On a different note, last weekend I received the worst stomp in 40k since 7th edition.
But don't worry, I was playing my DG into EC with a KoS as ally. I picked a list very close to what tournament players deem competitive into a solid, but uncompetitive list. Holy gak, I had no chance, like at all. I was technically tabled by the start of my turn 3, and I didn't lose a single model in turn 1. Literally my entire army, save for three terminators and a character, were wiped out in a single turn.
It really helped me appreciate how well off orks are right now. My DG will absolutely be on the shelf for the next year or two.
I knew DG weren't in a great spot but I didn't realise it was that bad. Makes me very grateful that our index is at least usable.
My two games of 10th (one with DG, one with Orks) had similar outcomes. I felt like I could have used double the amount of models to stand a chance with DG while orks worked fine. DG feel like someone decided last Minute to strip the army of its traditional 5+++, so everything is overpriced by 30%.
The Red Hobbit wrote: Oh I fully agree with you, it makes sense that transport capacity would go down when you are using it for more armor, ammo, or weapons. It's disappointing though when it takes a good transport capacity and makes it limited to the point where really only one unit is worth putting in there (Flash Gitz) since you've only got so many spots.
If it was instead a larger capacity that dropped down to 10 it wouldn't be as painful and would leave more options open.
I fully agree. I guess my second part was too negative. In essence I tried to say that I would value interesting transports spaces over stuff that "makes sense". It's not even a trade-off if you drop your transport capacity to useless levels.
Then again, for FW models I consider ourselves lucky for every single one that even has worthwhile rules.
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Grimskul wrote: Felt like so far I find diminishing returns for grots, I'm tempted to just take 1 in lists now since 2 sometimes is overkill when there isn't that many objectives to go after in some missions. Not sure what you guys think.
Roughly the same. 1 is set in stone, a second one if it fits, even if that means taking no enhancements. There is just too many "instead of shooting" objectives that get a lot easier if you have an expendable unit of gretchin around. I will also never get tired of just standing a unit of gretchin within 1.1" of a unit of marines (or similar) to outscore them. I would never drop a unit that actually does something though.
Also, I'm facing the same Eldar guy again for a 1v1, wanted to get some advice from you. Partly inspired by the previous lists from Jidmah and others, I wanted a more mobile non transport focused list that uses the Weirdboy/Boyz/Warboss and Kommandos/Snikrot combo for using 'Ere We Go strat followed by the teleport for a 7" charge, ideally with a reroll if I can get the extra CP on my turn from grots. Here's my list so far: [snip]
I'm wondering if there's enough pressure from this list and what goes best with the boyz and kommandos as follow ups. Let me know what feedback you guys have for me.
Looks good, the only thing I'd add would be the rokkit on the kommadoz mob. Just having an extra 3 damage every other turn can make huge difference. When the mob is decimated to almost nothing, a single rokkit is still more helpful than another choppa. A piece of advice for playing the list is to not let yourself get blinded by the "precise" on the 'eadbanger. Sure, gambling to explode a character is always the fun choice, but many characters are protected by invulnerable saves and/or FNP or simply not worth targeting. I've found the best targets for 'eadbanger are actually vehicles or monsters that lack those, as you have a much higher chance of dealing a big chunk of damage. One of my eldar opponent loves bringing support weapons for his D-Cannon needs, those are great targets, for example.
My last though would be that when playing, check carefully if your character/unit balance is right. It feels like you might leaning a bit too heavy into characters and might be a little light on units. Just a gut feeling though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a different note, last weekend I received the worst stomp in 40k since 7th edition.
But don't worry, I was playing my DG into EC with a KoS as ally. I picked a list very close to what tournament players deem competitive into a solid, but uncompetitive list. Holy gak, I had no chance, like at all. I was technically tabled by the start of my turn 3, and I didn't lose a single model in turn 1. Literally my entire army, save for three terminators and a character, were wiped out in a single turn.
It really helped me appreciate how well off orks are right now. My DG will absolutely be on the shelf for the next year or two.
Thanks for the feedback Jidmah! It's true, I do wonder if it's overkill bringing two Nob on Smasha Squigs with Squighog boyz. I could cut the one Nob on Smasha Squig and have it become a 6 man squad of Squighog boyz led by one Nob on Smasha Squig instead and use the savings to have a 5 man stormboyz squad for deep striking into holding objectives/doing actions. Not sure where else I would try and cut points, but I'm up for any other suggestions!
Also, damn that's rough to hear about your game with Death Guard, I didn't realize it was that bad for them at the moment. I think it doesn't help that they're very slow this edition and limited when it comes to what kind of firepower they can bring to the table relative to other armies. I believe Mortarion is a very big crutch unit in this edition?
Grimskul wrote: Also, I'm facing the same Eldar guy again for a 1v1, wanted to get some advice from you. Partly inspired by the previous lists from Jidmah and others, I wanted a more mobile non transport focused list that uses the Weirdboy/Boyz/Warboss and Kommandos/Snikrot combo for using 'Ere We Go strat followed by the teleport for a 7" charge, ideally with a reroll if I can get the extra CP on my turn from grots.
Do you expect the Eldar player will be fielding a similar army for your 1v1 game? I also play Eldar and I will say that Wraith units are extremely good and very aggressively costed if you are facing any of those variety, except for perhaps the Wraithlord who is good but not as efficient as all the other units. Support weapons with D-Cannon IDF is extremely unpleasant, but I'm not sure if you want that to be the priority target with your 7" charge, hard to say without knowing what else they are bringing. I would say krumping will probably be the better move than hunkering down on objectives, just because of the high amount of lethal firepower and fate dice Eldar have, fast moving melee which your list is geared towards may be your best bet.
Thankfully, he won't be bringing the real pain from Wraithknights or only D-weapon spam from multiple units of Wraithguard, but he does take at least a couple of D-cannon weapon platforms and the usual warp spiders with the Autarch Lone Operative to get CP to spam.
On a different note, last weekend I received the worst stomp in 40k since 7th edition.
But don't worry, I was playing my DG into EC with a KoS as ally. I picked a list very close to what tournament players deem competitive into a solid, but uncompetitive list. Holy gak, I had no chance, like at all. I was technically tabled by the start of my turn 3, and I didn't lose a single model in turn 1. Literally my entire army, save for three terminators and a character, were wiped out in a single turn.
It really helped me appreciate how well off orks are right now. My DG will absolutely be on the shelf for the next year or two.
I knew DG weren't in a great spot but I didn't realise it was that bad. Makes me very grateful that our index is at least usable.
My two games of 10th (one with DG, one with Orks) had similar outcomes. I felt like I could have used double the amount of models to stand a chance with DG while orks worked fine. DG feel like someone decided last Minute to strip the army of its traditional 5+++, so everything is overpriced by 30%.
Except dg hasn't always been in 5+++ before.
But yeah they aren't in best spot though unless other fields meanest tournament list they can work. While not great win rate here isn't worst. Depends a lot on mission and not coping well with surprises.
Grimskul wrote: Also, damn that's rough to hear about your game with Death Guard, I didn't realize it was that bad for them at the moment. I think it doesn't help that they're very slow this edition and limited when it comes to what kind of firepower they can bring to the table relative to other armies. I believe Mortarion is a very big crutch unit in this edition?
Well, during the game I often wished that my plague marines would have been nobz instead, because those would have been more durable. Go figure. I didn't really bother with keeping score, but rhinos are absolutely necessary to play the game at all, otherwise you can't reach no-mans land objectives until turn 3.
Mortarion was one of my best units, but he still was blown away with the rest of the army. His aura's aren't that great, but it's the best DG have he at least is somewhat durable. The best he can do is make PBC re-roll ones to wound and ignore modifiers, which essentially is 900 points for 3 guns which are worse than 3 D-cannons. He also hits like a wet noodle though, meaning he was unable to fight back against the terminator squad that charged him and he was just beaten to death over two rounds of combat by a squad of beautifully converted phoenix terminators. Thrakka is better than Mortarion in absolutely every aspect. A garg squiggoth is more durable, more killy and costs almost he same.
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tneva82 wrote: But yeah they aren't in best spot though unless other fields meanest tournament list they can work.
No, they can't. The army is completely dysfunctional, and if your opponent puts down an army that was not tailored towards lowering their chance to win, you will struggle against it even if you bring DG's meanest and hardest list.
While not great win rate here isn't worst. Depends a lot on mission and not coping well with surprises.
They are literaly fighting tau for the second worst winrate. They also have a much easier time in tournament games because people are seeking to score more VP in lieu of shooting of fighting. If your opponent is just looking to kill you, there is nothing DG can do about that.
I fully agree with Sgt. Cortez that the army feels like the detachment's defensive rule was pulled last minute, whether that is a 5++, -1 damage or something completely different doesn't really matter.
Few people have DG as their first army though, so there is very little complaining anymore, not even on dakka. The army has been abandoned by most of its players.
Went to a tournament and went 3 wins 2 losses.. so that was okay.
Won against Chaos Knights, regular knights and 1 custodian player. Lost against Chaos Space marines and another Custodian player.
Got turn 2 against both the dudes i lost against, and i think i could have possibly won if i hadnt gone turn 2. It kinda bugs me out how much of a difference going for turn 1 does when playing orks.
A thing that bugged me about the state of the game these days though is, that except for me and the 20th spot space wolves player (i ended up with a 21st place out of 53) there were no melee factions on top 20 except custodians.
Custodians, Thousand sons, aeldari, Chaos space marines and gene stealers, is what dominated the top and like 1 or 2 space marine players and maybe 2 necrons (and a single tyranid). The rest of the players were Imperial guard, a few different types of space marines littered around, Knights and Chaos Knights + 2 or 3 Tau players.
I was the only ork player. There was no drukhari, and only 1 world eaters player. No sisters of battle, a single DG and no LoV. Also no Daemons.
I feel like this goes to show how skewed this edition is, right now towards shooting factions. Its really oppressive, so bear that in mind going in to tournaments with orks. Its the same factions one can play against, theres no real diversity.
I hope the balance slates, when ever they are out, will bring some hefty changes. Although i bear no expectations of them changing how overwatch works in the movement phase (which it absolutely shouldnt work in) i do hope it goes away. Maybe more melee factions want to play then?
Who knows.
Orks are doable at least.
I went with 6 trukks with 4x10 snagga boys, mozzie, beastboss on squig with kill choppa, badrukk with flash gitz, Warboss (follow me ladz) with nobz, weirdboy with supa-cybork for mission play, 2x 5 stormboys and 2x 10 grots.
How did you beat custodes? i'm trying to figure it out myself. Move blocking? seems like we ain't got much that scratches the gold paint. Were they two very different lists that you played into? Any 10 man guard bricks?
PaddyMick wrote: How did you beat custodes? i'm trying to figure it out myself. Move blocking? seems like we ain't got much that scratches the gold paint. Were they two very different lists that you played into? Any 10 man guard bricks?
I would take that victory against the custodies player with a grain of salt, he was not a super good player (imo) and didnt have an optimal custodian player list. First of all he used a unit of 5 saggitarium shoota custodians, which are just generally inferior to normal wardens or guardians. and second and most outrageously, he didnt use Trajann.
he had 5 shoota golden guys, 7 or so wardens with a character (i dont know their names) that allowed him to use free stratagems, 2 blade champions with 2 guardian squads each, and 2x 3 terminators. 1 sniper character and 5 or so silent sisters to hold the backline objective. Oh, and that assassin that taxes stratagems to make them more expensive. He taxed my "Unbridled carnage" after i used them on my nobz, but he really should have used it on my ard as nails.
Which is a problem for him, because only his blob of wardens had that character with him, that could use a stratagem for free (and thus get fight first). Normally they have that dude in one blob and trajann in another blob for 2x fight first. Or something like that at least.
But i got turn 1, which always helps so i moved my trukks up. He got his first turn and moved up as well. Then i just crashed in to him, i held nothing back, i bodied his units with everything i had, but i deliberately left out his wardens with fight first, so he had to use his "free stratagem" on heroic intervention, which meant he had to use fight first on a unit but not for free, and thus couldnt activate it twice. He then intervened against mozzie (but did not have CP to give his wardens +1 to wound against character,moster, vehicle (or is it rerolls to wound? dunno), so mozzie survived with his trusty ard as nails, thus wasting the entire effort of the wardens.
Flash gitz killed 3/like 7 guardians in one area, + the guardians were bodied by 20 snagga boys. he tried to get reroll wounds by owning the objective, by using either a stratagem or an ability that gave them alot more OC, but i had bodied that objective with some grots, and my 20 snagga boys so i still owned it by the time we started fighting.
Nobz with powerklaws ripped apart guardians in the other end, and the middle objective with 2x3 terminators and wardens (who interneved in) were bodied by another 20 snagga boys + mozzie. When nobz were done on the bottom part they swung around and ripped the wardens to pieces.
Over all he was not that great of a player, and he did not have a super sweaty custodian list either.
The guy i lost against, on the other hand, bodied me completely. But i also got turn 2, which he knew was good for him, so he just advanced up the board. And i was kinda forced to almost go backwards, in order to not get charged, just so that i could call waaagh turn 2.
Which is why i hate our current waaagh system. Why, just because im turn 2, is my opponent allowed to react to my waaagh? It should really revert back to being called in my own command phase.
So yea, custodians are still a terrible match up for orks even if i won.
Cool, thanks for that. I'm gonna math out flash gits against the bricks, and see if a gorkanuat with mek buff in waargh stands up in combat (though I suspect it's trading down).
Maybe sacrifice 20 kommandos turn one to move block to stop them getting more than 9'' out of their deployment zone even if they do go first.
PaddyMick wrote: Cool, thanks for that. I'm gonna math out flash gits against the bricks, and see if a gorkanuat with mek buff in waargh stands up in combat (though I suspect it's trading down).
Maybe sacrifice 20 kommandos turn one to move block to stop them getting more than 9'' out of their deployment zone even if they do go first.
Again if he feels like he can spend the CP, he can just reduce their damage to 1.
I overwatched 2 terminators with my flash gitz, all 10 of them managed to kill 1 terminator. So that sucked. he did get his save of +2 but even so.
Im not sure if i like flash gitz or not, after the GT i just came out from. Maybe i favor another unit of powerklaw nobz and a warboss, i cant really tell. They are good on paper, but many things just dont out well for them. First of all, if they jump out of a trukk to kill someone, they will most likely be overwatched. Or then you fight against custodians which are in big numbers these days, and flash gitz arent that amazing against them. Or you end up fighting against genestealers or chaos space marines that stops you from being able to shoot against specific targets unless you are within 12".
The current meta makes flash gitz a bit difficult to use.
Dunno about the 20 kommandos though. thats a hefty moveblock, price wise. What about maybe 20 grots with zodgrod?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmm, guess what happened….
Yeah, PaddyMick is right, he run to Eldar. But despite of that he is the 6th with just Eldars ahead of him, so I call it a mighty ork victory! And this is my motivation picture for this pourpose, because I 'm like the Beastbosses with snagga boyz as a unit, but hate the design. So say hallo to my DreadBosses!
@beardeddragon
Zog + grots requires going first and calling a waaargh, but you are right, 260 points is a lot. Maybe one squad is enough, think they could block an area 32 inches long (edit: not as much as that woops mybe more like 24'' (300mm of bases + 6x 2'' spaces) if spaced correctly.
Hey guys, just wanted to give a quick update from my 1500 point game against Eldar yesterday. Shout out to Jidmah for the advice on shifting away from too many leaders and bringing more bodies, swapping the Nob on Smasha Squig for some Stormboyz made a big impact on my game against the Eldar player.
From the list I mentioned before, I was facing an Eldar list that was Aspect Host heavy and only had one D-cannon, which thankfully made it a lot less oppressive than the current meta of devastating wounds out the wazoo (I think he felt sort of bad from spamming mortal wounds the last game). We played a very straight forward mission, with Take and Hold as well as rolling Hammer and Anvil for deployment alongside the Reserves mission rule where units coming from deep strike/strategic reserve only arrive on a 3+. That would play a very big role against both of us in the game.
I got to go first on T1 and I proceeded to redeploy Snikrot and his kommandos within 9" of a forward deployed D-cannon from my opponent and popped the 'Ere We Go strat on them for a 7" charge against it. Kommandos not being able to be overwatched is really clutch against armies like Eldar that basically aim to abuse it every turn. Unfortunately the cards I drew for that turn was Area Denial and Storm Hostile Objective, I was very tempted to try and charge his guardians on the objective instead, but I knew I needed to take out his D-cannon stat, so I sent the Kommandos into the D-cannon and killed it while the mob of boyz Da Jumped into the center objective to get Area Denial.
That basically set the tone of the game from that point on as it ensured I got an early point lead and he struggled to get me off the objectives since he lacked a frontline unit to bully me off them. What also screwed us both was that both my Stormboyz and his Swooping Hawks didn't come on the turn we needed them to do objectives like Behind Enemy Lines. Luckily, with the points lead and getting achievable objectives from being on all the central points, I was able to win 61 to 50 even though I was tabled by end of T4.
Some of the highlights was my Beastboss on Squigosaur one-shotting Asurmen with 6 mortal wounds (sweet justice!) with his Killchoppa, and then tanking an entire flank's worth of shooting without even using Ard as Nails. Flash Gitz and Badrukk did work as usual, and between Overwatch and regular shooting wiped out 3 full units of Aspect Warriors before being taken down.
I doubt I would have won if my opponent had gone full cheese mode with Wraith and Web Spinner spam, but it's good either way to see the panzees put down a peg once in a while. Fingers crossed they get appropriate treatment in the balance dataslate this Thursday. I feel like we'll be untouched for the most part.
Sounds like a fun game, if they were doing almost entirely Aspects they must have had a lot of units on the table, possibly more than you . Which Aspects did they field the most?
I'm also surprised he managed to knock all your guys off the table with just Aspect Warriors. Did he also have mechanized support via Fire Prisms or War Walkers?
How do you think the game would have changed if you hadn't made that charge into the D-Cannons with the Kommandos?
Grimskul wrote: Hey guys, just wanted to give a quick update from my 1500 point game against Eldar yesterday. Shout out to Jidmah for the advice on shifting away from too many leaders and bringing more bodies, swapping the Nob on Smasha Squig for some Stormboyz made a big impact on my game against the Eldar player.
Glad I could help
I got to go first on T1 and I proceeded to redeploy Snikrot and his kommandos within 9" of a forward deployed D-cannon from my opponent and popped the 'Ere We Go strat on them for a 7" charge against it. Kommandos not being able to be overwatched is really clutch against armies like Eldar that basically aim to abuse it every turn. Unfortunately the cards I drew for that turn was Area Denial and Storm Hostile Objective, I was very tempted to try and charge his guardians on the objective instead, but I knew I needed to take out his D-cannon stat, so I sent the Kommandos into the D-cannon and killed it while the mob of boyz Da Jumped into the center objective to get Area Denial.
I also have this love-hate relation to Area Denial. I feel like it is always forcing me to move somewhere I don't really want to be, but it always ends up putting me in a superior board position
I feel like we'll be untouched for the most part.
I agree. I see all these wish lists all over reddit, but I really can't see them touching orks outside of buffing some oddball bad units and the obligatory point drop on the stompa by a tiny amount that makes no difference whatsoever.
Despite getting orks right apparently being extremely difficult, they somehow nailed them right out of the gate. If I were Stu Black, I wouldn't touch orks at all.
The thing we should be looking at is how GW handles Custodes and Imperial Knights, they are the runner ups to the current big bads which give us the most trouble.
I'd imagine that the majority of the buffs we'll get from the dataslate will actually be nerfs to the big 3 of Eldar, GSC and Custodes. In my experience we can kinda deal with Knights by virtue of killing the smaller ones and then just outscoring with our superior board control.
Although we're definitely going to get a handful of minor points cost drops. I think the main offenders for overcosted units at the moment are definitely Tankbustas, maybe Deff Dreads and maybe BWs?
Ironically, GSC are not problem for orks whatsoever. In fact, the sole reason why they aren't above eldar is because they play so badly in to orks.
BW and deff dread could definitely use a point drop, their rules are fine, but they are just too expensive. I'd even chuck the two rigs in with them, neither is worth their points as they are now.
Both nauts are also way over what they should cost, but they are quite hard to get right. The point raise on the morkanaut should definitely be rolled back though.
For tankbustas, I feel like their points are not game motivated, so I'm not holding my breath for them.
Im pretty sure you CANT draw Storm hostile objectives round 1. Maybe im mistaken. But you had to pick a new secondary and put storm hostile objective back in to the fold.
Im pretty sure you CANT draw Storm hostile objectives round 1. Maybe im mistaken. But you had to pick a new secondary and put storm hostile objective back in to the fold.
Correct. That and defend stronghold are draw new and reshuffle.
The Red Hobbit wrote: Sounds like a fun game, if they were doing almost entirely Aspects they must have had a lot of units on the table, possibly more than you . Which Aspects did they field the most?
I'm also surprised he managed to knock all your guys off the table with just Aspect Warriors. Did he also have mechanized support via Fire Prisms or War Walkers?
How do you think the game would have changed if you hadn't made that charge into the D-Cannons with the Kommandos?
Yeah, it was pretty close since if he had one more turn he would have beat me as he was finally getting close to catching up on points after finally knocking me off the board. Definitely a tight game which is always fun. He did have more fire support, with a Falcon and a Wave Serpent as well as a Fire Prism. The Dark Reapers with Maugan Ra and Swooping Hawks did the most work anti-infantry wise, followed by Dire Avengers when they were led by Asurmen. It really is bizarre to see how much of a paradigm shift there is for Ork lists though, now that you mention how many units he had relative to mine, because I do believe he had more overall bodies than me. Which is super weird because having started 40k in 5th ed, it was almost always the opposite where I had 100+ models usually on the board and now over the editions it's become smaller and smaller for most Ork armies.
I think if I didn't get rid of the D-cannon at the very beginning he would have very likely popped my Trukk transporting Badrukk and his Flash Gitz T1, forcing them to hoof it across the board meaning they wouldn't have been able to deploy in the central area where they did most of their work overwatching and shooting into the Eldar units trying to take the center objective. My list basically has non-existent shooting, so without the Kommandos I doubt I would have gotten to it in time (especially with cheesy strats like Phantasm) or intact enough to wipe it out in one go since he still had a decent amount of fate dice for saves. That early points lead that secured me the game was definitely due to the pressure put in by the kommandos.
Im pretty sure you CANT draw Storm hostile objectives round 1. Maybe im mistaken. But you had to pick a new secondary and put storm hostile objective back in to the fold.
Whoops, you are indeed correct. Definitely my bad, which I guess was actually a nerf for me since I could have drawn another secondary I could have accomplished that turn. Probably doesn't help that I missed it since I just printed out the scans for the mission cards (so it has really tiny font) and put old MtG cards into card sleeves and slipped them in over them since I am not making the mistake of paying for GW made mission cards again. Those things last about as long as it takes for an Ork to kick a grot when he's bored.
There might be some minor changes to points on less performing ork units but I don’t see us being touched.. they got bigger issues to deal with eldar, gsc, custodes and knights…and then a half dozen or so underperforming armies… orks biggest buff will be our codex in 2024 which if the tyranid codex is any indication will have 6! Detachments.
My wish (I’m prepared to be disappointed)
Current index pressure list detachment
Dread waaagh/walker
Obligatory beastsnagga detachment
Speedwaagh/speedfreak
Greentide
Bloodaxe/infiltrator
gungo wrote: There might be some minor changes to points on less performing ork units but I don’t see us being touched.. they got bigger issues to deal with eldar, gsc, custodes and knights…and then a half dozen or so underperforming armies… orks biggest buff will be our codex in 2024 which if the tyranid codex is any indication will have 6! Detachments.
My wish (I’m prepared to be disappointed)
Current index pressure list detachment
Dread waaagh/walker
Obligatory beastsnagga detachment
Speedwaagh/speedfreak
Greentide
Bloodaxe/infiltrator
Yeah, those look about right to me. I'm really hoping the Dread WAAAGH makes the cut this time around, my walkers have been languishing in rules purgatory for a while now, given that they barely benefited from both the SpeedWAAAGH! and regular WAAAGH! of 9th ed and only the Specialist Detachment made them work because of the double tap shooting strat for Morkanauts. Would be nice to have a more holistic detachment that makes all Walkers reasonably strong and is actually future proofed to include the FW walkers.
The detachment that I know won't be there but really wish it would is an Armoured Krumpany detachment, where it brings back looted tanks. I'd love to see a ramshackle brigade of Ork armour pumping out inaccurate but deadly broadsides of dakka.
gungo wrote: There might be some minor changes to points on less performing ork units but I don’t see us being touched.. they got bigger issues to deal with eldar, gsc, custodes and knights…and then a half dozen or so underperforming armies… orks biggest buff will be our codex in 2024 which if the tyranid codex is any indication will have 6! Detachments.
My wish (I’m prepared to be disappointed)
Current index pressure list detachment
Dread waaagh/walker
Obligatory beastsnagga detachment
Speedwaagh/speedfreak
Greentide
Bloodaxe/infiltrator
Note detachment count doesn't have to be same per book. First 2 have already different.
Wouldn't surprise if all klans have own themed. Then maybe 1-2 odder one.
GW builds the rules around what they want to sell.
Beastsnagas are the new models, so they are must.
Kans/dreads etc are old models. But it is a really long time since they was the hot units. Make a new detachement and sell the old models to new players (I play about 7 years and kans/dreads was more or less a gak the most of the times) makes sence. Most of the players do not have the models, but the models are nice and Nauts are pretty new. So lets sell them to everybody. The same way what they do with the Trukk right now.
I 'm pretty sceptical about the speedfreaks. GW makes a lot to sell the buggies to all of us in last 5 years. We all have them. Why the hell shall they make us a rules for the models we have? That goes againts the point of their business. This is not a moaning or something. I like making a money and this is pretty decent way. But if we want to predict the meta, we need to take this in account.
The questions are about new models. Shall we expect some? I don ' t trust in some important new models in next few years. We ' ve got 5 buggies + wartrike, kommandos, Ghazzy, deffkoptas + whole new family of beastsnagga units. Significant part of our codex are brand new models. Yeah, we ' ll get something, but I don' t expect anything more inovative than “tankbustas in plastic” of “new trukk”.
Gungos list is pretty good imho.
The important question is, which of these detachements will be great and which one of them will sucks.
My tip is speedfreaks will sucks and walkers + beastsnaggas with the Rigs will be interesting
It really is bizarre to see how much of a paradigm shift there is for Ork lists though, now that you mention how many units he had relative to mine, because I do believe he had more overall bodies than me. Which is super weird because having started 40k in 5th ed, it was almost always the opposite where I had 100+ models usually on the board and now over the editions it's become smaller and smaller for most Ork armies.
I was thinking the same thing. Orks have been getting more 'elite'ish since 9th and other alternatives to Greentide have been popping up. The change is fun but I still miss the days when playing against Orks (or Tyranids) meant you were facing a real horde of units, funny to see Eldar and Orks reversing roles of all places.
I think if I didn't get rid of the D-cannon at the very beginning he would have very likely popped my Trukk transporting Badrukk and his Flash Gitz T1, forcing them to hoof it across the board meaning they wouldn't have been able to deploy in the central area where they did most of their work overwatching and shooting into the Eldar units trying to take the center objective. My list basically has non-existent shooting, so without the Kommandos I doubt I would have gotten to it in time (especially with cheesy strats like Phantasm) or intact enough to wipe it out in one go since he still had a decent amount of fate dice for saves. That early points lead that secured me the game was definitely due to the pressure put in by the kommandos.
I think Orks in general have non-existent shooting and I'm still a bit disappointed that our detachment rule was only for melee and not for shooting leaving shoota boyz forgotten once again. I did finish assembling and painting my 3x Mek Guns and I'm looking forward to trying out 3x bubble chukkas with Mek support.
Kommando's are quite nice, I've been considering whether or not 2x10 might be worthwhile against a shooty opponent. What did your opponent end up using Phantasm on? I forgot to mention in the previous post that he might use that on his D-Weapons to foil your turn 1 charge.
cody.d. wrote: Not to mention pretty much any vehicle once you shove a mek under their armoured butt.
This is true.
So if you want effective (I.E. BS4) shooting take x3 meks, x3 carefully chosen vehicles, mek gunz, and my beloved Grot Tanks.
I've really come round on Deffkoptas as well. They're faster than a grot tank, trade a point of BS for twin linked, and hit decently hard in melee.
I'd actually say that grot tanks, Deffkoptas and Killa kans are all in the same bracket with some slight variations. Koptas are fast with better chaff clearing melee and twin linked rokkits, rokkit kans are slower but hit a lot harder in melee, and Grot tanks are a middle ground in terms of speed and melee output but have better volume of shots.
We definitely do have some decent shooting options, it's just that things like massed Beast Snagga units, Trukk spam and Nobz are really good, so they get the spotlight.
Keep in mind that kanz also ignore cover, which is rather important on AP-2 guns.
