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But I think there's a misconception that gets propagated out in the community that a lack of releases or information means we are not concentrating any effort on Warmachine.

'We're completely out of touch with how modern marketing works, and fans should just innately understand that silence means progress.'

Despite the fact that almost nobody (successful) works that way in the 2020s

Also 'our production chain is broke, and despite scrambling like mad dogs, we've no solution in sight. So maybe there will be a couple Orgoth boxes at GenCon for a 'pre-release' followed by silence'

Encouraging words.

It will be very interesting to see exactly what the big announcement will be from PP over the summer and what this new round/releases/edition/wave/generation entails. With a new 40K edition on the horizon (apparently) PP needs to do something decent and interesting in a competent manner.

Not very encouraging if they can’t even figure out how to produce their products……

 Ghool wrote:
Not very encouraging if they can’t even figure out how to produce their products……

Nope, they basically said they hadn't put out any news because there really just isn't any. They are doing R&D, thats really it.

Matt Wilson: Are we Kickstarting Orgoth? No.

He can make all the excuses he wants but I think they are afraid of being embarrased on Kickstarter by lackluster participation to a mostly dead game.

Kickstarter seems like a pretty poor platform for a single faction release. That's awfully niche.

 Noir Eternal wrote:

 Ghool wrote:
Not very encouraging if they can’t even figure out how to produce their products……

Nope, they basically said they hadn't put out any news because there really just isn't any. They are doing R&D, thats really it.

Matt Wilson: Are we Kickstarting Orgoth? No.

He can make all the excuses he wants but I think they are afraid of being embarrased on Kickstarter by lackluster participation to a mostly dead game.

Warcaster still makes pretty good money despite, as far as I can tell, being far quieter on the wargaming front than Warmahordes.

Does it though? Across three kickstarters over the past 2 years they have pulled less than $1 million USD in pledges. We don't really have pledge manager data to see to what extent people increased their pledges, but the "industry average" for the board and tabletop gaming industry is around a 40% increase depending on your source. We'll be generous and say that PP has pulled $1.5 million from the kickstarter and pledge manager as a result. We'll ignore the part where about 10% of that total (~$150k) is going to disappear into kickstarter, pledge manager, and payment processing fees and just assume thats all revenue. So, thus far we have $1.5 mil over 2 years, or about $750k/yr in revenue. We have no real data to support the retail sales of these product, but I'm going to guess based on the declining kickstarter backing figures and the relatively low growth of various related social media channels, etc. that the retail/post-KS sales do *not* amount to a number greater than the KS revenues. If we assume that retail sales equals kickstarter sales, and keeping in mind that PP only pulls about 60% of the revenue of retail sales, you're looking at a total sales of around $2.4 million USD, or $1.2 million per year. While that sounds like a lot of money, once you factor in development and production costs, overhead, taxes, etc. you're probably only looking at an actual profit of around $700,000 total, or about $350k per year, which... really isn't much at all. To contextualize that, GW makes almost 50% more profit than that PER DAY.

The numbers could be way off, of course, but I think thats unlikely unless theres a monstrously large warcaster community somewhere with zero presence on mainstream western social media channels.

NVM. Thanks

I genuinely miss playing WMH, but increasingly my best memories were back in the 2nd ed in local metas, playing for fun and not constant tournaments (after we burnt all local copies of the halies and their cards)

3rd ed and themehammer was a nasty intro into the new ed and PP making the big centre piece models very pricy and hard to get in the UK didn't help, nor did the price of some of the units for what you got (Trollkin raiders, whhhhy!)

My favorite time playing Warmachine was during the beta test for 2nd edition. There was so much promise, and all kinds of enthusiasm. We still played with 3d terrain back then.

I can't remember the last time, outside of Adepticon, I've actually seen someone playing Warmachine/Hordes. And this used to be one of their strongest markets. I've never seen anyone playing Warcaster (again, outside of a small event at Adepticon).

Warcaster had the missfortune of being a game launched during Corona. It's the same as why Dystopian Wars also had a rather stalled growth.

