How are you going to play the "other" Gargantuan creatures in Apocalypse?

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**yakface**

If you weren't aware, GW made many signifigant changes to the Gargantuan creature rules for games of Apocalypse. IMHO, I think the changes are much easier to remember and play with so I'm all for them, but the problem is, they didn't include revised datafaxes for all the Gargantuan creatures in the game. This leads to kind of a strange issue if you want to use any of the other Gargantuan creatures (like the Trygon or Scythed Hierodule).

This is mainly because the creatures function rather differently depending on which rules set you're following and it could be really confusing to your opponent that your Scythed Hierodule (IA rules) only moves 6 inches while your Barbed Hierodule (Apoc rules) gets to move 12 inches and the Barbed Hierodule (who is supposed to be a shooting creature) has more attacks than the Scythed Hierodule while the Scythed Hierodule is quite more durable than the Barbed Hierodule (since the Scythed version has 'mass points') for way less points! Confusing!

One of the Apocalypse legendary formations (Subterranean Swarm) even instructs you use a Trygon (with the rules from Imperial Armor), but it is unclear whether the general Apocalypse rules for Gargantuan creatures still apply to the Trygon. Does it get to move 12 inches in the movement phase (Apoc rules), fleet in the shooting phase (both sets of rules) and then get to charge 12 inches in the Assault phase (IA rules)?

So really quick, for those of you who don't know, here are the differences between the Gargantuan creature rules in Imperial Armor and in Apocalypse:

IMPERIAL ARMOR

The big thing GCs (Gargantuan Creatures) have in the IA rules is 'Mass Points' which are kind of like 'Structure Points' for war machines. These are on top of the creatures normal wounds and they aren't automatically lost when the creature suffers a wound. Instead, whenever the creature is wounded (and fails its save) you have to check if the wound is serious enough to lose a Mass Point (otherwise the wound is just ignored). Ordnance, Massive, Mega or Lethal (instant death) weapons with a Strength equal or greater than the GCs Toughess always cause a serious wound (lose a mass point). All other weapon types with a Srength equal or greater than the GC's Toughness are 'serious' (lose a mass point) on a roll of 4+. If the attack's Strength is less than the GC's Toughness (regardless of weapon type) then the wound is only serious on a roll of a 6. Confusing, ain't it? I'm glad they got rid of it in Apocalypse, but it certainly makes GCs much tougher to kill.
GCs in IA rules can always be targeted when locked in combat.
GCs in IA rules move as infantry (6 inches in the movement phase) unless specified otherwise.
GCs in IA rules have to fire all their weapons at the same enemy unit unless specified otherwise.
GCs in IA rules count as differing numbers of models in close combat depending upon the size of the creature (either 10, 20 or 30 models) and they fight as infantry (they lock their opponents in combat).
GCs in IA rules can theoretically suffer Instant Death once their Mass Points are gone.

APOCALYPSE

In Apocalypse, Mass Points are gone, replaced (in general) with more wounds on the creatures profile. Even though a singe Mass Point was much more valuable then a single wound the conversion of some creatures from IA to Apoclaypse resulted in a much easier to kill creature (the Barbed Hierodule went from 5 Wounds, 2 Mass Points and a 2+ save in IA to 6 Wounds, no Mass Points and a 3+ save in Apocalypse).
GCs in Apoc all get to move 12" in the movement phase and all get to fleet if they don't shoot (only certain GCs in the IA rules were allowed to fleet). Some GCs in Apoc are still allowed to fleet if they fire one weapon and may fleet 2D6" if they don't fire any weapons!
GCs in Apoc can always fire all their weapons and can fire them each at any target they want.
GCs in Apoc are immune to psychic powers (friendly and enemy).
GCs in Apoc are immune to instant death (they take one wound instead) and they are only wounded by sniper and poisonous weapons on a to wound roll of a 6.
GCs in Apoc can make a stomp attack in close combat that automatically makes one attack against every model they're engaged with instead of the GC making its normal attacks.
GCs in Apoc can always charge any unit regardless of who they fired at, they always count as 30 models in combat (regardless of the size of the model) and their attacks against vehicles count as Ordnance.
GCs in Apoc force all non-Gargantuan foes in close combat to break off combat at the end of each round and consolidate 1" away from the GC. This means GCs never remain locked in combat unless they are fighting another GC.
All GCs in Apoc are 'terrifying' which means enemies must pass a morale check to charge them (only some GCs in IA have this ability).
GCs in Apoc are able to 'tank shock' enemy units during their movement (only the Gargantuan Squiggoth can do that in the IA rules).

WHICH ONE IS "BETTER"?

GCs in the IA rules are much, much tougher, but none of their shooting weapons even approach what was given to the GCs who were published in Apoc.
GCs are much more deadly in close combat (able to do a stomp attack against all opponents).
Since GCs in the Apoc rules can't stay locked in combat with non GC opponents, they will generally only be able to make their attacks in their own Assault phase unless the opponent is crazy enough to do so.
In short, GCs in Apocalypse do a whole lot more damage in both shooting and close combat but they also are easier to kill, and they cost a lot more points. All-in-all I like the Apoc rules better than the IA rules (but no comment on which one is better balanced).

SO WHERE ARE THE DARN POLL CHOICES?

The question again is this: When playing Apocalypse games if you are going to use a non-Apoc GC, how are you going to play with it?

OPTION A: I'm going to field the IA GC (like the Trygon) following the IA rules to the letter and pretending that its rules in no way are impacted by the Apoc GC rules. Therefore the Trygon will still move 6 inches in the movement phase, it will still be able to lock non-GC enemies in close combat and it will still have Mass Points. It will naturally cost the same points value as published in the IA book.