In general, my issue with all three options is that they die too fast for their points. Their defensive profiles are in a place where pretty much every gun in the opponent's arsenal is at least worth shooting at it, and a broad bandwidth is even extremely effective at doing so. It shows on the tabletop, after I caught my opponents off guard with kanz once or twice, I pretty much lose all of them immediately. 24" range is just a bit too close for comfort on such fragile units. When you expose them, they are gone.
I also have to point out that shooting does not have to be BS4+ to be reliable or effective. Given the same number of average hits, a BS5+ unit will always be superior to a BS4+ unit due to the potential to overperform. Superstitions like that have no place in a tactics thread.
cody.d. wrote: Not to mention pretty much any vehicle once you shove a mek under their armoured butt.
So what are we thinking about the nid stuff? Does the format give us a hopeful look at what the ork dex will have?
It was what gw said it would be. New detachments giving alternative ways to play with barely any changes to datasheets.
External balance won't change much but more ways to play.
And some chance that warscrolls that seems now pointless get fresh breath. Winged prime in index was junk but now that the sustained does something(and isn't just gained by detachment) and in vanquard giving warriors advance&charge it might be interesting.
Any potential candinates for that in orks?
Also possibility of more changes as time between index and codex grows.
gungo wrote: There might be some minor changes to points on less performing ork units but I don’t see us being touched.. they got bigger issues to deal with eldar, gsc, custodes and knights…and then a half dozen or so underperforming armies… orks biggest buff will be our codex in 2024 which if the tyranid codex is any indication will have 6! Detachments.
My wish (I’m prepared to be disappointed)
Current index pressure list detachment
Dread waaagh/walker
Obligatory beastsnagga detachment
Speedwaagh/speedfreak
Greentide
Bloodaxe/infiltrator
Note detachment count doesn't have to be same per book. First 2 have already different.
Wouldn't surprise if all klans have own themed. Then maybe 1-2 odder one.
I doubt they follow klan theme…
There can also be trukk rush detachment or warbike detachment but those seem to specific to a single unit..
I also don’t expect much more than a character model but hope for tankbustas redone in plastic.
gungo wrote: There might be some minor changes to points on less performing ork units but I don’t see us being touched.. they got bigger issues to deal with eldar, gsc, custodes and knights…and then a half dozen or so underperforming armies… orks biggest buff will be our codex in 2024 which if the tyranid codex is any indication will have 6! Detachments.
My wish (I’m prepared to be disappointed)
Current index pressure list detachment
Dread waaagh/walker
Obligatory beastsnagga detachment
Speedwaagh/speedfreak
Greentide
Bloodaxe/infiltrator
Note detachment count doesn't have to be same per book. First 2 have already different.
Wouldn't surprise if all klans have own themed. Then maybe 1-2 odder one.
I doubt they follow klan theme…
There can also be trukk rush detachment or warbike detachment but those seem to specific to a single unit..
I also don’t expect much more than a character model but hope for tankbustas redone in plastic.
Marines are following chapter style. White scar, imperial fist, ultramarine, ravenguard, ultramarine, salamander.
Mek not affecting the unit really only means hes not buffing Koptas (he wont keep up with them anyway), Kanz, and Grottanks.
Why would an ork help a grot?
Vineheart01 wrote: Mek not affecting the unit really only means hes not buffing Koptas (he wont keep up with them anyway), Kanz, and Grottanks.
Why would an ork help a grot?
Curious what they could do for a DAKKA Waaagh! type detachment, since in the past they've had issues only buffing one aspect and not the other (usually vehicles, at the exclusion of infantry). I think an easy one would be giving Sustained Hits 1 (Not sure if there would be a caveat for giving units with Sustained Hits 1 already into being Sustained Hits 2 instead, since I think that could make Flash Gitz too good) and/or giving the Assault to ranged weapons. Maybe Ork units have to choose between one or the other by start of the movement phase?
I just want the shooty detachment to actually promote using shoota boyz in some way, I have like 90 of them and I haven't been able to use them as anything else than ablative wounds for so long :(
Ngl I am slightly worried orks aren’t going to get any points reductions for our bad units. GW tends to take more of a if they’re doing well enough in the meta don’t touch them approach with orks. Hopefully I’m wrong though.
flaming tadpole wrote: Ngl I am slightly worried orks aren’t going to get any points reductions for our bad units. GW tends to take more of a if they’re doing well enough in the meta don’t touch them approach with orks. Hopefully I’m wrong though.
I would not be surprised if Trukks go up in points, people have been spamming them at turnaments and GW seem to realy hate when orks win with a skew list
Dekskull wrote:POINTS BALANZ? DAT SOUNDS LIKE HUMIE COWARD NONSENSE.
WEZ STOMPIN DA DEATHGUARD JUZ FINE DA WAY FINGS ARE!
Grimskul wrote:That would suck pretty hard, given that they're basically the only transport really worth taking at the moment.
On the brightside they may lower the price of the Battlewagon to be worthwhile. I've been wanting to try a battlewagon stuffed to the gills with shootaboyz for a while now.
It's worth noting that a good portion of the rule developers with a hateboner for successful orks are not longer in charge of developing 40k rules.
I don't really see any knee-jerks coming as orks aren't really doing anything the aren't supposed to be doing. Literally the only unit which seems to be overperforming is flash gits with Badrukk, but I'm not convinced that they are good enough to show up on GW's radar... yet. Let's see what happens when custodes and eldar are gone to keep us in check.
Jidmah wrote: It's worth noting that a good portion of the rule developers with a hateboner for successful orks are not longer in charge of developing 40k rules.
I don't really see any knee-jerks coming as orks aren't really doing anything the aren't supposed to be doing. Literally the only unit which seems to be overperforming is flash gits with Badrukk, but I'm not convinced that they are good enough to show up on GW's radar... yet. Let's see what happens when custodes and eldar are gone to keep us in check.
In my experience Flash Gits just rock up and blow up a unit before being immediately wiped off the board the moment the opponent can retaliate. Which is pretty much the entire Ork work ethic
I don't imagine they'll get touched, but I can maybe see Badrukk getting a slight price increase as he really sets up Gitz to overperform. If we even get touched at all.
Objectively, they aren't too strong because they cost a lot of points, but it's the one unit marine players facing me actually complain about. They really don't like having their battletanks shredded by low strength guns
We didn't really get touched in terms of rules, but we did get some points changes.
Codex units:
Beastboss from 80 to 100
Mega Mek from 100 to 85
KFF Mek from 65 to 55
Snikrot from 105 to 85
Zagstruk from 100 to 90
Burna Boys from 65/130/195 to 60/120/180
Deff Dread from 150 to 130
Wartrike from 90 to 80
Koptas from 115/230 to 100/200
Gorkanaut from 295 to 280
Grots from 45/90 to 40/80
Hunta Rig from 180 to 160
Badrukk from 95 to 80!
Kill Rig from 220 to 200
Lootas from 55/110/165 to 50/100/150
Grotsnik from 75 to 65
MANz from 65/100/165/200 to 60/90/150/180
Mek Gunz from 45/90/135 to 55/110/165
Morkanaut from 350 to 330
Smasha Squig from 75 to 60
Nobz from 115/230 to 105/210
Painboss from 70 to 60
Painboy from 80 to 70
Tankbustas from 135 to 110
Trukk from 50 to 60
Bikers from 75/150 to 70/140
Warboss from 70 to 65
Mega Boss from 95 to 80
While some of my units got a price increase, my list overall went down 10 points, so I'm happy with that
Missing out on some MW shenanigans is a bit of a bummer, but we weren't exactly relying on it to clear big groups of enemies, rather for killing high toughness targets. We've made out like bandits all things considered!
As always some changes are complete head scratchers. Gorknaut was already better than Morkanaut. not competitive but still… they jacked up the Morkanaut points and lowered gorkanaut? Essentially Morkanaut is unplayable at this price. (Morkanaut was 305 not 350 on my list)
Already must take units like badrukk had a big price reduction.
Beastboss took a double nerf unsure if he’s competitive but warboss and nobs are better as are Gretchin..
The one meta change I expect w devastating nerf is high toughness units with strong fnp to get significantly better Like mozgrod And beastboss on squig.
I almost want to like meganobs, or warbikers or deffkoptas but I don’t think the points changes will significantly change them.. essentially what I’m saying is orks are in a good place.. I think squigboys lost a step…but stormboys, Gretchin, trukks, beastsnaggas, nobs, warbosses, mozgrod, flashgitz are still great..
How so? From what I can see they've if anything become more viable now that Smasha Squigs are cheaper. Please correct me if I'm completely blind to what you're trying to explain.
Made some slight changes to my Oops All Squigs list following the dataslate. Fortunately only needed minor tweaks and got rid of the Mek guns that were clashing with the look of the rest of the list. Not meant to be hyper competitive, but a fun themed army built around a solidly competitive core.
List in spoilers for those interested.
Spoiler:
Squigosaur with Killchoppa (Warlord)
Beastboss
Beastboss
Smasha Squig with Follow Me Ladz
Smasha Squig
Smasha Squig
2x10 Snagga Boys
2x11 Gretchin
3x3 Squighogs with Bomb Squigs
2x3 Deffkoptas (Winged Squighogs)
1x10 Flash Gitz with Ammo Runt (Squig pelts instead of back banners)
1x Deff Dread with 2 Skorchas (Giant Robo Squig)
2x Trukks with Wreckin' Balls (Squig chariots)
1x Squiggoth
Squiggoth, Flash Gitz and Deff Dread go in reserve to come in from a flank. Snaggas in Trukks and the Follow Me Squigs are wave 1, followed by the Squigboss and the rest of the Hogs. The Grots are for me to pretend I'm trying to play to any objectives. The koptas either deep strike in or whizz up a flank to harass stuff.
Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, and if you happen to score some points on the way, then that's a moral victory
My list barely went 5 points up. I am not seeing nothing worthy of note. We also did not use dev wounds in any other way then to provide a bypass to high saves/invuln. Some things that are interesting.
deffkotptas at 100pts seem good.
Meka-dread went down 20pts is now 210pts
I am not sure the rigs have game, i can do more with 3 trucks? i was wrong before, would love to be again in this case.
ghaz stays in the shelf with the meganobz, and nobz went down just like nob on smasha. A buff to those 2. At this point meganobz need more rules.
buggies stay in the same place and they needed changes.. i am just don't see game with them with current rules. Another one i would kind of want to be wrong?
Anyway take it with a grain of salt. It's opinion. Honestly this slate targets the bottom and higher armies. I am ok with that. But i would love to see other sheet's for variety.
How so? From what I can see they've if anything become more viable now that Smasha Squigs are cheaper. Please correct me if I'm completely blind to what you're trying to explain.
Made some slight changes to my Oops All Squigs list following the dataslate. Fortunately only needed minor tweaks and got rid of the Mek guns that were clashing with the look of the rest of the list. Not meant to be hyper competitive, but a fun themed army built around a solidly competitive core.
List in spoilers for those interested.
Spoiler:
Squigosaur with Killchoppa (Warlord)
Beastboss
Beastboss
Smasha Squig with Follow Me Ladz
Smasha Squig
Smasha Squig
2x10 Snagga Boys
2x11 Gretchin
3x3 Squighogs with Bomb Squigs
2x3 Deffkoptas (Winged Squighogs)
1x10 Flash Gitz with Ammo Runt (Squig pelts instead of back banners)
1x Deff Dread with 2 Skorchas (Giant Robo Squig)
2x Trukks with Wreckin' Balls (Squig chariots)
1x Squiggoth
Squiggoth, Flash Gitz and Deff Dread go in reserve to come in from a flank. Snaggas in Trukks and the Follow Me Squigs are wave 1, followed by the Squigboss and the rest of the Hogs. The Grots are for me to pretend I'm trying to play to any objectives. The koptas either deep strike in or whizz up a flank to harass stuff.
Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, and if you happen to score some points on the way, then that's a moral victory
Mostly just killchoppa may not be auto include on the nob and I think knights, wraithknights and a bunch of other large vehicles took enough of a hit that I don’t think spamming squigriders is needed. I’m not saying they are nerfed directly just lost a step and aren’t the counter meta they were to some lists. You still might want to include a single unit of them but I don’t think we will see the current spam lists like we’ve been seeing with them competitively.
Trukk, beastboss, mek gunz and big morkanaut up. The rest diwn?
Mork went down from 350 to 330. But otherwise correct.
Forceride wrote:My list barely went 5 points up. I am not seeing nothing worthy of note. We also did not use dev wounds in any other way then to provide a bypass to high saves/invuln. Some things that are interesting.
deffkotptas at 100pts seem good.
Meka-dread went down 20pts is now 210pts
I am not sure the rigs have game, i can do more with 3 trucks? i was wrong before, would love to be again in this case.
ghaz stays in the shelf with the meganobz, and nobz went down just like nob on smasha. A buff to those 2. At this point meganobz need more rules.
buggies stay in the same place and the needed changes.. i am just don't see game with them with current rules. Another one i would kinda want to be wrong?
I am definitely camp Deffkopta now that they're 100 points for 3. Great interference unit.
I could maybe see use in taking a single Kill Rig if you'd already maxed out on Beastbosses and wanted a pseudo Beastboss/transport combo for a 4th Snagga unit. But otherwise I think they're still not ideal.
I think MANz just need a durability rule or a better damage output rule to become more viable at this point. Maybe a 5++ or an additional attack on the charge or something. I dunno.
Meka-Dread I could see possibly getting some use as a memey 'Naut replacement with twin Killkannons. Healing itself and giving itself +1 to hit while plugging away with 2d6+6 shots at S9 AP-2 D2. Worst case scenario it's cheap and durable enough to draw fire while it pesters things.
Mostly just killchoppa may not be auto include on the nob and I think knights, wraithknights and a bunch of other large vehicles took enough of a hit that I don’t think spamming squigriders is needed. I’m not saying they are nerfed directly just lost a step and aren’t the counter meta they were to some lists. You still might want to include a single unit of them but I don’t think we will see the current spam lists like we’ve been seeing with them competitively.
That's a fair assessment. Personally I think hogs+smashas are still some of our better units, but they are obviously meta dependent. They still remain a solid anti-vehicle unit though, which is my main reasoning for taking a lot of them (that and I've been pushing boys and equivalent around for over a decade now, I'm enjoying the change of scenery).
Tomsug wrote: MANz went down and MAboss and MAmek too. Together the pack goes down around 30p, which is nothing to sniff about!
Nobz and Warboss both down is also pretty crazy. Cheap crumpmachine!
Baldrukk is down for 15p, so the same for Flashgitz.
Snikrot and Zagstruk went down for 10/20p which makes us to reconsider their use with their units. But nothing game changing imho.
Buggies are stupid because of rules. You cannot save it by points.
IMPORTANT QUESTION IS, HOW THE OTHER ARMIES ARE AFFECTED? And how this changes affect us?
Well looking at our main hurdle, Aeldari, I think we'll do okay. Alex Petford's 1st place list from the All Stars heat 4 tournament on 26/08/2023, his list is now 2265 points and came with some significant nerfs to Towering, Overwatch and Mortal Wound mechanics.
The 2nd place list from the same event used by John Swallow is sitting at 2255 points with the same nerfs I mentioned above.
Into Custodes, Joel Larsson's 3rd place list from the Grimdark 14 Indexhammer tournament is now 2015 points, but lost two Custodian Wardens (he has 2x6 where the new max is 5 per squad).
Keko Jones' 3rd place list from the Iberian Perretes tournament is now 2040, but again lost two Wardens and now has to split his 10 Custodian Guard into 2 units.
Both Custodes lists have also bit hit by some rules stuff.
Now that both of our biggest threats have been hit and Devastating Wounds don't spill over, I think we're going to be fine going forward.
need to rethink the loadup of my trukks now. mainly went with snaggaz+BB... now warboss+5nobz look really juicy.
snaggaz+BB in trukk went up 30 points, which is a real shame... (and i really dont know why)
boyz+warboss in trukk went up 5 points
nobz+WB in trukk went down 5 points
Deffdread for 130 also looks quiet nice. and with moz and/or squigboss on the board, he may survive a turn or two!
Well looking at our main hurdle, Aeldari, I think we'll do okay.
Both Custodes lists have also bit hit by some rules stuff.
Now that both of our biggest threats have been hit and Devastating Wounds don't spill over, I think we're going to be fine going forward.
Great analysis, it's good to know the points differential on those top placing lists.
The Devastating Wounds change is huge, really huge. For Eldar they will still be very effective at nuking tanks and monsters off the field but will now have to put in more effort into removing squads. With the points hike they will be more manageable but I do suspect they'll still be taking top places because points hikes only go so far.
Custodes received some points adjustments which hurt for a very small unit count army, and the Arbites squad going up to minimum 10 (plus Voidsmen also getting a price hike) means the token backfield objective will likely switch back to SoS or whatever other Imperial Agent is points efficient. That said there are two very big changes that will likely knock them out of the top spot. The free strat change means they can't get Fight First on several units making them much more vulnerable to us in Melee. The second is that devastating wounds makes their detachment ability (FnP 4+++ vs MW) almost non-existent. Headwoppa, jaws and kombis suddenly become a lot more powerful against an army with a low model count who lost their major defensive ability.
Tomsug wrote: MANz went down and MAboss and MAmek too. Together the pack goes down around 30p, which is nothing to sniff about!
Nobz and Warboss both down is also pretty crazy. Cheap crumpmachine!
Baldrukk is down for 15p, so the same for Flashgitz.
Snikrot and Zagstruk went down for 10/20p which makes us to reconsider their use with their units. But nothing game changing imho.
Buggies are stupid because of rules. You cannot save it by points.
IMPORTANT QUESTION IS, HOW THE OTHER ARMIES ARE AFFECTED? And how this changes affect us?
Mainly custodes, gsc and imperial knights got neutered… deathwatch and thousand sons hit hard… eldar took a big hit but still likely the best codex.. tau was decent and got good buffs overall… orks was decent and got slightly cheaper overall. If I had to guess orks are probbaly in the top 5 with eldar and tau and maybe space marines and Tyranids when thier power creep codexs come out but until then eldar are probably on top.
Smasha Squigs getting cheaper is an interesting change. Likely to tip the usage of that unit quite a bit. The difference between the 4 vs the 3 was pretty significant, just only worth the cost with the Headwhoppa. Now though...
Custodes received some points adjustments which hurt for a very small unit count army, and the Arbites squad going up to minimum 10 (plus Voidsmen also getting a price hike) means the token backfield objective will likely switch back to SoS or whatever other Imperial Agent is points efficient. That said there are two very big changes that will likely knock them out of the top spot. The free strat change means they can't get Fight First on several units making them much more vulnerable to us in Melee. The second is that devastating wounds makes their detachment ability (FnP 4+++ vs MW) almost non-existent. Headwoppa, jaws and kombis suddenly become a lot more powerful against an army with a low model count who lost their major defensive ability.
the devastating wounds change is a massive nerf for custodes... no "free" 4++ for them anymore generally very good for us
LunarSol wrote: Smasha Squigs getting cheaper is an interesting change. Likely to tip the usage of that unit quite a bit. The difference between the 4 vs the 3 was pretty significant, just only worth the cost with the Headwhoppa. Now though...
Honestly, 170 point for 3 Hogs, a Smasha and a Bomb Squig is so good. The Headwoppa is just icing on the cake really.
Custodes received some points adjustments which hurt for a very small unit count army, and the Arbites squad going up to minimum 10 (plus Voidsmen also getting a price hike) means the token backfield objective will likely switch back to SoS or whatever other Imperial Agent is points efficient. That said there are two very big changes that will likely knock them out of the top spot. The free strat change means they can't get Fight First on several units making them much more vulnerable to us in Melee. The second is that devastating wounds makes their detachment ability (FnP 4+++ vs MW) almost non-existent. Headwoppa, jaws and kombis suddenly become a lot more powerful against an army with a low model count who lost their major defensive ability.
the devastating wounds change is a massive nerf for custodes... no 4++ against them anymore generally very good for us
It basically doesn't do anything to us outside of like.... 2 or 3 abilities. Most of our devastating wounds stuff was only ever going into single targets anyway.
Surprisingly my 6+ trukk list got more expensive with 10+ points. Which is slightly annoying considering there doesnt seem to be a reason to it being more expensive.
But its also not a problem, as ill just remove supa cybork from my Weirdboy.
Over all, as with all balance slates for orks, some things dont make sense at all (Buggies for instance not getting any love, and the stompa being 800 points still) But over all it looks good. We werent nerf'ed when everyone else got hit. thats good.
Considering crons we’re probably the closest to us tier wise albeit with better tourney results and they got hit with a good amount of points nerfs I’d say orks made out pretty good overall in this balance. Stodes, knights, and eldar all nerfed pretty good which were our hard counters.
These point changes feel like "Just make adjustments so it looks like we care"
Actually struggling units? not touched. Decent units and/or good units? buffed....randomly.... Beastboss hit pretty hard for some reason Morkanaut actually went down, dont forget it already got mega nerfed for some dumb reason awhile ago so it was WAY more expensive than the Gork.
Only adjustment that feels like it was thought about was Trukks and Mekgunz. Trukks are honestly weirdly cheap and Mekgunz did feel slightly undercosted imo.
Not a damn thing to buggies or planes. Grots got buffed though....yaknow the unit literally everyone brings somehow got buffed lol....not complaining but waat?
Planes will get no love anytime soon. I don' t feel that the planes of any army are welcome in the game right now. Maybe different rules?
Buggies are definitely ruined by stupid rules. The best you can do by reducing points is create cheap backfield indirect camping squiglauncha.
1. The problem with the buggies is - they are too slow and on too bloody big bases.
Hard to move
Hard to hide
Cannot take too much on the table.
The only moment when the buggies worked nice fine the Speedmob AOR with advance without any penalties. Auto advance 6” will be even better.
Buggies needs to be faster to deal with their huge bases to be able to go anywhere. Solve it and half of the problem done.
2. Their weapons sucks. They need more dakka. Much more.
3. Price reduction is not an issue, because of the big bases you simply cannot have a buggy for 50p because you won' t be able to put your army in deployment
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: These point changes feel like "Just make adjustments so it looks like we care"
Actually struggling units? not touched.
Decent units and/or good units? buffed....randomly....
Beastboss hit pretty hard for some reason
Morkanaut actually went down, dont forget it already got mega nerfed for some dumb reason awhile ago so it was WAY more expensive than the Gork.
Only adjustment that feels like it was thought about was Trukks and Mekgunz. Trukks are honestly weirdly cheap and Mekgunz did feel slightly undercosted imo.
Not a damn thing to buggies or planes.
Grots got buffed though....yaknow the unit literally everyone brings somehow got buffed lol....not complaining but waat?
Naah it looks pretty logical to me. Before we was forced to buy Beastboss and Beastsnagga boyz, now we ' re forced to budy warboss and nobz and the old stuff. Makes absolutely sence. BB band comes back with the codex.
Naah it looks pretty logical to me. Before we was forced to buy Beastboss and Beastsnagga boyz, now we ' re forced to budy warboss and nobz and the old stuff. Makes absolutely sence. BB band comes back with the codex.
Not like we're forced to. They got just like 15 pt cheaper or Smth like that. You can still run bare bones boyz in your trukks.
Tomsug wrote: Buggies needs to be faster to deal with their huge bases to be able to go anywhere. Solve it and half of the problem done.
The traffic jam issue has gotten much better in 10th though, as unstable ground has disappeared and you can now move through friendly non-vehicles - which includes squighogs and the wartrike.
2. Their weapons sucks. They need more dakka. Much more.
Yes. Something like lethal hits would be nice. Most of them should be assault, too.
3. Price reduction is not an issue, because of the big bases you simply cannot have a buggy for 50p because you won' t be able to put your army in deployment
Agree. In my opinion an extra point of toughness would be great. A measly landspeeder has T8-9. A buggy should be in that range as well.
Naah it looks pretty logical to me. Before we was forced to buy Beastboss and Beastsnagga boyz, now we ' re forced to budy warboss and nobz and the old stuff. Makes absolutely sence. BB band comes back with the codex.
Not like we're forced to. They got just like 15 pt cheaper or Smth like that. You can still run bare bones boyz in your trukks.
I agree. I think the reduction for nobz was at least partially a counterweight to the trukk nerf, as they clearly wanted to hit snagga trukks but were fine with other uses for trukks, which included nobz, burnas boyz and flash gits.
And honestly, all of your should be around for long enough to know that a data slate is not going to address every single struggling model. GW has literally told us that they don't really address models which see almost no play, as they have no data on them.
The only change that puzzles me is why gretchin have gotten cheaper, maybe some game-wide change, who knows.
the devastating wounds change is a massive nerf for custodes... no 4++ against them anymore generally very good for us
It basically doesn't do anything to us outside of like.... 2 or 3 abilities. Most of our devastating wounds stuff was only ever going into single targets anyway.
Nonono Custodes got fnp against MW. Since dev wounds are no longer MW, they won't get their fnp save.
So killchoppa vs custodes and other dev wounds methods got really buffed (basically double the DMG output)
And since custodes are one of the armies we really struggle with... great news
Automatically Appended Next Post: @snaggaz and BB price increase...
Were they really used that much? I mean, I was getting quite some flag here for suggesting snaggaz with BB were better than boys + WB (in trukks)
What do you guys suggest putting into a trukk with 5nobz +WB?
- another unit of nobz?
- burnaz?
- meganobz?
- nothing?
RedNoak wrote: What do you guys suggest putting into a trukk with 5nobz +WB?
- another unit of nobz?
- burnaz?
- meganobz?
- nothing?
Nothing IMO. The 9 out of 10 times, the trukk is going to be blown mile high anyways (which is exactly what you want, as there is no efficient way to do so), so any other unit inside will not enjoy any benefits from being in it.
I'd rather add a unit to the list that brings value by itself and pick it up when the trukk doesn't serve other purpose (can't help with scoring objectives or block LoS/movement).
Nonono Custodes got fnp against MW. Since dev wounds are no longer MW, they won't get their fnp save.
So killchoppa vs custodes and other dev wounds methods got really buffed (basically double the DMG output)
And since custodes are one of the armies we really struggle with... great news
[
They lose the FNP against Devastating Wounds, however we lose the spillover, so we're probably going to end up overkilling a few models rather than smashing through whole squads.
RedNoak wrote: ]
Automatically Appended Next Post: @snaggaz and BB price increase...
Were they really used that much? I mean, I was getting quite some flag here for suggesting snaggaz with BB were better than boys + WB (in trukks)
What do you guys suggest putting into a trukk with 5nobz +WB?
- another unit of nobz?
- burnaz?
- meganobz?
- nothing?
It depends. What do you have that would benefit from hitching a ride further upfield vs walking?
Do have anything you think would benefit from sitting in the truck & using it as a mobile firing platform/pillbox?
You get another truck to make action block and be a general nuisance and you have 2 different units forcing fire into both instead of all your eggs in one basket.
I've got a game against a melee oriented MEQ army coming up and I'm curious what loadout people have been using for their Kommandos.
I think I'm most likely going to use them to harass a backfield objective unit or take a midfield objective early depending on the layout. Has anyone found the 2x special shootas worthwhile going into T4 bodies (or T3) targets?
The Red Hobbit wrote: I've got a game against a melee oriented MEQ army coming up and I'm curious what loadout people have been using for their Kommandos.
I think I'm most likely going to use them to harass a backfield objective unit or take a midfield objective early depending on the layout. Has anyone found the 2x special shootas worthwhile going into T4 bodies (or T3) targets?
I've tried to make them work, but they are simply lacking. Too little range, to little hits, too little AP.
Their biggest issues is that you trade away a choppa, which is actually a rather decent weapon that allows you to threaten and kill models like MEQ which just shrug off close combat weapons. The burna had to go from my squads for the same reason.
In other words, my preferred loadout is PK, ram and rokkit, choppas for the other 7. If the unit is actively moving into melee for the Waaagh! turn, I pluck the rokkit out early. If they are sitting on an objective or moving around where they don't need the extra choppa, I pull it last. I have never regretted bringing the extra rokkits once.
Orks, can you help my friend out? Now that the dataslate has settled down - what are good shooting support units in 10th edotion? My friend has one truck with flash gits and badrukk. But nothing else. What is needed?
That makes a lot of sense, Rokkits continue to be a solid choice. I'm going to mull over whether or not to keep the Burna, since I may need an Overwatch option.
Niiai wrote: Orks, can you help my friend out? Now that the dataslate has settled down - what are good shooting support units in 10th edotion? My friend has one truck with flash gits and badrukk. But nothing else. What is needed?
Flash gitz/badrukk is really the only unit worth taking for dedicated shooting. Mek gunz were decent at their price before but got an almost 25% point increase so they're overpriced now imo. Lootas are a better backfield obj holder in place of mek gunz now I'd say and could end up being a really good unit to spam in the near future if we get a great shooting detachment in our codex, but right now I'd just keep them in 1-2 min 5 man units.
Yeah, unfortunately, the Dakka portion of the Ork army is sorely lacking at the moment barring Badrukk and his crew, where bizarrely Badrukk went down in points so now he's even more auto-take. The closest to it being somewhat decent are Rokkit Killa Kanz since they can potentially ignore cover rather consistently with their ability but they're very vulnerable to most weapons and will die very quickly once opponents catch on to their damage potential.