Both are lines that have basically started (or restarted Dystopian Wars case) during the pandemic. Which appears in the wargame market to have done really well for established games, but not so well for new ones.

I put that down to the fact that established games have fans and those fans know they will get games again. They are already sold and don't need selling too as such.

New games need drive and flare and local play experiences and conventions and basically all the real world marketing that was shut down.



So I'd say that its hard to judge if those games were going to do well in a normal year based off a very inane period of time.


That said I do 100% agree that PP needs to shift things up a gear. They've almost seemed to swap management styles with the Kirby era GW period (minus the litigation parts).
DWars is steadily growing, whilst Warmachine/Hordes appear to be on life support and Warcaster isn't really seeming to grow at the rate it should. Mini Crate I think isn't getting enough rapid marketing to be interesting and it wouldn't surprise me if the company is floating on Monster Apoc

I’d be more inclined to say that the IKRPG is what’s keeping them alive at the moment.
And even the current KS for that has none of the core books available to pledge for….which is evidence that they really don’t know how to run or market a ‘proper’ KS to anyone who isn’t already a part of their fan base.
Granted the current IKRPG expansion is doing well, but I can’t help but think that if they offered a reprint of the core books it’d be doing much better in terms of funding.
What they’ve done is pretty much hamstring themselves to the audience that has already pledged for the first RPG books or somehow miraculously found them in an LGS. Which really shuts off a huge part of the market wanting to get in on their offerings.
It almost feels like they are so myopic that they can’t even be bothered to take a look at how other companies are running Kickstarters for both games and RPG books. It almost feels as though they have no one doing any marketing or research on current trends in gaming and what current gamers are looking for.
Any time I’ve seen a KS for an expansion of anything, if the base set is not offered along with it, it’s always reduced funding over the base. The diminishing returns on every one of their projects can only keep the life support going for so long.

PP needs a marketing expert. Badly. Or at least some one with their fingers a bit closer to current gaming pulse. Right now they look and feel like their marketing came out of the 90’s, which may have worked almost 20 years ago. But times have changed, and PP has not. Unfortunately.

So I’ll correct my original statement - the only things keeping them afloat right now are established fans and whales. They aren’t doing much of anything to garner any new fans or support from anyone just discovering their products.

 Ghool wrote:
I’d be more inclined to say that the IKRPG is what’s keeping them alive at the moment.
And even the current KS for that has none of the core books available to pledge for….which is evidence that they really don’t know how to run or market a ‘proper’ KS to anyone who isn’t already a part of their fan base.

While I 100% agree that they don't know how to run much of anything properly, it's also possible that they don't have the confidence that they would get enough pledges of the core books.

They would still need to have a minimum print run to make the production prices reasonable and if only 50 people pledged at the Core book level, in theory they may need to print out 2,000 books to get a decent production price. It could end up costing them way more money than they would gain by offering the core books to new pledgers.

If they really are running as light and tight as a lot of people think they are, they can't afford to take even small risks like that.

 Noir Eternal wrote:

 Ghool wrote:
I’d be more inclined to say that the IKRPG is what’s keeping them alive at the moment.
And even the current KS for that has none of the core books available to pledge for….which is evidence that they really don’t know how to run or market a ‘proper’ KS to anyone who isn’t already a part of their fan base.

While I 100% agree that they don't know how to run much of anything properly, it's also possible that they don't have the confidence that they would get enough pledges of the core books.

They would still need to have a minimum print run to make the production prices reasonable and if only 50 people pledged at the Core book level, in theory they may need to print out 2,000 books to get a decent production price. It could end up costing them way more money than they would gain by offering the core books to new pledgers.

If they really are running as light and tight as a lot of people think they are, they can't afford to take even small risks like that.

