was just wondering what models in my lists make a bad situation even worse.
I watched a lot of deployment videos recently, which should help out a lot I hope. I am also struggeling with moving up to the midfield and playing Round 1. Do you have any suggestions for must-watch video guides etc? I want to work on my subpar gameplay, but I am struggeling to find the ressources/ realize what parts need the most improvement.
TTS training matches sound like an intersting option Tomsug, thanks.
There are plenty of in youtube, but i would say check out art of war ones, their the top of the top.
After that you can check tacticaltortoise, tabletop tatics, dice check, play on tabletop, tabletop titans....
But if your issue is deploy T1 here's some tips:
1. terrain, always make sure there is enough terrain, terrain with LOS makes or breaks shooting armies, auto loss if too few pieces, aim for something like 9-10
2. ask your opponent, this is a social game, things to look for, weapon rages of 36' or more, lots of shoot's combined with ap -2 or ignore cover keywords high damage
3. Identify threats, some models are imposing and impressive but their not the real damage dealer or important pieces for the game, it's import to recognise the pieces that will threaten you the most(this is match dependent and requires some experience, don't beat yourself about it) on space marines tends to be plasma marines, termies etc.
4. hide your stuff T1, this is critical since it forces your opponent out of position
but this is just some tips, there is also pre-measure and your strats so you know what you can and can't do.
Tomsug wrote: Practice practice practice. With more than one opponent. The key is to understand the game. Training matches on TTS helped me a lot.
Anyway, do you rememeber the discussion “FW models will be forgotten”? Well, last reveal revealed some time unavailable Taurus Venator. Great IG model from the same times as out Mega Dreads, Big Trukks or Kill Krushas.
It’s necromunda only and looks vastly larger then the old fw one..
Tomsug wrote: Practice practice practice. With more than one opponent. The key is to understand the game. Training matches on TTS helped me a lot.
Anyway, do you rememeber the discussion “FW models will be forgotten”? Well, last reveal revealed some time unavailable Taurus Venator. Great IG model from the same times as out Mega Dreads, Big Trukks or Kill Krushas.
It’s necromunda only and looks vastly larger then the old fw one..
Tomsug wrote: Practice practice practice. With more than one opponent. The key is to understand the game. Training matches on TTS helped me a lot.
Anyway, do you rememeber the discussion “FW models will be forgotten”? Well, last reveal revealed some time unavailable Taurus Venator. Great IG model from the same times as out Mega Dreads, Big Trukks or Kill Krushas.
It’s necromunda only and looks vastly larger then the old fw one..
It's a Kustom Boosta Blasta, and the size looks perfect
Tomsug wrote: Practice practice practice. With more than one opponent. The key is to understand the game. Training matches on TTS helped me a lot.
Anyway, do you rememeber the discussion “FW models will be forgotten”? Well, last reveal revealed some time unavailable Taurus Venator. Great IG model from the same times as out Mega Dreads, Big Trukks or Kill Krushas.
It’s necromunda only and looks vastly larger then the old fw one..
What's your point?
Just saying it’s not the same game and isn’t usable by IG outside of legends. I have the old models and it’s not like this one is usable for me as much as I like the model.
Conversion material sure.
Tomsug wrote: Practice practice practice. With more than one opponent. The key is to understand the game. Training matches on TTS helped me a lot.
Anyway, do you rememeber the discussion “FW models will be forgotten”? Well, last reveal revealed some time unavailable Taurus Venator. Great IG model from the same times as out Mega Dreads, Big Trukks or Kill Krushas.
It’s necromunda only and looks vastly larger then the old fw one..
What's your point?
Just saying it’s not the same game and isn’t usable by IG outside of legends. I have the old models and it’s not like this one is usable for me as much as I like the model.
Conversion material sure.
Oh no, it's not from the same game..... No Guard player has ever used a model from another system. Or even (gasp!) another manufacturer!
But it's a different size than the old one! So? Scale creep is a thing. Even the basic Marine keeps growing.
It being Legends? Outside the tourney environment?Eh. If you refuse to use the rules GW gives, that's on you.
Tomsug wrote: My point was - if they have a forms, guess they sell it to IG players sooner or later too.
My guess - with the new IG codex 3 months before the end of 10th or something like it
I imagine the Tauros will be adopted as a Guard kit when their codex drops. Just change the crew to guardsmen and replace the stubber/whatever that other gun is for a heavy bolter/multilaser and it's a Guard unit.
Just to perk up the discussion a bit;
When we get our codex, we're likely to be getting retrains of things like Badrukk and Tankbustas as they clear out the resin minis.
Rather than what we would like to get as a brand new kit, what unit types/niche are we sorely lacking that could be covered by a new kit?
We could probably do with a proper fast-moving anti-tank unit. Similar to the role the Scrapjet and Dragsta used to fill when their guns could reliably kill/cripple vehicles. Our existing AT is generally melee based, and it would be nice to have some additional mobile AT threats that aren't Squighogs or Nobs in a trukk, and more AT with ranged capacity.
I say this, but hopefully they just fix Tankbustas as that would solve that niche if they're done properly.
Yeah, one thing our index rules currently lack is a good ranged anti-tank option, the closest to having something relatively consistent for us are Mek Gunz and those got jacked up in price and with cover so widely available, AP-2 really doesn't cut it against the hard targets. Rokkit launchas and KMB being capped at S9 makes it difficult for us to get through anything that isn't a basic transport. So having what you said, a fast ranged anti-tank unit would be cool, would be a good place to revisit the Zzap gun as the premier anti-tank weapon. I would probably also like to see a shooty Meganob variant where they're dual wielding upcharged KMB variants that have tellyportas built into them. Other than that, they could bring back the gunwagon but with a dedicated upgrade sprue that isn't just the milqetoast killkannon, give us a real big gun that is anti-elite infantry and another one that is dedicated to killing monsters/vehicles. Armoured Krumpany as an archetype is something we've lacked since FW stopped really making units for us.
Lootas honestly are also a missed opportunity to give them some variety, as the guns are variable enough that they could give them two weapons options, one that is currently auto-cannon like with S8 AP-1 2 damage (with more shots hopefully and not BS6+) and something single shot like S12 AP-2 D6+1 damage at BS4+.
I assume (Gork I hope so) that we'll receive a dakka focused detachment that gives us Sustained Hits 1 or Lethal Hits in shooting rather than close combat, and presumably strats that give us more consistent damage.
A proper gunwagon would be good. Either serious and just being a really big gun, or a bit zany like the head of a kustom Stompa strapped to a wagon chassis and zapping stuff with the eye laser.
Afrodactyl wrote: A proper gunwagon would be good. Either serious and just being a really big gun, or a bit zany like the head of a kustom Stompa strapped to a wagon chassis and zapping stuff with the eye laser.
Having proper Lifta-Droppa battlewagon in plastic would be rad to be honest, especially if there's options to overcharge it to deal devastating wounds.
I'm hoping for:
*a Dread mob for some serious walker spam.
*Vehicles equipped with huge flame throwers as well as meganobz with real flamerkombiweapons. Both because it makes sense for an army with abysmal BS but also for the arch-Arsonist. Come on, it's an awesome piece of lore. (Also 8" flamers on the Kustom Boosta Blasta, we deserve it)
*Playable tankbustas
*A shooting detachment because Bad Moonz as well as the War of Dakka. Also a piece of awesome lore.
*Playable airplanes, because who doesn't love the ork aircrafts?
*Return of the Bonebreaka (everybody likes a brick armed with just a deffrolla hurtling towards the enemy. Or maybe it's just my love for the brute ram ships from Battlefleet Gothic shining through?)
*Playable Ghazkull
*Twelve-man biker squads
I didn't realise that the KBB only has 6" flamers. WTF
In terms of detachments we already have the melee one, so if the Necron book is anything to use as a barometer we'll probably get a shooty one, a movement one, a toughness one and then two based around a handful of units (probably walkers and then maybe like Squigs or Meks or something).
Afrodactyl wrote: I didn't realise that the KBB only has 6" flamers. WTF
In terms of detachments we already have the melee one, so if the Necron book is anything to use as a barometer we'll probably get a shooty one, a movement one, a toughness one and then two based around a handful of units (probably walkers and then maybe like Squigs or Meks or something).
Yeah, here's hoping. I could see the movement one being divided between a deep strike focused/tellyportas detachment or a speed freeks detachment, one being a "bully boyz" detachment focused on Warbosses, Nobs, Meganobz and maybeee Flash Gitz, and another towards Beast Snaggas.
Either way, looking forward to more variety on enhancements and what changes are going to happen on the datasheets. Given that they've let the Cryptek with Canoptek cloak join wraiths, I'm hoping they let the Big Mek with KFF join Killa Kanz and possibly Deff Dreadz if they let them become one unit without splitting them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Since we saw one of the units for Admech get split into two, I doubt it would happen but what would make shoota boyz relevant in today's meta? I feel like they've been left behind with the arms race of 9th edition and the shoota has become increasingly useless, both in terms of offense and utility, as it lost the assault keyword and relevance as an anti-infantry weapon since the choppa got buffed while negative to hit modifiers ran all over the place. Would shoota boyz have to be their own datasheet to make them useful compared to choppa boyz? Or could the shoota be changed enough to actually be worth considering over choppas? Off the top of my head, they should be assault at the very least, with sustained hits 1 built in. maybe 3 shots base rather than rapid fire 1 (let's be real, most boyz units are not getting within 9" of an enemy unit to charge them). I could see their datasheet (if they were a separate unit from choppa boyz) having them ignore to hit modifiers as a "wall of dakka" if all of them shoot at the same unit. That or getting some bonus on shooting at enemy units on objectives.
The main deterrent from this happening I think is that the current monopose boyz kit has an uneven distribution of shootas and choppas in the same kit, which usually informs GW's unfortunate "No Models, No Rules" policy.
As a general rule, really really dont get your hopes up before an Ork codex.
GW have never done us any favors, if we are lucky there will sort of be a list in there, some where, that can compete.
But hoping for stuf is just setting up for disapointment
75-80% of ork data sheets are trash so they have to come up with some very good rules to make anything other than the "Goff" pressure/trukk list work
and I dont think they are ready to admidt mistakes so
Fortunately the current wave of codexes are basically a tweaked index, and our index is pretty alright. Hell, we're towards the higher end as far as competitive factions go.
And with our units there's obviously some outliers in terms of great units and bad units, but generally speaking I'd say most of our units are usable or have a niche. The only things I can think of that really don't measure up are the planes (because current flyer mechanics are awful) and Tankbustas (because you can only take 5 with a fixed loadout that doesn't know whether it wants to shoot or charge and doesn't have the oomph or volume to really do either).
The main reason that most lists are Goff pressure/trukk spam is that the detachment we started with is a melee one. We have a good amount of units that have decent shooting and just need a little nudge to be really good.
This is true for a lot of factions that have been shoehorned into one playstyle because we only got one detachment each at launch. Unless all 9f the detachments we get given are beyond awful then there's going to be build diversity after the codex drops.
Afrodactyl wrote: and Tankbustas (because you can only take 5 with a fixed loadout that doesn't know whether it wants to shoot or charge and doesn't have the oomph or volume to really do either).
Its not a question. Theres no mystery or ambiguity. They're a shooting unit, specialized against vehicles/monsters, that gets a boost if they can get within 12" of a target.
Afrodactyl wrote: and Tankbustas (because you can only take 5 with a fixed loadout that doesn't know whether it wants to shoot or charge and doesn't have the oomph or volume to really do either).
Its not a question. Theres no mystery or ambiguity. They're a shooting unit, specialized against vehicles/monsters, that gets a boost if they can get within 12" of a target.
I get that they're supposed to be an anti-vehicle/monster shooting unit, but 3 rokkits with a slight boost against those targets doesn't really tick that box. Rokkit pistols are awful. The tankhammer isnt terrible but you only get one and you have to take it in place of a Rokkit launcha.
If you want to use the Tankhammer then you're not going to be able to shoot the rokkits. If you want to shoot the rokkits, then you're not using the Tankhammer. And you have to protect 6 T5 5+ wounds in the process.
At the moment Tankbustas are more of a bomb Squig delivery system, and they're not even the best for doing that because Kommandos and Squighogs exist.
I fully get what you mean, but they're not an effective shooting unit and they're not an effective anti-vehicle/monster unit. They cost too much for what they currently do, they don't do a lot of what they're supposed to do, and they're way too frail for what they're offering currently.
Afrodactyl wrote: and Tankbustas (because you can only take 5 with a fixed loadout that doesn't know whether it wants to shoot or charge and doesn't have the oomph or volume to really do either).
Its not a question. Theres no mystery or ambiguity. They're a shooting unit, specialized against vehicles/monsters, that gets a boost if they can get within 12" of a target.
I get that they're supposed to be an anti-vehicle/monster shooting unit, but 3 rokkits with a slight boost against those targets doesn't really tick that box. Rokkit pistols are awful. The tankhammer isnt terrible but you only get one and you have to take it in place of a Rokkit launcha.
Well, this is about as effective as Ork AT shooting gets.
The rokkit pistol isn't awful it's just a range 12" rokkit.
On the Tank Hammer.... No, you do not take it in place of a rokkit. The squad comes hard set at 3 rokkits, 1 TL rokkit pistol, and 1 tank hammer.
Afrodactyl wrote: If you want to use the Tankhammer then you're not going to be able to shoot the rokkits. If you want to shoot the rokkits, then you're not using the Tankhammer. And you have to protect 6 T5 5+ wounds in the process.
Again, no.
The tank hammer is a last ditch weapon of opportunity.
Assuming you are in the position to make use of the tank hammer in the 1st place? Then you're at 12" or less from the target. Wich means you'll have 1) thrown a bomb squig (unless you're out or saving it for something better - but why save it as the squads going to die momentarily), 2) fired the rokkit pistol (because range 12"), and fired a salvo of 3x d3 rokkits. You then roll well on the charge & pick off the remaining wounds in CC.
If the targets still alive? Then you won't likely be worrying about firing those rokkits in future rounds - because the squad will soon be dead.
But how this is most likely to work out is that you've taken casualties while coming into that magic 12" or less range. The 1st wound kills the tank hammer, the next kills off the rokkit pistol, & then the rokkits (starting with the Boss). The hammer & pistol are just ablative wounds for the rokkits.
Afrodactyl wrote: At the moment Tankbustas are more of a bomb Squig delivery system, and they're not even the best for doing that because Kommandos and Squighogs exist.
They don't have to be the best. Just another.
Afrodactyl wrote: I fully get what you mean, but they're not an effective shooting unit and they're not an effective anti-vehicle/monster unit. They cost too much for what they currently do, they don't do a lot of what they're supposed to do, and they're way too frail for what they're offering currently.
is 12pts/ork too expensive? "eh".
You just have to figure out how to make them work for you.
Me? Whatever the faction, I like shooty armies. I could get my use out of these guys. They might not be my 1st pick shooty foot Ork wise, but I wouldn't auto-dismiss them ether.
Rokkit Pistol is also 1 shot, S7 (though mitigated by TL), AP-1, and Dd3 instead of flat 3.