Niiai wrote: Orks, can you help my friend out? Now that the dataslate has settled down - what are good shooting support units in 10th edotion? My friend has one truck with flash gits and badrukk. But nothing else. What is needed?
Do not listen to those who will claim there are no good shooting options for Orks.
Look to:
Grot tanks, grot Mega-Tanks, Mek Gunz, Kanz (with rokkits) and anything with a crap load of weapons/firepower & paired with a simple Mek.
Concerning Mek Gunz now being over-priced.... Maybe.
But that doesn't mean the need for ranged firepower/anti-tank has lessened any.
Niiai wrote: Orks, can you help my friend out? Now that the dataslate has settled down - what are good shooting support units in 10th edotion? My friend has one truck with flash gits and badrukk. But nothing else. What is needed?
That is the best we have.
Also solid choices are Grot Tanks, Kans with Rokkits.
Maybe Mek Gunz
Maybe Meka Dread with 2 killkannons
ccs wrote: Concerning Mek Gunz now being over-priced.... Maybe.
But that doesn't mean the need for ranged firepower/anti-tank has lessened any.
Mmm debatable. Most ork lists doing good pre-balance would completely forego shooting and/or just have badrukks crew plus 2-3 solo mek gunz which were only there for backfield screening and being our tankiest cheap option to hold the back obj. Orks just flat out have the worst shooting in the game right now next to daemons, though they can just ally their shortcomings if needed. Flashgitz wouldn’t even be good without badrukk, he’s really the only git holding together for us. :’(
Niiai wrote: Orks, can you help my friend out? Now that the dataslate has settled down - what are good shooting support units in 10th edotion? My friend has one truck with flash gits and badrukk. But nothing else. What is needed?
Flash Gitz are leaps and bound better than any other shooting option we have, with our without Badrukk.
Mek Gunz are still good. They got more expensive, but they still cost next to nothing for reasonable output.
Killa Kanz/Deffkoptas/Grot Tanks/Grot Mega Tanks are all solid choices. Kanz ignore cover, Grot tanks get more volume of shots, Koptas get twin linked and can really get to where they need to go. All solid choices.
Lootas aren't the best but they're now soooo cheap they're at least worth considering, if for nothing more than squatting on an objective and taking pot shots.
Twin Killkannon Meka Dread. On paper it looks solidly alright with some Mek based shenanigans. I haven't actually tested it, so who knows.
We have a number of other units like the buggies and the kill tank that are close to being decent shooting options, but just need a little nudge.
Niiai wrote: Orks, can you help my friend out? Now that the dataslate has settled down - what are good shooting support units in 10th edotion? My friend has one truck with flash gits and badrukk. But nothing else. What is needed?
Do not listen to those who will claim there are no good shooting options for Orks.
Look to:
Grot tanks, grot Mega-Tanks, Mek Gunz, Kanz (with rokkits) and anything with a crap load of weapons/firepower & paired with a simple Mek.
Concerning Mek Gunz now being over-priced.... Maybe.
But that doesn't mean the need for ranged firepower/anti-tank has lessened any.
I know being off-meta is your shtick, but I'm going to challenge this.
Grot tanks are absolutely great, I give you that, no argument from my side. Five rokkits on 20 T6 3+ wounds with an ability that mitigate rokkit's short range for 155? Hell yeah. But with the sword of Damocles hanging over all non-titanic FW models, I don't think anyone should invest in those units unless they really want them for their display case or have easy access to a 3D printer. GW has squatted half the FW marine range without any advance notice, and more and more units are either completely neutered or disappearing from the legends documents each time they are revised. I frankly don't expect grot tanks to be around for 11th.
The megatank is just a more tanky version of the scrapjet and while a good package as a whole, two rokkits is hardly what one can claim to be good shooting. If the scrapjet isn't considered good shooting, neither is the megatank.
Kanz are great at shooting, but not at surviving. S12 weapons aren't super common, but many armies at least have a few of them - and when they do, shooting kanz is the absolutely jackpot for them as the wound on 2s and a pair of decent damage rolls can easily take out whole models. Plasma and melta, the redheaded step-children of 10th are brought in good numbers by some armies, simply because they have no other option to stop a knight or a landraider or simply because they are free. These absolutely rip through kanz, and we aren't even considering units which actually good at killing them. If kanz were ~32 points like grot tanks are, I'd have no problem with 6-9 of them dying in my opponent's first turn, but they just aren't durable enough to justify a single rokkit for 50 points, ignore cover or no.
As for "crap load of weapons/firepower & paired with a simple Mek":
- I love my battlewagons, but even with a mek their shooting is nothing to write home about. The killkannon is cute for blowing up a marine or two, but unless you are fighting unarmored hordes the lobba and 4x BS will rarely amount to any damage. If you need the full transport capacity and use a kannon or zzapgun instead, their shooting is pretty much on the level of a mob of kommandoz. Meks still synergize extremely well with BW because it also buffs their melee attack, and because their wounds are not trivial to remove, so 2 or 3 repairs on a BW go a long way to keep it around.
- Buffed wagon/trukk with flash gits inside is decent, you just get out when you really need those lethal hits.
- Buffed wagon/trukk with lootas is a waste of time. Their ability is what makes them worth shooting at all, so keep them on foot and get more lootas instead of a transport. People start picking off your 10ppm lootas? Good. - rigs don't have enough shots to be worth buffing IMO, and it's difficult to keep up as they can't transport the mek.
- tripple/quad kmb dreads? Maybe. You can get 3 KMB with re-rolls and 12 lootas stapled to them for less though. In addition I would totally zap my own dread for 9 MW in one turn - A buffed Morkanaut is fun and gets stuff dead, but is somewhere in the ballpark of 100 points too much. They pay way too many points for their over the top klaw that has the potential to one-shot a knight, but then fails to kill a unit of bladeguard. The mek also can't buff the naut any further during a Waaagh!.
- KMB, Snazzwagon, Squigbuggy all have okish guns with lots of shots, but they really struggle to kill anything worthwhile, and +1 to hit doesn't change that.
- SJD and scrapjet are better targets for meks, but neither really allows you to blow away a target you need gone.
- Wazzbom is way too expensive and you can't reliably plonk it down next to a mek. If you make it work, it might barely be worth the points, but that's a big if.
- I guess a stompa would work, no idea if it is worth its points.
- kanz, mek guns, koptas and grot tanks don't work well with meks as they repair a model, not a unit.
So that essentially leaves us with grot tanks, maybe koptas and mek guns as decent shooting options. Kanz, SJD, KMB dreads, wazzbom and naut (in that order) at least tried. All others are pretty much on the same level as any ork mob who happens to bring a KMB/rokkit along, the might be decent all-rounders or have great abilities, but they won't pull their weight in a gunline.
And note that I don't really play against tournament grade lists or even tournament grade players. I'm one of the best players in my group, but outside of those veterans who still build lists as if lascannon could kill a tank like it did in 4th, no one has any issues tearing appart kanz who moved forward to shoot something.
That's a very solid analysis Jidmah. The only thing I'll contest is the viability of the Kill Rig, but specifically as an anti-vehicle unit. D3 autohitting shots at S12 AP-3 Dd6 from the Wurrtower is actually pretty decent for what it is. It's swingy as hell and certainly should never be relied on because of the number of shots, but sometimes it will crack open a hard target.
It's by no means a good shooting unit, but it's a unit that doesn't really need babysitting by a Mek, and fills other roles in the list. It's more of a melee transport that will occasionally tear open a tank with the Wurrtower before charging what comes spilling out.
But in all seriousness, right now I'd suggest we probably don't need that many shooting units. A block of Gitz (preferably with Badrukk) and one or two supplementary units of Kanz/koptas/KMKs/Grot Tanks is all you're likely to need until we get a Dakkawaaagh detachment in the codex.
Lots of our shooty units are right on the cusp of being good, and I'd imagine that just being given one rule that either impacts how often we hit or how often those hits wound is all most of them need.
Oh, I absolutely like the kill rig and it's probably a good unit when you look at the combined transport, shooting, melee and buff abilities.
But it's a jack of all trades, not a shooting unit and a mek is wasted on it.
In general, I would abandon the "babysitter" mentality when running meks. Mine bounce around the army helping where they are needed most - sometimes repairing a buggy is more valuable than adding +1 to hit to a battlewagon who is going to shooting a sub-optimal target anyways, plus they can help grabbing objectives or being in places for secondaries near the end of the game - lone operative tends to keep them alive a lot longer than they should be.
Thanks for the breakdown Jidmah (and Afrodyctal); nice to have your thoughts now the new points etc are out. I'm ten weeks out from a GT and looking at what I need to model; lootas might well be on the list.
Interesting re: meks. In your opinion, if I'm advancing a gorkanaut up on T1 for a T2 waaargh charge, is it worth having the mek on board, to heal it, and buff it T3 if it's still alive?
PaddyMick wrote: Thanks for the breakdown Jidmah (and Afrodyctal); nice to have your thoughts now the new points etc are out. I'm ten weeks out from a GT and looking at what I need to model; lootas might well be on the list.
Interesting re: meks. In your opinion, if I'm advancing a gorkanaut up on T1 for a T2 waaargh charge, is it worth having the mek on board, to heal it, and buff it T3 if it's still alive?
If you advance and charge, your mek that had to be within 3" by the end of its movement phase will be sitting alone somewhere in the middle of the board, where it will most likely be casually shot.
One turn of +1 to hit is not worth 45 points
Yeah, generally i try to discourage FW stuff in my area. Not because i dont like FW, but because of the looming "discontinued" fear. If you already got it, sure use it whatever. Dont buy it. I'm still extremely pissed off the Supakannon Wagon is legends now, since i have 3 of them (1 official, 2 Kromlechs)
Mek Gunz arent bad at 55pts, they just arent amazeballs good. The bigger issue with Mek Gunz is if you arent a kitbash savvy person or willing (or allowed) to 3D print, they are EXPENSIVE AS HELL Normally, i try to buy some of the original model so i can claim i 3D print for variety. F the mek gun, never buying that kit. Love the unit, hate the price.
When in doubt, scratch build! Grot tanks can be made pretty easily with Advance wars papercraft tanks. Print em out, glue them to plasticard (Or just thick card) add some details/ weapons and boom ya got yerself some grot tanks with a nice chibi style. I'll post a pic some time soon.
cody.d. wrote: When in doubt, scratch build! Grot tanks can be made pretty easily with Advance wars papercraft tanks. Print em out, glue them to plasticard (Or just thick card) add some details/ weapons and boom ya got yerself some grot tanks with a nice chibi style. I'll post a pic some time soon.
Scratch building is still a lot of time, effort and money(for materials) invested into a unit that might cease to exist tomorrow.
Niiai wrote: Orks, can you help my friend out? Now that the dataslate has settled down - what are good shooting support units in 10th edotion? My friend has one truck with flash gits and badrukk. But nothing else. What is needed?
Do not listen to those who will claim there are no good shooting options for Orks.
Look to:
Grot tanks, grot Mega-Tanks, Mek Gunz, Kanz (with rokkits) and anything with a crap load of weapons/firepower & paired with a simple Mek.
Concerning Mek Gunz now being over-priced.... Maybe.
But that doesn't mean the need for ranged firepower/anti-tank has lessened any.
I know being off-meta is your shtick, but I'm going to challenge this.
Grot tanks are absolutely great, I give you that, no argument from my side. Five rokkits on 20 T6 3+ wounds with an ability that mitigate rokkit's short range for 155? Hell yeah. But with the sword of Damocles hanging over all non-titanic FW models, I don't think anyone should invest in those units unless they really want them for their display case or have easy access to a 3D printer. GW has squatted half the FW marine range without any advance notice, and more and more units are either completely neutered or disappearing from the legends documents each time they are revised. I frankly don't expect grot tanks to be around for 11th.
The megatank is just a more tanky version of the scrapjet and while a good package as a whole, two rokkits is hardly what one can claim to be good shooting. If the scrapjet isn't considered good shooting, neither is the megatank.
Kanz are great at shooting, but not at surviving. S12 weapons aren't super common, but many armies at least have a few of them - and when they do, shooting kanz is the absolutely jackpot for them as the wound on 2s and a pair of decent damage rolls can easily take out whole models. Plasma and melta, the redheaded step-children of 10th are brought in good numbers by some armies, simply because they have no other option to stop a knight or a landraider or simply because they are free. These absolutely rip through kanz, and we aren't even considering units which actually good at killing them. If kanz were ~32 points like grot tanks are, I'd have no problem with 6-9 of them dying in my opponent's first turn, but they just aren't durable enough to justify a single rokkit for 50 points, ignore cover or no.
As for "crap load of weapons/firepower & paired with a simple Mek":
- I love my battlewagons, but even with a mek their shooting is nothing to write home about. The killkannon is cute for blowing up a marine or two, but unless you are fighting unarmored hordes the lobba and 4x BS will rarely amount to any damage. If you need the full transport capacity and use a kannon or zzapgun instead, their shooting is pretty much on the level of a mob of kommandoz. Meks still synergize extremely well with BW because it also buffs their melee attack, and because their wounds are not trivial to remove, so 2 or 3 repairs on a BW go a long way to keep it around.
- Buffed wagon/trukk with flash gits inside is decent, you just get out when you really need those lethal hits.
- Buffed wagon/trukk with lootas is a waste of time. Their ability is what makes them worth shooting at all, so keep them on foot and get more lootas instead of a transport. People start picking off your 10ppm lootas? Good. - rigs don't have enough shots to be worth buffing IMO, and it's difficult to keep up as they can't transport the mek.
- tripple/quad kmb dreads? Maybe. You can get 3 KMB with re-rolls and 12 lootas stapled to them for less though. In addition I would totally zap my own dread for 9 MW in one turn - A buffed Morkanaut is fun and gets stuff dead, but is somewhere in the ballpark of 100 points too much. They pay way too many points for their over the top klaw that has the potential to one-shot a knight, but then fails to kill a unit of bladeguard. The mek also can't buff the naut any further during a Waaagh!.
- KMB, Snazzwagon, Squigbuggy all have okish guns with lots of shots, but they really struggle to kill anything worthwhile, and +1 to hit doesn't change that.
- SJD and scrapjet are better targets for meks, but neither really allows you to blow away a target you need gone.
- Wazzbom is way too expensive and you can't reliably plonk it down next to a mek. If you make it work, it might barely be worth the points, but that's a big if.
- I guess a stompa would work, no idea if it is worth its points.
- kanz, mek guns, koptas and grot tanks don't work well with meks as they repair a model, not a unit.
So that essentially leaves us with grot tanks, maybe koptas and mek guns as decent shooting options. Kanz, SJD, KMB dreads, wazzbom and naut (in that order) at least tried. All others are pretty much on the same level as any ork mob who happens to bring a KMB/rokkit along, the might be decent all-rounders or have great abilities, but they won't pull their weight in a gunline.
And note that I don't really play against tournament grade lists or even tournament grade players. I'm one of the best players in my group, but outside of those veterans who still build lists as if lascannon could kill a tank like it did in 4th, no one has any issues tearing appart kanz who moved forward to shoot something.
Bursta Kannon does look good. I could see a Kill Tank loaded with a Warboss+Nobz charging straight up the middle of the board being both and possibly viable for all of like, one game
The main issue I can see is that with a Baneblade sized footprint it can be hard to do anything with it, and while it's fairly tough, it's going to die quick to dedicated AT weapons. So while it might lurk near the middle of the board and threaten stuff that comes within range, it's very much a sitting duck and will probably be the quickest 300 points of models you'll ever lose.
I hope Jidmah do not kill me for this, but for those, who do not want to be competitive with dyno BS units, I forced my 3d printing genius buddy to do some STL alternative of mecha riders I call Ork Dread Riders So you can be competitive even without dynos and other kind of AoS feelings And I' ve converted this STLs even more anyone interested, check myminifactory etc.
Tomsug wrote: I hope Jidmah do not kill me for this, but for those, who do not want to be competitive with dyno BS units, I forced my 3d printing genius buddy to do some STL alternative of mecha riders I call Ork Dread Riders So you can be competitive even without dynos and other kind of AoS feelings And I' ve converted this STLs even more anyone interested, check myminifactory etc.
In case this cross the rules of the groupe too much, feel free to delete me Jidmah, but I' m such a happy from their existence, I need to share
Thanks for sharing! Definitely a different take on the mechanized version of Beast Snaggas, personally I find it hilarious it's basically a ridable power klaw, so two green thumbs up from me!
Tomsug wrote: I hope Jidmah do not kill me for this, but for those, who do not want to be competitive with dyno BS units, I forced my 3d printing genius buddy to do some STL alternative of mecha riders I call Ork Dread Riders So you can be competitive even without dynos and other kind of AoS feelings And I' ve converted this STLs even more anyone interested, check myminifactory etc.
In case this cross the rules of the groupe too much, feel free to delete me Jidmah, but I' m such a happy from their existence, I need to share
Thanks for sharing! Definitely a different take on the mechanized version of Beast Snaggas, personally I find it hilarious it's basically a ridable power klaw, so two green thumbs up from me!
I'm trying to make my beastsnaggas look more like metal/punk/rock fans. I'm fine with the regular snagga boyz and the squigs (got burna and pilot heads on all of the riders though), but neither the kill rig nor the characters particularly strike my fancy.
My kill rig is supposed to look somewhat similar to the speaker tower trukk from Mad Max Fury Road, complete with the goff rokka as Wurrboy, and I got some members of the Artel rockband to use them as beastboss and painboss.
Sadly the guy printing the rig for me is busy with life (and the model has proven to be a bitch to print), so I'm still waiting for him to finish it.
Jidmah wrote: I'm trying to make my beastsnaggas look more like metal/punk/rock fans. I'm fine with the regular snagga boyz and the squigs (got burna and pilot heads on all of the riders though), but neither the kill rig nor the characters particularly strike my fancy.
My kill rig is supposed to look somewhat similar to the speaker tower trukk from Mad Max Fury Road, complete with the goff rokka as Wurrboy, and I got some members of the Artel rockband to use them as beastboss and painboss.
Sadly the guy printing the rig for me is busy with life (and the model has proven to be a bitch to print), so I'm still waiting for him to finish it.
Yeah, imho huge part of ork community has this in their mind! There was ahuge Mad Max wave! Why GW did not surfed on this wave? My guess is they are so perplexed from their copyright policy they was too afraid to design anything that looks like something….
I have this rokkers too for the same pourpose. 2 rigs are on the way. One is called “waaagh FM” and the second one “waaaagh TV”…
Whats the current take of Deff Dreads? Any good? 3x claw + rockets?
Looking at them at a decently tanky option with some high-ish strength, Dam3 weapons they seem interesting.
8" move is also a nice treat. Battleshock in melee is... something?
Tollwut wrote: Whats the current take of Deff Dreads? Any good? 3x claw + rockets?
Looking at them at a decently tanky option with some high-ish strength, Dam3 weapons they seem interesting.
8" move is also a nice treat. Battleshock in melee is... something?
I'm using one with 2 Klaws and 2 Skorchas, coming in from reserves alongside a Squiggoth full of Flash Gitz and I'm really enjoying it. It hits pretty hard, is decently fast and the battleshock ability is situationally nice when it goes off.
The main issue is that it will never survive a walk up the board unless you've got something far scarier to take shots for it.
It's certainly much better now it's had a points drop.
You can make them shooty with rokkits or KMBs, but Kans are the better option if you want stompy and shooty.
PaddyMick wrote:Thanks for the breakdown Jidmah (and Afrodyctal); nice to have your thoughts now the new points etc are out. I'm ten weeks out from a GT and looking at what I need to model; lootas might well be on the list.
I ran 20 Lootas in my last game and they were an absolute blast! I'm currently putting together a 3rd squad for my next game. Jidmah is right, inside the Trukk Lootas are pointless and the whole setup is too costly, their ability is so valuable so leave them on foot.
Also thanks to whoever reminded me a few pages ago you can't Overwatch while embarked, I almost did so but then remembered I could not at the last second.
cody.d. wrote:When in doubt, scratch build! Grot tanks can be made pretty easily with Advance wars papercraft tanks. Print em out, glue them to plasticard (Or just thick card) add some details/ weapons and boom ya got yerself some grot tanks with a nice chibi style. I'll post a pic some time soon.
I'm really interested in seeing these. I saw some grot tanks in a video recently that looked a lot like the cheap plastic tanks you get at the dollar store with some Orky bits slapped on.
Tomsug wrote:I hope Jidmah do not kill me for this, but for those, who do not want to be competitive with dyno BS units, I forced my 3d printing genius buddy to do some STL alternative of mecha riders I call Ork Dread Riders So you can be competitive even without dynos and other kind of AoS feelings And I' ve converted this STLs even more anyone interested, check myminifactory etc.
These look awesome. I'm not a fan of the beastsnaggas aesthetic (but I admit Mozrog is a fun model) and these make for an excellent replacement. Are physical versions of these sold anywhere?
Grimskul wrote: When you guys are running Lootas, are you just taking min squads of 5 on objectives or are you taking 10 man squads to max out more shots?
So far I've always run 10 because I wanted enough firepower to make their firing lanes threatening. While their average output isn't that awesome, the scary profiles and potential damage makes people not want to put units into their crosshairs. Make sure to point out to opponents that deff gunz are S8 now When running 5 it always feels like "this could have been a mek gun or gretchin unit instead".
Grimskul wrote: When you guys are running Lootas, are you just taking min squads of 5 on objectives or are you taking 10 man squads to max out more shots?
So far I've always run 10 because I wanted enough firepower to make their firing lanes threatening. While their average output isn't that awesome, the scary profiles and potential damage makes people not want to put units into their crosshairs. Make sure to point out to opponents that deff gunz are S8 now When running 5 it always feels like "this could have been a mek gun or gretchin unit instead".
Gotcha, thanks for the feedback as always Jidmah. I was inclined towards 10 man units so I'm glad my gut instinct was right since I figured that as a unit that hangs back and won't be in rapid fire range in most games needed the extra shots so it doesn't feel like you're wasting a turn shooting. Do you stick with KMB because of their damage or do big shootas for the spannerz have some utility with their longer range?
KMB all the way. The big shoota just averages a single hit with 0 AP at long distance, so it's not even worth thinking about.
Whether you use rokkits or KMB is really a matter of taste. I absolutely prefer fixed shots and d6 damage over fixed damage and d3(+blast) shots, but YMMV.
Essentially the two KMB have outdamaged the deff guns for me in almost all games as, unlike burna spannas, the benefit from the unit rule. Six shots KMB are pretty scary to many things, especially if they happen to be close to an objective.
Don't be afraid to move those deff gunz to line up good shots with your KMB. I have had games where my lootas didn't get the heavy bonus once, and they still did well.
Do you think it is competitive enough ? Any thoughts ?
thank you boyz !
I wouldn't bother with follow me on a warboss that is riding a trukk. Pick one or the other, a follow me! unit can easily keep up with trukks. Outside of that, looks solid.
Do you think it is competitive enough ? Any thoughts ?
thank you boyz !
You could possibly drop one Smasha Squig, give the remaining one Follow Me Ladz, and merge the 2x3 hogs into 6. They'll keep pace with the Trukks that way and the combined charge of 15 Nobs, 3 Warbosses, and a fully loaded Hog unit will be really nasty.
You'll then have about 60 points to play with for other scoring unit options.
And what do you mean by shockboys?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jiro wrote: Anyone else a little more unsure about beastsnagga boyz with a beast boss? 5 Nobz plus warboss seem a much better deal for 35pts less
They seem alright without a Beastboss as a scoring unit more than anything else. They'll bully things like guardsmen, guardians and smaller marine units off of things but nothing tougher.
But I'd probably go with Grots or stormboys instead if they're only a scoring unit.
thori wrote: oups sorry , shockboyz means stormboyz and its 3*5
I thought they would be, no worries.
You could do as I recommended and fill the 60 points with more Grots, a Mek gun, or even a unit of Burna boys to stow away in one of the Nobz Trukks to bail out and snag a midfield objective/try to strip a few wounds before the Nobz charge in.
Or you could drop Follow Me Ladz, Mozrog, and a Warboss. By going to 1x5 Nobz with Warboss in a trukk and 1x10 Nobz with Warboss in a trukk, you have a spare trukk and enough points to get 10 Flash Gitz and Badrukk, with enough points to put a Super Cybork Body on a character.
Even as is, the list looks fine other than Follow Me Ladz on a character that's not really benefiting from it due to being in a transport.
Ive never heard that before. If im not mistaken it says you can only use firing deck during your shooting phase, but the overwatch also states it happens as its your shooting phase, so i dont see the conflict. It doesnt come up too often that i would want to overwatch my flash gitz from a transport but it has happened before. Been to a few local tournaments and ive never heard a ruling stating this isnt possible. If its not possible though, it seems more like an oversight rather than anything.
Do you think it is competitive enough ? Any thoughts ?
thank you boyz !
I like this list a lot however I do think it could do with some more grots to hold points.
I personally feel a unit designed to control the mid table would also be good such as MA Nobz (which are pretty tough given pts reductions to both them and Mek in MA plus changes to Dev Wounds) or some Flash Gitz or even both.
Heres a variation on the above lists (also 2k) to give some food for thought:
Kaptin Badrukk [80pts] Mozrog Skragbad [195pts] Big Mek in Mega Armour with KFF [85pts]: Nob on Smasha Squig [60pts] Warboss [65pts]: Attack squig, Power klaw
Warboss [65pts]: Attack squig, Power klaw
Warboss [65pts]: Attack squig, Power klaw
You lose the Squigboss, 1 unit of stormboyz and a Nob on Smasha Squig and both units of snagga boyz and you run 1 large unit of squighogs instead of 2 smaller ones. However you gain + 1 grot unit, a difficult to remove MA unit to hold mid and Badrukk + the ladz to give you some ranged threat.
Ive never heard that before. If im not mistaken it says you can only use firing deck during your shooting phase, but the overwatch also states it happens as its your shooting phase, so i dont see the conflict. It doesnt come up too often that i would want to overwatch my flash gitz from a transport but it has happened before. Been to a few local tournaments and ive never heard a ruling stating this isnt possible. If its not possible though, it seems more like an oversight rather than anything.
Out of phase rule.
Can't use rules in certain phase except in that phase.
Same reason say screamer killer can't force battleshock test with overwatch. It's "in your shooting phase".
It's in rules commentary. I recommend reading it as it has quite a lot rules one would even expect in core rules. It's not document you should skip.
Jiro wrote: MA Nobz (which are pretty tough given pts reductions to both them and Mek in MA plus changes to Dev Wounds)
I feel like this is potentially worth discussion.
Pre-points cut, 5 MANz with a MegaMek in a trukk was 315 points for 20w t6 with a 2+, with a 4++ against ranged attacks and regenerating a model every turn, and 10w t8 4+ from the Trukk.
Now you get the same for the slightly more palatable 295 points.
Normally a 20 point reduction for a 300 point unit with transport isn't anything major, but with all of our other points drops and suddenly not losing entire squads to devastating wounds, MANz could potentially see some use again as a big brick that zooms onto an objective in the centre of the board and sits there and draws away a lot of resources.
Mitigating their alright at best melee output with our other hard hitters and you could have a huge blob in the centre of the board that no-one wants to approach and might have to spend multiple turns chewing through.
5 MANz, a MegaMek, 10 Nobz, a Warboss and 2 Trukks is 630 points without enhancements (quite a lot of points), but is fast, super durable, and hits really hard against most targets. If you bundled that onto the midboard turn one (hopefully in cover), there's not a huge amount of options your opponent has. Either stand back with a sizable portion of your list and try to shoot them off, or charge in and either commit a silly amount of resources and risk overkilling them (letting your Hogs, Snagga Boys, Dreads, whatever, run around and do what they want) or not commit enough and get pulped, guaranteeing us the objective.
My list 100% would not be able to deal with it at range, and would almost definitely require all of my Hogs (with Smashas), my Squiggoth and likely my Killchoppa Squigosaur to even stand a chance of dealing with it quickly or efficiently. This would also completely wipe out most of my hopes of dealing with tanks or monsters.
A third of your list pretty comfortably standing up to nearly half of the opponents and eliminating a large amount of my ability to take control of the board sounds pretty good to me on paper.
Caveat: I have only looked at the Ork index, in particular my own list, for this. Please shut me down if the like of Aeldari, Knights, etc just delete this. I think it's definitely worth discussing as a potential option.
I tried not to have big units because in my meta there is a lot of SM "oath of the moment" and its instant death for the unit: so maybe not 1 * 6 Hogs but staying at 2 units of 3.
I like a lot the idea of Badrukk. Not for this tournament but maybe for the next one.
I tried not to have big units because in my meta there is a lot of SM "oath of the moment" and its instant death for the unit: so maybe not 1 * 6 Hogs but staying at 2 units of 3.
I like a lot the idea of Badrukk. Not for this tournament but maybe for the next one.
Yea not sure how different orks are but especially shooting unit if there's no stratagem/target 1 unit buff i always split. More flexible and more durable generally.