They had copies available. But they didn’t and won’t be offering them during the KS.
They’ve stated so in the comments and that those core RPG books are going to GenCon.
And what’s stopping them from figuring their costs for a new print run of core books that’s been factored into the expansions funding level?
The discounts offered to backers are insignificant or non existent, and while that helps the LGS out, it doesn’t do much to garner backers or more financial support. It’s why I don’t back their projects at all.
If it’s coming to retail anyways (and that’s what they seem to care about most), then why should I bother paying an inflated price, a high exchange rate and expensive shipping? I won’t, and I’m sure a lot of backers would agree.
The main thing most people back on KS these days is for things they won’t be able to get retail.
I back a lot of projects, and if it’s coming to retail I don’t bother, even with exclusives.
It’s a double edged sword and PP keeps cutting themselves.

 Ghool wrote:

I’d be more inclined to say that the IKRPG is what’s keeping them alive at the moment.
And even the current KS for that has none of the core books available to pledge for….which is evidence that they really don’t know how to run or market a ‘proper’ KS to anyone who isn’t already a part of their fan base.
Granted the current IKRPG expansion is doing well, but I can’t help but think that if they offered a reprint of the core books it’d be doing much better in terms of funding.
What they’ve done is pretty much hamstring themselves to the audience that has already pledged for the first RPG books or somehow miraculously found them in an LGS. Which really shuts off a huge part of the market wanting to get in on their offerings.
It almost feels like they are so myopic that they can’t even be bothered to take a look at how other companies are running Kickstarters for both games and RPG books. It almost feels as though they have no one doing any marketing or research on current trends in gaming and what current gamers are looking for.
Any time I’ve seen a KS for an expansion of anything, if the base set is not offered along with it, it’s always reduced funding over the base. The diminishing returns on every one of their projects can only keep the life support going for so long.

PP needs a marketing expert. Badly. Or at least some one with their fingers a bit closer to current gaming pulse. Right now they look and feel like their marketing came out of the 90’s, which may have worked almost 20 years ago. But times have changed, and PP has not. Unfortunately.

So I’ll correct my original statement - the only things keeping them afloat right now are established fans and whales. They aren’t doing much of anything to garner any new fans or support from anyone just discovering their products.

What you've described is very much intentional, and for (somewhat) very good reason. Kickstarter is a double-edged sword. Many retailers and distributors won't carry Kickstarter products unless they become a hot commodity and have a clear and present continuing demand at retail. More often than not, these are "sleeper hits" that made it through Kickstarter without many people noticing, and then get big reviews that suddenly spark mass interest at a point where its no longer possible to get them through kickstarter or a late pledge. The other category of things that get retail attention are "evergreen products" - stuff like Battletech that are wildly successful on kickstarter and draw more and more interest their way and don't have a limitation on product life based on people already owning it (i.e. something that you can buy multiple times over and over and get good use out of).

Warcaster thus far has not fit into either category and its unlikely that further Kickstarter campaigns are going to get them there. Short of a massive spike in interest through socials and influencers hyping the game, etc. the Kickstarter boat has sailed for them. In any case, PP is trying to make its product lines appealing to distributors and retailers so it can get their products back into distribution and into stores. Thats why their kickstarters don't really offer a discount over MSRP and don't include back catalogs, because if they did they would probably never get any new trade accounts and they would likely lose many of the ones they already have. There simply is no incentive for a retailer or distributor to stock a product that likely satiated much of the existing demand for it via another platform which undercut the retailers/distributors pricing and didn't give them any room to get in on the action. A retailer doesn't want to load up on a mountain of starter sets when most of the existing community already has them and got them from someone other than you. Hence why PP is basically treating KS as an overglorified preorder system, so that theres no bad blood with distributors and retailers and they don't feel like there is a risk of them being undercut on future kickstarters by deeply discounted product.

Unfortunately, the reality is that it probably doesn't help them anyway, many retailers are inundated with information from countless publishers big and small and just don't have the time to parse and sort through information like this. To most retailers, PP being on KS at all - regardless of how they may have structured it - is a red flag. Most either don't know or don't care how PP has structured the campaign to make it more retail and distributor friendly, and they can't be bothered to look into it further. So at the end of the day it probably does harm PP more than it helps them, but if they are determined not to become a kickstarter based publishing company (which comes with a lot of baggage in and of itself), then its the way they have to move forward unless they can find another way to raise interest and capital to produce new product.