And considering what the squad used to be, namely all Rokkits all the time... Yeah, you're losing out on a Rokkit for a Tankhammer.
Ablative wounds can be valuable, but on a 5-man squad with Orky shooting, you really don't NEED them. So the fact that you're forced to take them... It's rough.
Against a pretty standard T10 3+ Vehicle or Monster model, a Tankbusta squad does the following from 12":
The issue with that is that our shooting is generally so lackluster that we can't afford to take a shooting unit that's only alright at shooting, unless it also does something else really well.
Mek guns are great ranged AT, they're decently tough and they screen your backline.
Lootas are pretty good as a ranged all-rounder, especially when shooting at things on objectives, but can also hold your backline.
Flash Gitz generally delete whatever they're pointed at.
Deffkoptas don't have great ranged output but they're really fast and bully stuff off of objectives and harass backlines.
Killa Kanz and Grot Tanks are just more mobile Mek Gunz, and Kanz have decent melee punch too.
Shokkjump Dragsta shoots at characters and picks off wounded vehicles. Also good for jumping onto objectives and backlines.
Even the Stompa has lots of shots meme potential.
Tankbustas just kinda suck at the moment and need fixing. They got done dirty, and I'm really hoping they get new rules and a new kit when the codex drops that does them justice. Also, Rokkit pistols being dumb and awful is a hill I am willing to die on
JNAProductions wrote: Rokkit Pistol is also 1 shot, S7 (though mitigated by TL), AP-1, and Dd3 instead of flat 3.
And considering what the squad used to be, namely all Rokkits all the time... Yeah, you're losing out on a Rokkit for a Tankhammer.
Ablative wounds can be valuable, but on a 5-man squad with Orky shooting, you really don't NEED them. So the fact that you're forced to take them... It's rough.
Against a pretty standard T10 3+ Vehicle or Monster model, a Tankbusta squad does the following from 12":
8 CCW attacks
40/6 or 20/3 hits
20/9 wounds
20/27 failed saves
20/27 or .74 damage
2 Tankhammer attacks
10/6 or 5/3 hits
5/6 wounds, which are Devastating
10/6, 5/3, or 1.67 damage
Total, assuming your 6 T5 5+ Wounds make it to 12" and charge unscathed...
5.79 damage
So you can do a little more than half-kill a Rhino worth 75 points, with your 110 point squad.
Also, it's not 12 points per Ork, it's 22.
If you factor in the bomb squig and sustained hits in CC, then during waagh they deal about 10 Damage to any 3+ save vehicle. So while they still are squishy as hell, they might work with a points reduction to 90 or 95 points, if you find some space in one of your trucks, e.g. accompanying a small nobs or meganobs squad. If you need to buy a separate transport just for them, they are probably not worth it.
JNAProductions wrote: Rokkit Pistol is also 1 shot, S7 (though mitigated by TL), AP-1, and Dd3 instead of flat 3. And considering what the squad used to be, namely all Rokkits all the time... Yeah, you're losing out on a Rokkit for a Tankhammer.
Ablative wounds can be valuable, but on a 5-man squad with Orky shooting, you really don't NEED them. So the fact that you're forced to take them... It's rough.
Against a pretty standard T10 3+ Vehicle or Monster model, a Tankbusta squad does the following from 12":
8 CCW attacks 40/6 or 20/3 hits 20/9 wounds 20/27 failed saves 20/27 or .74 damage
2 Tankhammer attacks 10/6 or 5/3 hits 5/6 wounds, which are Devastating 10/6, 5/3, or 1.67 damage
Total, assuming your 6 T5 5+ Wounds make it to 12" and charge unscathed... 5.79 damage
So you can do a little more than half-kill a Rhino worth 75 points, with your 110 point squad.
Also, it's not 12 points per Ork, it's 22.
If you factor in the bomb squig and sustained hits in CC, then during waagh they deal about 10 Damage to any 3+ save vehicle. So while they still are squishy as hell, they might work with a points reduction to 90 or 95 points, if you find some space in one of your trucks, e.g. accompanying a small nobs or meganobs squad. If you need to buy a separate transport just for them, they are probably not worth it.
Bomb Squig adds 5/3 damage, or 1.33. Sustained Hits makes them hit 1/1 attacks, for...
8 CCW attacks 8/3 hit 8/9 failed saves, or .89 damage
Bomb squig is 5/6 x 2 = 1,66 D, So 9,37 D average during Waagh.
Comparison to 5 Flash Gitz (generally considered one of the best units in our index):
Ideal Situation (Closest target, stationary, ammo runt, CC during Waaagh) against T10-11 Vehicle, that's
20 Shots, 10 hits + 3,33 lethal hits. The 10 hits deal another 3,33 wounds for a total of 6,66 wounds at -1 D2, which equals 6,66 D.
Then 25 Attacks CC hitting on 3s with sustained, wounding on 5 with -1 (25 x 5/6 x 1/3 x 1/2) is another 3,47 D.
So our best shooting unit deals roughly 1 more D against this targets and significantly less against T12 vehicles like knights (5 in shooting, 1,73 in CC). Flash gitz are good against are larger spread of targets, which makes them better allrounders, and they are slightly tougher with 4+ and 10 wounds and could be buffed by Badrukk, but there are situations where Tankbustas might find a place in lists if their points get reduced to flash gitz level.
As an addendum, 2 Kustoms Kannons for 110 points deal 4,08 D to knight equivalent (5,44 to rhino equivalent), are again somewhat more durable than Bustas, but limited in Los due to abysmal movement, which offsets their better range.
I i would say i would like variety. A better internal balance so i don't need extra rules to bring most of our sheets. It feels bad because this also makes some units on untouchable for nerfs with out crippling our way of play.
Forceride wrote: I i would say i would like variety. A better internal balance so i don't need extra rules to bring most of our sheets. It feels bad because this also makes some units on untouchable for nerfs with out crippling our way of play.
Honestly it's not looking good for the dex.
OTOH now that GW already broke from initial saying of datasheets remaining mostly as they were and datasheets AREN'T holy "can't alter things" it's quite feasible idea that comes the ork codex datasheets gets upgraded.
But then again with GW everything's never usable so that players keep buying new units.
Yeah, we only need tweaks to some sheets, it's possible. Mostly what we need is more shots at max range or some price drops.
But i am not gonna put my hands on the fire for GW.
Tanbustas is fairly easy to aproach with points.
Flashgitz? Not so much if they receive extra buffs through detach, i can see them being busted, if they try to nerf them, they ruin the sheet for every other detach...
I can see tankbustas reinvisioned with codex but I’m really only expecting 2 character updates and a small release this time. Zagstruk and badrukk is my guess.. I’d say weirdboy, banner nob, and kff bigmek are the most important but they don’t seem to want to touch those.
What we definitely need is an option for another build than just “trukk company”.
Speedfreaks or walkers or something.
Tankbustas are damned. Their pistol-hammer-and-3-rokkits fix setting makes them useless with almost any kind of the rules = new model release is essential to fix them. And regardless of this new model - what are tankbustas? Just some infantry you cen put in the trukk. New tankbustas can hardly change the way we play…
Tankbustas do need a revision of their ruleset beyond just overpriced "boyz with rokkits", ideally in a way that synergizes with either a WAAAGH! being called or being joined by one of our HQ's, because historically they've just been loaded up in transports and let loose/hope for the best. Would be more interesting if they gave them a bit more utility.
Grimskul wrote: Tankbustas do need a revision of their ruleset beyond just overpriced "boyz with rokkits", ideally in a way that synergizes with either a WAAAGH! being called or being joined by one of our HQ's, because historically they've just been loaded up in transports and let loose/hope for the best. Would be more interesting if they gave them a bit more utility.
I think a rules change will be along with a new plastic kit. Would be cool to have tankhammer, rokkit, dual rokkit, or KMB as 4 different options to loadout a squad.
... or actually have tankhammer and pistols be better than rokkits to make up for their short range, instead of worse.
Interesting decisions and multiple possible functions are way better than a super-focused unit in the long run. As long as they are just "boyz with rokkits" they will never be anything but an undercosted unit you spam as much as possible or overpriced garbage.
Jidmah wrote: ... or actually have tankhammer and pistols be better than rokkits to make up for their short range, instead of worse.
Interesting decisions and multiple possible functions are way better than a super-focused unit in the long run. As long as they are just "boyz with rokkits" they will never be anything but an undercosted unit you spam as much as possible or overpriced garbage.
Agreed. Right now something that Orks lack is anything that really either debuffs the enemy (Kustom Boosta Blasta is the only one that comes to mind, and that's assuming it hits the opponent), it would be cool if Tankbustas made it so any other Ork units that shot at the same target as the Tankbustas did got an additional AP due to their speshul rokkits peeling off the armour and exposing their weak points, or debuffing enemy vehicle/monster movement from the cascade of rokkits before fired at them.
Honestly I like the way nobz, flash gitz and beast snaggas play&feel right now and would love to have more infantry play as they do. Damage doesn't bounce off them, they constantly lose models when shot at, but they remain dangerous until severely decimated.
Due to their short range, tank bustas need to get there as well, and I feel like tankhammers and rokkit pistols could be the key to that - imagine tank hammers being dangerous enough that you wouldn't want to pull them first as casualties and forcing opponents to actually wipe the mob to remove their threat.
At least their fluff talks about tank bustas being heavily armored with parts of looted vehicles, so that might also be a niche for them.
Tankbustas having a 3+ save would be quite cool; them just strapping pieces of tanks to themselves as a way to mimic mega armour.
Also, if they had a Tankbusta Bombs ability that was a slightly weaker Tankhammer (one less attack or something, replacing their "close combat weapon" against V/M units) then they could be a unit that advances on tanks and shoots on the way in to then finish off with Tankbusta Bombs, or gives up a few rokkits in order to hit a lot harder in melee.
Then them being a "confused" unit would make sense as they could do both the shooting role and the melee role pretty effectively.
Jidmah wrote: Honestly I like the way nobz, flash gitz and beast snaggas play&feel right now and would love to have more infantry play as they do. Damage doesn't bounce off them, they constantly lose models when shot at, but they remain dangerous until severely decimated.
Due to their short range, tank bustas need to get there as well, and I feel like tankhammers and rokkit pistols could be the key to that - imagine tank hammers being dangerous enough that you wouldn't want to pull them first as casualties and forcing opponents to actually wipe the mob to remove their threat.
At least their fluff talks about tank bustas being heavily armored with parts of looted vehicles, so that might also be a niche for them.
Now I'm imagining the Urukhai Berserker with the torch from Helm's Deep that went and blew up the wall. Just an Orky armoured version and instead of a torch he's got a tankbusta bomb
Would 100% be fine with a scary suicide unit packed to the gills with bombs and tankhammers.
Since the release of Beast Snaggas I wondered why we didn't get an actual specialized beast hunting unit for them or if a new kit of tankbustaz could give us a double duty kit with some harpoons, strings and webs to slow down and trap tanks and monsters. Throw in some marten squigs that nomnom the engine.
What I really miss in orky army for a long long time is … more dakka.
Seriously
Except Dakkajet, Mega Shoota and Gigashoota - there is nothing. Rokkits are great! Makes a great Bang! But there is no real dakka. Neither in in the form that works like a big gun, nor in large volume small arms like shootaboyz.
Tomsug wrote: What I really miss in orky army for a long long time is … more dakka.
Seriously
Except Dakkajet, Mega Shoota and Gigashoota - there is nothing. Rokkits are great! Makes a great Bang! But there is no real dakka. Neither in in the form that works like a big gun, nor in large volume small arms like shootaboyz.
Krumpin is good but I want more dakka…
Pretty much, Flash Gitz is the one outlier where they actually feel proppa Orky where they have both the volume and impact to actually do meaningful damage to pretty much any target. Other guns like our big shootas, shootas and dakkaguns just feel like time wasters with both how little they hit and when they do they bounce off enemy units. I remember back in the day when shoota boyz were actually relevant as a choice vs choppa boyz and twin-linked dakkaguns from warbikers were actually a legitimately good shooting unit.
Yeah, shootas vs sluggas actually being a choice worth considering again would be great. Shoota mobs been doing nothing but collecting dust for a couple of editions now.
GW must be trolling or high on koolaid, like new mini and no data sheet? WTH!
Guess this a we show the mini get's rules for codex? Is it a stand in for Barduk? Like i don't recall any Bad moons warboss, is it a generic? Or do the old guard know what their talking about?
Love the mini though, can't buy.. too much to paint lol
Love the model they gave him and glad to see our predictions were correct. Definitely disappointed he's only legends though, it's kind of annoying how much GW keeps making other BL characters have regular rules (e.g. the Custodes and SoS pair from the Regent's Shadow, Uriel Ventris, or even the SoB character with the Harlequin buddy) but for ours, whether its the Red Gobbo, the Goff Rocker or now Ufthak, they just don't want to seem to give us new character rules that isn't tied to a codex release. Would be nice if they just made this the new base for an Ork Warboss, with more options for both range and melee.
Forceride wrote: GW must be trolling or high on koolaid, like new mini and no data sheet? WTH!
Guess this a we show the mini get's rules for codex? Is it a stand in for Barduk? Like i don't recall any Bad moons warboss, is it a generic? Or do the old guard know what their talking about?
Love the mini though, can't buy.. too much to paint lol
He currently is the biggest ork novel protagonist besides Thrakka and is, amongst other things, known for taking down an emperor titan with nothing but another ork, a grot and a squig.
The story is told in Brutal Kunnin' and he makes a short appearance in Warboss. Both are absolutely worth reading.
Seconded on the books, Mike Brooks did a great job getting the Orky perspective down, especially since he contrasts it well with Imperial/Chaos POV's. It's taken a while but GW have really come around on giving good xenos perspectives recently between the Necron and Ork novels they've released in the past 3-4 years. Funnily enough, I think the main ones they generally haven't done a great job of so far are the Eldar and Tau ones.
Forceride wrote: GW must be trolling or high on koolaid, like new mini and no data sheet? WTH!
Guess this a we show the mini get's rules for codex? Is it a stand in for Barduk? Like i don't recall any Bad moons warboss, is it a generic? Or do the old guard know what their talking about?
Love the mini though, can't buy.. too much to paint lol
Nazdreg. kinda dissapointed they didnt use him. basically had a codex entry in 3rd edition. megaarmour, kustommegablasta and could do some deepstrike frakkery (and can speak high gothic perfectly without an accent)
btw ufthaks story sounds like an rehash of wazzdakkaz story (took a titan down by crashing through the cockpit with his bike and smashing the crew)
Forceride wrote: GW must be trolling or high on koolaid, like new mini and no data sheet? WTH!
Guess this a we show the mini get's rules for codex? Is it a stand in for Barduk? Like i don't recall any Bad moons warboss, is it a generic? Or do the old guard know what their talking about?
