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2x Twin-linked devourers,winged,warp field, toxin sacs, enhanced senses-196 points

12 strength 5 shots at BS 4 that re-roll to hit and to wound. not to shabby. Add that to an already pumped up Monstrous Creature that can move 12" a turn and has a 2+ save. Deadly. If this thing starts the turn within 30" inches of an enemy sqaud then their in trouble. Lets see against an imperial guard army, their stats are average.

12 shots,BS 4 hit on 3+-8 hit re-roll 4 missed- 2.6... hit

11 hit,S5 against T 3, wound on 2+-9 wound reroll missed-1.6...wound

11 wounds, 5+ save-3.6... saved

7 Guardsmen dead on average.

took more than 25% casualties,L7-41.6...% chance of fleeing

41% chance squad will be worthless for rest of game

 

Pretty sweet huh?

anti tank tyrandis- zoanthropes with warp blast. This tyrant is about shooting the brains out of enemy infantry. For close combat i have an 8 model genestealer brood with carapace and toxin sacs, a 16 model hormagaunt brood, and 8 gargoyles.

7 Guardsmen dead on average. Wow! that is miraculous. 18 inch range and LOS in my experience usually puts you in range of Plas and Melta weapons which tend to make MC take wounds. I have found it to be beneficial when using MC with wings to hide behind cover as you advance and to avoid LOS of the enemy until you can successfully charge. I think you need all the attacks possible when you charge marines. Interesting arguments but the only ranged weapon you should see on a Tyrant is the VC. Devourers belong on the Dakkafex.

I have to agree: a close-up Tyrant is a Tyrant taking a lot of hits, Warp Field or not. He either needs to be out of sight, or otherwise untargetable (AKA in combat). There are so many other good gun-platforms that you shouldn't waste a Tyrant (one of your few durable Synapses) sitting where your opponent wants him: in LOS, close enough for nasty specials, and not chopping him to pieces.

That's the thing though. Not taking 2 scytals does not preclude you from close combat.
You are only missing on 2 attacks. That is an average of 1 extra casualty. It will not make or break anything.

You have to choose your targets well. Sometimes you will want to shoot, other timse you will want to avoid that. For instance, if shooting precludes you from charging (i.e. you were not positioning well and are around 10-12" away and shooting could remove your targets for charging)

I think it is worth the cost to be able to wreck light skimmers (if you take the strenght upgrade) or cause more damage on the first turn of combat.

One extra casualty can make all the difference, especially when that casualty was carrying a power fist or force weapon. Clearing out the kill zone (i.e. forcing the opponent to remove the invisible power fist model because there are no other models left that could become casualties) is all important.

Yea, I would not ever go up against a deathcompany with a 3 attack tyrant, a 5 attack tyrant however WILL destroy the deathcompany before they strike!

(done it myself a few times....never failed.)

But apart from a few killer enemies or squads the shooty tyrant does pretty well in CC.

I'm not sure why this thread is continuing. yakface's analysis seems definitive.

What's especially amusing is that the people who are continuing to advocate the shooty flying tyrant (here's looking at you vsumra) seem to be ignoring that analysis.

A shooty hive tyrant is infinitely more likely to die early in the game than a choppy one.

Actually if you read my first post you will see my advice to be the opposite of that.

What I was agreeing to is that a shooty tyrant can still fight in CC.

What's especially amusing is that the people who are continuing to advocate the shooty flying tyrant (here's looking at you vsumra) seem to be ignoring that analysis.

What the heck does that mean anyway? what we have a right answer already so stop thinking about it......

Nothing is difinitive.

Because I disagree with his advice on a fundamental level.

It does not address the fact that a CC Flyrant has exactly 1 difference that the shooty tyrant cannot match. 2 extra attacks.

I do not think that those 2 extra attacks are worth trading 12 devourer shots for.
The gunflyrant is only 1 casualty short of the close combat version. That casualty can be more than made up for by the shooting. Particularly if you manage to get a lucky torrent and off the powerfist before you even charge. Nothing safer than that, but admittably it is only a 1/3 chance vs most armies, it is still there.

Sigh, eaten post.