OPTION B: I'm going to field the IA GC (like the Trygon) following all the Apoc rules for GCs and IA rules for GCs to the best I can combine the two without breaking any rules. So, the Trygon would get to move 12" in the movement phase (Apoc rules), the 2D6" fleet move (Apoc rules) and then charge 12" in the Assault phase (IA rules). The Trygon would count as only 10 models in CC (since the IA rules are specific about it). In combat the Trygon would be able to make stomp attacks (Apoc rules) and would force non-GC opponents out of CC at the end of each phase. The Trygon's Scythe Tail would essentially be useless as it can almost never start the Assault phase engaged with 4 or more enemy models. The Trygon would still count as having 1 Mass Point and would cost the amount of points listed in the IA book.

OPTION C: I'm going to field the IA GC (like the Trygon) following all the Apoc rules for GCs and only follow the IA rules where it seems absolutely necessary. This means I'd ignore the Trygon's Mass Point, its ability to assault 12 inches in the Assault phase and its Scythe-Tail (those things seem replaced by the Apoc rules). I'd keep its ability to Deep Strike using 'Subterranean Tunnels' and its Bio-electirc field since those seem like abilities unique to the creature. Besides those two things it would function exactly like an Apoc GC. It would still cost the same number of points as published in IA. I may ask my friends if we can shave some points off the total since we are ignoring its Mass Point.

OPTION D: The exact same as option 'C' except that I'm going to give +1 Wound (or more) to the Trygon's statline to make up for the loss of of its Mass Point. I may add a few token points to the cost of the beast just to make my friends happy since I did add a wound to the statline (even though it was just to replace the lost Mass Point).

OPTION E: I'm going to come up with my own Apocalypse data sheet for the creature. In an attempt to mimic the changes given to the other GCs in Apoc I'll probably give the creature 1-2 more wounds, a Strength of 10, and a couple of extra Attacks. Its points value will also go up to make it on par with the points costs of the other GCs in the Apocalypse book.

OPTION F: Something else entirely. Post what that is below.

Thanks for reading and voting!

If you want to see my house rule ideas for datafaxes for the three Tryanid Gargantuan creatures not included in the Apocalypse rulebook see this thread:

dakkadakka.com/CommunityForums/tabid/56/forumid/16/view/topic/postid/200595/Default.aspx

**Tacobake**

I said option E, because I think there's a big difference between a Trygon and a Bio-Titan, especially when it comes to their movement rates. You ever see Alien vs Predator where the big queen Alien comes and is a stampeding monster? That's what I've always thought of for Carnifexes when people talk about giving them fleet rules. If it's big it goes faster. You can't outrun an elephant, and you especially can't outrun a T-Rex.

So in Apoc I would keep the movement rules the same (it probably deserves fleet if it doesn't already have it), add a wound, take a way a mass point, and most importantly give it the same defences against poison weapons and sniper rifles.

At 290 points a Trygon is really just a Carnifex+, I would allow it to lock enemies in close combat, but no stomping. It's a snake.

**George Spiggott**

I voted 'E:' The IA Trygon simply 'counts as' a Barbed Hierodule from Apocalypse. The most simple and yet at the same time the worst possible solution.

Until I could make my own datasheet of course.

**GUARD RLUE!!**

i said B because i played a subterranian swarm and that one seems the one that works best. if you can combine the rules without breaking any 1 individual rules then why not do that. if you are going to"tweak" the rules then youll need to make your own data sheet for it, change the points value and show every opponent the sheet before every game.

**Lorek**

None of the above; I'll play them like they're seen here.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/iaapocalypse.htm

Solves that problem nicely.

**yakface**

You can't just post that and not say where you got that info!!!

Is there any information on what exactly will be in that book? I needs to know!

**Lorek**

This was in the Forgeworld Newsletter #187, which I just got.

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Imperial Armour Apocalypse
[i][i][i][/i][/i][/i]Our preview this newsletter is for the upcoming book; Imperial Armour Apocalypse. This new hardback contains everything you`ll need to use your collection of Forge World models to fight apocalyptic battles in conjunction with Warhammer 40,000 Apocalypse. Imperial Armour Apocalypse can be also be used for Warhammer 40,000 and it replaces Imperial Armour Update 2006, plus it updates the Imperial Armour hardback books where necessary. The book is packed with 67 new datafaxes, covering our range from Imperial Guard super-heavy tanks like the Shadowsword, and Malcador, to the terrifying weapons of Chaos and their Daemon Lords, to the war machines of the Orks and Eldar and monstrous creatures like the Scythed Hierodule and Trygon. <script type="text/javascript"></script>
There are also 25 new battle formations, including the Space Marine Drop Pod assault force, Ork Tanka Mobs, Eldar Serpent Rider Hosts, Winged Tyranid Swarms and Tau Pathfinder Search and Destroy Cadre to the Necron Undying Legion and the Chaos Deathclaw Talon wing.

You can see the cover for this forthcoming book Here. The book should be available around Christmas time so keep your eye on future newsletters for more details.

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**Agamemnon2**

And thus, the point will soon be made moot. And there was much rejoicing. :-D

**yakface**

Of course it is a hardcover, so it will be around $80 again. I'll still gladly buy it, but they really could have put these out in PDF form or in the IA update softcover format so we weren't essentially paying more money for books we already bought. . .then again it sounds like it will have plenty of new rules to, in the form of IA legendary formations so all-in-all I will definitely be looking forward to this book.

**Agamemnon2**

Me too, really. For me it will be my first IA book, so it has an added layer of interest as I've no previous investment that could be invalidated by it. I think they went with hardcover because of the sheer size of the book. IAU2k6 is 48 pages, whereas IAA will have 67 datasheets and 25 formations, all (presumably) one-per-page in the Apocalypse format (though that is a fairly space-wasting format-really). I think we're looking at, say, 196 pages.