Love the mini though, can't buy.. too much to paint lol
Nazdreg. kinda dissapointed they didnt use him. basically had a codex entry in 3rd edition. megaarmour, kustommegablasta and could do some deepstrike frakkery (and can speak high gothic perfectly without an accent)
btw ufthaks story sounds like an rehash of wazzdakkaz story (took a titan down by crashing through the cockpit with his bike and smashing the crew)
...but maybe i'm just old and krumpy
Wazzdakka pretty much went full bad-ass, intentionally crashed through the cockpit with the goal of taking down the titan and slaughtered everyone before driving on.
Ufthak accidentally crashed his SJD on a titan, made the best of the situation and took the whole thing by smashing the controls and having his squig eat the princeps (which he misread as "princess").
Both are orky stories worth telling in their own right, one brutal but kunnin', one kunnin' but brutal.
The first one is Sean Nayden notoriously known ork player. And it is actually pretty interesting.
- Sean took 20 Boyz mob + Warboss with Follow me ladz and fit them in the battlewagon. No matter what in some moment his boyz are 3” in front of the wagon + 6” move + 2” follow me ladz +(2+2) ere we go + 7” advance = 22” move and advance + charge average 7” = 29” range with 20 bodies doing 40 OC and nesting a warboss.
This allows you to do 2 tricks.
First - one charging unit set the line of fight in one single charge. Those, who want to interrupt can do so after your first unit charged. Sorry guys, boyz goes first anyway.
The second trick is, you make a thin layer between attacked nasty unit and your Beastbosses on Squigs right behind them. So there will be just 0,9” between beastboss and the enemy unit. And no chance for base-to-base contact. And because there is no chance to base-to-base contact, you do not have to worry about your bosses, becuase just one model from opponents unit will be able to fight with your precious boss. The rest have to waste their time in killing the boyz…
Interesting is, Sean has no Flashgitz…..
Sean list is also well balanced from the scoring point of view. He gives up the assasinate but due the lack of trukks, he doesnt care about bring it down…
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you want to see one of Seans games, there you are - 4:12 it begins
Another layer worth to mention - Makari has 12” “aura” make melee hits Lethal hits in Waaaagh. Sean max it by appliing it to 20Boyz Mob and double it by Banner Nob
Grimskul wrote: Love the model they gave him and glad to see our predictions were correct. Definitely disappointed he's only legends though, it's kind of annoying how much GW keeps making other BL characters have regular rules (e.g. the Custodes and SoS pair from the Regent's Shadow, Uriel Ventris, or even the SoB character with the Harlequin buddy) but for ours, whether its the Red Gobbo, the Goff Rocker or now Ufthak, they just don't want to seem to give us new character rules that isn't tied to a codex release. Would be nice if they just made this the new base for an Ork Warboss, with more options for both range and melee.
Well rocker I can understand not having rules(kind of silly concept) but the red gobbo and this one yeah should get rules for regular games.
Grimskul wrote: Love the model they gave him and glad to see our predictions were correct. Definitely disappointed he's only legends though, it's kind of annoying how much GW keeps making other BL characters have regular rules (e.g. the Custodes and SoS pair from the Regent's Shadow, Uriel Ventris, or even the SoB character with the Harlequin buddy) but for ours, whether its the Red Gobbo, the Goff Rocker or now Ufthak, they just don't want to seem to give us new character rules that isn't tied to a codex release. Would be nice if they just made this the new base for an Ork Warboss, with more options for both range and melee.
Well rocker I can understand not having rules(kind of silly concept) but the red gobbo and this one yeah should get rules for regular games.
I mean CSM have noise marines, I don't see it being that far-fetched for Orks in particular, where musical instruments and weapons are probably synonymous given that they fight to the sound of war.
Grimskul wrote: Love the model they gave him and glad to see our predictions were correct. Definitely disappointed he's only legends though, it's kind of annoying how much GW keeps making other BL characters have regular rules (e.g. the Custodes and SoS pair from the Regent's Shadow, Uriel Ventris, or even the SoB character with the Harlequin buddy) but for ours, whether its the Red Gobbo, the Goff Rocker or now Ufthak, they just don't want to seem to give us new character rules that isn't tied to a codex release. Would be nice if they just made this the new base for an Ork Warboss, with more options for both range and melee.
Well rocker I can understand not having rules(kind of silly concept) but the red gobbo and this one yeah should get rules for regular games.
Half the ork range is a silly concept to be honest.
Yeah, I'm glad they're moving more into Mek territory this time around, seemed to be somewhat neglected. Not sure if it'll be a special character (Orkimedes perhaps?), or if it's a new generic Mek Boss as Afrodactyl mentioned. Either way, looking forward to seeing how they interact vehicles, particularly walkers, so we can have vehicle heavy lists besides trukk spam be viable as an army archetype.
Afrodactyl wrote: Some sort of Mek Boss with a wrench/Klaw and traktor kannon in the previews. Bodes well for those wanting more Dakka focused waaaghs
I hope the traktor kannon has some ability tied to it as its a really sad weapon to have. What im thinking is hes like the new Necron Overlord with his whirlygig on his back. He teleports with a squad (with some orky downsides as per usual) then with his traktor kannon if he hits he drags a unit closer or gives his unit a bonus to charge, opening up Orkz to have some real mobility options outside of just Trukks and Wagons. Other than that I cant see what niche this Mekboss will fit, do we need a traktor kannon boss? My hope is he has some ranged weapon buffing ability kind of like Szeras, but random again, opening up dakka to be a bit more impactful. But saying that what would he be able to join that matters. Shootaboyz and MANz? Lootaz/Burnaz? Or maybe they make him a Lone Op that has a aura buff. Cant really see what direction they will go with this guy if it comes to dakka boosting.
Great model for Ufthak Blackhawk, too bad it's Legends
The model for
Afrodactyl wrote:Some sort of Mek Boss with a wrench/Klaw and traktor kannon in the previews. Bodes well for those wanting more Dakka focused waaaghs
Grimskul wrote:Yeah, I'm glad they're moving more into Mek territory this time around, seemed to be somewhat neglected. Not sure if it'll be a special character (Orkimedes perhaps?), or if it's a new generic Mek Boss as Afrodactyl mentioned. Either way, looking forward to seeing how they interact vehicles, particularly walkers, so we can have vehicle heavy lists besides trukk spam be viable as an army archetype.
A new Mek Boss would be great and hopefully the traktor kannon will have a fun but silly rule. I'm also hoping they rethink some of the leaders such as the SAG Mek rerolling 1s doesn't help when it's leading Lootas or half the time leading Mek Guns
Well, Ufthak is currently Legends. He may get actual rules in the coming codex. Unlikely, but still a possibility.
I'm honestly hoping we don't change that much with the new codex (other than Tankbustas and planes). Not only for competitive reasons, but I'm spending enough on Tomb Kings in the new year so my Ork budget is significantly reduced
I’m sure this has already been asked and answered before but just asking… if a Waaagh has been called would Ghaz get the devastating wounds rule as well as his Meganobz if he is attached to that unit?
No wolves on Fenris wrote: I’m sure this has already been asked and answered before but just asking… if a Waaagh has been called would Ghaz get the devastating wounds rule as well as his Meganobz if he is attached to that unit?
Tomsug wrote: I checked the warhammer eshop couple of times and…
Big trakk, Mega/Meka dread and Warboss on Warbike are out. Not a single word.
Other FW are there.
And if you want to buy a Deffrolla, you need to buy a whole “Bonebreaker” model )
And the background of the LVO show is so green that it calls Waaaaghh
Looks like those FW units are either getting completely axed, or coming back in plastic when the codex drops.
But that bodes well for the Grot Tanks, Kill Tanks and Squiggoths remaining, as theyve remained on the website when stuffs being taken down.
Yeah exactly. Which can be interpreted in the two ways:
1. Do not buy FW models, big risk of not be able to play them in the future.
2. I ' ve just finished the old Half Trukk from FW. I gonna play it as a Trukk. In ork army nobody cares. And after years of looking I get my hands on Kill Krusha. I gonna play it as Killtank. Wanna know how much have I paid? You don ' t wanna know… Buy FW models you like now. The moment they discontinued them their price is skyrocket. And they are great models. The whole Big Trakk - Kill Krusha - Meka Dread - Kustom Stompa - Grot Tanks line are the best ork models ever. The contemporary models are mediocer the best.
So - do you expect to see some ork news from LVO? The prsentstion background was green
This was always my interpretation (somewhat) with Ghaz and Makari being two separate models for wound allocation, line of sight, etc., but "Ghazghkull Thraka" being the unit name that occupies 18 spaces in a wagon. Because otherwise you can't put Ghaz in any transport if he has two meganobz with him.
Yeah, I was expecting at least one reveal, a bit disappointing but at least it wasn't marine focused for once! Lots of good showings for xenos, glad Dark Eldar finally have plastic Mandrakes after waiting for how long, and Tau getting focus on their auxiliaries rather than just their suits is great to see, interested to see how their Kroot cav matches up to our Squighog ladz, we might have a good calvary krumpin show off in the future!
Maybe i am misunderstanding the explanation but this would mean ghaz unit is 19slot, denying body guards inside the wagon?
Anyway, i will take it with a pinch of salt, ghaz still feels overpriced but with some uses in game. It's all how you pilot the list as was proven in that recent win, very clever use i might say.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also sad no ork reveals. Sad orky noises.
Hey at least i got those massive models of ork meganob and mek for bday. Their huge!
Forceride wrote: Maybe i am misunderstanding the explanation but this would mean ghaz unit is 19slot, denying body guards inside the wagon?
Anyway, i will take it with a pinch of salt, ghaz still feels overpriced but with some uses in game. It's all how you pilot the list as was proven in that recent win, very clever use i might say.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also sad no ork reveals. Sad orky noises.
Hey at least i got those massive models of ork meganob and mek for bday. Their huge!
My interpretation is that the unit "Ghazghkull Thraka" takes up 18 slots, with Ghaz himself being worth 17 and Makari 1. They are separate models for LOS and such, meaning that Makari isn't just a token.
In all honesty, until GW actually give a definitive answer I would just contact your tournament organisers in advance and just go with whatever they say is the case. It's going to suck for Ghaz users not knowing if they can or can't use bodyguards, but at least it's a fairly simple band-aid fix.
So dataslate this week, any predictions or wishes? I honestly just want them to make our less palatable stuff more interesting, with out breaking the stuff that works.
Unfortunately, I predict they'll probably slam hard on some of our cheaper costed units (Grots, very likely Flash Gitz and/or Badrukk in some capacity). Hoping they reverse the price bump the Beastboss on Foot received, they might up Mozrog and the Beastboss on Squigosaur as well.
We're in a pretty good spot otherwise in terms of our index, it's just a matter of getting new detachments that lets us use units that are otherwise suboptimal in the current WAAAGH! Tribe detachment.
I'm playing the International Team Tournament in Coventry this week chaps, so wish me luck We are not serious contenders to win much but it's gonna be a heck of a lot of fun. 40k as a pub sports. Anyway, I like themed lists, so here's what I'm taking.
Spoiler:
Scrapheap Challenge
Orks - Waaargh Tribe
Characters
Big Mek With Shokk Attack Gun [Warlord] 75
-close combat weapon, shokk attack gun, 1 grot assistant
+5 pts on trukk isn’t bad
+2pts a nob doesn’t make them bad
+15 on squig hogs is a bit ruff and I wouldn’t use more than 1 unit..
I got to see what vehicles are ok now…
With ghaz counting as 2 models and trukks still being good I don’t think the battlewagon change matters..but it’s a big -20pt drop..
To bad the Killrig is only ten more after it’s -30pt drop…
Killa kans down -25pts for 3 is nice
Morkanaut down-35 pts nice I mean it still isn’t good but nice.
Every buggy down -10pts not sure that saves them.. honestly vehicles just need a detachment codex detachments will be the main changer for them.
6 'naut list dream is alive! happy with these changes, still don't wanna glue a load of extra gear to the wagon; but at 160 i may go without for a game, see how it goes. Need to model some kans for sure.
Hmmm looks like the biggest winners are wagon and shokjumpsta? I am not sold on that last one.
The drop in all the buggies is nice but i don't think it's enough to make most viable.
The revert on the morkonaught is welcome, drops on rigs is also great to see, but i doubt they will hit the tables...
nobz and truck are my meat and potatoes so o feel it home but i think it's still a fair price.
Defo do not agree with hogs 15pts nerf, that just sends them into unviable grounds, they barely wound vehicles and are more anti light infantry/ light vehicles. Last i check those aren't common. They already need a nob for +1 to hit, if their going up their cost, up their app... their just overpriced now... no way can i think of putting them on a list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also for those thinking of using the trick of charging from a transport when it comes from reserves, think again, you can't charge. They added a comment on the rules just for that. That pretty much kills that trick.
Quite surprised that Nobz went up when I view the cheap Warboss as the issue with that combo. Not surprised about hogs or trukks going up again though.
Even with my built-in points buffer I still end up about 15 points over, so there will have to be some tinkering.
Although I'll be honest, with Old World coming out and my love for Tomb Kings picking up again, my Orks are going on the backburner until the buzz wears off. The games I've got scheduled going forward are all TOW with some kill team sprinkled in, so no time for 40k.
So ufthak blackhawk got a black library model…
Wish it was a legal model like Eisenhorn instead of a limited edition black library model that goes straight to legends/no rules.
gungo wrote: So ufthak blackhawk got a black library model…
Wish it was a legal model like Eisenhorn instead of a limited edition black library model that goes straight to legends/no rules.
If he's got Legends rules he's legal in non- tourney play.
gungo wrote: So ufthak blackhawk got a black library model…
Wish it was a legal model like Eisenhorn instead of a limited edition black library model that goes straight to legends/no rules.
If he's got Legends rules he's legal in non- tourney play.
Which doesn’t matter if the players around you have an aversion to using Legends rules.
Well, I think is maybe fun to make this “rare” models that canot bear the tournament game so nobody actually plays them.
Sculpt this in 3d is not such a cost, few weeks work incl. reflecting tons of comments of the 20 man corporate comittee.
But make a form for it? That cost the real money… maybe if they print from high quality resin like some other companies do with thier models but hey! Pff I 'm out of the boundaries of the rules of this threat, sorry. ….
gungo wrote: So ufthak blackhawk got a black library model…
Wish it was a legal model like Eisenhorn instead of a limited edition black library model that goes straight to legends/no rules.
If he's got Legends rules he's legal in non- tourney play.
Which doesn’t matter if the players around you have an aversion to using Legends rules.
I think it's more annoying with the fact that the Imperium has several book original characters that have directly ported official rules in their codex (e.g. Uriel Ventris for marines, Aleya and Valerian for Custodes/SoS, Eisenhorn as mentioned for the Inquisition, Ephrael Stern for SoB) but Gork forbid GW gives us xenos players a bone. Orks bizarrely have had a lot of unique/commemoration models released for us but no official rule support for some reason.
Interesting he gives deep strike to the unit he joins, but I feel like the Gargantsmasha rule is very situational given that the only Titanic units you're guaranteed to face in most games (also largely dependent on your meta) are Imperial Knights since most super heavies aren't very good. I like that his snazzhammer has devastating wounds like thunder hammers, but outside of rapid ingressing 10 deep striking nobz with him, he doesn't add much beyond what a regular warboss would.