Melee gets iffier as makes coherency/fitting into combat trickier with all vs same unit and countercharge stratagem exists.
One worry your squig riders is what happened when i tried 2x3 bloodcrusher. 1st charge roll was just enough all could reach b2b but not big enough could have done so further so 1st unit blocked path for 2nd...you need to learn movement phase positioning to be better than me on that front
And especially in narrow terrain parks that can be tricky when can't just have 3 in front, 3 at back rank. 2/1 and 1/2 triangles but then you roll too well and have to ram into b2b with all...
Grimskul wrote: When you guys are running Lootas, are you just taking min squads of 5 on objectives or are you taking 10 man squads to max out more shots?
10 Man Squads for me as Jidmah mentioned to make them seem like a big threat. I also always go with KMBs (converted with bits I have around) since 3 ATKs base is great along with the AP and damage. My opponent was shokked by the damage output on those. That said using Lootas depends entirely on your table setup (and how visible objectives will be). If they don't have good visibility to set up a nice fields of fire they will feel pretty useless.
We played the scenario "you can't deep strike or scout" on objectives + Ritual. I found that i struggle a bit with my 3 Stormboyz in this configuration as secondary objective units.
Including your returns I am thinking of tuning this list with -1 stormboyz unit -1 squig Nob +2 bikes units for:
Grimskul wrote: When you guys are running Lootas, are you just taking min squads of 5 on objectives or are you taking 10 man squads to max out more shots?
10 Man Squads for me as Jidmah mentioned to make them seem like a big threat. I also always go with KMBs (converted with bits I have around) since 3 ATKs base is great along with the AP and damage. My opponent was shokked by the damage output on those. That said using Lootas depends entirely on your table setup (and how visible objectives will be). If they don't have good visibility to set up a nice fields of fire they will feel pretty useless.
Curious. I want my units be a threat. Not seem like one I want my opponent ignore my threats. So if I can have 2x5 shooters shooting at same targets but not look big threat because they are 2x5 I would love it
Though guess if you reverse, make something irrelevant seem like big threat it draws enemy focus from your real winners...screamer killer kind of does that work for me somehow.
It doesn't really work like a distraction carnifex screamer killer though. Essentially you have clear view of an objective or a long firing lane, people will go out of their way to hug cover, hide from the lootas completely or even not place units there at all because they are afraid of them being shot to shreds - which, to be truthfully, can randomly happen because of how swingy they are.
@afrodyctal re: your thoughts of manz + mek. 630 points to secure one objective is a lot - but if the opponent ignores it those nobz can go charge some thing I guess.
How about the manz in a squiggoth instead of a trukk, to boost the melee output, and make them even harder to shift? Makes the unit+transport 445 points. Too many eggs in one basket? edit: just realised it only holds 10, so you can have 3manz+mek only. Nevermind!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Re: squiggifying lootas; how about the AOS squig herder box which comes with 10 squigs. Make them weapons platforms somehow. Ork stands behind shooting. If the base is too small for the ork as well, make 'em cyber squigs. Or the goblin squig riders with bazookas!
PaddyMick wrote: @afrodyctal re: your thoughts of manz + mek. 630 points to secure one objective is a lot - but if the opponent ignores it those nobz can go charge some thing I guess.
How about the manz in a squiggoth instead of a trukk, to boost the melee output, and make them even harder to shift? Makes the unit+transport 445 points. Too many eggs in one basket? edit: just realised it only holds 10, so you can have 3manz+mek only. Nevermind!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Re: squiggifying lootas; how about the AOS squig herder box which comes with 10 squigs. Make them weapons platforms somehow. Ork stands behind shooting. If the base is too small for the ork as well, make 'em cyber squigs. Or the goblin squig riders with bazookas!
Squiggoth's can't transport MANz unfortunately. The MANz + Nobz idea was more a pipedream idea in trying to bully the midboard away from the opponent with something fast, tough and punchy. MANz are cool and I want them to be good
Jiro wrote: MA Nobz (which are pretty tough given pts reductions to both them and Mek in MA plus changes to Dev Wounds)
I feel like this is potentially worth discussion.
Pre-points cut, 5 MANz with a MegaMek in a trukk was 315 points for 20w t6 with a 2+, with a 4++ against ranged attacks and regenerating a model every turn, and 10w t8 4+ from the Trukk.
Now you get the same for the slightly more palatable 295 points.
Normally a 20 point reduction for a 300 point unit with transport isn't anything major, but with all of our other points drops and suddenly not losing entire squads to devastating wounds, MANz could potentially see some use again as a big brick that zooms onto an objective in the centre of the board and sits there and draws away a lot of resources.
Mitigating their alright at best melee output with our other hard hitters and you could have a huge blob in the centre of the board that no-one wants to approach and might have to spend multiple turns chewing through.
5 MANz, a MegaMek, 10 Nobz, a Warboss and 2 Trukks is 630 points without enhancements (quite a lot of points), but is fast, super durable, and hits really hard against most targets. If you bundled that onto the midboard turn one (hopefully in cover), there's not a huge amount of options your opponent has. Either stand back with a sizable portion of your list and try to shoot them off, or charge in and either commit a silly amount of resources and risk overkilling them (letting your Hogs, Snagga Boys, Dreads, whatever, run around and do what they want) or not commit enough and get pulped, guaranteeing us the objective.
My list 100% would not be able to deal with it at range, and would almost definitely require all of my Hogs (with Smashas), my Squiggoth and likely my Killchoppa Squigosaur to even stand a chance of dealing with it quickly or efficiently. This would also completely wipe out most of my hopes of dealing with tanks or monsters.
A third of your list pretty comfortably standing up to nearly half of the opponents and eliminating a large amount of my ability to take control of the board sounds pretty good to me on paper.
Caveat: I have only looked at the Ork index, in particular my own list, for this. Please shut me down if the like of Aeldari, Knights, etc just delete this. I think it's definitely worth discussing as a potential option.
Have to politely disagree, all that you need to shut down that unit is just give it a -1 to hit.
Combined with low amount of hit's and WS4 and all of the sudden it's 300pts brick that's worst then our shooting. The durability is also mainly for shooting.
It also does not kill enough, and a cron blobe will kill it even if slowly. To give an idea, i would only need 10boyz and a snazzwagon. Not only will i take the objective from you, and force like a 3 or more turns of trade, i would do it at half the cost. Even just 10boyz would probably trade into it.
But their might be armies where this is viable, Tau comes to mind and any other shooty faction like maybe marines. Honestly i have only used MANZ more offensively but i can see it as a distraction to absorve shots.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote: Yea not sure how different orks are but especially shooting unit if there's no stratagem/target 1 unit buff i always split. More flexible and more durable generally.
Melee gets iffier as makes coherency/fitting into combat trickier with all vs same unit and countercharge stratagem exists.
One worry your squig riders is what happened when i tried 2x3 bloodcrusher. 1st charge roll was just enough all could reach b2b but not big enough could have done so further so 1st unit blocked path for 2nd...you need to learn movement phase positioning to be better than me on that front
And especially in narrow terrain parks that can be tricky when can't just have 3 in front, 3 at back rank. 2/1 and 1/2 triangles but then you roll too well and have to ram into b2b with all...
Grumble grumble
Also tried both, if i bunch them up it starts being a shooting target + a lot of transit, if i split i need to bring more support in order for them to be viable with extra smash.
From experience i rather split, the 2 units are bigger threats then one single one and they attract a lot less shooting, to the point i like to spend CP on them to make them worst to shoot at. Shoots against it aren't shoot's against more important stuff, most of the time it's a waist of time shooting, but if ignored they also cause havoc. Their also good action monkeys.
Have to politely disagree, all that you need to shut down that unit is just give it a -1 to hit.
Combined with low amount of hit's and WS4 and all of the sudden it's 300pts brick that's worst then our shooting. The durability is also mainly for shooting.
It also does not kill enough, and a cron blobe will kill it even if slowly. To give an idea, i would only need 10boyz and a snazzwagon. Not only will i take the objective from you, and force like a 3 or more turns of trade, i would do it at half the cost. Even just 10boyz would probably trade into it.
But their might be armies where this is viable, Tau comes to mind and any other shooty faction like maybe marines. Honestly i have only used MANZ more offensively but i can see it as a distraction to absorve shots.
I respect your analysis on the matter. I know MANz aren't particularly killy, so in my expensive but realistic example I stuck with with a big block of Nobs to dissuade things from coming closer. The idea being that if you charge the MANz, you're getting counter charged by the Nobs who will probably clean up.
MANz are really good at taking punishment, but don't give it back too well. MANz just need something more to boost their damage output a little and they'll be a really solid unit. Or be really cheap, but that's a can of worms and could lead to problems.
Have to politely disagree, all that you need to shut down that unit is just give it a -1 to hit.
Combined with low amount of hit's and WS4 and all of the sudden it's 300pts brick that's worst then our shooting. The durability is also mainly for shooting.
It also does not kill enough, and a cron blobe will kill it even if slowly. To give an idea, i would only need 10boyz and a snazzwagon. Not only will i take the objective from you, and force like a 3 or more turns of trade, i would do it at half the cost. Even just 10boyz would probably trade into it.
But their might be armies where this is viable, Tau comes to mind and any other shooty faction like maybe marines. Honestly i have only used MANZ more offensively but i can see it as a distraction to absorve shots.
I respect your analysis on the matter. I know MANz aren't particularly killy, so in my expensive but realistic example I stuck with with a big block of Nobs to dissuade things from coming closer. The idea being that if you charge the MANz, you're getting counter charged by the Nobs who will probably clean up.
MANz are really good at taking punishment, but don't give it back too well. MANz just need something more to boost their damage output a little and they'll be a really solid unit. Or be really cheap, but that's a can of worms and could lead to problems.
I agree with your line of thought, and would do the same, issue i have with that brick is the ease to shut down. I also think GW should give them more rules, if they had a FNP or something to make them really stick, i think there would be game for them. But the lack of OC and punch makes them rather underwhelming. Anyway the unit needs a role and i am not sure GW knows what it wants with them. They defo hit the sweet spot with Nobz as a offensive melee unit with some durability.
just gimmie back my rokkits on my MANz and i'll be happy.
I already used them as tanky objective holders in the past, but i put kombirokkits on them because the random 3D3 rokkit shots even at BS5 tended to do damage from time to time.
Now they just sit there and every once in awhile i hit one of their 3 combi shots.
Vineheart01 wrote: just gimmie back my rokkits on my MANz and i'll be happy.
I already used them as tanky objective holders in the past, but i put kombirokkits on them because the random 3D3 rokkit shots even at BS5 tended to do damage from time to time.
Now they just sit there and every once in awhile i hit one of their 3 combi shots.
Amen. If any unit should get back its combi-weapons it's MANz. It's probably the only non-character kit in existence with enough of all weapons for every single model.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah and while the combi-weapon rule is alright for marines its fecking horrid for orks.
It's the classic blanket approach GW likes taking, either they usually give us worse versions of SM weapons, or they give us the same stats but don't make up for the accuracy/number of attacks that marines get.
Skorchas and Rokkits have a clear role difference, it would give Meganobz a lot more utility even just for overwatch while sitting on an objective.
anyhow.. played vs eldar the other day. tried out MANz for the first time in 10th.
LIST 1500
Squigboss with HWKC
BM in MA with 3 MAN'z
WB in MA with 2 MAN'z
Badrukk and 5 FG
WB + Weirdboy + 20 boyz (Follow me Ladz)
Deff Dread (4 klaws)
2x Trukk
4 Grottanks
10 gretchin
5 Stormboyz
BM with three MANz in trukk and WB in MA with two MANz (hitching a ride with badrukk and 5 FG)
BM and his retinue were great! soaked a lot of damage and bringing back a model per turn enabled some shenenigans like getting better charges and getting objectives, which were otherwise unreachable. were preceived as a big threat by my opponent and quiet rightly so... damage output was a bit on the 'meh' side... but not nothing and BM's shooting is also a nice side effect. still, they really need an extra attack per model or hitting on 3's. anyone compared them to their murinz counterpart yet?
defensive wise its a big blocker unit. done its job in taking and clearing objectives and soaking firepower which would otherwise go into squigboss or Grottanks. worked really good, think i'll be trying them again.
WBwas really dissapointing. hit like a wet noodle and no defensive capabilities whatsoever besides a 2+ and a 5++ and the most stupid rule ever... a 4+++ when you whaaagh. Well.. i waaagh when i'm in position and ready... and since he has a retinue he never gets to do a FNP save. if he would give that buff to the unit, that would be nice. but as he is, the WB in MA is useless.
20 boyz with warboss and weirdboy with the -1 to wound still viable. took one entire turn of all non-lance weapons shooting and a charge from a wraithlord + big blob of guardians to reduce the mob to WB, weirdboy and the nob. warboss hits like a trukk on the whaagh turn. weirdboy is a bit overcosted imho... but its like OC 40+ with T5 -1 to wound and packing some serious punch if not dealt with. not really my playstyle but in a better list with more soft targets, absolutley viable.
Grot tanks are still amazing.
the dread... well... took 5 fusions to the face and exploded turn one
squigboss with HWKC... does MUUUCH more dmg than his named counterpart, for a bit less tankyness. still undecided bout that aspect.
rest... FG and badrukk amazing as ever.
trukks are solid objective stealers and keep harrassing and binding units till late game. if they die before... well that meant, less stuff shooting my important units.
stormboyz as always useful. drop em in, get some points, charge some backfield chaff.
gretchin won the game by storming an objective on turn 5 with lots of OC
btw opponent brought a pretty mild eldar list
Spoiler:
10 guardians + farseer
5 wraithguard + spiritseer
5 spiders
5 dragons
2 waveserpents
wraithlord
5 snipers
and i think like 3x3 bikes with cannons and a viper
WB [/b]was really dissapointing. hit like a wet noodle and no defensive capabilities whatsoever besides a 2+ and a 5++ and the most stupid rule ever... a 4+++ when you whaaagh. Well.. i waaagh when i'm in position and ready... and since he has a retinue he never gets to do a FNP save. if he would give that buff to the unit, that would be nice. but as he is, the WB in MA is useless.
20 boyz with warboss and weirdboy with the -1 to wound still viable. took one entire turn of all non-lance weapons shooting and a charge from a wraithlord + big blob of guardians to reduce the mob to WB, weirdboy and the nob. warboss hits like a trukk on the whaagh turn. weirdboy is a bit overcosted imho... but its like OC 40+ with T5 -1 to wound and packing some serious punch if not dealt with. not really my playstyle but in a better list with more soft targets, absolutley viable
Eh mate, I think you have your datasheet's mixed up, 20 boyz with warboss and weirdboy don't have -1W unless you spend a strat on them,.. if you look at them by the strat you will get a lot more out of 20 beast boyz, with full hit rerolls to vehicles, 1 extra S and FNP 6 and the beastboss gets devwounds on charge plust anti-vehicle/monster also with rerolls... so your either confusing with the nobz datasheet that has perma -1W or your mentioning boyz under a strat that can be applied almost to anyone except vehicles.
Here's the ability boyz have
Breakin’ Heads: While a Warboss model is leading this unit,
in your Command phase, the first time a Battle-shock test
is failed for this unit that phase, if it is within range of an
objective marker, you can choose to break some heads. If you
do, 1 Bodyguard model in this unit is destroyed and you can
re-roll that test.
If this unit has a Starting Strength of 20, you can attach up to
two Leader units to it instead of one (but only if one of those
is a Warboss model). If you do, and this unit is destroyed, the
Leader units attached to it become separate units with their
original Starting Strengths.
Has for warboss in mega armor I already mentioned that through playing him, the best combo so far is to give him 3 MANZ and put them inside the truck and use them as a single use missile, the boss is there for the +1Hit to make them hit on 3, the things you want him to engage will most likely kill his bodyguards, you can also give him the 4fnp to make him a mini beastboss on squig making his waghh kind of redundant yes, but an extra durable character.
I think the rest checks out, most people are probably absorbing the Data slate and trying out, but the issue is fundamentally that GW did not change our play style, ork meta is the same it was before the Data slate. GW also failed to implement meaningful changes to MANZ/planes/buggies/walkers solidifying the current play style, even our shooting is limited to some good datasheets.
It's not all doom and gloom, there are some sheets i am still going to try out. But in general, much hasn't changed for us, the same conclusion remains, all we are trying to gouge is other armies, and see where they land at the moment.
Eh mate, I think you have your datasheet's mixed up, 20 boyz with warboss and weirdboy don't have -1W unless you spend a strat on them,..
...of course i meant with the strat and as i am just wanna use em as cheap and durable OC... i dont see the point of upgrading them to snaggaz. when enemy is done shooting thm... the only ones left ware chars and at max a couple of boyz.
Has for warboss in mega armor I already mentioned that through playing him, the best combo so far is to give him 3 MANZ and put them inside the truck and use them as a single use missile, the boss is there for the +1Hit to make them hit on 3, the things you want him to engage will most likely kill his bodyguards, you can also give him the 4fnp to make him a mini beastboss on squig making his waghh kind of redundant yes, but an extra durable character.
at that point i'd rather use warboss and 5 nobz... both clock in at 170 and WB+nobz will do much more dmg than the manly WB +3 Manz, especially in a turn you'll whaagh.
Afrodactyl wrote: Could I get a mathhammer bod to math out 10 Flash Gitz with Ammo Runt Vs 5 Flash Gitz with Ammo Runt and Badrukk please?
Might save me buying another box of Gitz as I can definitely just build Badrukk from my box of abandoned projects.
Edited because I apparently can't spell two letter words.
simplified math, moving, no dmg calc:
5 FG
15 shots + 2 sustained + 1 extra hit from rerolls = 8 hits
badrukk
3 shots = 1 hit (better str and ap + can supercharge)
-> 9 hits for 175
10FG
30 shots + 5 sustained = 15 hits for 190
basically its 30% more dmg for 10% more points, if you go full FG but you'll loose on some adaptibility regarding more str, ap and dmg from badrukks gun.
Eh mate, I think you have your datasheet's mixed up, 20 boyz with warboss and weirdboy don't have -1W unless you spend a strat on them,..
...of course i meant with the strat and as i am just wanna use em as cheap and durable OC... i dont see the point of upgrading them to snaggaz. when enemy is done shooting thm... the only ones left ware chars and at max a couple of boyz.
Has for warboss in mega armor I already mentioned that through playing him, the best combo so far is to give him 3 MANZ and put them inside the truck and use them as a single use missile, the boss is there for the +1Hit to make them hit on 3, the things you want him to engage will most likely kill his bodyguards, you can also give him the 4fnp to make him a mini beastboss on squig making his waghh kind of redundant yes, but an extra durable character.
at that point i'd rather use warboss and 5 nobz... both clock in at 170 and WB+nobz will do much more dmg than the manly WB +3 Manz, especially in a turn you'll whaagh.
Yeah, I just cut boyz and MANZ from my list's and added trucks. Also I use nobz for backbone of my armies. The shock factor is scary, last game deleted 5 termies + abbadon during waghhh, and that's 5xNobz + Warboss.
Eh mate, I think you have your datasheet's mixed up, 20 boyz with warboss and weirdboy don't have -1W unless you spend a strat on them,..
...of course i meant with the strat and as i am just wanna use em as cheap and durable OC... i dont see the point of upgrading them to snaggaz. when enemy is done shooting thm... the only ones left ware chars and at max a couple of boyz.
Has for warboss in mega armor I already mentioned that through playing him, the best combo so far is to give him 3 MANZ and put them inside the truck and use them as a single use missile, the boss is there for the +1Hit to make them hit on 3, the things you want him to engage will most likely kill his bodyguards, you can also give him the 4fnp to make him a mini beastboss on squig making his waghh kind of redundant yes, but an extra durable character.
at that point i'd rather use warboss and 5 nobz... both clock in at 170 and WB+nobz will do much more dmg than the manly WB +3 Manz, especially in a turn you'll whaagh.
Afrodactyl wrote: Could I get a mathhammer bod to math out 10 Flash Gitz with Ammo Runt Vs 5 Flash Gitz with Ammo Runt and Badrukk please?
Might save me buying another box of Gitz as I can definitely just build Badrukk from my box of abandoned projects.
Edited because I apparently can't spell two letter words.
simplified math, moving, no dmg calc:
5 FG
15 shots + 2 sustained + 1 extra hit from rerolls = 8 hits
badrukk
3 shots = 1 hit (better str and ap + can supercharge)
-> 9 hits for 175
10FG
30 shots + 5 sustained = 15 hits for 190
basically its 30% more dmg for 10% more points, if you go full FG but you'll loose on some adaptibility regarding more str, ap and dmg from badrukks gun.
Badrukk gives full reroll to hit, so your math seems off.
5 Gits, 15 shots, 5 hits + 2,5 sustained hit. 10 Rerolls, another 3,33 hits +1,66 sustained. Together 12,5 hits. Badrukk 1 hit + 0,5 sustained, 2 rerolls, so another 0,66 hits + 0,33 sustained. so 2,5 from Badrukk. So 15 hits in total, which is the same as 10 Gitz without Badrukk. So basically, for 15 points more you get slightly less output (because Badrukks weapon is better) but more wounds, objective control and better CC.
I'm so happy I bought a metal Badrukk during 9th for 12.50€, the current prices for him are completely insane
I tell you, the best way to collect orks is by buying stuff with bad rules from people selling their pile of shame.
That said, I finally got my first two mek gunz (for 30€ each), so I don't need to borrow them anymore. How did you guys magnetize the tractor gunz? The other options seem pretty straight forward, but I can't find a good place to put a magnet on those tiny wings.
Badrukk gives full reroll to hit, so your math seems off.
5 Gits, 15 shots, 5 hits + 2,5 sustained hit. 10 Rerolls, another 3,33 hits +1,66 sustained. Together 12,5 hits. Badrukk 1 hit + 0,5 sustained, 2 rerolls, so another 0,66 hits + 0,33 sustained. so 2,5 from Badrukk. So 15 hits in total, which is the same as 10 Gitz without Badrukk. So basically, for 15 points more you get slightly less output (because Badrukks weapon is better) but more wounds, objective control and better CC.
damn you're right! calculated with reroll 1's, really don't know why, Sorry mates keep in mind thought, that you dont benefit from Badrukks rerolls when they're still in the Trukk... So 10 man unit not utterly unusable.
I think you should look at the target's instead of comparing them. The hogs are more generalist's, start throwing them against stuff that has high saves or can decrease their AP and their value plummet's.
You still get, on have average, 6 attacks from each and, 1+ on waaagh.
This is excluding the soft factor's of added mobility and assault on ranged weapons + some decent keywords on the weapons(lance + anti).
On the other hand nobz need babysitting, they get that extra AP, meaning they bounce a lot less, but since your hitting on 3+, anything that hit's their hit will cut their performance heavily. SO they need more support, a truck or something to hide them, because their such a punchy unit they have a target on their back's. If their foot slogging, 10 are harder to hide then 5, but anything they touch, with equal to less T then the claw will likely evaporate, the extra S during waaagh is important for them, giving them more target's to engage, and brutal to target's at T5
On the other hand, their plagued with many problems, their a 2W model with bad saves and no FNP, compared between the 2, the hog has higher chance of reaching their target. It really needs a lot of babysitting and being 10models makes it expensive to even show them, since your opponent will focus fire them to boot and their not the most survivable unit. Their actually really bad if you bring 10 since most of the time you do not need that raw power in the field to deal with a unit. Unless you want to punch something like Lychguard you rarely need 10, and having 2 units of 5 with a boss each does a lot more work then a block of 10.
Armed Forces Day 6 - Michael Schietinger mounted everything, that can be mounted and with the most speedfreaks list we can actually can get the 10th place
Spoiler:
8 days paint (2000 points)
Orks
Strike Force (2000 points)
Waaagh! Tribe
Interesting to see the Gorkanaut in there, i'll be fielding one myself at GT in a couple of months I hope. I've found them to be good value. In that list it looks like a distraction, maybe... unless he's rapid ingressing it in, which is more likely to work with the changes to towering (since it can be obscured).
Automatically Appended Next Post: re: bjorn's list - Mekboy workshop to screen out the backfield and stop deepstrikers behind him? takes up a lot of space if you string it out....
I tried out some Lootas and I'm not vibing with them. Maybe I've tweaked my list again slightly to incorporate the loss of the Lootas and an additional Distraction Deff Dread™.
Also testing some tweaks like Squigboss with Killchoppa Vs Mozrog Skragbad and 10 Gitz Vs 5 Gitz with Badrukk.
Still using all the Squigs for all the memes though
That looks hard as nails mate! Re: lootas; I've found them to be situational. The long range is nice.
I'm painting a stompa right now, so it's going in the list for a bit, and I'm giving serious thought to leaning in hard and running Stompa + 3 Gorkanauts.
Rest of the list could be something like 3x10 grots, a mek, 10 boyz and 2 weirdboys to ping around doing stuff.
Afrodactyl, may i suggest stormboyz or more defkoptas? considering the transit you already have in the table might provide you mission options? The snazwagon has been a solid choice for the -1 aura and the shooting is decent, at least for me.I haven't tried dreads since the 10th droped.
Forceride wrote: Afrodactyl, may i suggest stormboyz or more defkoptas? considering the transit you already have in the table might provide you mission options? The snazwagon has been a solid choice for the -1 aura and the shooting is decent, at least for me.I haven't tried dreads since the 10th droped.
As far as units go I'm somewhat bound to what I can make Squiggy. Stormboys are doable, but they'd be expensive for me to put together as I'd need to buy stormboys, Squig herd and gargoyles to get boys carried by flying Squigs. Even buying the bits separately would be expensive.
Deffkoptas are very doable, but I've already got 12 models that are essentially the same 3 models repeated (hogs, and Deffkoptas made from hogs with Vargheist wings) and I want to mix things up more.
My Deff Dreads are Dreadified Mangler Squigs I'm having a lot of fun with them at the moment, they tend to make a mess of whatever they manage to charge, but you pretty much have to bring them in from reserves. If you try to walk them up the board they tend to die quick as they're not as tough as they look on paper.
As far as units go I'm somewhat bound to what I can make Squiggy. Stormboys are doable, but they'd be expensive for me to put together as I'd need to buy stormboys, Squig herd and gargoyles to get boys carried by flying Squigs. Even buying the bits separately would be expensive.
i'm guessing you would go with boyz riding (or beeing carried) by flying squigs?
i would suggest to go to the nearest toy store and just look for winged stuff... size of a squigwing is damn variable to say at least also just use normal boyz to do the conversion, ork players always have strayed boyz lying somewhere... 5 would also be enough to make a great addition to your list.
as far as your list goes... i would try 5 nobz + warboss instead of snaggaz... i like snaggaz in trukks too (brings back memories or 3rd edition lists) but nobz are more effective and cheaper.
same with squiggoth... have a great converted model just sitting on the shelf... its just not worth 150 points
deffdreads... if you want flamers (always good to have an assault weapon for doing objectives) just use 1? this thing needs to get into CC. its where it shines (and as a distraction).
BTW if anyone is looking for a cheapo conversion project of grot tanks... found these little suckers..
https://www.amazon.de/dp/B0BW55QTTN?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1 they are from china and basically avaiable worldwide, under 100 different brands and names... perfect size and cost like 10bucks
I'm trying to get the hang of Green Tide orks, but have consistently run into issues of simply being blown to bits before I can bring my army to bear.
There's so many bodies that it's hard to deploy everything forward, particularly if the deployment type is "Anything other than Dawn of War," and my army ends up getting obliterated pretty hard before it has a chance to get into melee. If I call a WAAAGH turn one, I have more durability to weather the storm, but then I don't have DPS when I finally close to melee.
I want to get this working rather than simply resort to vehicle spam, but so far I've just found myself too vulnerable to long range fire.
if anyone is looking for a cheapo conversion project of grot tanks... found these little suckers..
https://www.amazon.de/dp/B0BW55QTTN?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1 they are from china and basically avaiable worldwide, under 100 different brands and names... perfect size and cost like 10bucks
I have 8 at home already! I don' t care how long FW grot tanks will have rules or not. This conversion is absolute must!
I was reading the old Waaagh Ghazgkhull and Sanctus Reach books and thought a Big Mob - trying to do an Orky version of a Knight Banner.
There's not a heck of a lot of options but it might be fun. The Meks can lurk around the walkers with whichever type of firepower I need (but mostly the Morkanauts due to the amount of damage I'll be taking from all that [Hazardous] weaponry)
Anyone tried anything similar? How did it go? Any advice?
Big Mob (1980 points)
Orks
Strike Force (2000 points)
Waaagh! Tribe
Waaaghpower wrote: I'm trying to get the hang of Green Tide orks, but have consistently run into issues of simply being blown to bits before I can bring my army to bear.
There's so many bodies that it's hard to deploy everything forward, particularly if the deployment type is "Anything other than Dawn of War," and my army ends up getting obliterated pretty hard before it has a chance to get into melee. If I call a WAAAGH turn one, I have more durability to weather the storm, but then I don't have DPS when I finally close to melee.
I want to get this working rather than simply resort to vehicle spam, but so far I've just found myself too vulnerable to long range fire.