Again, yakface's analysis is definitive. Happy Anarchist what you and vsurma are focusing on is only the shooty tyrant's killing capability. What you're not at all addressing is what yak pointed out - the shooty flyrant is dramatically less survivable than the choppy flyrant.

The problem is that the TL devourers are an 18 inch weapon - so while you'll paste the living heck out of an enemy squad, you are going to be looking down the barrel of a ton of heavy weapons all capable of reliably wounding your tyrant - plasma guns, krak missiles, lascannons, etc. The flyrant is not likely to survive a round of sustained shooting against an Imperial Guard gunline, or a shooty SM army with its ubiquitous las/plas squads.

The choppy tyrant survives by hiding in assaults, where the only thing that can reliably touch him is a power fist. What's more, he's very well suited to taking two assault rounds to destroy most squads which is ideal - it's important that the enemy survive the first round of assault so you're locked in during his next turn. The shooty flyrant is much less likely to be able to do this against a canny opponent - if he doesn't entirely destroy what he's shooting at then the odds are he's not going to get to charge anything and is going to die.

You and vsurma have provided no analysis as to how you intend to mitigate this massive vulnerability the gunflyrant has.

That's why I've stopped posting. People will be people and that means different strokes for different folks. Those who really want the flying Devourer Tyrant will find reasons to use it. Those who are convinced by my argument won't.

Simple as that.

But I do want to re-iterate a portion of my argument back on page 1 that seems to be ignored: And that is the fact of what a flying CC Tyrant does for your ARMY.

We can sit and argue numbers and turn theory all day long, but there is no arguing the basic fact that the Tyranid list does not contain another lethal CC unit that has Synapse and is durable. It just doesn't.

And if you want to make a list that has the versatility to win in a variety of situations, you take effective units that fufill their niche the best. That's why any good Tyranid list needs Gunfexes. You have to have some AT shooting if you don't want to be totally screwed against mech armies. The same reason you want a CC winged Tyrant in your army (if you're smart, IMO), because the things the Tyrant accomplishes in CC are unmatched by another unit in the Tyranid army.


So again: A shooty winged Tyrant cannot guarantee that his shooting casualties will not cause his fail to charge. Every turn he shoots (a non-fearless unit) planning to charge into combat there is a very real potential he will not make it. If he does make it into combat, he suffers the same chance as the CC Tyrant that the enemy will flee at the end of combat.

So that is two real chances that the Tyrant will be left sitting in the open to be shot. 1) If his charge fails due to shooting casualties. 2) If he makes it into combat and the enemy sucessfully flees.

A Flying Tyrant only faces one issue: If the opposing unit sucessfully flees from combat. And a CC Tyrant's favorite place is in combat. . .a shooty Tyrant. . .not so much.


Last comment here towards Happy Antichrist: You keep quoting the fact that we are only talking about 2 extra attacks. However you continue to ignore the fact that CC is fought during both players' turns. That means we are talking about the loss of 4 attacks over the whole game turn.

For people who understand that you need to have a Tyrant in combat to screw up your opponent's game plan, the loss of 4 Attacks a game turn is simply not acceptable. . .no matter how much shooting you get in return.

I have to disagree with Jeff and Yakface about this.  I would take the shooty tyrant over the cc tyrant every day of the week and twice on Sundays. 

Both tyrants are imminently survivable if you place them behind terrain or Fex's.  The shooty tyrant is much better against some of the most common units you expect to face, namely the 6 man las/plas squad.  A 5 attack tyrant will more than likely chew through half the squad in one turn, maybe all of it if they have suffered casualties from shooting.  This increases the chances of the squad running and leaving the tyrant exposed to the shooting you fear. 

The 3 attack tyrant can get to the same squad at the same time, maybe taking a shot at something else the turn before, and have a better chance of not taking the squad down or at least not adding a further -1 to leadership by taking the squad below half on that turn.  It sticks around and finishes the job on your opponents turn and you are free to go at it again.

More often than not I am craving the shooting I get with the devourers.  It allows the tyrant to affect more units and a turn earlier than the cc tyrant.  Those occasions the tyrant has been left in the open, close to the enemy, does give them a chance to shoot him up, but why would you send the tyrant far away from the main line in the first place?  Let there be fexes close by and the opponent will have to decide which group of TMC's will clean his clock on the next turn.