In any case, yes they do need a marketing expert - but not for any of the reasons you've indicated here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7-iojP0Yyw

After quite a few years of no WM coverage a new Warmachine (brawl) report on MWG. The amount of positive comments is encouraging, apparently there's still audience for the game and many people just need a little nudge to start playing again.

Cyel wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7-iojP0Yyw

After quite a few years of no WM coverage a new Warmachine (brawl) report on MWG. The amount of positive comments is encouraging, apparently there's still audience for the game and many people just need a little nudge to start playing again.

Brawlmachine is definitely a hugely refreshing format. It's not even all that different from the real game; its little more than a scenario packet, but scenarios that aren't trying to spread a huge number of models across the whole table. It really renewed interest locally and pulled in a big chunk of new players when I got the locals to try it.

Painted an old metal iron fang and tharn bloodtracker recently for a wee project. Have 20 ifs and 10 trackers in total to do.

And for what's its worth these old models are still special. They just look good.

and they were made 20 years ago.

Pp have honestly not made any models thst made me go 'wow' since the minicrate female totem hunter.

I like a lot of the new Warcaster stuff. I also think that the active sideboard system is something they should consider for warmachine/hordes.

Having an in-game sideboard instead of a between game one; means that you can retain a skirmish level number of units on the table; whilst having much bigger army rosters. The issue WM/Hordes hit was that established players were getting bigger and bigger collections of models and wanted to use more of them. It wound up getting torn between skirmish and wargame.

They tried to fix it by the limited themes system and other tricks, but in the end trying to walk between the two is - messy.


I think an active ingame sideboard would be interesting. Plus I think it actually helps beat back some of the "meta" of army building. Because now you can have parts of your sideboard army which are specialist or niche in use. If you get into a fight where you don't need them, you just don't bring them to the table and you use other tools; and if you get into the niche situation you can roll out your specialist.
Even if a model isn't seeing much table time, you are bringing it to the game; you are painting and showing it off; you are getting to use it. That's a big difference to the model you buy, build and paint and then never write into an army thus it never comes ot the club (unless your case lets you carry your entire collection)

Didn't Ash say something like 'and the number of models you're probably used to playing with' at the beginning of that Brawlmachine report? QFT, buddy. I will never enjoy 75 pt Steamroller, except when I'm doing the 2-3 gargossal mambo

EDIT FOR NINJA-ING: My comment also applies to why Warcaster is attractive rules-wise and really where I thought WMH was surely going:

Having an in-game sideboard instead of a between game one; means that you can retain a skirmish level number of units on the table; whilst having much bigger army rosters. The issue WM/Hordes hit was that established players were getting bigger and bigger collections of models and wanted to use more of them. It wound up getting torn between skirmish and wargame.

I really hope Warcaster is the ground work for a MK4 rules set for Warmachine/Hordes. I just feel its set to scale better.

It does mean that they will have to play with how casters work, as I don't think WM/H would benefit from losing them entirely as Warcaster has (even there I kind of feel like a 2.0 or such might introduce caster style models into the game)

I think Warcaster is a little too fundamentally different to work for Warmchine. Matt Wilson described it as their take on Go in the same sense that Warmachine comes from a Chess origin and I think its a fair comparison. I think Warcaster only really works because of its emphasis on ranged combat making units relatively stagnant, where Warmachine would end up losing too much of that football scrum feeling that makes its melee really satisfying if it tried to take very much from it.

Really, Warmachine just needs to be smaller. The big sin to me will always be making huge bases FA:2. That bloated the game so quickly and made it really hard to reign in once things got rolling. As much as I like Brawlmachine, I do find it a little small and lacking some of the big impact elements of the 75 point game. Clashmachine appears to do a good job of splitting the difference and is probably the direction I'd like to see PP go with MK4.