Overall, as expected, most people will just use this as a Warboss stand-in.
Besides trying the kill rig and draggsta ? Not much really. It might be premature but the meta is solved
Raising prices won't makes us change to new units, we actually need rule support and data sheet changes in all our least used.
some might just need point drops like dreads, stompas and other super heavy.
A detach might solve our shooting but i have my doubts considering the best unit for shooting is flashgitz because they made mek guns so expensive.
So yeah, you can't discuss much with out some drastic changes to shake the meta.. hell they could even have buffed planes, it would not make a difference i think.
What i am trying to say is while 10th as a all is a good edition in my opinion, index for orks is shallow. You get a hand full of sheets you can play, rest is fluff. You look at an alderi index and you droll, or csm army rule and you dream... that's it.
How do you see it \ou guys playinf another armies. Jidmah? Or others?
I'm a bit annoyed that GW thinks it necessary to punish us all because tourney players dare to take common orky things - like trucks - in an ork army....
Other than needing to spend a few more pts nothing has really changed for my Grot Tank army.
Well, as I was running battlewagons and SJD with my nobz and squighogs, so my list got cheaper rather than more expensive.
Death Guard were super boring to play, orks are a green pasture full of options and variation in comparison. The only thing the dataslate did for them was buff the auto-takes even more and kill off a fun, but skewy list.
That said, to me the leviathan mission pack has run its course, just like previous edition's tournament set did. Every game feels the same, no adaptation of your strategy needed, tactics mostly revolve around blocking objectives from pile-ins and not fething up the placement of your flash gits. Interesting situations only arise every three games or so.
Currently, I'm back to playing boarding patrol and crusade. The missions not being "solved" and varied allows solves many of the problems that makes competitive play feel stale.
So the index armies (or the ork index at least) are shallow, codex solve this? Cool.
Centuries ago I wrote and organized a huge (in czech rep. scale) two days LARP battle for about 1000 people. On the beginning, it was full of “interesting” rules and such ideas causing the hell of the problems with the game balance and argues between the players who “did it right”. So I optimised and simplified the whole game during the years to make it well working machine with the simple rules and simple missions that proofed to be working without any bugs.
The problem was, that the game as a whole became pretty shallow and repetitive.
“No missions to solve” - that was the problem.
The 10th is a fine set of rules. I like it. But I smell the same shallownes. But maybe it ' s just a lack of the codex….
Automatically Appended Next Post: Jidmah, for what do you use the SJD? Just as a cheap action monkey, isn' t it? Or is there some hidden secret behind?
Basically what other people were doing with their weird boyz. Jump onto objectives or table quarters, threaten cheap backfield units and take potshots at lightly armored characters or multi-wound models like aggressors or bikes. Don't let precision and devastating wounds fool you into thinking Space Marie characters give a damn about getting shot by a SJD or two.
During the Waaagh! they can also shokk tunnel and charge which sometimes catches people off guard. Thanks to their OC3 they can regularly take away objectives from backfield units with OC1.
Due to the base size, you can also sacrifice a SJD to completely mess up one unit's movement, which can be a game-winner but should be used with care.
Very much looking forward for my Ufthak to arrive to add another shokk rifle to my army
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also don't think codices automatically change the game that much, since they leave large parts of the index untouched and usually just provide more of the same rather than revolutionize the army.
The biggest game changer will be the detachments, and while I can see speed freeks and possible shooty orks getting some nice buffs, it remains seen whether that actually changes up our game that much. I wouldn't be surprised with the codex doubles down on the "squat on objective"-playstyle orks have been shoehorned into.
Jidmah wrote: That said, to me the leviathan mission pack has run its course, just like previous edition's tournament set did. Every game feels the same, no adaptation of your strategy needed, tactics mostly revolve around blocking objectives from pile-ins and not fething up the placement of your flash gits. Interesting situations only arise every three games or so.
I wouldn't say no to a new set of cards with changed missions, secondaries, etc. But, for me, each time they change the overall balance of which faction is on top with a dataslate it freshens things up for me. Custodes rising back up the ranks changes the value of melee units (especially glass cannon melee) for example.
I don't think that will solve the problem. Even if you swap out cards, there still be exactly one right way to play the mission and will be solved eventually. It has been the same for pretty much every incarnation of Maelstrom, even the early highly random ones. If you play them too often, they will become stale.
IMO the most interesting competitive games I had were during late 8th, when you were forced to tackle six completely different missions styles with just one army list. It forced non-A-rank units into armies and required you to improvise a lot since you never had the perfect army for any given mission.
Of course, the missions themselves were quite flawed, but if you iterated on them like they did on the secondary objectives, you would eventually come up with six fair, but different missions.
What rulepack do you have in mind Jidmah? I did a check in my old pdfs of core rules and CA2019 and do not see what you have in mind. It' s more or less “hold the objective dude” style of the missions.
But my experience from this time is pretty rookie so maybe I miss something
Jidmah wrote: Well, as I was running battlewagons and SJD with my nobz and squighogs, so my list got cheaper rather than more expensive.
Death Guard were super boring to play, orks are a green pasture full of options and variation in comparison. The only thing the dataslate did for them was buff the auto-takes even more and kill off a fun, but skewy list.
That said, to me the leviathan mission pack has run its course, just like previous edition's tournament set did. Every game feels the same, no adaptation of your strategy needed, tactics mostly revolve around blocking objectives from pile-ins and not fething up the placement of your flash gits. Interesting situations only arise every three games or so.
Currently, I'm back to playing boarding patrol and crusade. The missions not being "solved" and varied allows solves many of the problems that makes competitive play feel stale.
What does your boarding action squad look like? Currently weighing up my options. It looks like a fun game mode!
Tomsug wrote: What rulepack do you have in mind Jidmah? I did a check in my old pdfs of core rules and CA2019 and do not see what you have in mind. It' s more or less “hold the objective dude” style of the missions.
But my experience from this time is pretty rookie so maybe I miss something
Not sure which one it was exactly, and my books are packed up somewhere...
It was the CA which had multiple missions including Four Pillars, Airdrops (drifting objectives which were easier to catch with fly), the Relic, one with characters scoring extra VP and one where objectives started with 18" capture range and then shrunk over time.
While they were all more or less "capture objective", the placement and number of objectives, combined with the special rules made them feel very different. Some outright favored certain unit types, some favored MSU armies while others favored elite bricks.
It wasn't perfect though, and especially not working out well for tournaments. The missions weren't well balanced against each other, some had going first issues and some armies could bring armies which were great at all missions while some armies would auto-lose when the mission required something off them which they simply couldn't do without great sacrifices. The ITC mission in contrast had the reputation to be more balanced and were favored especially by the large American fanbase, though I'd argue that's not because of the mission style, but rather because the ITC guys actually put a ton of effort into them, unlike GW at that time.
When you think back to the first implementation of ITC-style secondaries by GW and maelstrom, they weren't any better than the CA missions. I'm confident with the same amount of effort invested into them, we could have multiple balanced missions which play differently from each other.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MyDoppelganger wrote: What does your boarding action squad look like? Currently weighing up my options. It looks like a fun game mode!
MA Big Mek with Tellyporta Blasta 5 Nobz with PK 3 MANz with PK 5 Flash Gits 8+2 Burnas (split into 5 burnas and 3+2 Spannaz)
- Pretty much all our characters suck in boarding actions, that's why I go for the MA Big Mek. He usually provides cover fire for other units and generally acts as annoyingly durable action monkey. None of the enhancement are great, tellyporta is probably the best one to either grab an objective early or block hatches. His T6 means T3 armies like eldar, guardsmen or sisters will seriously struggle to get past a door he is holding shut. Deep striking onto a bottleneck hatch can seriously throw a wrench into your opponent's plans. - Nobz easily fight through anything less durable than a terminator, but quickly die afterwards. Make sure to take down something valuable, if there is a long route around enemy fire, this is where your nobz go. - MANz are durable enough to fight most units until the game ends, so make sure to get them into position before they are bogged down. - Flash gits are great for holding larger rooms with or corridors as their overwatch is quite deadly and they almost always shoot the closest target to trigger Gun-crazy Show-offs. - The 5 burnas sit close to objectives for re-rolls and wait for some poor unlucky unit to walk into their overwatch. - The double KMB usually arrives late and then either start shooting stuff if something is visible from an entry point or they run to grab an objective.
Callback to some discussions on over-costed units: I've gotten a few games in with tankbustas and I'm having a lot of fun with them. I play speed freeks (no beast-snagga anything yet) and I've been starting them in a trukk hanging out near my battlewagon, and then using my main push as a bit of a screen. So far they've been handily making their points back and they really feel like a reliable anti-tank/anti-elite choice with the number of shots the squad gets.
I'm going to try dropping a painboy in there at some point to see if I can get more aggressive with them. Anyone here had success with something like that?
FLASHGITZ - golden standard of todays waaagh list (despite non-flashgitz lists obviously also work…).
- How do you use them? Trukk or reserves?
- Where do you position them? Ruins of course! But where? Risky midfield or dominanting the corner midfield objective?
- What surviving rate do you have? Dead after 1 turno on the table or are you able to keep them alive longer?
Tomsug wrote: FLASHGITZ - golden standard of todays waaagh list (despite non-flashgitz lists obviously also work…).
- How do you use them? Trukk or reserves?
- Where do you position them? Ruins of course! But where? Risky midfield or dominanting the corner midfield objective?
- What surviving rate do you have? Dead after 1 turno on the table or are you able to keep them alive longer?
Mine ride around in a truck. Once they actually hit the table they're dead within 1.5 turns usually.
Tomsug wrote: FLASHGITZ - golden standard of todays waaagh list (despite non-flashgitz lists obviously also work…).
- How do you use them? Trukk or reserves?
- Where do you position them? Ruins of course! But where? Risky midfield or dominanting the corner midfield objective?
- What surviving rate do you have? Dead after 1 turno on the table or are you able to keep them alive longer?
Five in a trukk with Badrukk pointed at whatever looks like a threat. So far they've basically just been a trade for me but one I've been happy with.
Turn one poke a couple wounds off something from inside the trukk.
Turn two, pick up a scary enemy unit.
Turn three, soak up slightly more enemy fire than they have a right to and go back into my case.
Got game, saturday, trying out some of the changes and nerfs.
Going against 1500pts CSM. The guy is new but he is learning, want's a challenge.
Will try to see what he can do to a kill rig and a brick of squighogs. With double draggsta and nobz in trucks. Sauros will follow them around and try to mess with anyone giving charge re-rolls to snaggas.
I was considering flashgitz, usually pack 10 with braduck, even inside a truck they cause problems.But decided for lootas to sit on the point, who knows, maybe they will be mvp.
another question : if flashgits are so good, why only one unit and not 3 ? ^^
One of these two reasons I'd think;
1) because they aren't free & there's other important things to spend those pts on.
2) because once you get done building 1 unit of them you've had your fill of thier fiddly little bitz & the thought building another such unit, let alone 2 more.....
no one has try to use Morkanaut now? in what kind of army it could work ? thinking of 2 of them.
thx
another question : if flashgits are so good, why only one unit and not 3 ? ^^
Flashgitz have easy access to full rerolls, sustained 1 and lethal, combined with 3 shots per gun, they have all the ingredients to be successful while able to engage multiple targets of different T and cause heavy damage. I might add that even with out rerolls they might be good as well, haven't tried yet. But it begs the question if its worth spending more pts for another shooting block of 190pts. We are mainly a melee army, and we excel mostly on pressure. So while flashgitz are amazing shooting, movement blocking and scoring win games, it does not matter if you kill the opponent and your outscored. So 1 to handle big threats is mostly good enough, while giving yourself more points for bodies and action monkeys.
Their might be play for mork/gorkanaught if you use them as centre piece. The question is what do you bring in order to provide support as the rest of the army. It won't be amazing but it can surprise some armies which struggle to handle high T. The first thing that comes to mind is mek's, some trucks with bodies to hold points or extra threats.. also you will need possibly a few points reserved to handle secondaries.
no one has try to use Morkanaut now? in what kind of army it could work ? thinking of 2 of them.
thx
I played one yesterday, flanked by two battlewagons and the usual smattering of ork good stuff. The wagons and the naut each had a mek to babysit them.
It did well enough, soaked a ton of fire, blew a hole through a Keeper and took down Be'lakor thanks to Orks is Never Beaten.
Mind you, it still died turn 2 and daemons aren't exactly great at shooting armor from a distance. I wouldn't be too sure whether it would be worth its points against an army with decent ranged anti-tank capabilities like votan or aeldari though.
Tomsug wrote: My guess the new official trick will be put the Mek in Stompa / Naut and let them walk through the terrain.
And than someone come and say “hey that is cool, put him in the Bonebreaker! Or even better - Garg Squig! [/quote
I guarantee that lasts a week before being errata'd if it is the case. My assumption is that it's not "on the board" so it doesn't get to use the rule until disembarked.
Tomsug wrote: My guess the new official trick will be put the Mek in Stompa / Naut and let them walk through the terrain.
And than someone come and say “hey that is cool, put him in the Bonebreaker! Or even better - Garg Squig! [/quote
I guarantee that lasts a week before being errata'd if it is the case. My assumption is that it's not "on the board" so it doesn't get to use the rule until disembarked.
Flying Stompas would be beyond sick though.
Unless there's some as-yet-to-be-seen rule that makes his ride part of his unit? It won't make it even 1 game much less a week & need erratta.
All it takes is for GW make the rule part of the weapon rule, and the mega squig is going to be the one "firing" and it is always part of its own unit of One. And it is not like stupid interactions like that don't exist in w40k already, like the primaris snipers and an impulsor shoting twice.
Dekskull wrote: I just hope my existing Big Mek in Mega Armor isn't phased out...grrr
I don't think we'll have to worry about that unless they replace the meganobz box.
This guy will just be a Big Mek in Mega Mega Armour to add to the pile of characters we have access to. Or a named character with a generic counterpart ala Mozzie.
Seems like the codex and box will be released separately?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Shokk Boosta looks like a special rule, which cant be used when embarked in a transport, and he probably won't be able to lead a vehicle unit. Best we can hope for is a special rule on the stompa to walk over higher terrain, or a strat to smash through it ala chaos knights.
PaddyMick wrote: Seems like the codex and box will be released separately?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Shokk Boosta looks like a special rule, which cant be used when embarked in a transport, and he probably won't be able to lead a vehicle unit. Best we can hope for is a special rule on the stompa to walk over higher terrain, or a strat to smash through it ala chaos knights.
Or it's what it says and GW forgot that in practice everybody plays just ruins and so ability to go through non-ruin terrain isn't particularly relevant.
That would usually make me hope that they can make the Stompa somewhat usable but who am I kidding, the Stompa hasn't been relevant as a fieldable unit since Imperial Armour 8 when you could abuse the weird wording on the kustom stompa rules so you could get free stuff and D weapons. As it is, the Stompa needs to be either severly underpriced or have incredible rules for movement to even get where it needs to do damage on the board (a general super heavy problem that isn't knights).