Are you sure your playing with enough terrain on the table, sounds more like your playing in a shooting gallery.
Yeah meta favours shooting, but it isn't that bad unless your playing on table with nothing to hide.
That's my kind of list! It probably actually does ok into certain opponents (like grey knights and sister maybe?), but the problem is scoring obviously. I'd love to try Stompa+3 Gorkas (and only one mek), reckon that's got some play, and some points for grots etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @waaaghpower have you tried big mek with kff or painboy for extra durability, or weirdboys to get there faster and avoid the problems with deployment?
PaddyMick wrote: That's my kind of list! It probably actually does ok into certain opponents (like grey knights and sister maybe?), but the problem is scoring obviously. I'd love to try Stompa+3 Gorkas (and only one mek), reckon that's got some play, and some points for grots etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @waaaghpower have you tried big mek with kff or painboy for extra durability, or weirdboys to get there faster and avoid the problems with deployment?
I've tried both - The Weirdboy I was put off from after I got hilariously bad luck, and even the good luck wasn't particularly effective.
I had two units with Weirdboys. On one, I dropped Ere We Go to make the deep strike charge more likely...then rolled a 1. And then took 6 mortal wounds. The other squad made it in, but because my opponent had screens, I couldn't drop near the most valuable targets and I failed my charge. That left me exposed, and a unit of four obliterators just demolished that squad on my opponent's next turn.
Admittedly, I was screwed over by bad luck. (And, hilariously, on the next turn, the first Weirdboy rolled *another* 1 and then got 5 more mortal wounds - making him personally responsible for more ork deaths than any single mini in my opponent's army.) I also could still have won that game if I'd played more tactically, I made a few mistakes. Still, I'm not a fan of relying too heavily on luck.
For the painboy - That went a little better, but didn't turn things around enough. The painboy squad still took a lot of damage, and my opponent ended up charging me with a unit that had D2 weapons in melee, which pretty much completely invalidated the Feel No Pain.
Has anyone used Kommandoes? I'm looking at them as a more reliable way to get close, fast - It's 50 points over a Boyz squad, but they seem to get a lot of good tools in their arsenal to justify the points bump.
Yes Kommandos are great. Can't be overwatched is priceless. Snikrot teleports without rolling as well if you want that. Obviously depending on terrain, my experience is that more than one squad can't be deployed in a good spot, and it's a nice option.
Stormboyz as well, people take them in 5's to do actions but 10 mans are a good way to get a lot of lads in combat fast.
PaddyMick wrote: That's my kind of list! It probably actually does ok into certain opponents (like grey knights and sister maybe?), but the problem is scoring obviously. I'd love to try Stompa+3 Gorkas (and only one mek), reckon that's got some play, and some points for grots etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @waaaghpower have you tried big mek with kff or painboy for extra durability, or weirdboys to get there faster and avoid the problems with deployment?
I've tried both - The Weirdboy I was put off from after I got hilariously bad luck, and even the good luck wasn't particularly effective.
I had two units with Weirdboys. On one, I dropped Ere We Go to make the deep strike charge more likely...then rolled a 1. And then took 6 mortal wounds. The other squad made it in, but because my opponent had screens, I couldn't drop near the most valuable targets and I failed my charge. That left me exposed, and a unit of four obliterators just demolished that squad on my opponent's next turn.
Admittedly, I was screwed over by bad luck. (And, hilariously, on the next turn, the first Weirdboy rolled *another* 1 and then got 5 more mortal wounds - making him personally responsible for more ork deaths than any single mini in my opponent's army.) I also could still have won that game if I'd played more tactically, I made a few mistakes. Still, I'm not a fan of relying too heavily on luck.
For the painboy - That went a little better, but didn't turn things around enough. The painboy squad still took a lot of damage, and my opponent ended up charging me with a unit that had D2 weapons in melee, which pretty much completely invalidated the Feel No Pain.
Has anyone used Kommandoes? I'm looking at them as a more reliable way to get close, fast - It's 50 points over a Boyz squad, but they seem to get a lot of good tools in their arsenal to justify the points bump.
Yeah.. well you just explained why green tide does not work for me, you invest a lot of points for marginal gains, while if you had invested in transports, you would have spent less and achieved more. But yeah orks on foot just don't work since we lack the tool to either survive or recover bodies. Looking backing back i would probably go for a slab of 20 with KKF but even that is expensive.
Waaaghpower wrote: I'm trying to get the hang of Green Tide orks, but have consistently run into issues of simply being blown to bits before I can bring my army to bear.
There's so many bodies that it's hard to deploy everything forward, particularly if the deployment type is "Anything other than Dawn of War," and my army ends up getting obliterated pretty hard before it has a chance to get into melee. If I call a WAAAGH turn one, I have more durability to weather the storm, but then I don't have DPS when I finally close to melee.
I want to get this working rather than simply resort to vehicle spam, but so far I've just found myself too vulnerable to long range fire.
(I also read your later posts, I just won't quote everything)
In feel like green tide has been broke by design. GW does not want boyz without support to be a viable army, and I personally think that is a good thing. It requires some work for those who are used to playing that type of list and as it forces you to rethink how your army plays. That said, I don't think all infantry lists are dead.
If you actually want an all infantry list focusing on melee, you need to pressure your opponent from the very first turn and force him to play your game. - The weird boyz are not meant to actually threaten valuable target. If your opponent is screening, take down as much of the screen as you can mange. You will lose that mob, it's just a matter of how much damage you deal and how much damage they distract from the enemy army. Throwing dead 'ard on them is a difficult decision, as it's only worth it if the opponent has to dedicate another unit to killing your boyz. If you jump them next to a unit of, say, agressors, they will be dead even if they get -1 to wound. Personally I've found a single weirdboy to be sufficient, but YMMV - Kommadoz are mandatory for such a list IMO, minimum two units. Threaten objectives from the first turn, move into combat range of valuable units, and most importantly, make sure that weird boy mob has some back-up. Stealth makes them harder to shoot off the board for your opponent, so they waste even more of their killing power. Snikrot is decent, but runs against the idea of what you are trying to do. - A unit of nobz with warboss and the follow me enhancement are surprisingly fast. If you are going second, there is a big chance of them being able to charge something first turn. - Flash gits are pretty much mandatory for any walking list. Multiple units of 5, a unit of 10 with or without Badrukk are all valid options. Experiment a bit to find what fits your playstyle best. - Outside of the jumping mob, boyz really aren't a unit that I would consider to be worth playing (and thus protecting with a character). Instead play nobz(always with warboss attached), beastsnaggas with beastboss or lootas. You might be paying more points per body, but you are getting much more. - Stormboyz are utility only, not a killing unit. Minimum units for scoring VP are great, max units for killing stuff fast are not. If you don't have stormboyz, warbikers can take that role. - You will need some shooting to support your boyz. Flip a few pages back for a discussion on that. The short summary is that mek gunz, grot tanks, koptas and killa kanz are all decent options. - You should consider running squighogs as flanking/hammer unit. They synergize incredibly well with foot lists.
In general, your goal is not to table your opponent. Your goal is to push them out of midfield and prevent them from scoring as many secondaries as possible. You will end up killed or mostly killed in the majority of your games, but you will still win by a landslide of VP. Be aware that banking on a single defensive profile can backfire in 10th, as you might run into an army that is hyper effective at killing boyz. In that case you just lose.
Yeah.. well you just explained why green tide does not work for me, you invest a lot of points for marginal gains, while if you had invested in transports, you would have spent less and achieved more. But yeah orks on foot just don't work since we lack the tool to either survive or recover bodies. Looking backing back i would probably go for a slab of 20 with KKF but even that is expensive.
I've been curious about Kustom Force Field but haven't taken it because it seems a bit redundant - I'm always WAAAGH-ing as soon as possible, meaning I'm often getting a 5+ invuln for the first turn anyways. Overcharging to a 4++ is okay, but is that worth 55 points to get a +1 to that save?
Another option I've looked at is the WAAAGH! banner, since that also provides a 5+ invuln - I can get a nice beefy mob with a 5++ for the first two turns, after which I kind of don't care as much.
(I also read your later posts, I just won't quote everything)
In feel like green tide has been broke by design. GW does not want boyz without support to be a viable army, and I personally think that is a good thing. It requires some work for those who are used to playing that type of list and as it forces you to rethink how your army plays.
That said, I don't think all infantry lists are dead.
Yeah...in fairness, I'm deliberately playing at a disadvantage here to try and get it working. I like a challenge, I like playing Orks, and after several fun games in a row where I won with transport pressure I wanted to switch to something with a different playstyle and something that I'd have to work harder at.
If you actually want an all infantry list focusing on melee, you need to pressure your opponent from the very first turn and force him to play your game.
- The weird boyz are not meant to actually threaten valuable target. If your opponent is screening, take down as much of the screen as you can mange. You will lose that mob, it's just a matter of how much damage you deal and how much damage they distract from the enemy army. Throwing dead 'ard on them is a difficult decision, as it's only worth it if the opponent has to dedicate another unit to killing your boyz. If you jump them next to a unit of, say, agressors, they will be dead even if they get -1 to wound. Personally I've found a single weirdboy to be sufficient, but YMMV
The 'Not threatening a valuable target' is fair, my issue has more been the randomness - I am really not a fan of units where something as important as a 200+ point squad can be completely neutralized by a single bad roll. Yes, the game is ultimately dictated by luck, but there's no strategy in 'Will I get screwed over by rolling a 1 with zero opportunity to reroll or mitigate it?' (And then, of course, I still need to actually make charge rolls or weather shooting once I arrive, but that's more standard.)
- Kommadoz are mandatory for such a list IMO, minimum two units. Threaten objectives from the first turn, move into combat range of valuable units, and most importantly, make sure that weird boy mob has some back-up. Stealth makes them harder to shoot off the board for your opponent, so they waste even more of their killing power. Snikrot is decent, but runs against the idea of what you are trying to do.
Despite playing since like 2008, I never actually picked up any Kommandoes - I think it's time to change that!
- A unit of nobz with warboss and the follow me enhancement are surprisingly fast. If you are going second, there is a big chance of them being able to charge something first turn.
I know they get the -1 to Wound, but I'm worried about that being a point sink that will attract too much focus fire - That's, what, almost 300 points in a single unit?
- Flash gits are pretty much mandatory for any walking list. Multiple units of 5, a unit of 10 with or without Badrukk are all valid options. Experiment a bit to find what fits your playstyle best.
And, ironically, these are the only other model that were around in 5th edition that I haven't picked up yet I've got everything else in spades!
- Outside of the jumping mob, boyz really aren't a unit that I would consider to be worth playing (and thus protecting with a character). Instead play nobz(always with warboss attached), beastsnaggas with beastboss or lootas. You might be paying more points per body, but you are getting much more.
I've been running minimum-squad Lootas to pretty good effect. For 50 points, they seem like a pretty fantastic deal, even if their shooting is little more than harassment fodder. Beastsnaggas are something I'm building up to, (I've got 20 of them at the moment,) I'm once again worried that attaching the beastbosses makes them too much of a point sink/cannon fodder, since you're doubling the unit's price and getting a considerably smaller durability improvement.
- Stormboyz are utility only, not a killing unit. Minimum units for scoring VP are great, max units for killing stuff fast are not. If you don't have stormboyz, warbikers can take that role.
Good to know - I've been playing them wrong I have been running Warbikers in that role, too, but I've been attaching a Wartrike to them - I think I'd be better off running several MSU squads and quietly ignoring their DPS, rather than trying to make them into an assault unit.
- You will need some shooting to support your boyz. Flip a few pages back for a discussion on that. The short summary is that mek gunz, grot tanks, koptas and killa kanz are all decent options.
I've got Koptas I can throw in!
- You should consider running squighogs as flanking/hammer unit. They synergize incredibly well with foot lists.
This is something I've been doing - I've got two squads, and they've typically done very well with Nobz attached, especially throwing Eadwompa's Killchoppa on one of them. (The Nobz are so cheap that it doesn't seem like an issue to attach one to every squad.)
In general, your goal is not to table your opponent. Your goal is to push them out of midfield and prevent them from scoring as many secondaries as possible. You will end up killed or mostly killed in the majority of your games, but you will still win by a landslide of VP. Be aware that banking on a single defensive profile can backfire in 10th, as you might run into an army that is hyper effective at killing boyz. In that case you just lose.
Thank you for the very thorough rundown. This gives me a lot of ideas and I'm excited to try this out on the table.
PaddyMick wrote: That's my kind of list! It probably actually does ok into certain opponents (like grey knights and sister maybe?), but the problem is scoring obviously. I'd love to try Stompa+3 Gorkas (and only one mek), reckon that's got some play, and some points for grots etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @waaaghpower have you tried big mek with kff or painboy for extra durability, or weirdboys to get there faster and avoid the problems with deployment?
The 6 Nauts feel like they have a touch more flexibility. A pair of stompas is tempting too, I just don't think the stompa and naut models suit each other well. It's a nice simple list - the trick will (as with all things orky) be timing Waaaggh! because not knly does it give me advance and charge, extra hittyness and an invulnerable (and with a 3+ save one ill realistically use) but it also gives me a +1 to hit, in melee for the Gorkanauts and shooting for the morkanauts.
Waaaghpower wrote: The 'Not threatening a valuable target' is fair, my issue has more been the randomness - I am really not a fan of units where something as important as a 200+ point squad can be completely neutralized by a single bad roll. Yes, the game is ultimately dictated by luck, but there's no strategy in 'Will I get screwed over by rolling a 1 with zero opportunity to reroll or mitigate it?' (And then, of course, I still need to actually make charge rolls or weather shooting once I arrive, but that's more standard.)
Sure, if your weirdboy explodes and kills half of your mob, that's bad luck. But you might as well have rolled terribly on your charges twice for the same result. Stuff like that just happens. You can plan for not jumping though. Jumping in this edition is more reliable that it ever was, and people managed with the lower chances in previous editions just fine. Deploy and plan for rolling a '1' so your mob is in a good position even if it doesn't jump. Eventually da jump will get off, and worst case just sling your 'eadbanger at vehicles or monsters to draw your opponents to them.
Despite playing since like 2008, I never actually picked up any Kommandoes - I think it's time to change that!
If you have a stacked box of ork bitz like I do, make sure to kitbash yourself some slugga&choppa extras so you can switch out the special weapons you don't need.
I know they get the -1 to Wound, but I'm worried about that being a point sink that will attract too much focus fire - That's, what, almost 300 points in a single unit?
I've found units of 5 lead by a warboss to do their job just fine. I'm not a fan of units of 10 nobz unless they are riding a battlewagon.
I've been running minimum-squad Lootas to pretty good effect. For 50 points, they seem like a pretty fantastic deal, even if their shooting is little more than harassment fodder. Beastsnaggas are something I'm building up to, (I've got 20 of them at the moment,) I'm once again worried that attaching the beastbosses makes them too much of a point sink/cannon fodder, since you're doubling the unit's price and getting a considerably smaller durability improvement.
IMO focusing on points per wounds is old edition thinking. You need your mobs to actually kill gak if you want to win a game, and adding a beast boss to a mob of beastsnagga boyz significantly increases their ability to kill stuff. I'm sure I'd rather run two mobs of beastsnaggas with a beastboss attached than a three mobz without a character. That said, I have no experience with either the wurrboy or the painboss, so I'm not sure whether they might actually be worth adding.
I have been running Warbikers in that role, too, but I've been attaching a Wartrike to them - I think I'd be better off running several MSU squads and quietly ignoring their DPS, rather than trying to make them into an assault unit.
A wartrike makes its unit super fast, it's an expensive but reliable way to take over any poorly guarded objective.
I was reading the old Waaagh Ghazgkhull and Sanctus Reach books and thought a Big Mob - trying to do an Orky version of a Knight Banner.
There's not a heck of a lot of options but it might be fun. The Meks can lurk around the walkers with whichever type of firepower I need (but mostly the Morkanauts due to the amount of damage I'll be taking from all that [Hazardous] weaponry)
Anyone tried anything similar? How did it go? Any advice?
Spoiler:
Big Mob (1980 points)
Orks
Strike Force (2000 points)
Waaagh! Tribe
Sure, if your weirdboy explodes and kills half of your mob, that's bad luck. But you might as well have rolled terribly on your charges twice for the same result. Stuff like that just happens.
You can plan for not jumping though. Jumping in this edition is more reliable that it ever was, and people managed with the lower chances in previous editions just fine. Deploy and plan for rolling a '1' so your mob is in a good position even if it doesn't jump. Eventually da jump will get off, and worst case just sling your 'eadbanger at vehicles or monsters to draw your opponents to them.
I don't totally agree on the 'Rolling terribly for charges twice' thing, because charges - and most other forms of luck in the game - typically have ways to mitigate bad luck or at least create a system of counterplay where the luck I need is dependent on my opponent's play.
With charging, a deep strike charge is and always will be a gamble that's never reliable, which is fair. (Though units like Zagstruck with an 'Ere We Go stratagem can make it reasonably likely.)
Outside of set situations like that, (Deep Strike will always need a 9+ before special modifiers,) the distance I need to roll is always the result of both my play and my opponent's counterplay. If I've got a 300 point mob that my opponent is scared of, they might move away from it, making my roll harder, or I might try to pin them in and put the mob in the center, making it more likely to reach. It's a strategic push and pull. (This is one element of old Deep Strikes that I actually preferred - Because you risked damage by being close to enemies, but also got various benefits, you could choose to deep strike far away and safely, or close and with high risk. (Then units like Drop Pods screwed this up by being too reliable/safe, but that's neither here nor there.))
Or, even more directly - Any saving throw is a matter of luck. Rolling a 1 on a 2+ save is bad luck, rolling a 5 on a 6+ save is bad luck. All those elements average out overtime, though, and using things like cover or stratagems to boost defensiveness, or high AP weapons and plunging fire to decrease defensiveness, are ways to influence the balance of luck in a game.
With 'Ere We Go and other '2+ or Middle Finger' abilities, though, there's no way to mitigate it and very few ways to plan for it. Even 'Deploying so you're in a good place even if you roll a 1' isn't always possible, especially if you're trying to run a horde army - If you deploy into prime real estate, you're going to be displacing another unit that can't teleport. Plus, when moving, you have to choose between Advancing and not getting to shoot/sometime charge, even if your teleport is successful and the movement was irrelevant, or staying stationary and screwing yourself even further on a 1.
I'd prefer it a lot if the mortal wounds were higher and the teleport always happened. (Like, on a 2+ you teleport safely, on a one you take 3+d3 mortal wounds, or make it something like an Emergency Disembark rule where you roll based on the number of models being teleported, but you still teleport.) As it stands, I can't imagine taking Weirdboys to any sort of tournament setting, because one bad roll could literally lose you the entire tournament and there's nothing at all you can do to prevent that bad roll from happening.
IMO focusing on points per wounds is old edition thinking. You need your mobs to actually kill gak if you want to win a game, and adding a beast boss to a mob of beastsnagga boyz significantly increases their ability to kill stuff. I'm sure I'd rather run two mobs of beastsnaggas with a beastboss attached than a three mobz without a character.
That said, I have no experience with either the wurrboy or the painboss, so I'm not sure whether they might actually be worth adding.
The Wurrboy seems pretty awful at the moment, IMO - His special power is a Leadership interaction, which I think everyone recognizes isn't as potent as it should be right now and most Leadership abilities are heavily overcosted. He's got no melee, and that just leaves his witchfire as the only reason to take him - But the witchfire is only cost effective in a large horde, and if I'm taking a large horde, I'd much rather bring something to buff that horde instead of just getting a handful of S8 5+ to hit shots.
Painboss is better - albeit something I've had very minimal play with. It's a bit awkward to actually use his 'Heal a Character' ability, but I've seen him play very well with Beastbosses on Squigosaurs, and he's a cheap way to bring extra durability to a bigger mob.
I'm tossing up between the Mad Dok and a regular painboy for my 20 man boyz unit right now; the fall back and charge is really good, but you miss out on bringing d3 boyz back and potential mortals with the 'urty syringe (3+ 4+ needed, might get a couple of goes at it, might roll a 1 if it goes off). There's 5 points between them. Painboy with the trait to fall back and charge is 20 points more in total. Leaning towards mad dok.
My issue with FNP5 is, the moment the opponent brings d2 or more weapons is basically not worth it, the inv shines is there, would be great if you could bring both and it was cheap. Also it's worth shooting them, since they are around 200pts a unit.
FNP is great in units like hogs but i find it rare being shot by D1 weapons if i bring it. It's not like it would be overpowered Anyway, plenty of armies have access to data sheets that cost less and have similar defensive profiles while being killy.
Playing that without a mek workshop feels like a sin.
I can swap meks #2 and #3 for a workshop but I think I'd rather have the lone operative characters to follow the 'nauts up the board. Besides, they give +1 to hit...
I do keep thinking about an alternate dumb meme list based on fortifications and artillery, though.
I do keep thinking about an alternate dumb meme list based on fortifications and artillery, though.
Out of curiosity, how big is the mekboy workshop? And in a situation like this would you just string it across your backfield with mek gunz and lootas to deny deepstrike while healing the overheats from kmk?
I'm getting me a workshop just to experiment with it; I feel like it would be great for screening out the backfield. Worst case, i've just bought some more terrain, not the worst thing.
Thing is, with it affecting every vehicle, and mek guns and bunkas having the vehicle keyword, the idea of three bunkas, 3 batteries of gunz, a workshop (maybe two) and a few other squads as like a fortress line seems quite a cool army.
Been using Mega Nobz with twin kill saws for the first time today, accompanied by a Big mek in Mega Armor that is.
I am.. definitely underwhelmed by their damage outside the waaagh, with a measly two attacks getting no +1 to hit in melee. While their defensive profile is pretty good with the KFF and all, the 2 attacks hitting on 4s with twin linked seemed to amount to no damage at all.
Big mek + 5 mega nobz failed to kill ahriman (outside the waagh) which 10 beast snagga boys could have easily killed. and that wasnt because he made hot saves, i just.. didnt do anything.
Then later against magnus the same happened. No real damage. And surely i rolled under average on the hit roll but even so. The 2 standard attacks are lacking, and against someone like Ahriman i think i would rather have an extra attack than twin linked (aka my powerklaw).
I think people said twin kill saws were the way forward, but im inclined to lean towards killsaw/Power klaw combo so i can pick the best weapon for the situation.
But i will need more games with double kill saws first. Initial thought though is that it isnt that great.
Except on the waagh turn then its pretty good to fish for devastating wounds.
In feel like green tide has been broke by design. GW does not want boyz without support to be a viable army, and I personally think that is a good thing. It requires some work for those who are used to playing that type of list and as it forces you to rethink how your army plays.
That said, I don't think all infantry lists are dead.
/.../
In general, your goal is not to table your opponent. Your goal is to push them out of midfield and prevent them from scoring as many secondaries as possible. You will end up killed or mostly killed in the majority of your games, but you will still win by a landslide of VP. Be aware that banking on a single defensive profile can backfire in 10th, as you might run into an army that is hyper effective at killing boyz. In that case you just lose.
I´m struggling playing the midfield. I move the BW, Trukks, Nauts or similar to capture it but mostly get shot off and the melee threat is then whittled down by small arms. I somehow don´t get how to pace this part right.
Beardedragon wrote: Been using Mega Nobz with twin kill saws for the first time today, accompanied by a Big mek in Mega Armor that is.
I am.. definitely underwhelmed by their damage outside the waaagh, with a measly two attacks getting no +1 to hit in melee. While their defensive profile is pretty good with the KFF and all, the 2 attacks hitting on 4s with twin linked seemed to amount to no damage at all.
Big mek + 5 mega nobz failed to kill ahriman (outside the waagh) which 10 beast snagga boys could have easily killed. and that wasnt because he made hot saves, i just.. didnt do anything.
Then later against magnus the same happened. No real damage. And surely i rolled under average on the hit roll but even so. The 2 standard attacks are lacking, and against someone like Ahriman i think i would rather have an extra attack than twin linked (aka my powerklaw).
I think people said twin kill saws were the way forward, but im inclined to lean towards killsaw/Power klaw combo so i can pick the best weapon for the situation.
But i will need more games with double kill saws first. Initial thought though is that it isnt that great.
Except on the waagh turn then its pretty good to fish for devastating wounds.
I feel like, at least on paper, it looks like "Killsaws go with Warbosses, Power Klaws go with Meks."
Warbosses in Mega Armor have 12 strength, matching the Killsaw, so you don't have to worry about mismatched targets. They also compensate for a lower number of attacks with their accuracy buff, making for a unit that can deal some pretty scary S12 hits. A full sized trukk mob is potentially throwing out 50% more hits (8.5 hits versus 13) than the same mob with a Big Mek outside of WAAAGH turns, and on WAAAGH turns you're getting 40% more hits. (12.5 versus 17.5)
Spoiler:
Caveat: Some of the Warboss hits are AP-2, not AP-3.
Meks, meanwhile, can take Klaws that match Meganob Klaws, meaning there's no Strength mismatch, and they can buff the Meganob shooting - which works better on a Klaw unit than a Saw unit. And sure, the shooting is never going to be *amazing*, but it's still nice to make full use of a unit's buffs, rather than just partial use. Plus, with the Mek, your objective is to be a sticky blob that's really hard to shoot off the board, you're less concerned about DPS against really beefy targets.
Yea.. thats true. I did think about the Warboss in mega armor but his own waaagh round ability is just effing useless. a 4+++ to himself? Why would i care. Usually if he gets targeted the rest of his unit is dead, by which, i dont care about whether hes alive or not as he only has 4 attacks anyway.
His only redeeming quality is his +1 to hit in melee to the Mega Nobz, which do actually make him a tiny consideration for me.
On the other hand the Big Mek can ressurrect mega nobz, heal them and give them a 4++ against ranged attacks. thats pretty slick, he simply misses the +1 to hit.
The Big mek over all seem like he gives much better survivability and utility for the Mega Nobz, where as the Warboss in mega armor, is over all not a good enough combatant, and his +1 to hit seem not as good as the things the big mek does for the mega nobz.
So over all the defensive buffs of one, seem to outweight the damage buff from the other. But i could be wrong. Actually being able to deploy the mega nobz to the frontline without dying seem like better value than being able to deal good damage when you get there, except you are most likely missing the entire or half the unit when you get there.
I wish the Warboss in mega armor had the same buff to extra waaagh attacks as the normal warboss did, rather than his useless 4+++
dan2026 wrote: How do people run Badrukk and his Flash Gitz mob?
Start in a Trukk and burn up the board?
On foot?
Some other way?
I usually put them in a Trukk and depending on the opponent I either put them in Strategic Reserves or drive them up the board on a specific flank. They're usually one of the last ones I do deploy on the table if they're not going into reserves so you can ideally make sure they're downrange of an ideal target (which thankfully are most things, if you can pop off the ammo runt). I don't like them on foot because they're an ideal target for enemy overwatch and it's too easy for them to be singled out for deep striking units. With a trukk, you can shoot at least in some capacity in safety and then pop out when you're in ideal cover or position to light up a unit where you can ensure you can avoid as much damage as possible.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beardedragon wrote: Yea.. thats true. I did think about the Warboss in mega armor but his own waaagh round ability is just effing useless. a 4+++ to himself? Why would i care. Usually if he gets targeted the rest of his unit is dead, by which, i dont care about whether hes alive or not as he only has 4 attacks anyway.
His only redeeming quality is his +1 to hit in melee to the Mega Nobz, which do actually make him a tiny consideration for me.
On the other hand the Big Mek can ressurrect mega nobz, heal them and give them a 4++ against ranged attacks. thats pretty slick, he simply misses the +1 to hit.
The Big mek over all seem like he gives much better survivability and utility for the Mega Nobz, where as the Warboss in mega armor, is over all not a good enough combatant, and his +1 to hit seem not as good as the things the big mek does for the mega nobz.
So over all the defensive buffs of one, seem to outweight the damage buff from the other. But i could be wrong. Actually being able to deploy the mega nobz to the frontline without dying seem like better value than being able to deal good damage when you get there, except you are most likely missing the entire or half the unit when you get there.
I wish the Warboss in mega armor had the same buff to extra waaagh attacks as the normal warboss did, rather than his useless 4+++
Yeah, the Warboss in Mega Armour has a really big missed opportunity on getting a much more meaningful buff during a WAAAGH! turn. If they really want to focus up on him and his unit being dead 'ard during a WAAAGH! either make it so the entire unit gets a 4+ FNP on a WAAAGH! Turn or that they are able to get something like Strike First or even -1D for that turn. As it is, there's very little incentive to take him.
Beardedragon wrote: Yea.. thats true. I did think about the Warboss in mega armor but his own waaagh round ability is just effing useless. a 4+++ to himself? Why would i care. Usually if he gets targeted the rest of his unit is dead, by which, i dont care about whether hes alive or not as he only has 4 attacks anyway.
His only redeeming quality is his +1 to hit in melee to the Mega Nobz, which do actually make him a tiny consideration for me.