 LunarSol wrote:


Brawlmachine is definitely a hugely refreshing format. It's not even all that different from the real game.

YT randomly suggested to me rewatching some old, mk2 Advanced maneuvers reports. Out of curiosity I ran the lists they used through Conflict Chamber. Modern armies that would have the model equivalents of those end-of-mk2 SR legal "big format" lists came out to be in the range of 40-50 pts. The smallest was 31pts!!! (this one https://youtu.be/chaRtndKza8?t=45) so yeah, 25pts Brawlmachine starts sounding surprisingly close to what the "big" standard used to be - and 1 hour / player hasn't changed since then...

I don't think the model count of Warmachine would be as much of an issue if the game was actually played on a full table, rather than just being the football/rugby scrum in the middle. Its an appropriate model count for a 4x4 table, but when most of the game is played in a 2x2 area in the center of the table and the remainder of it is basically "here be dragons" territory, then I think it really is too many minis for the size of the game.

Cyel wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:


Brawlmachine is definitely a hugely refreshing format. It's not even all that different from the real game.

YT randomly suggested to me rewatching some old, mk2 Advanced maneuvers reports. Out of curiosity I ran the lists they used through Conflict Chamber. Modern armies that would have the model equivalents of those end-of-mk2 SR legal "big format" lists came out to be in the range of 40-50 pts. The smallest was 31pts!!! (this one https://youtu.be/chaRtndKza8?t=45) so yeah, 25pts Brawlmachine starts sounding surprisingly close to what the "big" standard used to be - and 1 hour / player hasn't changed since then...

At the launch of MK3 a 75 point list was pretty close to end of MK2. Technically they were a little smaller because lists tilted towards heavies and away from units. Even when themes were introduced, the free points were pretty in line with MK2 themes to the point where several of my lists converted exactly. The big size creep has largely been due to PP "fixing" units by bringing their costs down pretty repeatedly throughout the edition. We've seen pretty regular 4-5 point cuts across them, which makes them desirable to the point to shift the balance back towards large units and also put a full unit or two over MK2 size. 25 points definitely isn't MK2 full game size. It's hard to run more than a single unit in Brawlmachine with any support, but Clashmachine, 50 point scale is definitely a lot closer to MK2 50 points than it was at the changeover.

Knowing how design works, there's basically no way that this point inflation wasn't intentional past a certain point.

Also, no one's really saying that they should port the WC rules over to WMH, but that they should take the design ideas and use it to allow WM to maintain its skirmish focused rules and design, but still have a design space where people can have and use large collections. Including, for example, buying the same jacks many times for more build options.

 Overread wrote:
I really hope Warcaster is the ground work for a MK4 rules set for Warmachine/Hordes. I just feel its set to scale better.

I dont want any part of the warcaster rule set (maybe with the exception of the inclusion of more terrain) anywhere near WM/H. Endless respawning models and bespoke strike dice? No thank you.

But all the nice new models and a possible MK4 are not going to mean squat if PP doesn't sort out its production issues, distribution and relationship with stores. I can't speak for US but in UK its pretty terrible and in Europe its pretty non existent.

Respawning does open up new tactics though. Sacrificial tactics are possible and the game moves outside of the "just kill stuff" angle very quickly.

I do agree that custom dice can be a bit of a pain over just regular dice; WC isn't perfect, but I think at its core its a system that can grow with a game more than WM/H did. WM/H's hit the issue that it was a skirmish game where medium to long term fans had wargame sized collections and wanted to use them. Themes are ok for cutting down, but its no fun when you've a large force and you're only able to use a fraction of it each week.

Warcaster, to my impression, allows for you to cope with that; even if just by increasing the game sideboard without actually increasing the number of models engaging in the game in itself. Even just getting to bring a model to the club with the potential to use it is a big step up from never taking the model.

I just think its a system that scales with the inevitable element of armies growing in size as collections get bigger.

When p3 paint gets rare, that'll be my sad moment.

Need more greatcoat grey, pig iron and traitor green. :p