Finally I think it is not good sportsmanship to say one guy has said the definitive piece on anything in this game.  Just because one person has written more posts, spells better, or writes textbook looking material does not make them superior to anyone else.  This is not anything againt Yakface, it seems Jeff is shouting people down because he agrees with you.  This is all theory hammer in cyberspace until you see what we are talking about on the tabletop.

Feel free to seek my out Adepticon weekend and we'll play all the games any of you want.

Darth,

for what it's worth I'm "shouting people down" not because of yakface's postcount, but because of the following:
a) He provided a cogent, well written argument that addressed several issues beyond "it kills more stuff"
b) The people arguing against him failed to address any of his points beyond "but it kills more stuff"
c) yakface has a solid history of providing expert insight on Tyranid tactics.

So at this point I consider his post on the topic definitive - in the sense that at this point it's the high water mark of the thread. If someone came up with a cogent argument that somehow countered the points he made then obviously it'd stop being definitive. But that hasn't happened yet, at least not from where I'm sitting.

I have tried to address the concerns he raised. If I have done so in a fashion that wasn't clear, I will try again. Looking back, I can see that I did not address the issues as clearly as I may have been able to.

- Versatility. I agree that there is no other lethal CC, tough, fast, synapse creature in the nid dex. Which is why I would advocate taking a tyrant. None of those things change when you switch the claws for guns though, except maybe change lethal in CC to merely dangerous.

- Fail to charge issue - Can be countered in a number of ways.
#1 - Simply not shooting. You will have likely shot a turn you were not in charge range, usually your first turn. You will likely shoot again, after munching in close combat. You don't really need to shoot that often, especially with speeders, vypers and other such light vehicles flying about, to make your points back shooting.
#2 - Especially useful when you don't have to risk failed morale (i.e. fearless or very high LD troops, or troops you are not likely to cause many casualties against) you can simply make sure you use your 12" move to position yourself closer to 2-4" away from an enemy. That way, even if you kill 2-3 models, you should be able to handily assault anyways.
#3 - Not plan on charging at all if they fail the morale. If they flee to your shooting, they are likely in trouble anyways, unless they are marines (cures them) So plan defensive measures as a fail safe in case you don't get to charge.

- Lastly the four attack thing. Yes it is true that you get four attacks. That is a very good point. However, it is still only 1 extra casualty a combat round, which is mainly going to be dangerous only if you charge termies or something of the like. I think this is the best argument made however, seeing as how they are the hardest thing to deal with, especially with zilla nids. I might still argue that 'stealers are a much better option to assault them with, but the trick is getting to them. On the other hand, they are often associated with Libby's who carry nasty force weapons that can kill you in 1 hit. Very dangerous that, even if they have to tempt fate by wounding on 6's (5's if they have Furious charge)

So at this point, I see it like this. You trade the extra 12 shots of devastating anti-skimmer and anti-infantry (particularly 6 man lasplas MEQ) for much increased effectiveness against terminators and the like.

Arguments against -
You get lots of the shots required, and better with Dakkafexes. On the other hand, nearly every army will have a core of either infantry, or mechanized infantry, so there is usually something to shoot at.
Terminators become even more dangerous to assault, and you only have stealers to deal with them, which have issues with getting close enough to count without dying.

Arguments for
You are trading a relatively small amount of close combat power for vastly increased ranged ability. You can quickly decimate skimmer squadrons, as well as infantry squads. You can still charge and kill in close combat.

Does that count as a cogent argument?

I have a way of ending this silly argument.  Why not take both?  I don't understand in a game over 1500 why you wouldn't take 2 tyrants anyway.  Take a flying one for yakface's reasons.  Fast, durable, mobile synapse, and can be tooled up nasty.  Twin Devourer tyrant with enhanced sense only costs 121 and is much better than its dakkafex cousin.  The argument that devourer-tyrant is not as durable can easily be countered by tyrant guard.   Best of both worlds as far as I can tell.  Add in 2 gunfexes if at 1850/2000 pts to target heavy tanks and you have very optimized shooting.   The broodlord is just too slow and difficult to position right.  Only drawback with 4 TMC's is escalation, but not much you can do about that.  Add a lictor and maybe it will help...