I'd settle for just adding a Tank Trap keyword to some terrain and letting vehicles of all kinds move over any terrain without TANK TRAP or a couple-few other applicable terrain keywords.
I got bored and have been pondering a dumb "knights" list for some less serious gaming experiences. As you can see, the Stompa is escorted into battle by his Gorkanaut squires, who are themselves assisted by their Deff Dread bagmen. The Meka-Dread is the Stompa's battlefield advisor, who is in turn escorted by his Killa Kan peons.
And the overzealous Mek rides in the Stompa because of course he does.
I am aware I will likely never win a game.
++ Army Roster (Xenos - Orks) [2,000pts] ++
+ Character +
Mek [45pts]: Killsaw, Warlord
+ Vehicle +
Deff Dread [130pts]: 3x Dread klaw, Skorcha
Deff Dread [130pts]: 3x Dread klaw, Skorcha
Gorkanaut [280pts]
Gorkanaut [280pts]
Killa Kans [125pts] . 3x Killa Kan w/ Rokkit launcha: 3x Kan klaw, 3x Rokkit launcha
Was going to pick up my first box of meganobz today and am trying to decide how to build them. Do you folks think the new big mek model is going to replace the big mek in mega armor you can make from that kit? Not sure if it's silly to build that option from the box this close to the new codex coming out.
The option is pretty different, so I wouldn't worry about it.
The weapons on each arm fitt well without glue or magnets, so if you only magnetize the force field you can have all options without any worry about future proofing.
Yeah don't do anything until the codex drops! reckon building 3 meganobz is safe though, they will always have a use. If I were building a kit now i'd do mixed arms and just declare whatever it is the whole squad is armed with in your list.
Given the recent Tau codex, I'm hoping GW doesn't skimp out on detachments for us and gives us at least 6 given how wide our range is for models. I know a Beast Snagga oriented one and a Speed Freek detachment is very likely a given, but I'll never forgive GW if they don't give us a proppa dred mob detachment after all these years.
DakkaHammer wrote: Was going to pick up my first box of meganobz today and am trying to decide how to build them. Do you folks think the new big mek model is going to replace the big mek in mega armor you can make from that kit? Not sure if it's silly to build that option from the box this close to the new codex coming out.
To me, the new big mek doesn't look armored enough to be a MA model, despite many channels claiming so.
That said, if it's literally the first box of meganobz you have and don't plan to build a second one soon, just build 3 MAN from it and keep the weapons unglued. No matter what the new codex will do, 2 MANz by themselves are extremely unlikely to be viable. The only use such a unit could have would be underpriced objective holders (and GW clamps down on those hard in their dataslates) or as attached unit for Thrakka riding a BW (assuming GW doesn't mess up the wording for the third time in a row).
Grimskul wrote: Given the recent Tau codex, I'm hoping GW doesn't skimp out on detachments for us and gives us at least 6 given how wide our range is for models. I know a Beast Snagga oriented one and a Speed Freek detachment is very likely a given, but I'll never forgive GW if they don't give us a proppa dred mob detachment after all these years.
I'd imagine we'll get one that covers each major play style, and some more niche ones:
Melee one
Shooty one
Speedy one
Scouty/movement shenanigans one
Squig/Snagga one
I'd love to get a Dreadwaaagh, or a detachment that lets you take a Stompa as your warlord, but we're probably going to get something like a "Mek Workshops Only" one instead.
+ there are some first rumours what can we expect from the codex. The only relevant and crucial fact from the rumor is this = there will be a walker detachement! Kans and dreads goes and stompa can see the table guys!
That said, if it's literally the first box of meganobz you have and don't plan to build a second one soon, just build 3 MAN from it and keep the weapons unglued. No matter what the new codex will do, 2 MANz by themselves are extremely unlikely to be viable. The only use such a unit could have would be underpriced objective holders (and GW clamps down on those hard in their dataslates) or as attached unit for Thrakka riding a BW (assuming GW doesn't mess up the wording for the third time in a row).
Fair enough. Yeah a second box is pretty far out on the horizon for me. I do have the Warboss in mega armor but I wasn't sure how much of a difference a single nob in the unit would make vs swapping in a Mek for variety. I usually run a speed freek army with trukks and a battlewagon.
Had a slight lull in my Tomb Kings escapades and managed to get a game in with my Orks. Did some slight tweaking and proxying of a couple of models to test some things. Preferring this at the moment over the previous rendition, and it still fits my squiggy ideals. Main change is dropping the number of characters from about 8 to a more conservative 5.
Warboss and Nobz in a trukk and went steaming down one flank supported by a Squighog mob. Trukk with Beastboss and Snaggas down the other flank with another Squighog mob. Bikerboss with Nob Bikers, Squigosaur, third Squighog mob and the Squiggoth with the other Snaggas went straight down the middle. Deffkoptas and Deff Dread came in from reserves on my own board edge to chase some deep striking Terminators away from my Gretchin, who were holding the fort in my DZ waiting for the faster units to clear the midboard. Weirdboy hid in a ruin and Jumped himself into the enemy DZ to snag some sneaky VP later in the game.
It wasn't an elegant battle plan, but it certainly got the job done. The classic "push everything up your opponents nose turn 1" still seems to be working wonders.
Detachments are War Horde, Da Big Hunt, Kult of Speed, Dread Mob, Green Tide amd Bully Boyz.
Badrukk, Zagstrukk, Grotsnik and the KFF Mek are all gone. Nob on Smasha Squig is also gone, but I'm assuming that's been folded in to the Squighogs datasheet.
Ghaz gets a sweep attack, with 12 attacks at S8 AP-2 D2.
Thraka's usefulness will largely be based on how expensive he still is and if he still takes up like 10 slots in a vehicle. Ideally he can also join Nobz and not just Meganobz but knowing GW, they won't do that. I'm glad the at least finally has a sweep profile, even if Mork's Roar is still a waste of time when it comes to rolling for its attacks.
Pour out a big one for our boy Badrukk though, him and the Flash Git hit squad were the best dakka infantry unit we've had in our army for a long time. Unless they mix up Flash Gitz a bit, that'll be a big blow to our ranged options. Also sad to see Zagstruk go even if he wasn't great, and I feel like this was a missed opportunity for Mad Dok Grotsnik to finally get a plastic update but dems the breaks.
So do we think that the Waagh army rule will be altered to allow for the in built 5++ for the Green Tide detachment? Maybe only the strength and attack bonus now?
No idea how the Waagh should work.
No idea what the War Horde should be neither. I supposed there should be more than just another boyz in trukks.. “same units, different rules”. There should be a difference in the seting. But honestly no idea which one. Maybe all-units-wide set of rules in the spirit “take anything and that' s what you get.” ?
See the Speedfreak detsch gives the bonus to TRUKKs too, so there is a space for Boyz in Trukks already
Anyway..
DREAD MOB! seems to be fun shooting self explodeing slow walking detachement. See the keyword GROT VEHICLES? Say hallo to Mek Gunz and hopefully Grot tanks etc too!
These detachment rules are quite silly and it makes me think the rest of the dex is gonna be a bit poopy or they'll be quite restrictive in unit comp.
I wonder if perma 5++ is their consolation prize for big mek w/ kff going poof.
Really don't care for this codex game design, it's all gonna go away in a year or get heavily reshuffled in the next outing. But at least it's a better bandaid than the waaagh rules change was and an acknowledgement that the power creep left Boyz behind.
Bigger shells for bigger gitz sounds badly worded to me.
So I get +1 damage against anything but +1 to wound only against monsters and vehicles, right?
Bully Boys looks like it gets extra Waaaghs for your units, like if each had a Waaagh Banner
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Bigger shells for bigger gitz sounds badly worded to me.
So I get +1 damage against anything but +1 to wound only against monsters and vehicles, right?
Yeah, it's pretty poorly worded but that's how I'm reading it too.
Those two words at the end - 'as well' - make it clear what they mean I think. I don't think I would try and argue for +1 damage to anything except a monster or vehicle, personally.
TedNugent wrote: These detachment rules are quite silly and it makes me think the rest of the dex is gonna be a bit poopy or they'll be quite restrictive in unit comp.
I wonder if perma 5++ is their consolation prize for big mek w/ kff going poof.
Really don't care for this codex game design, it's all gonna go away in a year or get heavily reshuffled in the next outing. But at least it's a better bandaid than the waaagh rules change was and an acknowledgement that the power creep left Boyz behind.
Whatever happened to making the codexes not hard back and cheaper? So much for that one.
Not much incentive for casual players to buy a codex though
never made sense in buying the dex for new rules. I bough last one for art/lore alone and inspiration.
As for rules i get from other tools. We live in a tech days i rarely open the book to check rules, have apps and other stuff to cover that.
Hell i could run digital dice if i wanted.
Anyway back on topic, actually excited to check new detachs. I really want to make dread mob, green tide and speedy orks. Just sad hearing all the gutted models and no shooty detach.
I doubt we will be seeing lootas with meks with dread mobs. Lootas outside of transports will get them killed instantly, and they dont have "Mek" keyword when firing from inside a transport as it uses the vehicles keywords, not theirs.
So at least Burna boys and lootas wont be cruising around and shooting with the Dread Mob rules i think..
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Bigger shells for bigger gitz sounds badly worded to me.
So I get +1 damage against anything but +1 to wound only against monsters and vehicles, right?
Doubt it. Im pretty sure you are meant to get +1 damage also only against monsters and vehicles.
I agree its worded a bit oddly but it does say "That attack" before explaining the +1 damage part, indicating that it refers to "that attack" you use to attack vehicles and monsters with. I could be wrong of course, but if i was a TOid probably rule that you only got it versus monster/vehicles.
The way I'm reading it is that when you "push it" you get +1 damage in exchange for Hazardous. If you target a vehicle or monster, you get an additional +1 to wound.
So it would be a good generic damage increase stratagem, with a bonus if used to kills tanks/monsters.
I might be wrong, but the way it's written seems to me like a deliberate separation of two effects rather than one.
This also lines up with the activation requirement not being something like "when you target an enemy vehicle or monster for an attack".
Afrodactyl wrote: The way I'm reading it is that when you "push it" you get +1 damage in exchange for Hazardous. If you target a vehicle or monster, you get an additional +1 to wound.
So it would be a good generic damage increase stratagem, with a bonus if used to kills tanks/monsters.
I might be wrong, but the way it's written seems to me like a deliberate separation of two effects rather than one.
This also lines up with the activation requirement not being something like "when you target an enemy vehicle or monster for an attack".
But they start by specifically stating that you use this stratagem to get +1 to wound vs monsters and vehicles. and then "that attack" gets +1 damage if you push it. I focus more on the "that attack" referering to the one used versus monsters and vehicles. I feel like there wasnt any seperation between the two sentences at all, and if they wanted you to just get +1 damage in general, there were a lot of other ways they could have clarified it.
But its true i guess they could specify that it has to be used versus monsters or vehicles in the "Target" descirption, which they didnt.
I mean i hope im wrong, id like to be able to just throw +1 damage on to big shootas and such without caring about my target.
I'm just glad there's any rules at all for Dred Mobz considering how shafted they were for rules the past couple of editions. Curious to see what the enhancements will be and it might be the de-facto "dakka" detachment since it doesn't look like we have any other ones for our shooting units.
Beardedragon wrote: I doubt we will be seeing lootas with meks with dread mobs. Lootas outside of transports will get them killed instantly, and they dont have "Mek" keyword when firing from inside a transport as it uses the vehicles keywords, not theirs.
So at least Burna boys and lootas wont be cruising around and shooting with the Dread Mob rules i think..
Pretty sure the unit inherits the leader's keys words and vice versa, so any unit that can be lead by a mek inherits the mek keword. Plus their dirt cheap for 50pts 5models.
No reason to bring them in a wagon.
I think it depends if there's any broken strats like the Canoptek Court had to generate mortal wounds, because there they ended up changing the wording from "unit" to models so they couldn't have Crypteks make a wombo combo of rerolling hits to fish for 6's for their Tesla Immortals in the unit, so we'll see for ours.
Beardedragon wrote: I doubt we will be seeing lootas with meks with dread mobs. Lootas outside of transports will get them killed instantly, and they dont have "Mek" keyword when firing from inside a transport as it uses the vehicles keywords, not theirs.
So at least Burna boys and lootas wont be cruising around and shooting with the Dread Mob rules i think..
Pretty sure the unit inherits the leader's keys words and vice versa, so any unit that can be lead by a mek inherits the mek keword. Plus their dirt cheap for 50pts 5models. No reason to bring them in a wagon.
Being wrong that's less a combo.
I know that but thats not what i said.
I said that a unit of lootas with a mek, wont get the dread mob bonus when firing from inside a vehicle. Because with the firing deck rule its the vehicle shooting, not the unit inside. And the vehicle shooting with their guns, dont have the Mek keyword.
Even if they have it, the vehicle does not, so it does not benefit from the Dread Mob rule. The unit of lootas with a mek would have to jump out, to get the dread mob bonus. Thats why i call Lootas with a mek or even burna boys with a mek, less useful as they cant cruise around and shoot, while retaining their dread mob ability.
Unless i have misunderstood that when firing with firing deck, the vehicle actually somehow gets all the keywords of those inside of it. Which i dont recall that they do.
Reddit posted the hunt is on detachment, it's reroll charge and -1 AP against a monster or vehicle, basically oath of moment except only for beast snaggas.
These detachments are terrible, it's literally only bonuses for one type of unit.
I really, really dislike this kind of all of nothing inflexible game design encouraging you to use one type of unit. It's just crummy design.
The speed waaagh at least seems more flexible in the sense that you can put anything in a truck and there is a lot of variety with buggies.
I actually quite like the Snagga detachment as it sures up the two main weaknesses of that portion of the book: failing charges, and lack of AP against the vehicles they're meant to be hunting.
It turns Squighogs from a legitimate threat to vehicles to a unit your opponent has to get rid of ASAP.
Also, you get the bonuses against enemy warlords, and their characters (if they don't have monsters or vehicles).
It's not an amazing detachment ability, but I'd much rather have this than exploding 6s (granted, my list is predominantly Snaggas).
Beardedragon wrote: Not sure i like squiggosaur bosses running with squighog boys, given that squighogs have toughness 7 and the bosses have toughness 10.
I hate it when their bodyguards have lower toughness.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the Squigosaur got knocked down to T7. I'm hoping it won't, but I'm mentally preparing for it.
Wouldn't you just be able to screen the "prey" target to deny rerolls to charge?
Seems fairly easy to work around, the bigger issue is that it only affects snaggas.
I'm still more interested in seeing the horde detachment at this point because it's likely the only generalist detachment that would allow you to take more than 1-5 datasheet that benefit from the rule.
Beardedragon wrote: I doubt we will be seeing lootas with meks with dread mobs. Lootas outside of transports will get them killed instantly, and they dont have "Mek" keyword when firing from inside a transport as it uses the vehicles keywords, not theirs.
So at least Burna boys and lootas wont be cruising around and shooting with the Dread Mob rules i think..
Pretty sure the unit inherits the leader's keys words and vice versa, so any unit that can be lead by a mek inherits the mek keword. Plus their dirt cheap for 50pts 5models.