On the other hand the Big Mek can ressurrect mega nobz, heal them and give them a 4++ against ranged attacks. thats pretty slick, he simply misses the +1 to hit.
The Big mek over all seem like he gives much better survivability and utility for the Mega Nobz, where as the Warboss in mega armor, is over all not a good enough combatant, and his +1 to hit seem not as good as the things the big mek does for the mega nobz.
So over all the defensive buffs of one, seem to outweight the damage buff from the other. But i could be wrong. Actually being able to deploy the mega nobz to the frontline without dying seem like better value than being able to deal good damage when you get there, except you are most likely missing the entire or half the unit when you get there.
I wish the Warboss in mega armor had the same buff to extra waaagh attacks as the normal warboss did, rather than his useless 4+++
That's pretty fair, I'm not trying to argue that it's an equivalent choice, just that both weapons get their own niche.
It is pretty weird and unfortunate that Megabosses have by far the worst 'Boss' ability in the codex. Comparing every character that has a "+1 to Hit and another ability" profile, nothing is as situational or weak as the Megaboss.
That said, if I'm rolling in a Battlewagon, I'm not going to be as worried about durability as if I'm footslogging, and if nothing else, +1 to hit does still increase dps by a solid 25%. The real problem, IMO, is not that the damage is bad, but that the damage niche overlaps too much with other units.
Orks have plenty of specialists for taking out vehicles and monsters, which cover 99% of high-toughness units where S12/13 matters. Sure, I could take 230 points of Meganobz+Warboss in a 180pt transport... Or I could take two squads of Squighog Boyz with Nobz, or a couple beastbosses with beastboys, or a Beastboss on a Squigosaur.
The only niche Meganobz fill well that isn't covered by other roles is durability, which is supplemented by a Big Mek, and I find that I'd rather play to a units strengths than try to shore up its weaknesses.
...that said, Ghazzy with six Meganobz coming in with Strategic Reserves seems like it could be pretty gnarly DPS, and compensates for their slow movement. Plus you don't even really need S12 when you have +1 to Wound and Lethal Hits.
You'd have to go for a Turn 2 WAAAGH, though, which might be too late - has anyone had luck with this?
Beardedragon wrote: Yea.. thats true. I did think about the Warboss in mega armor but his own waaagh round ability is just effing useless. a 4+++ to himself? Why would i care. Usually if he gets targeted the rest of his unit is dead, by which, i dont care about whether hes alive or not as he only has 4 attacks anyway.
His only redeeming quality is his +1 to hit in melee to the Mega Nobz, which do actually make him a tiny consideration for me.
On the other hand the Big Mek can ressurrect mega nobz, heal them and give them a 4++ against ranged attacks. thats pretty slick, he simply misses the +1 to hit.
The Big mek over all seem like he gives much better survivability and utility for the Mega Nobz, where as the Warboss in mega armor, is over all not a good enough combatant, and his +1 to hit seem not as good as the things the big mek does for the mega nobz.
So over all the defensive buffs of one, seem to outweight the damage buff from the other. But i could be wrong. Actually being able to deploy the mega nobz to the frontline without dying seem like better value than being able to deal good damage when you get there, except you are most likely missing the entire or half the unit when you get there.
I wish the Warboss in mega armor had the same buff to extra waaagh attacks as the normal warboss did, rather than his useless 4+++
That's pretty fair, I'm not trying to argue that it's an equivalent choice, just that both weapons get their own niche.
It is pretty weird and unfortunate that Megabosses have by far the worst 'Boss' ability in the codex. Comparing every character that has a "+1 to Hit and another ability" profile, nothing is as situational or weak as the Megaboss.
That said, if I'm rolling in a Battlewagon, I'm not going to be as worried about durability as if I'm footslogging, and if nothing else, +1 to hit does still increase dps by a solid 25%. The real problem, IMO, is not that the damage is bad, but that the damage niche overlaps too much with other units.
Orks have plenty of specialists for taking out vehicles and monsters, which cover 99% of high-toughness units where S12/13 matters. Sure, I could take 230 points of Meganobz+Warboss in a 180pt transport... Or I could take two squads of Squighog Boyz with Nobz, or a couple beastbosses with beastboys, or a Beastboss on a Squigosaur.
The only niche Meganobz fill well that isn't covered by other roles is durability, which is supplemented by a Big Mek, and I find that I'd rather play to a units strengths than try to shore up its weaknesses.
...that said, Ghazzy with six Meganobz coming in with Strategic Reserves seems like it could be pretty gnarly DPS, and compensates for their slow movement. Plus you don't even really need S12 when you have +1 to Wound and Lethal Hits.
You'd have to go for a Turn 2 WAAAGH, though, which might be too late - has anyone had luck with this?
oh but i already am using 5 mega Nobz with Ghaz, i simply ran 5 more with a big mek, but i had to figure out if i should shift them out with a warboss in Mega Armor. They stroll around in a trukk though, so not really the most durable transport. I need a few more games in to determine what makes most sense. Maybe i dont really need the 4++ from a big mek and i end up actually shifting to the mega boss.
Also whats wrong with round 2 waaaghs? Most ork players i know usually call a waaagh by round 2. I think thats the most Waaagh'ed round generally unless you use a REALLY speedy list for round 1 waaaghs.
Usually i just move up the board while trying to stay in cover and out of sight with my trukks, seems to work fine.
Did not fully understand that turn 1 waaagh, i also only call it T2, rarely see a case unless i am playing against an opponent that I know will be on my deploy T1. Nids do it reliable in the new detach.
Forceride wrote: Did not fully understand that turn 1 waaagh, i also only call it T2, rarely see a case unless i am playing against an opponent that I know will be on my deploy T1. Nids do it reliable in the new detach.
Huh. Conventional wisdom at my LGS is that you should Turn 1 Waaagh, and I'd been playing on that assumption - I guess I shouldn't have assumed that three locals are a bulletproof source of info. 😅
Automatically Appended Next Post: I threw together another test list, trying to go for better board control and avoid taking too many characters.
Spoiler:
Another Footslogger List (2000 points)
Waaagh! Tribe
CHARACTERS
Big Mek in Mega Armour (110 points)
• Warlord
• 1x Grot Oiler
1x Kustom Force Field
1x Kustom mega-blasta
1x Power klaw
• Enhancement: Follow Me Ladz
Nob on Smasha Squig (80 points)
• 1x Big choppa
1x Slugga
1x Smasha squig jaws
• Enhancement: Headwoppa’s Killchoppa
Nob on Smasha Squig (60 points)
• 1x Big choppa
1x Slugga
1x Smasha squig jaws
Warbikers (70 points)
• 1x Boss Nob on Warbike
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Twin dakkagun
• 2x Warbiker
• 2x Close combat weapon
2x Twin dakkagun
Warbikers (70 points)
• 1x Boss Nob on Warbike
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Twin dakkagun
• 2x Warbiker
• 2x Close combat weapon
2x Twin dakkagun
Warbikers (70 points)
• 1x Boss Nob on Warbike
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Twin dakkagun
• 2x Warbiker
• 2x Close combat weapon
2x Twin dakkagun
Meganobz are meant to clog up the center of the board, bikes flank and harass, squighogs also flank and harass, hopefully killing vehicles, stormboyz deep strike to grab secondaries.
Kommandoes apply early pressure, lootas and grots camp to screen Deep Strikers and hold objectives, and Beastsnaggas pressing enemy shooting and charge forward to try to get into the enemy's face.
I have a GT coming up and I had a realisation after losing heavily this week in a practice game, and having a good chat with my opponent about it, that the models I want to take means it's really hard to write a competative list, and if I'm prepared to set my expectation at zero wins, I can lean into just making as fun a list as possible.
I'll make my competative aim to get more than half of the points available in each game - so including 10 for painted, 55+. With that said, I'm not looking for list advice, but any tactical knowledge on how to do that would be appreciated
2 Meks, one with SCB
Mekboy workshop
3x11 grotz
2 Gorkanauts
Morkanaut
Stompa
I should add, it's on UKTC terrain, so I can hide everything except the stompa, which can't hide completely if I go anywhere with it. Hiding means getting into combat sometimes R3 instead of R2. I'm thinking unless they can take down more than one big guy T1, i'm better off on the line with the titanic units.
(here's the mission pack https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WV085gGnMPOF-zprcri-9HDW5BWBE34HGc9ndIGRJHM/edit)
I am honestly going to try and break the current transport focus, i want to see if i can make a half decent list that does not depend so much on truck...
I haven't been lucky so far...
Jidmah pointed in the correct direction of aiming for kommandos, trying to consider other useful tools i can bring. Wish me luck.
Also going to test Gaz from reserves, who knows, might work.
Forceride wrote: I am honestly going to try and break the current transport focus, i want to see if i can make a half decent list that does not depend so much on truck...
I haven't been lucky so far...
Jidmah pointed in the correct direction of aiming for kommandos, trying to consider other useful tools i can bring. Wish me luck.
Also going to test Gaz from reserves, who knows, might work.
I've been trying to do the same thing! Please let me know what luck you have.
Squighog Boyz for damage and speed and Lootas for backfield board control and fire support have both been useful for me, but I'm struggling to win with pure footslogging. I think you're right that reserves and Kommandos are the way to go.
Forceride wrote: I am honestly going to try and break the current transport focus, i want to see if i can make a half decent list that does not depend so much on truck...
I haven't been lucky so far...
Jidmah pointed in the correct direction of aiming for kommandos, trying to consider other useful tools i can bring. Wish me luck.
Also going to test Gaz from reserves, who knows, might work.
I've been trying to do the same thing! Please let me know what luck you have.
Squighog Boyz for damage and speed and Lootas for backfield board control and fire support have both been useful for me, but I'm struggling to win with pure footslogging. I think you're right that reserves and Kommandos are the way to go.
Facing what i think is a heavily competitive nid list today... i suspect vanguard. I am honestly more inclined for buggy/defkopta support on the back lines, more reliable shots, de-buffs and about the same cost, i am still carrying 2 trucks of 5 nobz. But yeah squighogs and kommandos is the way i think.. not so sure of reserved Ghaz. On the bugguies i think snazz wagon and kustom-boosta are winners so far, rukkatruck might be good too.
My issue with ghaz is the cost for what he bring into the table.
PaddyMick wrote: I have a GT coming up and I had a realisation after losing heavily this week in a practice game, and having a good chat with my opponent about it, that the models I want to take means it's really hard to write a competative list, and if I'm prepared to set my expectation at zero wins, I can lean into just making as fun a list as possible.
I'll make my competative aim to get more than half of the points available in each game - so including 10 for painted, 55+. With that said, I'm not looking for list advice, but any tactical knowledge on how to do that would be appreciated
2 Meks, one with SCB
Mekboy workshop
3x11 grotz
2 Gorkanauts
Morkanaut
Stompa
I should add, it's on UKTC terrain, so I can hide everything except the stompa, which can't hide completely if I go anywhere with it. Hiding means getting into combat sometimes R3 instead of R2. I'm thinking unless they can take down more than one big guy T1, i'm better off on the line with the titanic units.
(here's the mission pack https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WV085gGnMPOF-zprcri-9HDW5BWBE34HGc9ndIGRJHM/edit)
No worries, i'll hopefully have some practice games to report on soon
My mekboy workshop has just arrived; sounds a bit gamey, but stringing it out, you can have a line about 40'' long, screening out deep strikers, healing vehicles within 12'', that the enemy can't move over. It can be destoyed of course (80 points, T9, 10W, 4+ save)
That's bigger than I thought! I was considering it as part of a sort of fortress line (with Bigead Boss Bunkas and mek guns) and wasn't sure if I'd need 1 or 2 to cover most of the board. Looks like 1 should be fine.
And....yes it can be destroyed but if your opponent is putting lascannon and railgun fire into THAT it's not going into thr massive Stompa spitting deffkannon shells and rokkits. I call that a win.
The fact that oath of moment is no longer 'instant death to centrepiece models vs space marines' is reassuring too.
Facing what i think is a heavily competitive nid list today... i suspect vanguard. I am honestly more inclined for buggy/defkopta support on the back lines, more reliable shots, de-buffs and about the same cost, i am still carrying 2 trucks of 5 nobz. But yeah squighogs and kommandos is the way i think.. not so sure of reserved Ghaz. On the bugguies i think snazz wagon and kustom-boosta are winners so far, rukkatruck might be good too.
My issue with ghaz is the cost for what he bring into the table.
if you can, dont bring buggy or koptaz, use grottanks with rokkits. highly mobile, with a reaction-move build in. good defences and 5 rokkits for 155points with bs4 is a steal on such a platform.
for ghaz... consider rapid ingress on enemy turn. put him somwhere near behind LOS. you may not be able to hide him entirely... but you dont need that. just make sure not the entire enemy army has LOS. REMEMBER. he's infantry now, so he can just waltz through ruins, walls etc.
mekboy workshop has just arrived; sounds a bit gamey, but stringing it out, you can have a line about 40'' long, screening out deep strikers, healing vehicles within 12'', that the enemy can't move over. It can be destoyed of course (80 points, T9, 10W, 4+ save)
Fun fact: the workshop has the vehicle keyword, so it repairs itself each turn...
mekboy workshop has just arrived; sounds a bit gamey, but stringing it out, you can have a line about 40'' long, screening out deep strikers, healing vehicles within 12'', that the enemy can't move over. It can be destoyed of course (80 points, T9, 10W, 4+ save)
Fun fact: the workshop has the vehicle keyword, so it repairs itself each turn...
So can Meka dreads. So its not as unique as it sounds.
mekboy workshop has just arrived; sounds a bit gamey, but stringing it out, you can have a line about 40'' long, screening out deep strikers, healing vehicles within 12'', that the enemy can't move over. It can be destoyed of course (80 points, T9, 10W, 4+ save)
Fun fact: the workshop has the vehicle keyword, so it repairs itself each turn...
Yes that's funny but i've realised that also means your own vehicles can't move across it, so positioning is critical.
Facing what i think is a heavily competitive nid list today... i suspect vanguard. I am honestly more inclined for buggy/defkopta support on the back lines, more reliable shots, de-buffs and about the same cost, i am still carrying 2 trucks of 5 nobz. But yeah squighogs and kommandos is the way i think.. not so sure of reserved Ghaz. On the bugguies i think snazz wagon and kustom-boosta are winners so far, rukkatruck might be good too.
My issue with ghaz is the cost for what he bring into the table.
if you can, dont bring buggy or koptaz, use grottanks with rokkits. highly mobile, with a reaction-move build in. good defences and 5 rokkits for 155points with bs4 is a steal on such a platform.
for ghaz... consider rapid ingress on enemy turn. put him somwhere near behind LOS. you may not be able to hide him entirely... but you dont need that. just make sure not the entire enemy army has LOS. REMEMBER. he's infantry now, so he can just waltz through ruins, walls etc.
Don't have the model, but this was me just trying to see if i can get way from trucks. Kommandos and hogs were fine for what they were there to do. It still went how i expected, since it was my first time dealing with the list. Von Ryan's leapers are anti infantry and can't be dealt easily with simply kommandos or nobz, i realized this too late, and should have moved my cavalry to deal with them. Their obnoxious hard to deal with shooting too. Neurolictor is an amazing support expect one in every list, handle them fast since it empowers stuff greatly with things like +1 to hit and +1 wound if BS.
Snazzwagon is too weak to be close to the frontlines, even though it's aura is great, i am considering going back to the boosta.
Ghaz is going back to the shelf, coupled with it's high cost and the fact it needs T2 to do impact makes it completely worthless... he killed 2 exocrine's and flyrant before i conceeded, again my issue is not the datasheet it's the cost to make it viable 5nobz+ghaz is steep.. and i can get more out of those points with other stuff.
The kommandos squig bombs are nasty, managed to down a neurolictor T1, but considering my opponent had ample tools to deal with infantry, i was heading into big probs. Between genstealers and the von ryan's i was hard pressed attempting to clean stuff, mostly because of the cavalry mistake.
Thought's:
Ghaz can work but needs something that can handle itself in the table with out his help until T2... i am not sure this is possible due to cost
I am currently considering that maybe bikes might also be an option in the list..or stormboyz
I haven't tried slabs of 20 boyz, but it would be interesting to try, although it makes the list vulnerable to T10 or above, also the slabs become expensive since they need support of 2 characters.
kommandos are really good for soaking ranged, but their just boyz, the flamer ain't worth it but the rokkit might be.
hogs are a must have, bring 3x3 units with nob
meck guns might have a place here
Stormboys and warbikes are very good at the moment as far moving objective capping units and action monkeys. Stormboys go to objectives they can hide on, Bikes to to where their better defensive profile is most useful.
For Kommandos I'd say the defacto loadout for them is Klaw/Rokkit/Ram/Squig/Grot. You only lose out on two slugga shots and get a better ranged and melee profile, and with a once per game 5++.
I agree on Ghaz; he needs to not take up so many spaces in transports, and he needs to be able to join something other than MANz. If he only took up the space of 12 models (and fill up a trukk by himself) and he could join Nobs, you would either have a classic MANz missile on roids or an absurdly dangerous Battlewagon that your opponent would absolutely have to deal with turn one.
Mek Gunz are pretty decent, but I'm finding it hard to justify them at the moment. Id probably only take one or two, if I took any at all.
Stormboys and warbikes are very good at the moment as far moving objective capping units and action monkeys. Stormboys go to objectives they can hide on, Bikes to to where their better defensive profile is most useful.
For Kommandos I'd say the defacto loadout for them is Klaw/Rokkit/Ram/Squig/Grot. You only lose out on two slugga shots and get a better ranged and melee profile, and with a once per game 5++.
I agree on Ghaz; he needs to not take up so many spaces in transports, and he needs to be able to join something other than MANz. If he only took up the space of 12 models (and fill up a trukk by himself) and he could join Nobs, you would either have a classic MANz missile on roids or an absurdly dangerous Battlewagon that your opponent would absolutely have to deal with turn one.
Mek Gunz are pretty decent, but I'm finding it hard to justify them at the moment. Id probably only take one or two, if I took any at all.
hmmmm, you might be right on mek guns, might consider mekadreads or something like it, else i will lack tool to deal with high T
Tried another footslogging game with Orks, and encountered the same problem, again:
Unless we're using Dawn of War deployment, I just can't get to the enemy fast enough with enough firepower, meanwhile, ranged armies are able to fire on me with full impunity.
I played against Tau, with the table-corner deployment time, and since he deployed back away from his front line, I had little that could get close. He got first turn, and my Kommandos - I brought two units - both got obliterated, in part by flamers that had Ignores Cover, and then he sank some long range firepower into my bikers, killing all six of them that I'd brought.
By the end of turn one, I'd lost a solid 400pts of my army, and it was the units that were most well equipped to get up close and personal. I was only able to get off two charges. One of these - A unit of Squighogs hitting six of his battlesuits plus a coldstar - was able to do some damage, but nothing coming remotely close to what he'd inflicted on me.
On turn two, he made some pretty noticeable targeting mistakes, and I rolled exceptionally well on saving throws, and even with all that I was still losing. When his battlesuits fired at my squighogs (who were engaged with the suits,) I used the "-1 to Wound" stratagem on them, and he still chose to not only fire them, but a pretty large amount of his army's shooting at the hogs, meaning the shots were taking -1 to hit and wound on most of his army. And, as I said above, I was *very* lucky on this turn, taking damage well below what I should have.
Even then, he killed all the hogs and injured several other units. The incredible luck on my part (and the decision to attack my most durable unit on his part) didn't mean I started winning, it just meant I wasn't abjectly losing. And he did use Overwatch in a tactical way to kill one of my units that was moving to grab a secondary objective, meaning I had to choose between trying to charge his broadside battlesuits with my stormboyz or using them to grab the secondary.
We had to call the game partway through Turn 3 just because of time, but while I was keeping up on Victory Points - barely, we were tied - I was *not* keeping up on damage in the slightest. His DPS actually went *up* on Turn 3 because of the Tau army rule, meaning he was killing my army FASTER, and I was shedding the ability to hurt him. I was well set to score multiple Secondary objectives that turn, at least - I was probably going to get ahead on points for one turn - but after that, he was going to be scoring more than me for the remainder of the game.
I really just don't see a way to play this army without Trukks. Even with excellent luck and inadvisable targeting choices, I was still shedding units too fast and didn't have any way to stop it.
I think I'm going to give up my quest, for now, and just embrace the meta.
Generaly the armies based on “need to waltz over the board” do not work unless:
1. Most of the army has a FLY
2. Can do 24” and charge or something
3. Preferably both.
You can shoot down such army, unless super tough.
You can screen such army. Say hallo to warbikers or kommandos but other armies have such units too. I was always happy to faceing some super deadly TEQ walking armies with my speedmob. Just feed them with single warbiker unit a turn and they will strugle to get more than 6” from their deployment. And the rest of your army can just shoot and shoot and score and shoot… boring.
So yes, trying to footslog over the board without some nasty tricks does not work.
The same with the armies based on “I drop from deepstrike turn 2”.
Well… maybe you will. But if your opponent is clever enough, the place you will be able to drop will be totaly stupid for you.
And if your opponent is even more clever and has a right type of army, he can kill your deepstrike units just by screening the whole field. My deffkoptas and two jets died such way once and it was a very hard lesson. And I did something similar to some eldar guy later too.
The speed / mobility is very important. It gives you an option to fight where you need againts the units you want. It gives you the iniciativ.
Stormboys and warbikes are very good at the moment as far moving objective capping units and action monkeys. Stormboys go to objectives they can hide on, Bikes to to where their better defensive profile is most useful.
For Kommandos I'd say the defacto loadout for them is Klaw/Rokkit/Ram/Squig/Grot. You only lose out on two slugga shots and get a better ranged and melee profile, and with a once per game 5++.
I agree on Ghaz; he needs to not take up so many spaces in transports, and he needs to be able to join something other than MANz. If he only took up the space of 12 models (and fill up a trukk by himself) and he could join Nobs, you would either have a classic MANz missile on roids or an absurdly dangerous Battlewagon that your opponent would absolutely have to deal with turn one.
Mek Gunz are pretty decent, but I'm finding it hard to justify them at the moment. Id probably only take one or two, if I took any at all.
Ghaz was competitive but not overpowered during the first month of 10th Ed when he was only taking 2 slots in a trukk.. He needs to drop to 10 or 6 slots.
Ghaz was competitive but not overpowered during the first month of 10th Ed when he was only taking 2 slots in a trukk.. He needs to drop to 10 or 6 slots.
IMO, the issue with Ghaz is they made him this enormous Primarch-sized mini, then decided they just wanted him to be a beefy Warboss again...but are still accounting for the size of the mini, for some reason.
10 slots would be ideal, IMO - it would mean he could ride in a Battlewagon with a full retinue of Meganobz, but make it so he can't be in a Trukk with a retinue at all. I like that, because it means he's more likely to take a transport befitting his status. (Ghazzy in a cheap trukk just doesn't feel right to me, from a fluff standpoint.)
RedNoak wrote: Stupid question.... Why not just rapid ingress ghaz?
You *can*, but this is pretty limiting. If your opponent screens board edges, you're in major trouble. If you get first turn, Rapid Ingress won't help you and you'll probably not get Ghazzy into melee until turn three - and you won't know if you have first turn until after you put him in reserves.
Waaaghpower wrote: Tried another footslogging game with Orks, and encountered the same problem, again:
Unless we're using Dawn of War deployment, I just can't get to the enemy fast enough with enough firepower, meanwhile, ranged armies are able to fire on me with full impunity.
What terrain where you playing on? 10th needs alot of LoS blocking to not be dumb
RedNoak wrote: Stupid question.... Why not just rapid ingress ghaz?
The only stupid question is an unanswered one, ask away, bask in the knowledge of the waaghh.
But waaaghpower nailed it pretty much, there is nothing wrong with Ghaz , but a combination of soft stats that make it a bad choice, namely mobility, defense and cost. Sure you can reserve ghaz but you pay a premium and you only have him at T2, so you have to hold the line and when he hit's the table he needs to make an impression... if you weigh these in, he is hard to pull off.
Yeah, i still say that shooting is op this edition. So terrain needs careful deliberation, i generally decline playing in tables with less then 9 pieces if the other side is shooty like tau. That there is the crime, that terrain makes or brakes your game, not your choices or mistakes, terrain is.
Waaaghpower wrote: Tried another footslogging game with Orks, and encountered the same problem, again:
Unless we're using Dawn of War deployment, I just can't get to the enemy fast enough with enough firepower, meanwhile, ranged armies are able to fire on me with full impunity.
What terrain where you playing on? 10th needs alot of LoS blocking to not be dumb
there was a fair amount of LoS blocking - maybe not quite as much as there could have been, but the board was fairly well saturated.
However, he didn't have to shoot my entire army. He just shot the stuff that was deployed the furthest forward, and generally the most exposed because it was closest. Any units I had that were guaranteed a charge got targeted first, and were threadbare and mostly dead by the time they arrived, and because the horde units took up so much space with their 32mm bases, and his army was able to deploy *very* far away, I was never able to get a majority of my army close at the same time.
Ghaz was competitive but not overpowered during the first month of 10th Ed when he was only taking 2 slots in a trukk.. He needs to drop to 10 or 6 slots.
IMO, the issue with Ghaz is they made him this enormous Primarch-sized mini, then decided they just wanted him to be a beefy Warboss again...but are still accounting for the size of the mini, for some reason.
10 slots would be ideal, IMO - it would mean he could ride in a Battlewagon with a full retinue of Meganobz, but make it so he can't be in a Trukk with a retinue at all. I like that, because it means he's more likely to take a transport befitting his status. (Ghazzy in a cheap trukk just doesn't feel right to me, from a fluff standpoint.)
I’d prefer 6 for a trukk with a 3 manz missle or battlewagon with 6 manz since he’s limited to manz only. But my point originally was he was fairly Balanced even when he was only counted for 2 in trukks. Which leads me to beleive he’s a bit overpriced and underpowered at 10 transport slots.
Yeah, Ghaz is in a really weird spot rule wise. Would love to use him more but you have to bend over backwards with both the retinue and his transport or reserve usage so much it's just easier to take a Beastboss on Squigosaur.
Hes a beatstick that tends to struggle to find something to beat up.
Few times ive used him whatever he hits just dies, no questions asked. Problem is its only once been something of actual value and not just chaff out of...probably 8 games before i stopped using him.
You literally have to rapid ingress him, but theres rarely anything tasty on the sides outside of the enemy deployment and T3 is way too late.
Ahhh ok. Now I see. Never was a big fan of ghaz... But now I get the difficulties of him and rapid ingress... Just coming from normal reserves is pretty limiting.
Yeah, we would need either a detachment where it brings back the tellyporta stratagem in our new codex or a revamp to Ghaz's transport size number to really have him make a comeback to be honest. Or at least make him able to lead a unit besides just Meganobz.
I guess they are afraid of mixed save units for some reason.
From playing him a couple of times, I'm fairly convinced that he should stop being a leader and work like the squigboss instead. Or maybe have the MANz as an optional retinue, similar to tyrant guard joining a hive tyrant.
Jidmah wrote: I guess they are afraid of mixed save units for some reason.
From playing him a couple of times, I'm fairly convinced that he should stop being a leader and work like the squigboss instead. Or maybe have the MANz as an optional retinue, similar to tyrant guard joining a hive tyrant.
They could have given him LO while within whatever distance of Nobz/MANz if they're scared of mixed saves.
Mixed save hardly reason since defender can never allocate to leader himself. So doesn't matter if leader has different save to unit. Ghaz isn"t soaking single hit away from unit he leads unless attacker has precision and wants.
Non-leader unit attachments can lead into problems but rare.
tneva82 wrote: Mixed save hardly reason since defender can never allocate to leader himself. So doesn't matter if leader has different save to unit. Ghaz isn"t soaking single hit away from unit he leads unless attacker has precision and wants.
Non-leader unit attachments can lead into problems but rare.
The interaction is still un-intuitive, so it makes sense to avoid it. Thrakka is just one of the few instances where I feel like we already have better mechanisms in the game. I mean, there is a reason why Mortarion doesn't attach to units either, right?
tneva82 wrote: Mixed save hardly reason since defender can never allocate to leader himself. So doesn't matter if leader has different save to unit. Ghaz isn"t soaking single hit away from unit he leads unless attacker has precision and wants.
Non-leader unit attachments can lead into problems but rare.
The interaction is still un-intuitive, so it makes sense to avoid it. Thrakka is just one of the few instances where I feel like we already have better mechanisms in the game. I mean, there is a reason why Mortarion doesn't attach to units either, right?
still, you know GW. they would make him a monster again... i'd rather have him as infantry leading two MANz.
but yeah, a 235 point model shouldnt be a force multiplier for one even more expensiv unit. at least mortarion can buff units around him. especially since the one to hit and wound and even the lethals ability arent great for ghaz himself.
i think with deep strike and two manz at 300point,s he would make a nice, even if expensive (points and CP wise) killing blow unit. dev instead of lethals would be more appropiate though
I would make makari buff global while makari is alive and apply to all attacks. Meanwhile i would give Ghaz the lone operative keyword. Keep everything else. Still a beat stick but now it has a reason to be on the table. Dakkajet with crits on 5 would be hilarious. But that's all a dream.