Darth Diggler said:
Both tyrants are imminently survivable if you place them behind terrain or Fex's. The shooty tyrant is much better against some of the most common units you expect to face, namely the 6 man las/plas squad. A 5 attack tyrant will more than likely chew through half the squad in one turn, maybe all of it if they have suffered casualties from shooting. This increases the chances of the squad running and leaving the tyrant exposed to the shooting you fear.

The 3 attack tyrant can get to the same squad at the same time, maybe taking a shot at something else the turn before, and have a better chance of not taking the squad down or at least not adding a further -1 to leadership by taking the squad below half on that turn. It sticks around and finishes the job on your opponents turn and you are free to go at it again.

See what you've indicated in your own example? ". . .maybe taking a shot at something else the turn before. . ."

That is the downfall of the flying shooting Tyrant. We both agree that you need to hide behind something to preserve this creature, yet the shooting Tyrant often seduces players into coming out from behind cover to take a shot.

Of course there are rare cases where a Tyrant can still be mostly behind terrain but only target a single enemy unit, but perfect situations like that are rather rare: A single prime target within 18", but no other targets able to draw LOS back to the Tyrant. It just doesn't usually happen.

Even if it was a single Las/Plas marine unit, the Tyrant would only kill a few bolter marines leaving the Lascannon and Plasma to potentially cause 1-2 wounds on the Tyrant.


Your analysis vs. the 6 man marine unit is correct; although it means that you won't be shooting at the marine unit before you charge it. If you do, then we're essentially in the exact same scenario as with the pure CC Tyrant (under 50% strength for the post-combat morale check).

With a CC Tyrant there is usually a very simple way to deal with the 6 man Las/Plas squad. Most players will spread their units out naturally to defend against the Gunfexs' Stranglers. That means it is sometimes possible to set up your Tyrant's charge so he will only be killing 2 marines (the one he gets in base contact plus another within coherency).

That leaves the marines above 50%. . .although still outnumbered 2:1, many marine players now take the Ld10 Master meaning you have a pretty decent chance of staying locked in combat. . .and (again) in that second round of combat the CC Tyrant's 2 extra attacks will really pay dividends.


To be honest, the small unit of marines is a pain for either Tyrant. Both Tyrants have to reduce their effectiveness to attempt to stay locked in combat (the shooty Tyrant can't shoot at the unit, while the CC Tyrant has to set up an intentionally poor charge).

With either beast the best tactic is to target a unit in area terrain and use the consolidation movement to either get behind the terrain (optimal), or at least just stay within the terrain to minimize the damage caused by the inevitable return fire.

Those occasions the tyrant has been left in the open, close to the enemy, does give them a chance to shoot him up, but why would you send the tyrant far away from the main line in the first place? Let there be fexes close by and the opponent will have to decide which group of TMC's will clean his clock on the next turn.

If you have to ask that question then I fear you don't understand why the flying Tyrant is so important to the Tyranid army. Opponents can and will shoot the bejeezus out of Tyranids as they cross the board. A good Tyranid general will send some fast (or sneaky) units into the army for the sole purpose of shutting down firing, blocking LOS, and disrupting the enemy's movement/plans.

no other Tyranid unit performs this role as well as the Flying Tyrant period. The simple fact that any CC he is involved with blocks LOS to your other MCs should be reason enough to get him into combat ASAP.

The Happy Antichrist wrote:
Does that count as a cogent argument?

Absolutely. However my counter to your argument is by attacking the basic theory you adhere to for your Tyrant.

#1 - Simply not shooting. You will have likely shot a turn you were not in charge range, usually your first turn.

This is exactly what I have been talking about the entire time. You are leaving your Tyrant open to fire on the first turn if you are shooting the enemy. Period.

A flying Tyrant should spend his first turn behind cover getting into position to charge. If you are shooting with your Tyrant on the first turn then I think you're already making a huge mistake.