No reason to bring them in a wagon.
Being wrong that's less a combo.
I know that but thats not what i said.
I said that a unit of lootas with a mek, wont get the dread mob bonus when firing from inside a vehicle. Because with the firing deck rule its the vehicle shooting, not the unit inside. And the vehicle shooting with their guns, dont have the Mek keyword.
Even if they have it, the vehicle does not, so it does not benefit from the Dread Mob rule. The unit of lootas with a mek would have to jump out, to get the dread mob bonus. Thats why i call Lootas with a mek or even burna boys with a mek, less useful as they cant cruise around and shoot, while retaining their dread mob ability.
Unless i have misunderstood that when firing with firing deck, the vehicle actually somehow gets all the keywords of those inside of it. Which i dont recall that they do.
Sry maybe i wrote incorrectly but my intention was saying lootas look good in dread mob actually. Their cheap with 48 inch range with acess to full rerolls and sustained or lethals.
But your better of with them on foot, besides with that range they don't need to move. 2 to 3 groupa of 100pts with mek would do a lot of good work while sitting on a building for plunging fire. That's my take.
Beardedragon wrote: I doubt we will be seeing lootas with meks with dread mobs. Lootas outside of transports will get them killed instantly, and they dont have "Mek" keyword when firing from inside a transport as it uses the vehicles keywords, not theirs.
So at least Burna boys and lootas wont be cruising around and shooting with the Dread Mob rules i think..
Pretty sure the unit inherits the leader's keys words and vice versa, so any unit that can be lead by a mek inherits the mek keword. Plus their dirt cheap for 50pts 5models. No reason to bring them in a wagon.
Being wrong that's less a combo.
I know that but thats not what i said.
I said that a unit of lootas with a mek, wont get the dread mob bonus when firing from inside a vehicle. Because with the firing deck rule its the vehicle shooting, not the unit inside. And the vehicle shooting with their guns, dont have the Mek keyword.
Even if they have it, the vehicle does not, so it does not benefit from the Dread Mob rule. The unit of lootas with a mek would have to jump out, to get the dread mob bonus. Thats why i call Lootas with a mek or even burna boys with a mek, less useful as they cant cruise around and shoot, while retaining their dread mob ability.
Unless i have misunderstood that when firing with firing deck, the vehicle actually somehow gets all the keywords of those inside of it. Which i dont recall that they do.
Sry maybe i wrote incorrectly but my intention was saying lootas look good in dread mob actually. Their cheap with 48 inch range with acess to full rerolls and sustained or lethals. But your better of with them on foot, besides with that range they don't need to move. 2 to 3 groupa of 100pts with mek would do a lot of good work while sitting on a building for plunging fire. That's my take.
Lootas have full reroll to hit if they stand on an objective that is true, but they only have 2 shots each anyway. If you are within rapid fire range you are also close enough to be shot at, at which, they will vaporize instantly. I havent really been using lootas in 10th, but i havent been impressed with their cost/rules/stats as it stands. Still not sure if i wanna call them either cheap nor good. Hitting on 6s normally, so 5s if you stand completely still. They have AP1 only with damage 2. Many tournaments uses flat L ruins so no plunging fire for them if you wanted to rely on that. They dont have any form of durbility to really survive any shots directed at them and if you throw in a mek, suddenly they are not cheap anymore.
But we will have to see what the rest of the codex brings. Over all Lootas dont seem worth it without heft changes.
I still find them bad though, but as i said, maybe the codex does something for them.
If you place a Mek with them the price is suddenly 145 points for a unit i already found.. Questionable without a character in it, for the price of a 100 points.
I think the problem i have with Lootas is, anything they are designed to kill, i can just kill with either boyz or beast snagga boys or something else around the same price range.
TedNugent wrote: Wouldn't you just be able to screen the "prey" target to deny rerolls to charge?
Seems fairly easy to work around, the bigger issue is that it only affects snaggas.
I'm still more interested in seeing the horde detachment at this point because it's likely the only generalist detachment that would allow you to take more than 1-5 datasheet that benefit from the rule.
Realistically you just select something that they can't screen. If you play intelligently I can't see why you couldn't get the benefits of this on every turn from T2 onwards.
But also, it has a weakness in the sense that you can screen against it. So it's strong but encourages counterplay from your opponent. Good and balanced IMO. It also works with ranged weapons from Snaggas, so Stikkas get a buff there.
Im not sure i really like the Big Hunt detatchment. Its a watered down oath of moment that only works on specific targets, and since beast snaggas are a melee force and not a ranged force, this becomes even less useful. Everyone in your army, in a shooting army, that has full reroll to hit is miles better, than 2 units (given ork sizes) being able to reroll charges and get +1 to their AP in melee. I say two units because against one target, thats all you can reliably fit in. The rest of your army is essentially detatchmentless.
But even so i could see the usability of this detatchment rule, and it sounds pretty good, IF you could just pick your own target as you please. Its kinda annoying you have to be restricted to vehicle, monster or warlord (or character if none of the above is present). Not sure, maybe im just a naysayer. I just dont understand why i have to be restricted like that.
On another note, to make room for this reroll charge part of the detatchment rule, and squiggosaur bosses being part of squighogs now, I can only assume that the reroll charge aura they used to have, is now gone. Because if the squiggosaur boss still has this, then the reroll charges versus one target is even less relevant lol.
I still find them bad though, but as i said, maybe the codex does something for them.
If you place a Mek with them the price is suddenly 145 points for a unit i already found.. Questionable without a character in it, for the price of a 100 points.
I think the problem i have with Lootas is, anything they are designed to kill, i can just kill with either boyz or beast snagga boys or something else around the same price range.
Dunno mate, maybe your approaching this from an angle of looking for a busted combo. They look comparable to flashgitz, sure their not as good but also, they are a lot less expensive and don't need babysitting. We been complaining we don't have decent shooting and this looks as a good compromise, couple this with dreads, kans, mek guns a gorka or 2 and you got a pretty nice detach. Does not feel busted but looks interesting and fun to play.
Hey, maybe the issue is me that just want's some variety on my orks. Honestly salivating at that green tide, even though i do not have near enough to make a list, it looks like a hell of bricks can be made with warboss and painboy, that was my ork wish. Never ending wave of bodies to annoy and drown my opponent.
I also feel like big hunt detach is a missed opportunity, too much counter play... unless squighogs change drastically or cost comes down, their the first victims of the codex. Funny cause their some of newest models, i also find them cool.
Remains to be seen what will happen to the boss on squigsaur or Mozrog... It might be that they will go into the shelves. Ghaz is looking good but cost will dictate the end result.
I still find them bad though, but as i said, maybe the codex does something for them.
If you place a Mek with them the price is suddenly 145 points for a unit i already found.. Questionable without a character in it, for the price of a 100 points.
I think the problem i have with Lootas is, anything they are designed to kill, i can just kill with either boyz or beast snagga boys or something else around the same price range.
Dunno mate, maybe your approaching this from an angle of looking for a busted combo. They look comparable to flashgitz, sure their not as good but also, they are a lot less expensive and don't need babysitting. We been complaining we don't have decent shooting and this looks as a good compromise, couple this with dreads, kans, mek guns a gorka or 2 and you got a pretty nice detach. Does not feel busted but looks interesting and fun to play.
Hey, maybe the issue is me that just want's some variety on my orks. Honestly salivating at that green tide, even though i do not have near enough to make a list, it looks like a hell of bricks can be made with warboss and painboy, that was my ork wish. Never ending wave of bodies to annoy and drown my opponent.
I also feel like big hunt detach is a missed opportunity, too much counter play... unless squighogs change drastically or cost comes down, their the first victims of the codex. Funny cause their some of newest models, i also find them cool.
Remains to be seen what will happen to the boss on squigsaur or Mozrog... It might be that they will go into the shelves. Ghaz is looking good but cost will dictate the end result.
Holy hell this ended up as a long rant. this was not the intention. If you dont read all this im not complaining at all . I need to trim some of the text down. Christ i hate it when this happens.
The Lootas though, hits on 6s, and if you want to actually hit on 5s, you need to have somehow survived standing out in the open for an entire round, on a boys save value. Most tournament have the majority of objectives behind some kind of cover so odds are, given how stationary lootas are, you wont be rerolling all your hit rolls, because your target is not visible, so you have to shoot something else.
Rerolling the entire roll when they are on an objective sounds great on paper, but on an immobile unit thats pretty easy to counter. Sure on those maps where there is an objective directly in the open with no cover to be had they will be really good. I just dont see that very often at tournaments.
If you have 10 dudes at 100 points, thats 16 deff gun shots (if you indeed fire from long distances so you dont get rapid fire) hitting on 6s rerolling 1s. Thats going to net you like 3-4 hits or something. Str 8 means wounds on 2s out of your 4 hits so you might miss wounding one out of 4. AP1 essentially means AP0 so space marines save that on 3s. You will possibly kill 1 space marine this way. Then depending on whether you go for suicide kustom mega blastas that will kill your spanners or plain rockets, you might kill 2 more space marines for a total of 3. Say you brought mega blastas you might kill a total of 4 or something. This isnt dedicated math just a rough sketch. And it dont seem that great to me.
It seems like, for what Lootas want to kill, there are other things in our rooster doing it better. To be fair, it annoys me that Lootas have strength 8, i wanted them to have strength 12 to be Las cannons. But they are not. That way at least they would be very different from Flash Gitz, which they currently are not. They are just out gunned, even point for point, by Flash Gitz.
My point simply is, that Lootas have been.. Not great, in 10th edition and have seen basically no spots on competitive lists, and unless some things change around them i doubt that Dread Mob will make any difference because you have to pay 45 extra points just to get the rule. Which makes them better, but also more expensive. I can easily be wrong about that prediction, be wrong about how much of an impact it is to have the dread mob rule for 45 extra points. But Lootas right now arent great, are they great when you pay 45 extra points for them? Or did you put them from bad, to just average?
Like, i dont think Mek Gunz are considered Grots Vehicles because, they lack the keyword. So if they dont get Grots Vehicle Keyword in the new codex, i would probably put my Mek to lead Mek Gunz, rather than lootas so that THEY can benefit from the Dread Mob rule. In the end, we can only put 3 Meks in to the army, so we gotta put them where it makes a difference.
Despite everything, i WILL be trying out Lootas with a Mek because i want to test out things for myself before putting it in the grave. But im not really impressed with 145 point lootas. And maybe Meks with Lootas really just add up all the other damage you will be dealing with the Dread Mob, making them good. Because of pure saturation fire.
Big Hunt seems to be low card. Absolutely agree. Too situational.
Last 3 detachements we havent see are the Speed Freaks, Bully Boyz and the first one… what was the name?
Dread Mob could be interesting. Depends on datasheets and price tags heavily of course. Could be great.
Green tide also makes sence.
Big Hunt do not…
Dear Mork and Gork, I was very kind nasty warboss, please, bring me the Speed freak rules that allows me to play the buggies and bikers again! Please, please please!
I'm remaining (maybe naively) optimistic about the Snagga detachment. Between Snagga Boys in trukks and the hogs, the bulk of the army should be great enough to limit movement based counter play. The Prey mechanic is situational, but how many lists are out there at the moment that aren't featuring a bunch of vehicles, monsters, or characters? These are all things we generally want to be getting rid of quickly anyway and the detachment rule helps that with the AP boost.
I am keen to find out more about the other detachments though, especially Bully Boyz.
Think of what you're losing for going for the hunt, though....
Perhaps the strategems which mention prey targets will provide significantly higher value for the formation.
But if there is a generalist detachment (even something like sustained hits 1 as it is currently) that is significant output, statistically .5 attacks average for every 3 attacks. It's literally 1/6 higher output for every close combat unit in the army, and against all targets, not just "prey."
I am more interested in the general horde detachment for that reason, on top of applying to any list without shoehorning.
And even speed waaagh already affects trukks, so anything in a truck will get the benefit, so nobs, meganobz, Boyz, snaggas, gits, burnas, whatever you like gets to ride in a truck with a 4++.
Your snagga boys in a truck wouldn't get that either compared to the other detachment.
What is a reroll to charge against a single target really going to get you in terms of mobility and guaranteed charge range? How are you going to reach that target on each side of the board?
What if your "prey" is in a corner, opposite the board from half your deployment?
I'll reach it the same way I reach out now, by moving hogs and trukks forward aggressively. The detachment ability will just mean that I don't have to burn the CP I'd be spending on Ere We Go to otherwise make sure that charge goes off.
The Snagga Boys are only in the trukk until they can charge something, so they aren't going to be in the trukk the whole game anyway.
And as far as where the prey is? I get to choose what the Prey is. I'm only choosing something on the opposite end of the board if I have no alternative. Plus, everything I'm running basically has a movement of at least 10", so mobility isn't an issue.
I don't mind losing out on 1 extra attack per 6, because I'm gaining AP against the thing I already really want dead because I've put Ork Oath of Moment on it. The AP is what Orks desperately need, we have plenty of attacks already (killsaw nobs excluded).
What we've seen of Hunt strats is MWs on the charge for mounted units with extra against Prey, and sustained hits in melee with crits on 5s against Prey.
Don't get me wrong the detachment rule isn't crazy powerful, but it is still strong. It's not a big deal for me if I try it out and it turns out that another detachment is better, because I can just change over. I'm just saying that insurance that you're going to absolutely pulp that vehicle, monster, or warlord that's causing me headaches is good.
I get where you're coming from, but I think you're focusing too much on potential negatives when we haven't got all of the rules yet. I'll gladly come back and tell you you were right if I do change over
Beardragon, hopeful they open up the mek key word in other characters.
I am not against the math, i already tested them currently and it is as you say. But the added key word and range might push it over the edge. Flashgitz want to hit on 6 too, and inside a truck you get no rerolls. Their both swingy. Ones just have the keywords the other is missing. this might even the playing field and make lootas viable. Like you i am going to test it out.
Also flashgitz + Barduk +truck = 335pts
After looking at leaks, bully double waagh detach is looking amazing too.
I still remain unconvinced on big hunter, although leaks speak of good changes. Hoping they go down in points.
Big hunt looks much more tasty with the scout move etc. 9 riders big blob T1 something like 5” charge sounds brutal. Flipcoing tactics however, who goes first wins…
Forceride wrote: Beardragon, hopeful they open up the mek key word in other characters.
I am not against the math, i already tested them currently and it is as you say. But the added key word and range might push it over the edge. Flashgitz want to hit on 6 too, and inside a truck you get no rerolls. Their both swingy. Ones just have the keywords the other is missing. this might even the playing field and make lootas viable. Like you i am going to test it out.
Also flashgitz + Barduk +truck = 335pts
After looking at leaks, bully double waagh detach is looking amazing too.
I still remain unconvinced on big hunter, although leaks speak of good changes. Hoping they go down in points.
I wonder what happens to flash Gitz though with Badrukk being gone.
Maybe they just get a reroll on their own? maybe the unit stays the same?