You don't need a lone operative keyword if Thrakka is sufficiently tough to kill. The swarmlord or the bug version of ol' one eye are good examples of such an approach.
If you want to hide Thrakka, you can attach him to a unit, but it should be viable to just run him (and Makari) solo.
yeah, you could give him more resilience but i figure it would take more rules, lone operative just makes it with less rules, that was my point of view, also as soon he joined a retinue he would lose lone operative. Anyway that's just an idea, i would defo like to see Ghaz get a rule tune up or his price come down to reflect his power.
I'm coming back to the game after... long enough to have missed a few things. I read through most of the thread but I have a couple questions.
Are people finding beast snaggas to be a "must use" kinda unit, or is it reasonable to get by with a few power klaws and rokkits sprinkled through a list? Same question with the squighog boyz. I like playing Kult of Speed if that matters.
What are people doing with looted wagons and other conversions? I know games with friends are whatever, but is there a community/tournament sentiment around things like taking a looted demolisher and calling it a boomdakka snazzwagon?
I have one of those, a rhino with a stompa cannon, and some boyz riding landspeeders and necron destroyers that used to be skorcha buggies.
Also RIP Warboss on a boarding plank, long live wrecking ball tank shocks.
Dumb question if I may: I just printed out a Battlescribe list for my first game of 10th, and my koptas don't have any kind of rokkits listed. Is this a Battlescribe omission, or did they get FAQ'd/Errata'd/Whatever'd?
Gulgog TufToof wrote: Dumb question if I may: I just printed out a Battlescribe list for my first game of 10th, and my koptas don't have any kind of rokkits listed. Is this a Battlescribe omission, or did they get FAQ'd/Errata'd/Whatever'd?
Ork battlescribe has always have been riddled with errors for units which aren't used as often. Short answer: Koptas still have twin-linked rokkits.
I also like this page for quickly scrolling for datasheets, you can integrate both the index cards and wahapedia as data sources: https://game-datacards.eu
Just seen that we've hit a 56% win rate. Possibilities for (minor) nerfs on the horizon?
If they nerf anything, I'd imagine it would be some of the Snagga range (Squigosaur/Mozrog, Hogs, Snagga Boys) Flash Gitz or Nobz. Possibly stormboys and warbikes if they wanted to hit our point scoring units instead of the stuff that hits hard.
DakkaHammer wrote: What are people doing with looted wagons and other conversions? I know games with friends are whatever, but is there a community/tournament sentiment around things like taking a looted demolisher and calling it a boomdakka snazzwagon?
I have one of those, a rhino with a stompa cannon, and some boyz riding landspeeders and necron destroyers that used to be skorcha buggies.
I can't advise you on tactics much; but I do have an opinion (and it's just an opinion) on counts-as.
We in a wild west for wysiwyg right now; there's that many datacards, and everyone gets all the free wargear, that it's kind of inevitable that you can't field the exact models that match your list you want. A good example is guard, who get a HK on every vehicle. I've seen players just use a token that they remove once it's shot. I think as long as you make it clear to your opponent, and it's a reasonable size, and kinda looks like what it's meant to do, it's gonna be fine 90% of the time (until you come up against that gu - but then you're gonna have a bad game anyway). For tournaments, the advice is always check with the TO. Now I don't entirely agree with this, as TO's have to err on the side of caution and many would rather have zero chances of an incident than let someone play a counts-as model, so sometimes I won't ask, and just bring what I need to bring, and it's always been fine so far (but I play on the lower tables usually!). Your mileage may vary. Nice looting!
DakkaHammer wrote: What are people doing with looted wagons and other conversions? I know games with friends are whatever, but is there a community/tournament sentiment around things like taking a looted demolisher and calling it a boomdakka snazzwagon?
I have one of those, a rhino with a stompa cannon, and some boyz riding landspeeders and necron destroyers that used to be skorcha buggies.
I would try to do a best effort match the looted wagons with the profiles of the buggies' main guns.
For a demolisher, a Boomdakka Snazzwagon feels wrong, because it's a high value dakka kind of buggy, for a demolisher I would just go with the scrapjet as it's the "big explosions at short range" buggy.
The rhino could either be a scrapjet as well, or a squigbuggy if you feel like it should be able to fire indirectly.
The landspeeders and necron destroyers could either be koptas or squighounds.
DakkaHammer wrote: What are people doing with looted wagons and other conversions? I know games with friends are whatever, but is there a community/tournament sentiment around things like taking a looted demolisher and calling it a boomdakka snazzwagon?
I have one of those, a rhino with a stompa cannon, and some boyz riding landspeeders and necron destroyers that used to be skorcha buggies.
I can't advise you on tactics much; but I do have an opinion (and it's just an opinion) on counts-as.
We in a wild west for wysiwyg right now; there's that many datacards, and everyone gets all the free wargear, that it's kind of inevitable that you can't field the exact models that match your list you want. A good example is guard, who get a HK on every vehicle.
Oh you can definitely field exact WYSIWYG options. You just have to invest the time/effort.
Afrodactyl wrote: Just seen that we've hit a 56% win rate. Possibilities for (minor) nerfs on the horizon?
If they nerf anything, I'd imagine it would be some of the Snagga range (Squigosaur/Mozrog, Hogs, Snagga Boys) Flash Gitz or Nobz. Possibly stormboys and warbikes if they wanted to hit our point scoring units instead of the stuff that hits hard.
I feel like they'll reverse some of the weirder points drop we received last time around (grots going back to their original points, same with badrukk), while smacking down on the ones you mentioned. Knowing GW though, they'll jack up things that didn't really have an impact like Mek Gunz again. Just hoping they don't hit trukks with another price increase. That or at least address some of the overpriced stuff we have at the moment if they're going to jack up the cost for our harder hitting units.
Afrodactyl wrote: Just seen that we've hit a 56% win rate. Possibilities for (minor) nerfs on the horizon?
If they nerf anything, I'd imagine it would be some of the Snagga range (Squigosaur/Mozrog, Hogs, Snagga Boys) Flash Gitz or Nobz. Possibly stormboys and warbikes if they wanted to hit our point scoring units instead of the stuff that hits hard.
I feel like they'll reverse some of the weirder points drop we received last time around (grots going back to their original points, same with badrukk), while smacking down on the ones you mentioned. Knowing GW though, they'll jack up things that didn't really have an impact like Mek Gunz again. Just hoping they don't hit trukks with another price increase. That or at least address some of the overpriced stuff we have at the moment if they're going to jack up the cost for our harder hitting units.
This is where Nobz get a points drop and Mek guns go to 65 points
Afrodactyl wrote: Just seen that we've hit a 56% win rate. Possibilities for (minor) nerfs on the horizon?
If they nerf anything, I'd imagine it would be some of the Snagga range (Squigosaur/Mozrog, Hogs, Snagga Boys) Flash Gitz or Nobz. Possibly stormboys and warbikes if they wanted to hit our point scoring units instead of the stuff that hits hard.
I feel like they'll reverse some of the weirder points drop we received last time around (grots going back to their original points, same with badrukk), while smacking down on the ones you mentioned. Knowing GW though, they'll jack up things that didn't really have an impact like Mek Gunz again. Just hoping they don't hit trukks with another price increase. That or at least address some of the overpriced stuff we have at the moment if they're going to jack up the cost for our harder hitting units.
This is where Nobz get a points drop and Mek guns go to 65 points
We can only hope lol. GW can be really out of touch sometimes.
Well boyz, sorry i've been off for so long, I know several of you will be sad to hear I am back
However I have been very active gaming as opposed to posting, at least 1 game a week, sometimes 2-4.
I have tried literally every unit in my army except for my Flashgitz because I only have 5 and for some reason everyone is sold out :(
So quick breakdown of my findings so far, and keep in mind this is my own personal opinion based exclusively on my own personal games so please take it with a HUGE grain of salt.
HQs:
Snikrot: too expensive for what little he does. You pay 20pts more for a crappier warboss who doesn't even buff the unit except with cover and a once a game teleport.
Zagstruk: Same as Snikrot except he does give +1 to hit but no teleport, re-roll charge is nice but its only on 1 turn and its only for when hes 9" away from the opponent.
Ghaz: too expensive, too limited and too weak. He is too squishy to go by himself and too slow not to ride in a transport, add in the stupid size limitation you are left with no alternative except to run him alone or have him footslog up the board where he won't get into combat until turn 2-3 at best and when he does his bodyguard will be dead.
Badrukk/Mad Dok/Mozrog/Zogrod: No opinion, haven't played with them this edition.
Beastboss: I still don't understand him. He got nerfed, he is 33% more expensive than a regular warboss and his only benefit is that he gets devastating wounds if he charges. In my opinion he isn't worth it.
Beastboss on Squig: !!!!! does work. I always give him the killa Klaw for that "Btw, everything he has is devastating and against vehicles monsters I devastate on 4s Favorite part about him though is the sheer durability of the beast. T10, 3+ save with a 5+ and a 4+ FNP
Big Mek Mega armor: Love him, possibly a bit too expensive but his buffs are his real power. healing a model and resurrecting a dead meganob is just insanely powerful.
Big Mek/ KFF: Haven't run one.
Big Mek w/ SAG: Love it for its hilarity but in terms of actual dmg output....mediocre at best. His buff doesn't work on lootas and boyz don't need it and Mek Gunz don't need it 1/2 the time. Average of 4 shots a turn isn't enough to justify 75pts especially at BS5 (Heavy) and only S9 in an edition where his prime targets are all S10+
Wartrike: Don't own one, won't own one, i think its ugly.
Mek: Fun little guys to buff a shooting unit. I routinely plop them in a unit of Mek gunz to make one of them better and to heal the occasional dmg. bit to pricey for the little that he does. It is fun to have a hidden killsaw in a mek gun unit though.
Nob on smasha squig: Never leave home without one....or 3. That +1 to hit is wicked important for squighog boyz and his own dmg isn't too shabby.
Nob W/Banner: honestly, its crap. You are paying 70pts for giving 1 unit an extra nob model and to give it 1 extra turn of WAAAGH. Drop it 20pts or more and it might be a viable strat except that the 2 units it can attach to are currently terrible (in my opinion).
Painboss: Not worth it but its fun. 60pts to increase a snagga boyz FNP from a 6+ to a 5+, he is a decent CC model but if I had to pick I'd rather not take snagga boyz.
painboy: ironically somehow more expensive than the boss, Drop him 20pts or more and maybe, but again the problem is the units he can lead are all bad in my opinion.
warboss: Lovem, anytime I do bring boyz I always bring a warboss for them. +1 to hit and getting that many attacks with a PK on the waaagh turn is just funny. If boyz were better he would be a staple in my lists.
Warboss in Mega Armor: Sadly I don't like him. I'd rather bring a Big mek than him to lead Meganobz He is way better in CC and his buff does help the meganobz get more dmg in but i use meganobz as hard to shift bricks rather than melee beat sticks so he doesn't mesh with that plan as well.
Warboss on Bike: He is great for what he does, and that is getting a unit of warbikes across the table FAST. But that is about it. In my opinion bikes are only good as objective grabbers and action monkeys right now so buffing them doesn't make sense.
Weirdboy: Maybe if boys were better they would be better? Da Jump hasn't been a big thing for me this edition since its so easy to get across the table right now and objectives are easy to get as well. So showing up 9" away from a unit and no re-roll charge...no thanks.
Wurrboy: worse than the weirdboy. tell me a Marine player designed him without telling me a marine player designed him. "he gets more attacks with his ranged weapon for every 5 models in the unit!" cool...he hits on 5s and it becomes hazardous. At MAX buff its D6+8 shots, averages 11.5 shots for 4ish hits. realistically its D6+2 99% of the time and that works out to less than 2 hits a turn. And again, has to lead snagga boyz which aren't that good right now.
Troops:
Snagga boyz: 105pts for a unit that is basically Boyz +1. There unit ability literally defeats the purpose of attaching a beastboss to them. Easiest fix would be to give them monster/vehicle hunter 5+ and to drop them 15pts
Boyz: too expensive and too hard to use. 1 ability is you get to kill yourself to re-roll a battleshock test and the other is bring a giant target for the enemy and your reward is you get to make it an even juicier target for blast weapons by adding in 120+pts of characters. The days of blobs of boyz is over, so make them dirt cheap for what little they can do and make their ability matter. drop them 15pts as well and give them an ability like +1 attack while on an objective.
Infantry:
Burnaboyz: honestly they aren't terrible, but they just don't do much for their price of 12ppm. If they were closer to 8-9pts they might do better.
Flashgitz: as mentioned, haven't brought them out.
Grotz: cheap action monkeys and easy way to make back some CP. I'd recommend bringing 1-3 units
Kommandos: I love my kommandos so much, I want them to be good so badly...but they aren't :( 135pts for basically boyz that get to scout and get stealth isn't worth it. The extra weapons you can hide in there is nice but realistically they die as soon as they get targeted. Their big thing in 9th was being able to rip apart units that were in cover, now they aren't any better in CC then regular boyz except for the one extra CC weapon they get.
Lootas: they are what they are, small unit of auto-cannon equivalents. They don't do enough dmg, they don't get enough shots and they aren't durable. Make them BS5 Heavy and they might be worth 50pts or bump them up to 3+ shots and we will see.
Meganobz: I bring a brick or two of them fairly often to stick a megamek in there just to make them ridiculously durable. 5+ invuln all game AND resurrecting a big mek each turn is just nutz.
Stormboyz: Way too expensive...like WAY Too expensive. Boyz are too expensive at 8.5ppm, these muppets are 13ppm. DSing action monkeys and not much else, but again, too expensive for what they do in my opinion.
Tankbustas: Hey did I say Stormboyz were too expensive? What I meant to say was WTF are these guys doing to be priced at 22ppm. They got nerfed by being forced to take only 5 models, they got nerfed by being forced to take what was in the stupid kit and then they got nerfed by being 22ppm. I've taken them twice and neither time did they do anything. Realistically you can cut that price by 40pts and it might still be too much. For comparison, a unit of 3 eradicators is 15pts cheaper. Those eradicators have more wounds, more toughness, better saves and full re-roll hit/wound/dmg on their weapons when targeting vehicles/monsters.
Mounted:
Nobz on Warbike: warbikes but more expensive and a much better target to hit. The only thing they are better at than regular warbikers is CC and you don't want either one in CC so...take warbikes.
Squighogboyz: Lovem. I take 3 maxed squads as often as possible. Slap a nob in their and watch them eat wounds like they are tanks and then get stuck in and do some SERIOUS dmg. Lance on the charge is nice, especially against pesky infantry that they struggle a bit against.
Warbikes: Action monkeys, relatively cheap (too expensive) they suck at shooting and they suck in CC. run them around the board and score objectives and secondaries, never expect them to earn their points back in CC unless your opponent throws a glass unit at them.
Monsters:
Sorry I don't own either :(
Vehicles:
Battlewagon: Crap tier. 185pts for a transport with lots of useless guns and an ok(ish) CC statline. Give it BS4 base and we can talk, slash 50pts off it and it would be acceptable.
Big Trakk: Don't own one :(
Blitzbommer: Not worth it honestly. Its just a dakkajet with less shooting and a bombing ability which realistically will be used once maybe twice if you are lucky which means you have a 50% chance to get D6 mortals on a single unit.
Snazzwagon: Don't own one
Burnabommer: same as blitza, slightly better and i emphasize SLIGHTLY.
Dakkajet: Best of the planes but its just not that killy and its price is too high.
Deffdread: Not terrible, not great, needs to drop about 20pts.
Deffkoptas: love them but they are too expensive, losing HALF their shots was a huge deal. A bit of love dmg wise and I think they would be worth it. Give them back 2D3 rokkitz and even give them a 10-20pt price bump and they might be competitive.
Gorkanaut: don't own one :(
Grot tanks/mega: Dont own them besides 1 and its for show
Hunta Rig: Don't own one
Kill Rig: too expensive, too weak with its dmg output. All its guns are basically useless except the wurrtower. And in CC it bounces off everything because AP-1 isn't good enough.
Killtank: Don't own one.
Killakanz: I ran a kanwall a few weeks back. It did surprisingly well...with that said, all of its ranged weapons are useless except the rokkit launcher and arguably the skorcha. They do draw a lot of fire but 5 wounds helps. If they went down 20-30pts they would be competitive.
KBB: Don't own one.
Mega dread: Don't own one.
Scrapjets: :( I have 3 but they are terrible right now. I'd rather take deffkoptas over this thing right now.
Mek Gunz: Bread and butter baby. Ive been bringing bubblechukkas every week for a month, they are hilarious and they actually can do some dmg. I went one week where they overwatched and killed 2 enemy characters and an enemy unit, in the regular shooting phase they downed a monster and were the stars of the game for me. I had another week where they literally bounced off everything and were wiped out. Swingy as hell but I love them!
Meka-dread: don't own one.
Morkanaut: Not worth the price. hes heavily over priced. He requires a mek nearby to have a chance of hitting anything so realistically hes closer to 400pts than 300pts. Just not worth the investment.
Squigbuggy: Don't like the model don't own any.
Dragsta: Don't own one.
Stompa: Don't own one.
Wazbom: Don't own one.
Dedicated Transports:
Trukkz: Worth it every time. You can literally take 3 for less than the cost of a battlewagon and oh no you don't get as much pathetic shooting that never does anything.
Biggest note: I'm loving my squig heavy lists. I was able to kill Lion El'Johnson with bomb squigs one week and rammed a Boss on Squig as well as a squig riders unit straight into a Knight titan in another game where they one shot the knight. They are honestly carrying my lists at the moment.
PaddyMick wrote:I can't advise you on tactics much; but I do have an opinion (and it's just an opinion) on counts-as.
We in a wild west for wysiwyg right now; there's that many datacards, and everyone gets all the free wargear, that it's kind of inevitable that you can't field the exact models that match your list you want. A good example is guard, who get a HK on every vehicle. I've seen players just use a token that they remove once it's shot. I think as long as you make it clear to your opponent, and it's a reasonable size, and kinda looks like what it's meant to do, it's gonna be fine 90% of the time (until you come up against that gu - but then you're gonna have a bad game anyway). For tournaments, the advice is always check with the TO. Now I don't entirely agree with this, as TO's have to err on the side of caution and many would rather have zero chances of an incident than let someone play a counts-as model, so sometimes I won't ask, and just bring what I need to bring, and it's always been fine so far (but I play on the lower tables usually!). Your mileage may vary. Nice looting!
Fair enough! I've been scratching my head a bit about how to fit all the wargear onto my open-topped battlewagon since the turret it came with has been looted by someone else Good to hear that "do your best and communicate" is a common approach.
Jidmah wrote:I would try to do a best effort match the looted wagons with the profiles of the buggies' main guns.
For a demolisher, a Boomdakka Snazzwagon feels wrong, because it's a high value dakka kind of buggy, for a demolisher I would just go with the scrapjet as it's the "big explosions at short range" buggy.
The rhino could either be a scrapjet as well, or a squigbuggy if you feel like it should be able to fire indirectly.
The landspeeders and necron destroyers could either be koptas or squighounds.
Hmm, I hadn't paid too much attention to the scrapjet sheet but that would make sense. I'll admit I read "boom" and stopped thinking, but I like the idea of extra damage on charges.
Sounds like a similar sentiment so definitely comforting, and thanks for the ideas!
I've just had a coffee and I still lurk here every now and then, this will be fun to reply to, I'm just going to place my replies in bold inside the quote.
SemperMortis wrote: Well boyz, sorry i've been off for so long, I know several of you will be sad to hear I am back
However I have been very active gaming as opposed to posting, at least 1 game a week, sometimes 2-4.
I have tried literally every unit in my army except for my Flashgitz because I only have 5 and for some reason everyone is sold out :(
So quick breakdown of my findings so far, and keep in mind this is my own personal opinion based exclusively on my own personal games so please take it with a HUGE grain of salt.
HQs:
Snikrot: too expensive for what little he does. You pay 20pts more for a crappier warboss who doesn't even buff the unit except with cover and a once a game teleport.
I think Snikrot has room as an secondary backup, he is a bit expensive for this, but a once per game solo teleport is cute. Not excited about him either.
Zagstruk: Same as Snikrot except he does give +1 to hit but no teleport, re-roll charge is nice but its only on 1 turn and its only for when hes 9" away from the opponent.
You can get this to a 7" charge with our stratagem of +2adv and charge, you can target units in reserves. Max stormboy + zagstruk is expensive, but 7" rerollable is good.
Ghaz: too expensive, too limited and too weak. He is too squishy to go by himself and too slow not to ride in a transport, add in the stupid size limitation you are left with no alternative except to run him alone or have him footslog up the board where he won't get into combat until turn 2-3 at best and when he does his bodyguard will be dead.
Ghaz answers questions that this army has no answers for. You can not handle 2+ AoC without ghaz, and I think he has room as a counter charge piece with 2 MANz with killsaws. -3ap is hard to find and I would pay the price for this guy if my list needed it (which I think can be often).
Badrukk/Mad Dok/Mozrog/Zogrod: No opinion, haven't played with them this edition.
Badrukk and Mozrog are obviously insane, Zogrod I think has a lot of play with scout move and super speed grots for objective play.
Beastboss: I still don't understand him. He got nerfed, he is 33% more expensive than a regular warboss and his only benefit is that he gets devastating wounds if he charges. In my opinion he isn't worth it.
With snaggas reroll hits on mon/veh, and 5+ exploding strat, you have a boss that is going to reroll all hits to fish for explodes. You're looking at sometimes up to 10 hits! then dev wounds that on your waagh turn, and this little idiot just did 10 dev wounds to knight. We're excited about that, and we need that in our lists, we suffer against high T, and 2+ sv
Beastboss on Squig: !!!!! does work. I always give him the killa Klaw for that "Btw, everything he has is devastating and against vehicles monsters I devastate on 4s Favorite part about him though is the sheer durability of the beast. T10, 3+ save with a 5+ and a 4+ FNP
Big Mek Mega armor: Love him, possibly a bit too expensive but his buffs are his real power. healing a model and resurrecting a dead meganob is just insanely powerful.
Big Mek/ KFF: Haven't run one.
Big Mek w/ SAG: Love it for its hilarity but in terms of actual dmg output....mediocre at best. His buff doesn't work on lootas and boyz don't need it and Mek Gunz don't need it 1/2 the time. Average of 4 shots a turn isn't enough to justify 75pts especially at BS5 (Heavy) and only S9 in an edition where his prime targets are all S10+
I low-key love these guys, and think 3 KMK and a SAG was money for a little while, but they would have to go in strat reserve.
Wartrike: Don't own one, won't own one, i think its ugly.
Very cheap for what he does, I think he's a good candidate for super-cybork body and dominate an objective since his base size is so big.
Mek: Fun little guys to buff a shooting unit. I routinely plop them in a unit of Mek gunz to make one of them better and to heal the occasional dmg. bit to pricey for the little that he does. It is fun to have a hidden killsaw in a mek gun unit though.
I think this lone operative dude does something our army can not do otherwise. Rukkatrukk behind the wall, this guy in front standing on an objective. That's pretty sexy and I would pay 40ish points for that.
Nob on smasha squig: Never leave home without one....or 3. That +1 to hit is wicked important for squighog boyz and his own dmg isn't too shabby.
Nob W/Banner: honestly, its crap. You are paying 70pts for giving 1 unit an extra nob model and to give it 1 extra turn of WAAAGH. Drop it 20pts or more and it might be a viable strat except that the 2 units it can attach to are currently terrible (in my opinion).
Don't dismiss this too fast, I think 5++ and adv+charge out of waagh is really good, but I can't find a home for that.
Painboss: Not worth it but its fun. 60pts to increase a snagga boyz FNP from a 6+ to a 5+, he is a decent CC model but if I had to pick I'd rather not take snagga boyz.
painboy: ironically somehow more expensive than the boss, Drop him 20pts or more and maybe, but again the problem is the units he can lead are all bad in my opinion.
warboss: Lovem, anytime I do bring boyz I always bring a warboss for them. +1 to hit and getting that many attacks with a PK on the waaagh turn is just funny. If boyz were better he would be a staple in my lists.
Warboss in Mega Armor: Sadly I don't like him. I'd rather bring a Big mek than him to lead Meganobz He is way better in CC and his buff does help the meganobz get more dmg in but i use meganobz as hard to shift bricks rather than melee beat sticks so he doesn't mesh with that plan as well.
Warboss on Bike: He is great for what he does, and that is getting a unit of warbikes across the table FAST. But that is about it. In my opinion bikes are only good as objective grabbers and action monkeys right now so buffing them doesn't make sense.
Weirdboy: Maybe if boys were better they would be better? Da Jump hasn't been a big thing for me this edition since its so easy to get across the table right now and objectives are easy to get as well. So showing up 9" away from a unit and no re-roll charge...no thanks.
You bring these guys solo, 50ish points for a dude that teleports every turn and gets you scoring.
Wurrboy: worse than the weirdboy. tell me a Marine player designed him without telling me a marine player designed him. "he gets more attacks with his ranged weapon for every 5 models in the unit!" cool...he hits on 5s and it becomes hazardous. At MAX buff its D6+8 shots, averages 11.5 shots for 4ish hits. realistically its D6+2 99% of the time and that works out to less than 2 hits a turn. And again, has to lead snagga boyz which aren't that good right now.
Troops:
Snagga boyz: 105pts for a unit that is basically Boyz +1. There unit ability literally defeats the purpose of attaching a beastboss to them. Easiest fix would be to give them monster/vehicle hunter 5+ and to drop them 15pts
dont' forget the rerolls man, and the +1 str is really good in the meta atm, lots of T5 running around
Boyz: too expensive and too hard to use. 1 ability is you get to kill yourself to re-roll a battleshock test and the other is bring a giant target for the enemy and your reward is you get to make it an even juicier target for blast weapons by adding in 120+pts of characters. The days of blobs of boyz is over, so make them dirt cheap for what little they can do and make their ability matter. drop them 15pts as well and give them an ability like +1 attack while on an objective.
Boys are probably one of the best units in the codex. 8ppm for 2OC is what you're paying for. That's a great price, and in MSU form it's very playable, but yeah it's not damage.
Infantry:
Burnaboyz: honestly they aren't terrible, but they just don't do much for their price of 12ppm. If they were closer to 8-9pts they might do better.
I agree, these guys have room to be experimented with at this price still. I think these guys are sleepers
Flashgitz: as mentioned, haven't brought them out.
Once you start playing with them you won't stop, they solve so many problems and they are so versatile. Highly recommend
Grotz: cheap action monkeys and easy way to make back some CP. I'd recommend bringing 1-3 units
100%
Kommandos: I love my kommandos so much, I want them to be good so badly...but they aren't :( 135pts for basically boyz that get to scout and get stealth isn't worth it. The extra weapons you can hide in there is nice but realistically they die as soon as they get targeted. Their big thing in 9th was being able to rip apart units that were in cover, now they aren't any better in CC then regular boyz except for the one extra CC weapon they get.
Agreed again. I think the no overwatch rule is REALLY unique but I wouldnt pay this price either.
Lootas: they are what they are, small unit of auto-cannon equivalents. They don't do enough dmg, they don't get enough shots and they aren't durable. Make them BS5 Heavy and they might be worth 50pts or bump them up to 3+ shots and we will see.
These guys are also sleepers imo, this price is just too cheap to not consider, they're basically a boy with almost a free gun?
Meganobz: I bring a brick or two of them fairly often to stick a megamek in there just to make them ridiculously durable. 5+ invuln all game AND resurrecting a big mek each turn is just nutz.
I'm very surprised you're bringing these guys and not considering Ghaz, but perhaps you have enough -3ap with these guys alone. The big Mek is lovely, I just find that once you start to try to deliver these guys (BW's or Trukks) they start to add up in price too much.
Stormboyz: Way too expensive...like WAY Too expensive. Boyz are too expensive at 8.5ppm, these muppets are 13ppm. DSing action monkeys and not much else, but again, too expensive for what they do in my opinion.
65 point secondary scorers, I don't start playing the game with less than 2 of these units in my lists.
Tankbustas: Hey did I say Stormboyz were too expensive? What I meant to say was WTF are these guys doing to be priced at 22ppm. They got nerfed by being forced to take only 5 models, they got nerfed by being forced to take what was in the stupid kit and then they got nerfed by being 22ppm. I've taken them twice and neither time did they do anything. Realistically you can cut that price by 40pts and it might still be too much. For comparison, a unit of 3 eradicators is 15pts cheaper. Those eradicators have more wounds, more toughness, better saves and full re-roll hit/wound/dmg on their weapons when targeting vehicles/monsters.
Everyone agrees with this I think, I'm not even sure I would take them at half price haha)
Mounted:
Nobz on Warbike: warbikes but more expensive and a much better target to hit. The only thing they are better at than regular warbikers is CC and you don't want either one in CC so...take warbikes.
I've taken these guys before, their rule is really sneaky. You can hurt things with multi-charges here. Two things charge 1 screen, you kill the screen with your other unit, then these guys touch something that is within 10". That's kinda cool!