I also haven't mentioned up until this point that the shooty Tyrant also loses much of its ability/versatility if you want to charge into a unit that is already locked in combat with other bug units. You won't be able to shoot, so you're left deciding what the priority is: save your other units in combat by sending the Tyrant in, or shoot and charge a different target (and potentially taking the Tyrant out of Synapse range?).

As a guard player, let me assure you that a tyrant of any description in line of sight and within 18" of the gunline WILL die by the end of the turn. T 6 with a 2/3 + save and 4 wounds is tough. It is also the lynchpin of your army. Ask yourself this: you have two options with your single flying shooty synapse creature (barring warriors which no one uses),

option a) hide behind terrain giving synapse to hodres of gaunts, occasionally popping out to take pot shots net game kills: 6/7 meat sticks

option b) charge gung-ho into the midst of a guard army guns blazing shouting the cockroach equivalent of "hoora!" and bust a squad of guardsmen. Now, once your triumphant slaughter is over, it's going to be my turn. Expect 3 las cannons and 13 plasma gun shots to the face. That's not to mention the flashlights. Or the heavy bolters. Or the multi-lasers. Or the stubbers. Or the battle cannons. Or the inferno cannons. Or (my personal fav.) crazed fremen on horses. It will die. That simple. Net game kills: 6/7 meat sticks.

In the mean time, all of your gaunt squads are being held up by AV 10 sentinels, which they have no hope of hurting.

cheers

I never advocated the use of a winged shooty tyrant.

I do like walking ones though, they can use tyrant guard and other TMCs in the army to negate some fire along with cover.

A winged one is just a expensive way to get 1 extra turns shooting in and it does not justify the cost to me, also I much prefer the CC winged tyrant.

That said a winged shooty one does have alot of power and it can stay alive in CC just as well as a CC one as long as it is not against Pfist squads.

While a CC tyrant empties its kill zone and recieves no return attacks the shooty one is unlikely to do so with just 4 attacks on the charge, also chances are your no giving it many CC upgrades (and even if you are it becomes very expensive) so the CC tyrant is more powerful in CC. Even if you do get lucky and empty the kill zone on the charge the chance of doing this again with 3 attacks is nto good.

because the things the Tyrant accomplishes in CC are unmatched by another unit in the Tyranid army.

(where is the quote option?) I think ravaners do the same job against most enemies but I love to have a model that is almost always at the top of the food chain! Against most super pimped out DPs I can just throw in the tyrant and expect to come out on top, sometimes killing the DP before it strikes. (granted I pay 229pts for my wingedtyrant)

Both tyrants are imminently survivable if you place them behind terrain or Fex's.  The shooty tyrant is much better against some of the most common units you expect to face, namely the 6 man las/plas squad.  A 5 attack tyrant will more than likely chew through half the squad in one turn, maybe all of it if they have suffered casualties from shooting.  This increases the chances of the squad running and leaving the tyrant exposed to the shooting you fear.

Good thing for us marines show no fear and just take no retreat wounds if they fail their ld check and are caught instead of running

Course they can still run on the first turn as if there is no Pfist in the squad chances are the btb model is the one doing the first dying.

Atleast alot of races have high ld these days and like to stay in combats that are essentially a death sentance for them.

Not so lucky with the some of the other races though, unless their fearless.

More often than not I am craving the shooting I get with the devourers.  It allows the tyrant to affect more units and a turn earlier than the cc tyrant.  Those occasions the tyrant has been left in the open, close to the enemy, does give them a chance to shoot him up, but why would you send the tyrant far away from the main line in the first place?  Let there be fexes close by and the opponent will have to decide which group of TMC's will clean his clock on the next turn.

Bit of an iffy defence though, they will still shoot the more expensive, more powerful, more mobile tyrant even when given the choice.

Anyway I just don't see the winged gun tyrant doing SO much more than a waalking shooty tyrant that I would sacrifice the CC monster for this. Just me.

vsurma: it seems we were talking past one another. The subject was on a choice between either a flying shooty tyrant or a flying choppy tyrant.

I do agree that as a second HQ choice the shooty tyrant doesn't seem like a bad choice. It's that or the broodlord I guess.

I'm thinking I would take the CC winged tyrant just for variety. However, it would be the stripped down ubercheap one, not the 229 point monster described above. (crimeney that is a lot of pionts to spend! May be unmatched but at what cost!!!)