No idea. I could see a purpose in Lootas in a dread mob over flash gitz if nothing is done at least. Given that flash gitz are only really amazing because of Badrukk, who now isnt there :/
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forceride wrote: Just recalled shoota boys can also get mek? Maybe a resurgence of that weapon? About time frankly ...
Now that seems interesting. I cant remember if they can or not though. But if they can, hell that might make them interesting too.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Holy god damn jesus. The Auspex tactics leaks for Dread Mob looks insane.
For 1 CP if you push it, you get full reroll to hits? And can even be used on a stompa since it has walkers keyword. Couple that with the other buffs or even just put it on a normal Gorkanaut.
Some of these stratagems are really damn good, but of course you also risk killing yourself in the process and all. But they sound really damn hilarious!
And Da big hunt has Scout 9 on an enhancement for a unit of your squighogs? Sound really good. And the Bully boys also look interesting. And the swarm detatchment that i forgot the name of. This actually look really effing cool, not gonna lie. I just made a 180 turn on my feelings on the codex
Should be the app and I think sometimes on the War Con community page for downloads, though I'm wary that they'll use this as a chance to legends most of the models instead.
Pretty excited for this one, but its always weird trying to make an army out of large, inexpensive models. Assault Ramp Nobz seems amazing and probably a big bike squad, but after that I start to struggle with what I should take.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Is it me or dakkajet just became viable in speed freaks.
Kult of speed seems to be unbelievable piece of .. squig?
What the hack?
Some interesting tricks are there but the datasheets seems to be the same. So every single buggy is an expensive junk. Winners of the the “the most $$$ list” competititon? Such dakka could be worth 50p per buggy. But even with the price tags around 100p you was hardly able to get them in the deployment zone. So no chance a price tag can fix it.
Or do I miss something? And yes, I saw the strategems you can use ON ONE SINGLE UNIT so either single bloody buggy or one 3-buggies unit that is almost impossible to move around the table.
And the most interesting tricks seems to be the assault ramp for transports that are not even the Speed freaks. So yes, great, I can T1 charge ghazzy with MANz from BW in KULT OF SPEED detachement?
Very sad exhaust noises….
That really spoiled me the evening. Hell…..
Automatically Appended Next Post: I 'm so sad guys… sipping third beer, looking for tomorrow to get my new motorbike and now this….
Aaargh….
Automatically Appended Next Post: And the whole point of getting buggies to 9” range is what? With their squiggy CC and defence profiles? The whole point od Speed freaks was to spread around the table, keep the distance and shoot. And have some crazy moving tricks.
With such rules, you get to 9”, shoot, kill notihing with the not-enough-dakka profiles, get charged and dies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok, finaly a time to build a cabinet for the models and stompa to be on the top…
I think for kult of speed to be good, it largely depends on the buggies. If they are just transported with no changes to the new codex as they are now, you take underwhelming buggies and make them potentially decent.
But never really great.
So i think there has to be some changes to make buggies better, before Kult of Speed can really shine.
Is my take anyway. Over all decent rules for them though, but a lot of the stratagems will be hitting low cost units, not larger units.
Okay Edit: hadnt watched the last part of the auspex youtube video to see there were no changes to buggies.
I guess thats a bit underwhelming given the profiles are underwhelming. And that makes using stratagems on them a bit.. bad because you get little value. Maybe its still good in the end but it doesnt sound great on paper. Buggies would need serious price reductions to be good but the models are too large to warrent being cheaper, they should have simply been better.
I dont have any other faction that has assault ramps to riddle me this: You dont get to move after disembarking do you? Just transport moves, you disembark and can charge? Auspex tactics said that battlewagon with hard hitters seemed pretty auto include with assault ramps and im unsure why.
A battlewagon moves 10 inches, you get out within 3 which essentially gives you 13 inch movement on a bunch of boys or nobz. If you jumped out of the battlewagon, during the waaagh round, you would move 6 inches +3 from the disembark, and then advance an average of 3-4 inches, which gets you roughly the same distance in movement, of 13-14 inches? You have a chance to roll lower of course, but you also can roll higher and move even further.
Definitely need to split the new thread into five different ones for all the different exclusive detachments with keyword rules for strategems and detachment rules.
If they end up being terrible rules, you could always do a "counts as" army with the 1kSons list. Just shout Waaaaagggghhh!!!! a lot and hope no-one notices.
3xWinged DPs (They're your warboss buggies, with tellyportas and rokkit jump jetz. Your bosses krump in melee how you want, and one more than most with arcane vortex. One might have a weirdboy)
3x Tzaangor Shaman
(They're your nobz on warbikes. Get a mega-blasta, a decent choppa, and one gets a tellyporta crystal. +1 on all shooting or attacks, 5+FNP. They're 2+ tohit, the rest of the ladz are 3+ and get a 5+FNP. Works goodz. Waaaghhh!!)
3x Vortex Beasts
(They're your big mek battlewagons, with Destructo projektas, kustom shields and killiersaws)
3x Forgefiends
(They're your looted tanks, or killier kans/ deff dreadz, with extra guns attached and bionic'd Orks in them. Could just use predators if you want other sorts of looted tanks, but these are more mekked up)
3x6 Tzaangor Enlightened
(They're your warbikes, with decent movement and murder dakka. Slide turns and nitro fly jumps too. You could add Divining Spears (+lance) or basic Chainswords and pistols to the mix if you wanted a bit of melee, but 2x s5 -1ap d2 lethal precision hits at 3+BS with the shamans is good enough. 5+/6++/5+++, 2W works well. Not tough, but not bad. Approximately a 4+ward or occasionally better as standard. Waaaaagghh! Dakka dakka dakka!!!)
A few enhancements, an extra backup teleport, and enough magic for some waaaagh movement or super mek weapons (Doombolt or no saves).
No real strategem support, but "Gork saved the Warboss!" (0-damage once per game), "Morks blessing" (command reroll), "Mekz death" (using Overwatch on a Vortex Beast heavy-flamer mode), and +1 magic "waaaghhh strategem" each turn shouldn't feel too bad. So, like, 2 fairly consequential stratagems per turn, every turn. Not too bad.
Would it work better than the orky version? Probably not. But if your buggies and bikes end up being bad, you can always "upgrade" them to this every once in a while, if you want a proper shooty mek'y/ vehicle army. I'm hoping the detachment is good though. I've been looking for an excuse to start collecting Orks.
TedNugent wrote: Definitely need to split the new thread into five different ones for all the different exclusive detachments with keyword rules for strategems and detachment rules.
Not one big waaagh family any more
More like an extended family at this point, like all those distant relatives that come out of the woodwork for weddings
They know where the place is, not our fault they stay at a distance.
Hmmm, i don't know, i feel worst about big hunt one. I think there is game there.. but buggies need to be cheaper. The move and advance and shot will allow to keep distance and pelt while giving options to re-engage, you will likely be playing eldar style of game.
The jury will be out but assault ramp speedfreaks will scare a few opponents.
Honestly just happy we are receiving lethal keyword in a lot of stuff, specially for shooting and max attacks. Honestly think we will be fine.
Keep in mind that he is not an ork player at all - so while he is very thorough, he tends to miss a thing or two and his tactical advice is questionable.
Yep, Orks are definitely better at it than TSons, point for point. I swear, after looking at my "counts as" lazy attempt at Evil Sunz/ Speed Freaks/ Kult of Speed, like wow. Orks have soooooo many options, that I'm a bit jealous. I'm scared that our 1kSons codex will be a nerf codex, and geez I'd love that sort of unit variety (like, actual other troop roles, and rules to back them). BS3+ is a thing, but so is having 2x as much of a thing at 5+ (and extra stuff).
Got a 2000pt army done for 2xStarter Set boxes and a Rhino with Thousand Sons, and I'll probably grab a few more bits and pieces in the future. But it might be time to start a real army. The future is Waaaaagggghhh!!!!
(Still, it's nice to know there's an actual dakka list available for Evil Sunz, even if there's "probably close enough" base size issues with it. With virtually everything already having a 5++, some just a 6++/5+++, and your only usable strats being basics or epics, magic is just your 1-"free"-per-turn thingo. Start strong in shooting, or move considerably quicker, depending on enhancements. Meh, it still works. Every "vehicle" you have has tonnes of kustom mek stuff. And BS3+ is nice, and fairly tough stuff helps not lose it quite as quickly. Like, there's more tanks to loot out of TSons if you want. Lol)
But that means at worst being wounded on a 4 to anything between str 5-9. Plus they have more opportunity for a 5++ from either being in a Green tide detachment or the extra Waaagh from being in the Bully Boyz detachment
I actually think the more appealing thing now is the warboss' +4 attacks for 2 turns, and the rerolls to hit strategems on power klaws and killsaws.
Meganobz also get 4+++ FNP on waaagh turn.
The -1 to wound on S6+ is just a bonus.
There's also an armor of contempt strat and a -1 to wound general waaagh strat that I think they would still have access to.
I'm just curious now about Ghaz waaagh rule being triggered twice.
The downside is if you take regular detachment, nobs got nerfed a bit. Not sure if that detachment gained much of anything at all, but a lot of removed datasheets and strats that it can't even use.
Probably going to be an easy meta for green tide and bully boys, until they nerfhammer.
Or do I miss something? And yes, I saw the strategems you can use ON ONE SINGLE UNIT so either single bloody buggy or one 3-buggies unit that is almost impossible to move around the table.
3 buggy units don't exist anymore. You only get single buggies. The lack of good targets for the strategems is definitely what will be holding this detachment back.
I dont have any other faction that has assault ramps to riddle me this:
You dont get to move after disembarking do you? Just transport moves, you disembark and can charge? Auspex tactics said that battlewagon with hard hitters seemed pretty auto include with assault ramps and im unsure why.
A battlewagon moves 10 inches, you get out within 3 which essentially gives you 13 inch movement on a bunch of boys or nobz.
If you jumped out of the battlewagon, during the waaagh round, you would move 6 inches +3 from the disembark, and then advance an average of 3-4 inches, which gets you roughly the same distance in movement, of 13-14 inches? You have a chance to roll lower of course, but you also can roll higher and move even further.
I think the 12" move on a trukk full of Nobz is a lot more appealing than the Battlewagon personally.
TedNugent wrote: I actually think the more appealing thing now is the warboss' +4 attacks for 2 turns, and the rerolls to hit strategems on power klaws and killsaws.
Meganobz also get 4+++ FNP on waaagh turn.
The -1 to wound on S6+ is just a bonus.
There's also an armor of contempt strat and a -1 to wound general waaagh strat that I think they would still have access to.
I'm just curious now about Ghaz waaagh rule being triggered twice.
The downside is if you take regular detachment, nobs got nerfed a bit. Not sure if that detachment gained much of anything at all, but a lot of removed datasheets and strats that it can't even use.
Probably going to be an easy meta for green tide and bully boys, until they nerfhammer.
Doesn’t this also mean two rounds of devastating wounds on MANZ in the Bully Boys detachment?
TedNugent wrote: I actually think the more appealing thing now is the warboss' +4 attacks for 2 turns, and the rerolls to hit strategems on power klaws and killsaws.
Meganobz also get 4+++ FNP on waaagh turn.
The -1 to wound on S6+ is just a bonus.
There's also an armor of contempt strat and a -1 to wound general waaagh strat that I think they would still have access to.
I'm just curious now about Ghaz waaagh rule being triggered twice.
The downside is if you take regular detachment, nobs got nerfed a bit. Not sure if that detachment gained much of anything at all, but a lot of removed datasheets and strats that it can't even use.
Probably going to be an easy meta for green tide and bully boys, until they nerfhammer.
Doesn’t this also mean two rounds of devastating wounds on MANZ in the Bully Boys detachment?
The devastating wounds was changed to give a 4+++ on the Waagh turn. Unless there is another source of devastating wounds i cant remember.
Doesn’t this also mean two rounds of devastating wounds on MANZ in the Bully Boys detachment?
I feel like 4+ FNP is more functionally useful than the devastating wounds generally speaking, since it ties into meganobz being more tanky and getting models brought back by the Big Mek in MA. If anything, the Warboss in MA should have given the devastating wounds ability during a WAAAGH! instead of getting 3 damage on a WAAAGH!, but overall I'm pretty happy with the Bully Boyz detachment and most of what we got. I know the Golden Bois are very salty with how well we got by with our codex release.
Bully Boyz does seem the most ideal for Ghaz since he can double dip on the WAAAGH! to get really where he needs to, and the good thing about him being infantry with the Meganobz means he can go through buildings. Will have to try it out to see if its viable or not.
Grimskul wrote: I feel like 4+ FNP is more functionally useful than the devastating wounds generally speaking, since it ties into meganobz being more tanky and getting models brought back by the Big Mek in MA. If anything, the Warboss in MA should have given the devastating wounds ability during a WAAAGH! instead of getting 3 damage on a WAAAGH!, but overall I'm pretty happy with the Bully Boyz detachment and most of what we got. I know the Golden Bois are very salty with how well we got by with our codex release.
Where is it changed to them having 4+++? Thought they still had the “Krumpin Time” rule which is where they got devastating wounds. Can’t see anything on the balance dataslate either?
Grimskul wrote: I feel like 4+ FNP is more functionally useful than the devastating wounds generally speaking, since it ties into meganobz being more tanky and getting models brought back by the Big Mek in MA. If anything, the Warboss in MA should have given the devastating wounds ability during a WAAAGH! instead of getting 3 damage on a WAAAGH!, but overall I'm pretty happy with the Bully Boyz detachment and most of what we got. I know the Golden Bois are very salty with how well we got by with our codex release.
Where is it changed to them having 4+++? Thought they still had the “Krumpin Time” rule which is where they got devastating wounds. Can’t see anything on the balance dataslate either?
on the newly shown leaked dataslates.
Warboss in Mega armor gets +1 damage on the waaagh turn making him more offensive, and Mega Nobz get 4+FNP instead of devastating wounds on the waaagh round, making them more defensively.
"As far as the rerolling 1s to save is concerned, on face value for the 5+/5++ on Boyz, the overall increase isn’t very big durability wise (1/18 success rate). However there are some interesting applications when you look at units that have a better save.
Like MANZ (Meganobz for those not in the know). A 2+ save, that rerolls 1s, oooooo boy, better hit them with some AP. But wait, you can’t have a unit of MANZ that is 10 or more…. why are we even considering this? Well there is an enhancement that enables this, which we will get into in the next section.
[...]
Now to touch upon what we briefly discussed in the detachment, Raucous Warcaller, makes it so while this model is leading a unit, they count as having 10 or more models for the detachment rule and stratagem use. So slap this on a Big Mek in mega armour or Warboss in mega armour, throw them in a unit of MANZ, and enjoy the absolute hilarity of a unit that’s functionally immune to anything without AP.."
Never thought of this, interesting
Probably will get patched, lol
But in general at least that enhancement makes it so that a non-boyz unit can benefit in general from at least part of the detachment rule...
Can a Boyz unit with a Wyrdboy use Da Jump out of Strategic reserves? Sounds pretty nice (and ugly) in combo with the Tide of Muscle strat for a +3 to charge on turn 3.
If anyone is interested, i have a PDF version of the codex. I can say the costs that the codex came with. i DONT know if they will make any changes.