Squighogboyz: Lovem. I take 3 maxed squads as often as possible. Slap a nob in their and watch them eat wounds like they are tanks and then get stuck in and do some SERIOUS dmg. Lance on the charge is nice, especially against pesky infantry that they struggle a bit against.
These guys are the low-hanging fruit of the army. Quite possibly the best thing in the codex, any amount of these guys is correct. You could play 18 and I wouldnt be mad
Warbikes: Action monkeys, relatively cheap (too expensive) they suck at shooting and they suck in CC. run them around the board and score objectives and secondaries, never expect them to earn their points back in CC unless your opponent throws a glass unit at them.
Agreed
Monsters:
Sorry I don't own either :(
Vehicles:
Battlewagon: Crap tier. 185pts for a transport with lots of useless guns and an ok(ish) CC statline. Give it BS4 base and we can talk, slash 50pts off it and it would be acceptable.
Hard disagree. Battlewagon has AoC. In cover you have a unit that shrugs AP2, and AP4 is still a 5+ sv on this model with cover. Like you basically have an invuln. And the firing deck is great, flash gits dont mind this. But really the durability is amazing. And it has a deff roller, so you're happy to deliver something with this and then run around charging things.
Big Trakk: Don't own one :(
They are secondary trukks, but now too expensive
Blitzbommer: Not worth it honestly. Its just a dakkajet with less shooting and a bombing ability which realistically will be used once maybe twice if you are lucky which means you have a 50% chance to get D6 mortals on a single unit.
Snazzwagon: Don't own one
Burnabommer: same as blitza, slightly better and i emphasize SLIGHTLY.
Dakkajet: Best of the planes but its just not that killy and its price is too high.
Deffdread: Not terrible, not great, needs to drop about 20pts.
Deffkoptas: love them but they are too expensive, losing HALF their shots was a huge deal. A bit of love dmg wise and I think they would be worth it. Give them back 2D3 rokkitz and even give them a 10-20pt price bump and they might be competitive.
Gorkanaut: don't own one :(
kinda may sorta actually not bad? I think he could rapid ingress and cause a bad time in some games.
Grot tanks/mega: Dont own them besides 1 and its for show
Hunta Rig: Don't own one
This thing is cheap enough to seriously consider, it will die to most armies, so you'd want to bring a few of them, but you can afford it.
Kill Rig: too expensive, too weak with its dmg output. All its guns are basically useless except the wurrtower. And in CC it bounces off everything because AP-1 isn't good enough.
Killtank: Don't own one.
Take a good look at it, it's kind of fire
Killakanz: I ran a kanwall a few weeks back. It did surprisingly well...with that said, all of its ranged weapons are useless except the rokkit launcher and arguably the skorcha. They do draw a lot of fire but 5 wounds helps. If they went down 20-30pts they would be competitive.
KBB: Don't own one.
Mega dread: Don't own one.
Scrapjets: :( I have 3 but they are terrible right now. I'd rather take deffkoptas over this thing right now.
I agree, I've tried to force these guys and just often felt underwhelmed. I do like Rukka Trukks in certain matchups though.
Mek Gunz: Bread and butter baby. Ive been bringing bubblechukkas every week for a month, they are hilarious and they actually can do some dmg. I went one week where they overwatched and killed 2 enemy characters and an enemy unit, in the regular shooting phase they downed a monster and were the stars of the game for me. I had another week where they literally bounced off everything and were wiped out. Swingy as hell but I love them!
Meka-dread: don't own one.
Morkanaut: Not worth the price. hes heavily over priced. He requires a mek nearby to have a chance of hitting anything so realistically hes closer to 400pts than 300pts. Just not worth the investment.
Squigbuggy: Don't like the model don't own any.
Bringing 2 will change matchups. This is something that you cant do with any other unit. We don't really need the help vs eldar, but it is something that fundamentally changes deployment for your opponent when you bring these idiots. However, they will often do nothing in shooting. You're actually aiming to hurt things with their squig mines more than anything, so you have to use them midboard during turn 3-4-5. I think these guys are quite excellent if your list is built around needing their pressure (e.g. you want them to come to you, instead of running across the board)
Dragsta: Don't own one.
teleports every turn! SECONDARIES yay! Except the weirdboy does this job better for cheaper (this guy is more reliable though)
Stompa: Don't own one.
Wazbom: Don't own one.
Dedicated Transports:
Trukkz: Worth it every time. You can literally take 3 for less than the cost of a battlewagon and oh no you don't get as much pathetic shooting that never does anything.
i'm shocked you love trukks and not boyz, that's all I'm saying
Biggest note: I'm loving my squig heavy lists. I was able to kill Lion El'Johnson with bomb squigs one week and rammed a Boss on Squig as well as a squig riders unit straight into a Knight titan in another game where they one shot the knight. They are honestly carrying my lists at the moment.
Not sure why people praise trukks THAT much. Their melee is hot garbage unless that wrecking ball gets uber lucky and they are vulnerable to medium weapons so they die pretty easy. Their only strength is they allow boyz/nobz a cheap wheel to the midfield and Tankshock. That makes them good, but not spam them good since you cant use the strat on multiples.
The wagon's melee is nothing to scoff at. The guns may suck but the rolla still hurts like crazy. The main reason i used wagons in the past is still a thing today: once they dump off their load, theyre still a threat.
Semper, your ranking is great. You lack 1/3 of the units, but the rest is great. Thanks!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: Not sure why people praise trukks THAT much. Their melee is hot garbage unless that wrecking ball gets uber lucky and they are vulnerable to medium weapons so they die pretty easy.
Their only strength is they allow boyz/nobz a cheap wheel to the midfield and Tankshock. That makes them good, but not spam them good since you cant use the strat on multiples.
The wagon's melee is nothing to scoff at. The guns may suck but the rolla still hurts like crazy. The main reason i used wagons in the past is still a thing today: once they dump off their load, theyre still a threat.
Cheap first laysr of defence. Cheap transport and cheap roadblock. That is “all”
Yeah, a layer of defense that then goes on holding objectives and perform actions. You make your army extremely hard to kill and you get an extremely cheap and durable unit on top of it. If you ever need them to do damage, their tank shock is pretty good.
If ork win rates stay as they are, I'm fairly sure trukks will be the targeted of a slight nerf.
By the way, battlewagons work very similar in my experience. They might not be as efficient as trukks, but most armies struggle to even take down one without overextending into an army that will call the Waaagh! next turn. Even if the wagon dies, there usually is not enough firepower left to clear out the passengers.
In my case, it also helps that everyone and their dog tries to down the flash gitz wagon first, so I can absolutely bait my opponents into terrible decisions. Take with grain of salt though as my usual opponents are not anywhere near competitive levels (even if some think so ), and I tend to play narrative games against the actual great players.
I am trying a fun list next week. Lots of lootaz in battlewagons and meks to support them.
It's just a meme to my past lists in third edition, but I am really curious how much damage a fully shooting wagon with killkoannon etc loaded with lootaz and SAGs can do. I am not expecting much though
The list above seems about right. I would only add, that grot tanks are absolutely awesome. 150points for 5 rockits on a durable platform with a useful 'i am outta here' ability is nothing to scoff at
What's the current verdict on mozdrag Vs boss with hwkc?
Mozdrag is more durable due to the 4++ but what about hitting power? The additional dmg Vs vehicles got me often the kill. Especially
now since Dev wounds got somewhat nerfed Vs meq and geq
EDIT:
@trukks... The thing is no-one wants to dedicate precious firepower into empty trukks with a couple of wounds left. Once U got stuck in, the truck' s can roam free to do objectives and harass enemy troops. And like others said... It's tankshock hits reaaaally hard due to S10 of the wrecking ball
moz is mostly a bullet sponge with some bite. the other is the true power house damage wise.
Take your pick, but i enjoy the damage one.
Also not sure their increasing trucks pts, it begs the question if they did why we have a worst profile yet costing as much as a rhino.
Also we are one the armies that received the least amount of changes. Chances are that when they start peddling back some of the nerfs our win rate will decrease again.
It's a case of, we are better because everyone got worst.
Had a 5 game GT, though only with 20 people attending. I ended up with a 6th place out of the 20, losing 2 matches. 1 match i could have won, but it snowballed out of control due to incidents, and the other was simply a close game. There was also another Ork player who was.. last. His list werent even that bad so im not sure what he was doing. Ouch.
List below:
Spoiler:
++ Army Roster (Xenos - Orks) [2,000pts] ++
+ Configuration +
Battle Size: 2. Strike Force (2000 Point limit)
Detachment: Waaagh! Tribe
+ Epic Hero +
Ghazghkull Thraka [235pts]: Warlord
+ Character +
Nob on Smasha Squig [80pts]: Headwoppa’s Killchoppa
Warboss [80pts]: Attack squig, Kunnin’ But Brutal, Power klaw
Over all, im pleased with the list. I do sense the lack of fast units that can grab an objective early, in case i need to deploy a teleport homer, or take a tempted target. Something like that. But i build the entire list around the idea, of smashing up my enemy. And it did that really really well. Absolute Krumping time.
While ghaz is slow, Ere we go! really helped him out a lot, and he krumped a good deal of enemies. The Mega Nobz (twin killsaws) with Warboss in mega armor, also surprisingly did a lot, however, the Hunta rig kinda suffered. I only picked it because i wanted another big piece of threat, that could be a transport. I wanted to see if Hunta rigs were really that bad, and it kinda.. is. The things I wanted to attack and killed, barely just died, if it even did. I wanted to see what it did and test it out, and it just werent really that great.
Although it helps a lot that i got turn 1 in 4 games out of 5. But i think even with turn 2, most of the games would be winnable as well, as we had pretty dense terrain.
Anyway, hot takes on games:
game 1 vs necrons = win Bunch of necron dudes and C'tan and some lych guards etc. The Lych guards were krumped by a mixture of Ghaz and his mega nobz + Squighog boys. Hunta rig was killed by C'tan when i charged him. Sigh.
Won with 100 points.
Game 2 vs Chaos = lost Faced off against one of the danish national team players, who is a good sport. even though i lost, i could have won the game. It really came down to one small issue that really snowballed my game out of propotions, to my opponents favor. Ghaz was meant to do a 4 inch charge in to obliterators, which he failed. Losing me the 1 CP (had to reroll my charge) i needed to give my Nobz with powerklaws +5 critical hits for their sustained hits +5 and +5 lethal hits. This meant i now didnt have enough damage output to chew through the massive accursed cultist mob, which in turn got my Nobz killed. Now his accursed cultists were alive and kept regenerating, and my Nobz were dead. After the accursed cultists were dead, i should have consolidated on to my enemys Rhino that had 10 legionnaires, to surround it with Nobz and Ghaz, but that now didnt happen. Which would have resulted in him taking emergency disembark.
So all in all, ghaz losing that charge, really snowballed the game, the wrong way. It was easy to see where the game was lost. But if he had done it, i would definitely have won the game.
Oh and the hunta rig was killed by the obliterators turn 1 that shot without line of sight. Yay for the lack of invulnerable saves on Hunta rigs.
Game 3: Imperial Knights = win Not much to say. 2 big knights, and some smaller ones. turn 1, drive closer and behind ruins, getting ready to jump out. His turn 1, barely shoot anything. My battle round 2, waaagh called, ran out, killed off a few smaller knights, with Ghaz hiding near the middle objective, ready to krump. He came on to the middle with large knights round 3, Ghaz went out, destroyed it. Big win.
Game 4: Imperial Guard = Win Cadia did, in fact, not stand that day. Lots of big guns, but also a well made WTC stage with dense terrain. I had turn 1, moved up getting ready to jump out. As we ork players do. Round 2, propell the entire army out of transports and kill as many things as possible. This is the game my hunta rig actually survived and killed something. It killed Basilisk in close combat, over 2 turns.
Yay..
Game 5: Iron Hands = Loss Sadly i did not get turn 1 in this game, which meant he moved blocked my squighog boys and Ghaz, and a trukk, with some infiltrator dudes. My hunta rig also died turn 1. I also fethed it up by forgetting to charge my squighogs in to the move blockers, and only declaring some snagga boys which failed to kill the target. Even though it had a character, and i had assassinate, netting me 1 round where i did not score the assassinate point. I was tired, just a feth up really. But i got out, was still semi hidden. But my Nobz went in to the wrong target with too much toughness and didnt kill it, and Ghaz unit was down to only him, so no makari lethal hits buff. over all, a gak bucket of shots from my opponent, some borderlining OP'ness but sure. It ended with an 80-72 score so i was still happy. Nobz, Boys and Mega Nobz in my opponents home objective in his deployment zone always looks good.
Over all im happy with the result, but i think i need to change out the Hunta rig. I was hoping The Rig would perform as another yet tough and hard hitting brick but it doesnt really do that. And by having the Hunta rig i had to forgo +2 movement on my Warboss leading the Nobz. So hunta rig is definitely out.
i swear they said you could this go around, but even looking it up nope i see it in the Rules Commentary that explicitly units embarked cannot do anything unless stated otherwise Realistically you're probably gonna call the BannerWAAGH the turn following normal Waaagh anyway.
So I mentioned my Squig list a few posts ago, and I feel like it's always good to share with the group for better or worse. I've actually kind of gone out of my way to nerf my previous list slightly, with my thought process being future proofing rather than being ultra competitive. My idea being that I have 50 points of wiggle room through some enhancements, so unless the bulk of my list gets a points increase, I should be fine come the next field manual.
It's kind of a fluffy list anyway with a lot of conversions to make things Squiggy that aren't normally, but winning about 40% of the time is still pretty nice. The list is still holding its own despite me taking a few suboptimal choices, and I've basically abandoned the idea of the shooting phase. Unfortunately some of the converted stuff (and the brick of resin that is the Squiggoth) have become kind of non-negotiable in my head because of all the money and effort put in; I haven't the heart to leave them on the shelf
List is in spoilers for anyone that cares to look, anything converted to fit my "squig-related" criteria is marked with a *. If you're curious about them let me know and I'll go into detail.
Spoiler:
Beastboss [100pts]
Beastboss [100pts]
Beastboss on Squigosaur [185pts]: . Headwoppa’s Killchoppa, Thump Gun, Warlord
Jidmah wrote: How is that deff dread working out for you? Is it actually ever getting into combat?
I feel like mine always soaks a ton of shooting and dies turn 1, and I'm not sure if I'm ok with that.
It comes and goes. Generally speaking if I deploy it on the board it dies turn 1, unless my Trukks and Follow Me Hogs unit make some decent charges. Depending on the match up, it dying immediately can be a good thing, but sometimes it sponges a silly amount of firepower and means my hogs and Squigboss get across the board relatively unscathed.
I tend to put it in reserves alongside my Squiggoth full of Nobz and have it come in turn 2 or 3 to cause chaos, where they generally do well.
Wave 1 tends to be Trukks and Follow Me Hogs, wave 2 is the rest of the hogs, the Squigboss and the Deffkoptas. The Squiggoth, Nobz and Dread tend to be either wave 2 or wave 3 if I need something a bit beefy on turn 3.
RedNoak wrote: Single weirdboy for teleporting and doing actions or provide additional OC is actually really good
Can hide better than stormboyz and can jump every turn wherever he wants. Really a underappreciated use case
He's a godsend for the points game, honestly. 100% my preferred take over stormboys, bikers or moar Grots. I only put the Cybork body on it as I had spare points and it fits with my future proofing plan. I probably wouldn't say it's worth it otherwise.
Vineheart01 wrote: i swear they said you could this go around, but even looking it up nope i see it in the Rules Commentary that explicitly units embarked cannot do anything unless stated otherwise
Realistically you're probably gonna call the BannerWAAGH the turn following normal Waaagh anyway.
You might have been confused by reserves who CAN do stuff as long as rule doesn't specify "on the battlefield" which still limits quite a lot but there are abilities here and there which do work for reserve units.
That did change in 10th. Before even in reserve you couldn't do anything.
Quick question chaps; i'd like to double check: can Badrukk's ability be used in Overwatch? Seems it can, since the wording says it's not triggered in the shooting phase.
Flashiest Gitz: While this model is leading a unit, each timea model in that unit makes a ranged attack, you can re-roll the Hit roll.
PaddyMick wrote: Quick question chaps; i'd like to double check: can Badrukk's ability be used in Overwatch? Seems it can, since the wording says it's not triggered in the shooting phase.
Flashiest Gitz: While this model is leading a unit, each timea model in that unit makes a ranged attack, you can re-roll the Hit roll.
Thats how I ran it when I was using Badrukk.
In other news, according to the Meta Monday thread on Reddit Orks have taken a bit of a pasting this last week. No top placements whatsoever and only a 41% WR!
Thread is in spoilers for those that want to have a read. Not an Ork-specific sub.
PaddyMick wrote: Quick question chaps; i'd like to double check: can Badrukk's ability be used in Overwatch? Seems it can, since the wording says it's not triggered in the shooting phase.
Flashiest Gitz: While this model is leading a unit, each timea model in that unit makes a ranged attack, you can re-roll the Hit roll.
Yes. If it doesn't mention specific phase it works.
Overwatch, your shooting phase. Both case it is ranged attack.
Only rules you can't use in overwatch are those that are phase specific. That's also why sustained fire etc work.
Just came back from a match against DG under the new rules.
Damn their hard to handle with the -1WS/BS.. for a melee army, this really put's us on fumes.
First time i considered that, having shooting in this situation would be great. Clocked 70-50 for DG, but was a close match where i fumbled royally. Despite having hot rolls my choices weren't the best. My opponent also mentioned tailoring it to be anti melee which i admit made sense. Being my first time versus DG in new edition also made the match harder.
I am now having some considerations for some of my units. Oh the weirdboy was amazing, scored 11 on his own.
I am cutting the kustom-boosta the, most my opponents always have ignore modifiers, so those are 85 dead points
Forceride wrote: Just came back from a match against DG under the new rules.
Damn their hard to handle with the -1WS/BS.. for a melee army, this really put's us on fumes.
First time i considered that, having shooting in this situation would be great. Clocked 70-50 for DG, but was a close match where i fumbled royally. Despite having hot rolls my choices weren't the best. My opponent also mentioned tailoring it to be anti melee which i admit made sense. Being my first time versus DG in new edition also made the match harder.
I am now having some considerations for some of my units. Oh the weirdboy was amazing, scored 11 on his own.
I am cutting the kustom-boosta the, most my opponents always have ignore modifiers, so those are 85 dead points
Oh i totally did the same sort of fight against DG, i won it by around 15 points though. My waagh turn was perfect, good charges lined up and all, but i did jack all damage. Between the -1WS and the -1 to hit from well positioned Nurglings i effectively had -2 to hit on many units.
Even my Mega Nobz with a warboss in mega armor only hit on 5s. Thats definitely too rough and needs to be nerfed. Even if i won, this was one of the stupidest matches ive ever fought. No one wants to fight with units hitting on 5s and 6s...
Yeah, Flashgitz w/ Badrukk are actually quite lethal in overwatch. Generally its the closest unit, so extra shots Full rerolls Sustained Hits when they do hit.
It wasnt unlikely for a full squad + badrukk to cause 20 hits....in overwatch....if not more lol.... theyre actually one of the units that makes me really not like being able to overwatch units that didnt charge cause theyre alarmingly good at it.
I also struggled into DG. Lost by a lot, due to my own mistakes - and not realising what DG did - but got to punch Morty into space with a Stompa so it was fine.
Aye, think I have to take Badrukk now; if they can get out the transport, kill something, charge something they can kill outright, then kill some more in OW, then the 170pt unit deffo punching up.
My "propper" Ork army has taken another step closer to reality this week!
Quite some time ago (around Easter or so) I assembled a unit of squighog riders & then some Flashgitz. Base coated them, put them in a box with some misc Ork boys from RT-4e.....
Tonight 10/20 beastsnaggas have joined them.
I'm not really sure what the actual "plan" for this army is yet. I'm just occasionally building Ork units as the whim strikes.
Eventually, with or without a plan, i imagine it'll coeles into 2k pts.
Hmm DG proves that going full melee does not work.. too many situations. Just wished there was a variant that worked against shooting. world eaters facing DG must be a nightmare.
Hi all. If a big Mek with KFF is in a trukk or battle wagon, does the transport gain the invulnerable save or is it just the unit he leads when out of the transport? Thanks
Hogiebear wrote: Hi all. If a big Mek with KFF is in a trukk or battle wagon, does the transport gain the invulnerable save or is it just the unit he leads when out of the transport? Thanks
I believe it's only while he's out of the transport, as he isn't "on the board" while in the transport.
Thanks for this. That’s how I read it but just wanted to be sure.
I have one more question if someone can help with. If a unit of Squighog boys charges a vehicle or monster, does the lance ability give their stikkas anti 3+?
Hogiebear wrote: Thanks for this. That’s how I read it but just wanted to be sure.
I have one more question if someone can help with. If a unit of Squighog boys charges a vehicle or monster, does the lance ability give their stikkas anti 3+?
Hogiebear wrote: Hi all. If a big Mek with KFF is in a trukk or battle wagon, does the transport gain the invulnerable save or is it just the unit he leads when out of the transport? Thanks
I believe it's only while he's out of the transport, as he isn't "on the board" while in the transport.
Don't think you can give vehicles an invuln with the KFF now, as it's not an aura any more, only on the squad he's leading.
Hogiebear wrote: Hi all. If a big Mek with KFF is in a trukk or battle wagon, does the transport gain the invulnerable save or is it just the unit he leads when out of the transport? Thanks
I believe it's only while he's out of the transport, as he isn't "on the board" while in the transport.
Don't think you can give vehicles an invuln with the KFF now, as it's not an aura any more, only on the squad he's leading.
I worded my reply pretty poorly, I meant that there's only a KFF benefit while not in a transport, not that you can give a transport an invuln.
I've been tryin to make the Stompa work so I can take it a UKTC event but I've been defeated by terrain; tables are dense and everything is over 4'' high - on some maps he can only deploy right out in the open if he wants to move anywhere. So back to the drawing board, but I'd still like to play with a Morkanaut and a Gorkanut in the list, and no Beast-Snaggas, so with that in my i've come up with a new list that i'll try out next week. I've modified a method of list writing from a youtube video I watched by War Academy where every unit gets assigned a role.Feedback welcome.
Spoiler:
Morkanaut, Gorkanuat, Mek - harrassment,distraction, transport
Kommandos, 10 Boyz, Warboss + 10 Nobz in Trukk, Badrukk + 5 Flash Gitz in Trukk, 10 Lootas - contest the middle
11 Grotz in Trukk - home objective (trukk is needed to either screen backfield or protect grots from indirect)
Big Mek + 4 Manz - sit on 'safe' objective
2 Weirdboyz - action monkeys
PaddyMick wrote: I've modified a method of list writing from a youtube video I watched by War Academy where every unit gets assigned a role.Feedback welcome.
??
Isn't that just how (most) everyone have always generally written lists?
PaddyMick wrote: I've modified a method of list writing from a youtube video I watched by War Academy where every unit gets assigned a role.Feedback welcome.
??
Isn't that just how (most) everyone have always generally written lists?
How were you picking stuff before?
I was giving some thought to how the army would play, but not in such an organised way. Realising what it actually take to win a game has been clarified for me by talking to other players, videos like this and reading dakka! It's still a tug of war though, between choosing a cohesive themed army with models I want to use and trying to compete. When a list 'feels right' and comes together it's good - but I tend to constantly evolve lists rather than test them repeatedly (usually 'cos i've painted new units). I'm still learning
No plan survives contact with enemy. I generally do my list with an objective in mind and a fluid approach. Some choices have clear roles but in the thick of things they need to be flexible enough to not just do 1 thing. It's common to see this hyper focused role, but fails to account for other situations and that's when you lose the game. i am more keen to balance out and make a more round answer to every situation, this won't be always possible and that's when decision making comes along. very rarely do i feel the list let me down, more so decisions.
An example that shapes my list is situations that are hard to move around, Tau heavy shooting forces you to be durable and mobile, DG forces you to have some shooting. It's funny but i never felt orks leaned well on fluff or cheese list's, we have a simple plan. And a simple plan comes with it's caveats, your opponent knows your plan from the start. So the decision making is far more important for you, this also makes losing and taking momentum a roller coaster, but when we are down we get wiped with out much of an answer.
Sometimes it feels a feast for famine. But i kinda enjoy it.
Curious what the ork response to terminators is. I got my clock cleaned by DG termies in 8th and just played my first game of 10th against a list with GK termies. I managed to kill a total of 4 but two regenerated so they effectively felt unkillable. Most of the (admittedly somewhat limited number of) armies I’ve faced have left me feeling simply outclassed. Like orks are supposed to be the faction that rolls buckets of dice but after all those rolls, nothing on the opponent’s side dies (high toughness, high saves), then it’s their turn, they somehow get to roll even more dice and wipe out entire units without even breaking stride. So then I go look through the data sheets for something comparable to what just krumped me and it’s like, “we got nothin’.” Anyone else feel this?
@forceride that's interesting, thanks. Reckon the next level for me is to actually consider what the opponent might do as well! ha. Like I said still learning. But loving every minute with orks; never feel like I have a really bad game, even losing heavily; there always some fun to be had.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Rockets would seem to be the thing to kill terminators. Dredd or Kan Klaws in combat, are damage 3.
Rokkits. Unfortunately orks lack high AP for some reason....even our klaws are only AP2...so better to hinge on "if it does go through, dead" odds. Its not that easy to spam rokkits in one unit since tankbustas suck balls right now but its fairly easy to just have rokkits sprinkled everywhere.
Actually, thinking about it, i can only think of like 3 things with AP3+ in our army right now....two are melee and one is the SAG. Sure we have more i just cant think of but thats kinda saying something when all of our big guns are still AP2
Gulgog TufToof wrote: Curious what the ork response to terminators is. I got my clock cleaned by DG termies in 8th and just played my first game of 10th against a list with GK termies. I managed to kill a total of 4 but two regenerated so they effectively felt unkillable. Most of the (admittedly somewhat limited number of) armies I’ve faced have left me feeling simply outclassed. Like orks are supposed to be the faction that rolls buckets of dice but after all those rolls, nothing on the opponent’s side dies (high toughness, high saves), then it’s their turn, they somehow get to roll even more dice and wipe out entire units without even breaking stride. So then I go look through the data sheets for something comparable to what just krumped me and it’s like, “we got nothin’.” Anyone else feel this?
volume of fire and ap, rokkits shine, deffkoptas with -2AP 3D with twin-linked look great for it, if they get close you can MW on them, each rocket will down a termie. But i think even squig buggy will work to push saves given their slow move. Flashgits if you really want to take them out in one go, no need to dismount from truck/wagon, just use as is.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PaddyMick wrote: @forceride that's interesting, thanks. Reckon the next level for me is to actually consider what the opponent might do as well! ha. Like I said still learning. But loving every minute with orks; never feel like I have a really bad game, even losing heavily; there always some fun to be had.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Rockets would seem to be the thing to kill terminators. Dredd or Kan Klaws in combat, are damage 3.
I get the same feeling but i also enjoy to provide a challenge to my opponent and not waste their time. So i tend to fiddle my list a lot.
I had severe problems dealing with 2x10 DW Knights in a recent RTT. 4 W, 4++, -1 D is really nasty, especially paired with armour of contempt. I threw Mozrog, 10 Nobs w/ Warboss and 10 Beastsnaggas w. beastboss at them, which helped to get rid of one block over 2 fight phases, but after that, the second Blob was there and destroyed the nobs and Mozrog... Flash Gitz are inefficient because of damage reduction, everything with AP 2 or less is bad because with cover and AoC, they are still saving at 2+... Don't see anything except swamping them in 1000 points of melee heavy hitters, if you build your army like that...
It was in fact kopta rokkits that killed the terminators that I did manage to kill (with pretty stellar dice luck). But then they came back. I had a painboy whose grot orderly managed to bring a couple of models back. Once. The terminators got to bring one back every round of the game.
I had forgotten about FW stuff, so after ccs mentioned grot tanks, I took a look at FW stuff. KMB's have the profile I'm looking for but they're hazardous and damage could be 6... or it could be 1.
Along those same lines, my tankhammer lad actually put some hurt in for one or two rounds, but then he exploded himself.
High wounds is another issue I forgot to mention. Feels like it takes at least 2 rounds of both effective shooting and cc to take out any one enemy model whereas my warboss and his whole squad of nobs were wiped out by one of his units in a single shooting phase.
And as for swamping units in cc (hey, at least we can slow them down right?) if they aren't completely surrounded, there's no penalty for them falling back and turning your units into a shooting gallery once more.
I'm trying really hard to not just complain but 90% of my attacks and saves feel like a complete waste of time, and I feel like my opponents are hitting/wounding/saving on 2+ with at least 3W/model (not really all of these all of the time, but enough that that's effectively what it feels like) and have the same volume of far superior attacks. Perhaps this is just the ork's lot in life?
. Which Aspects did they field the most?
Those things last about as long as it takes for an Ork to kick a grot when he's bored.
I forgot to mention in the previous post that he might use that on his D-Weapons to foil your turn 1 charge.