Part of it may just be different lists that are emphasized.
The list I would use would be shooty zilla list with 1 flyrant (possibly with gargoyle escort if it at 1850) and a few stealers. They sit back and shoot mostly, and the stealers hide behind the MCs and wait to countercharge vs assault armies. The MCs provide another little bit of close combat potential. 2 or so Lictors for the rerolls in escalation, as well as deep striking on aggravating enemies to tie them up a turn or to.

On the other hand, there is some use to having the flyrant and advance elements tie up enemy shooting, long enough to give you an edge in your own shooting.

The reasons I'd always take a CC tyrant is kind of nebulous, but basically, it's Necron insurance for an army that normally struggles with Necrons. It's doubly good because you can reliably charge it into a small powerfist squad and win without taking return hits (whereas the shootie tyrant has a lot harder time denying return attacks).

Another fairly minor thing to consider is that the CC tyrant is a lot better at killing vehicles in close combat. Something you wouldn't think is a big deal, but, being able to dish out more likely hits to skimmers or moving vehicles is something I've seen win people games with the Tyrant.

A Winged Tyrant with 2 TL Devourers would work really well Vs DE Wych Cults___the TL Devs own the Raiders and Ravagers and when it assaults Wyches, it wouldn't be penalized at all, while a Twin Scything Tyrant couldn't even have extra Ats. Of course, you should be shooting at those crazy gals anyways.

I'm pretty sure wyches cannot take away basic stat attacks and unless I remember wrong all tyranid upgrades are not really upgrades but they replace the basic stats, a tyrant with 2 talons has 5 BASE attacks.

Still against necrons the tl dev tyrant does fine, its not like your losing the CC and killing less might even be better as you have a better chance of still having someone in btb (though a smart opponent would always take the btb model away)

The thing with the winged dev tyrant is you can already have 4 devil MCs in your elite and the other HQ slot, there is no other opurtunity to take a real CC monster like a Cc tyrant.

sure the tyrant shoots better than the devilfexs but its not that much better!
A winged CC tyrant IS THAT MUCH AND MORE better than ANY CC fex you could ever make!

Not that every army needs it but if you do then the winged tyrant is generally where your CC power is going to be.

I'm pretty sure wyches cannot take away basic stat attacks and unless I remember wrong all tyranid upgrades are not really upgrades but they replace the basic stats, a tyrant with 2 talons has 5 BASE attacks.

You're thinking of biomorph enhancements, which do indeed have that clause. Weapon biomorphs however, operate differently. If what you said were the case, than a tyrant that bought a set of scytals would only have 1 attack, because the +1 attack replaces the base 3.

A tyrant with 2x scytals would indeed lose both extra attacks if fighting against wyches.

Ive thined this thing outto allow for a biovore and zoey. the new tyrant is

2x TL Dev,Enhanced Senses,Winged,Toxin Sacs

Friends don't let friends use biovores.

The points are better spent elsewhere. Zoanthropes always work best in pairs of 2-3, so consider getting a second zoey instead of the 'vore.

Using one is not the worste idea as it is a scoring unit, you can use it to grab rear objectives while downing an open topped vehicle or 2. I prefer the acid mine, being a template it gets 2 hits on open topped and can even harm SM tanks (though it aint easy)

You may even be able to use it to snipe out the heavy/special weapons, this idea just off the top of my head so it may be wrong but if you land the mine right next to the model you want to snipe yet not in btb, then it will explode the turn after when the enemy fires, perhaps in this case he has the take the model in the blast area??? maybe not, someone interested in using the vores might want to check the legality.

They are not bad agaist open topped armies like eldar, de, orks, tau but against others don't do much, I can see a unit of 1 vore being worth it but would not take more than that, last tournament I played a few weeks back I tried one, in 3 games (against meqs) it killed maybe 4 marines, took 0 objectives (bad missions for the vore I guess) penetrated 2 dreads oddly enough (then I rolled 1s)

Really didnt do much for me.

Actually, I believe their Living Artillery rule explicitly states that they are not scoring units.

Biovores are simply not good anymore.