According to the new codex, the Stompa is still 800 points.
Dont know if its against the rules, but ill just post a picture of the point costs here. If its illigal then i guess, remove it?
Anyway my take is, that some of this is weird. And seem old. Like, the kill rig is back to 220. Im not sure why. Nobz are also back to pre-nerf prices. So it seems only things that were directly changed in this codex, like squiggosaurs and Mozrog and such, had a changed price. The rest were not updated with the newest price changes.
Beardedragon wrote: If anyone is interested, i have a PDF version of the codex. I can say the costs that the codex came with. i DONT know if they will make any changes.
According to the new codex, the Stompa is still 800 points.
Dont know if its against the rules, but ill just post a picture of the point costs here. If its illigal then i guess, remove it?
Anyway my take is, that some of this is weird. And seem old. Like, the kill rig is back to 220. Im not sure why. Nobz are also back to pre-nerf prices. So it seems only things that were directly changed in this codex, like squiggosaurs and Mozrog and such, had a changed price. The rest were not updated with the newest price changes.
I'm interested
The current way GW works is that those points are essential nonsense and only serve as a placeholder for people who don't use the internet. The real points will be released as a pdf on the launch day.
Beardedragon wrote: If anyone is interested, i have a PDF version of the codex. I can say the costs that the codex came with. i DONT know if they will make any changes.
According to the new codex, the Stompa is still 800 points.
Dont know if its against the rules, but ill just post a picture of the point costs here. If its illigal then i guess, remove it?
Anyway my take is, that some of this is weird. And seem old. Like, the kill rig is back to 220. Im not sure why. Nobz are also back to pre-nerf prices. So it seems only things that were directly changed in this codex, like squiggosaurs and Mozrog and such, had a changed price. The rest were not updated with the newest price changes.
I'm interested
The current way GW works is that those points are essential nonsense and only serve as a placeholder for people who don't use the internet. The real points will be released as a pdf on the launch day.
Put it in a picture above. So yea. The points are interesting for the Squiggosaur boss and Mozzie and really odd for other units.
Cant help but feeling that the Squighog boy brick of 8 models + squigboss is too expensive. There are certainly more models in the unit now, but you also dont get +1 to hit anymore. Its like 430 points with a squigboss for 8 models. + him.
So essentially i cant start making new lists before they put the new costs online.. bummer. Then having the codex from online is irrelevant. Unless i expect the older prices from the PDF to be relevant, except for things such as models that have been completely altered, like squigbosses and mozzie.
Put it in a picture above. So yea. The points are interesting for the Squiggosaur boss and Mozzie and really odd for other units.
Cant help but feeling that the Squighog boy brick of 8 models + squigboss is too expensive. There are certainly more models in the unit now, but you also dont get +1 to hit anymore. Its like 430 points with a squigboss for 8 models. + him.
So essentially i cant start making new lists before they put the new costs online.. bummer. Then having the codex from online is irrelevant. Unless i expect the older prices from the PDF to be relevant, except for things such as models that have been completely altered, like squigbosses and mozzie.
The patterns has been that points don't really change much from the current Index when we get the final points I believe. I expected it to cost more than 430 to be honest. That package currently costs 475 but you definitely lost the +1 to hit and a couple wounds in the process. I feel like the 4 man makes more sense now, but it'll depend a lot on whether they keep the points nerfs from the last slate in the final value.
I have to say, I think I favor meganobz over nobz.
There are three stinky characters that can go well into meganobz.
The standard big mek for durability in wagon or trukk.
The mega boss with tellyporta.
Ghazghkull for ferocious durability and hitting power, but it would be slow and expensive.
That's two anvils and a hammer. I think it would make sense for most to run one brick with a big mek and one with a tellyporta.
Nobz at current points I think are less appealing and less flexible with the nerf, which sounds weird, but there is a lot to favor meganobz. Please correct me if I am overlooking something.
The -1 to incoming AP is rather filthy as is the 4+++ FNP on double waaagh, so I think a greater concentration would make them harder to ignore versus nobs which are a much softer target for the points.
I think GW overlooked internal balance between nobz and meganobz with the change, but we'll see where the points land. It seems to me that whatever is in the codex is a placeholder. I doubt they will reduce nobz points cost though until they see greater skew towards meganobz in tournaments, but we'll have to see how they do.
TedNugent wrote: I have to say, I think I favor meganobz over nobz.
There are three stinky characters that can go well into meganobz.
The standard big mek for durability in wagon or trukk.
The mega boss with tellyporta.
Ghazghkull for ferocious durability and hitting power, but it would be slow and expensive.
That's two anvils and a hammer. I think it would make sense for most to run one brick with a big mek and one with a tellyporta.
Nobz at current points I think are less appealing and less flexible with the nerf, which sounds weird, but there is a lot to favor meganobz. Please correct me if I am overlooking something.
The -1 to incoming AP is rather filthy as is the 4+++ FNP on double waaagh, so I think a greater concentration would make them harder to ignore versus nobs which are a much softer target for the points.
I think GW overlooked internal balance between nobz and meganobz with the change, but we'll see where the points land. It seems to me that whatever is in the codex is a placeholder. I doubt they will reduce nobz points cost though until they see greater skew towards meganobz in tournaments, but we'll have to see how they do.
I think that depends entirely on what you want them to achieve. Mega Nobz will never deal as much damage as Nobz currently do. If you want overwhelming power, Nobz is your way to go. If you want some power and great durbility, go Mega Nobz.
Nobz also arent super reliant on the Waaagh to do great damage, but Mega Nobz are, especially if you run Kill saws. While MANZ defenses went up, their attack actually went down due to the loss of devastating wounds.
Maybe the balance difference between MANZ and Nobz isnt that great in the bully boys detatchment but i still see uses for Nobz. Actually i think in a bully boys detatchment im currently thinking of 2 units of 10 Nobz and 2 units of 6 MANZ. and then something else of course.
But all in all it depends entirely on your detatchment and what you wanna do with them. and i guess their cost.
Beardedragon wrote: If anyone is interested, i have a PDF version of the codex. I can say the costs that the codex came with. i DONT know if they will make any changes.
According to the new codex, the Stompa is still 800 points.
Dont know if its against the rules, but ill just post a picture of the point costs here. If its illigal then i guess, remove it?
Anyway my take is, that some of this is weird. And seem old. Like, the kill rig is back to 220. Im not sure why. Nobz are also back to pre-nerf prices. So it seems only things that were directly changed in this codex, like squiggosaurs and Mozrog and such, had a changed price. The rest were not updated with the newest price changes.
Beardedragon wrote: If anyone is interested, i have a PDF version of the codex. I can say the costs that the codex came with. i DONT know if they will make any changes.
According to the new codex, the Stompa is still 800 points.
Dont know if its against the rules, but ill just post a picture of the point costs here. If its illigal then i guess, remove it?
Anyway my take is, that some of this is weird. And seem old. Like, the kill rig is back to 220. Im not sure why. Nobz are also back to pre-nerf prices. So it seems only things that were directly changed in this codex, like squiggosaurs and Mozrog and such, had a changed price. The rest were not updated with the newest price changes.
I' m interested This points are pointless
The points are literally from the start of the Edition so yea. they are kinda useless. Except for that they give a little insight in to mozrog and the beastboss on squig and i guess where we can expect them to land, price wise.
Beardedragon wrote: I think that depends entirely on what you want them to achieve. Mega Nobz will never deal as much damage as Nobz currently do. If you want overwhelming power, Nobz is your way to go. If you want some power and great durbility, go Mega Nobz.
Nobz also arent super reliant on the Waaagh to do great damage, but Mega Nobz are, especially if you run Kill saws. While MANZ defenses went up, their attack actually went down due to the loss of devastating wounds.
Maybe the balance difference between MANZ and Nobz isnt that great in the bully boys detatchment but i still see uses for Nobz. Actually i think in a bully boys detatchment im currently thinking of 2 units of 10 Nobz and 2 units of 6 MANZ. and then something else of course.
But all in all it depends entirely on your detatchment and what you wanna do with them. and i guess their cost.
Thrakka seems like a must-take for Bully Boyz. He gaines the Warboss Trait, so as long as he is alive, you will be able to call a second Waaagh!, plus he will get the 4++ from his MANz unit to make any precision shenanigans a waste of time for your opponent and will benefit from any stratagems used on them.
Beardedragon wrote: I think that depends entirely on what you want them to achieve. Mega Nobz will never deal as much damage as Nobz currently do. If you want overwhelming power, Nobz is your way to go. If you want some power and great durbility, go Mega Nobz.
Nobz also arent super reliant on the Waaagh to do great damage, but Mega Nobz are, especially if you run Kill saws. While MANZ defenses went up, their attack actually went down due to the loss of devastating wounds.
Maybe the balance difference between MANZ and Nobz isnt that great in the bully boys detatchment but i still see uses for Nobz. Actually i think in a bully boys detatchment im currently thinking of 2 units of 10 Nobz and 2 units of 6 MANZ. and then something else of course.
But all in all it depends entirely on your detatchment and what you wanna do with them. and i guess their cost.
Thrakka seems like a must-take for Bully Boyz. He gaines the Warboss Trait, so as long as he is alive, you will be able to call a second Waaagh!, plus he will get the 4++ from his MANz unit to make any precision shenanigans a waste of time for your opponent and will benefit from any stratagems used on them.
Completely true.
But Mega Nobz, outside of bully boys, arent really necessarily better than Nobz.
Say you dont play bully boys and get turn 2, in that instance, your FNP will probably never come in to play. At that point i guess having devastating wounds would have been better (the FNP is miles better in general tho). So outside of bully boys, on 50% of your battles the FNP probably wont come in to play because you went second. (This was more of a response to someone stating that MANZ out perform Nobz above).
In a Bully boyz detatchment id say there is room for both. But Mega Nobz REALLY shine in Bully Boyz, holy moly. I mean their damage is still mediocre but their defensive buffs are staggering. Even using a Big Mek in Mega Armor with KFF with Mega Nobz in a Dread Mob detatchment can make good sense. Or Mega Nobz with 10+ models enhancement on a character in the unit in greentide to reroll save rolls of 1 sounds good too (if its not a mistake that is, that will be corrected given that mega Nobz cant innately have 10+ models). It seems like most detatchments could afford taking 1 unit of Mega Nobz and it wouldnt be bad.
And yea id definitely take Ghaz in Bullyboys. Ghaz is a must take there i agree.
Things look good but points dependent..
and meganobs look great and I don’t think the 1+ reroll and 2+ save is that bad.. mega nobs natively lack a invul to was always susceptible to any ap. They are also slow, melee and cost a bunch.. I mean theoretically a kff megaMek would make them the most annoying brick but that’s already the case.
Things look good but points dependent..
and meganobs look great and I don’t think the 1+ reroll and 2+ save is that bad.. mega nobs natively lack a invul to was always susceptible to any ap. They are also slow, melee and cost a bunch.. I mean theoretically a kff megaMek would make them the most annoying brick but that’s already the case.
It's also work remembering that on top of high AP, neither mortal wounds nor devastating wounds give a damn about those re-rolls or the KFF. Quite a few players have started LoV in my group and judged KFF Mek/MANz units just get vaporize by them. On the other hand, they don't really need any help to tank insane amounts of attacks if someone doesn't have the right tools available to deal with them.
And let's not forget that MANz lose access to -1 to wound in that detachment, that one is Wartribe only.
Things look good but points dependent..
and meganobs look great and I don’t think the 1+ reroll and 2+ save is that bad.. mega nobs natively lack a invul to was always susceptible to any ap. They are also slow, melee and cost a bunch.. I mean theoretically a kff megaMek would make them the most annoying brick but that’s already the case.
It's also work remembering that on top of high AP, neither mortal wounds nor devastating wounds give a damn about those re-rolls or the KFF. Quite a few players have started LoV in my group and judged KFF Mek/MANz units just get vaporize by them. On the other hand, they don't really need any help to tank insane amounts of attacks if someone doesn't have the right tools available to deal with them.
And let's not forget that MANz lose access to -1 to wound in that detachment, that one is Wartribe only.
Well, Steve Pampreen at 8:30 already predicted incoming meganob nerf, weirdly enough he's more interested in Speed Freaks as the fallback. So I think there's probably something to this.
Bully Boyz is the obvious detachment, still has armor of contempt and potentially two turns of 4+ FNP.
Rerolling 1's just means it's potentially playable in Green Tide detachment whereas almost nothing else benefits.
My bigger concern is that we haven't seen the new points since what's in the book makes it look like they phoned it in, and it's going to be entirely dependent on where the points land.
I mean I think meganobs in bullyboys are competitive. But it won’t be the default competitive list greentide is by far the most busted competitive list.. sticky objectives AND 5++ all game that screams competitive list all day long. The main issue is it’s annoying to play in a timed format. But the shear shenanigans with turning off objective secured on other units. Bringing models back to override and claim objectives. Pretty much means by turn 3 your opponent can’t recover. I’m glad it’s an option especially narratively but it’s not something I want to play in a tournament.
TedNugent wrote: My bigger concern is that we haven't seen the new points since what's in the book makes it look like they phoned it in, and it's going to be entirely dependent on where the points land.
Why should you be concerned with ork points being publish exactly like every single other codex this edition?
Points aren't that important anyways. A great codex with terrible points will be fixed eventually, a terrible codex will remain terrible.
Like every other codex I don’t expect massive point changes especially as not a lot of datasheets changed much.. which is sad because the stompas main issue is points. Price it close to a knight castellan or valiant (525-530) and it will be decent. Heck make it 550-575 and it is playable. The stompa main issue is that it has a hard time moving on the table. Dread mob fixes some other issues but at 800 pts it’s non-playable.
gungo wrote: Like every other codex I don’t expect massive point changes especially as not a lot of datasheets changed much.. which is sad because the stompas main issue is points. Price it close to a knight castellan or valiant (525-530) and it will be decent. Heck make it 550-575 and it is playable. The stompa main issue is that it has a hard time moving on the table. Dread mob fixes some other issues but at 800 pts it’s non-playable.
It's sad that the Stompa basically only exists as a meme unit that occasionally turns up to a tournament and does well.... Pretty much only because it's been given every buff it could possibly be given and people aren't expecting a Stompa.
Maybe this one will be the codex that lets the Stompa shine (it won't).
Quick non ork related question. Well i guess it is related to orks, but its also a rules question in general.
Do i HAVE to shoot all my guns when firing with a unit? This is in relation to Dread Mob. I dont think, on a gorkanaut for instance, that it would be beneficial to shoot all my big shootas and take hazardous tests on those lousy weapons. So maybe id prefer to only shoot the big guns.
But ive been under the impression that you HAVE to shoot all guns that arent fire once per game (like hunter killer missiles) if you decide to attack.
Also if i have a unit of of Killa Kanz, do i have to shoot with all models, or can i decide to shoot with 3 out of 6 of em?
Cant seem to really find a proper answer in the rules part for making attacks.
)
I don't see anything wrong narratively with beating my opponent, taking their dakka and strapping it to mine for a bigger and better deffgun 
