While I would love to see it, I don't think it's going to happen. There are too many other releases for other games taking developer and production time.
And while GW may have been willing to re-brand a few AI and Titanicus boxes for Legions, I can't imagine them doing it for all of the Legions stuff for a new '40k Epic' or even 'Great Crusade' epic game.
Realistically 30k/Heresy Epic was all that we were ever going to get, as it's very limited SKUs, a core set and a few campaign books. So if you want to play Orks you need to take your water wings off and either go for the fan-made Legions adaptations that Apologist and others are working on, or go NetEpic/Net Armageddon or similar. You will be sat with your *something* in your hand and a long wait otherwise.
What you think gw will be releasing for legions in 10 years though? Eventually they will run out of stuff they can release. Then they need to decide do they leave money on table or take it.
tneva82 wrote: What you think gw will be releasing for legions in 10 years though? Eventually they will run out of stuff they can release. Then they need to decide do they leave money on table or take it.
I'm gonna guess there's a higher chance the game is axed or stagnant in 10 years rather than them releasing xenos. Prove me wrong, GW, prove me wrong.
My FLGS finally got word from GW that the ruined civitas set is going to go mailorder only from now on. GW lost the shipment of LI stuff when the release came so I guess I can say goodbye to my discount :(. Hopefully at some point they'll at least start shipping the starter set and civitas sector again.
MoD_Legion wrote: My FLGS finally got word from GW that the ruined civitas set is going to go mailorder only from now on. GW lost the shipment of LI stuff when the release came so I guess I can say goodbye to my discount :(. Hopefully at some point they'll at least start shipping the starter set and civitas sector again.
Ah crap. So that's what is happening with the ruins. Thanks for the heads up!
Pacific wrote: While I would love to see it, I don't think it's going to happen. There are too many other releases for other games taking developer and production time.
And while GW may have been willing to re-brand a few AI and Titanicus boxes for Legions, I can't imagine them doing it for all of the Legions stuff for a new '40k Epic' or even 'Great Crusade' epic game.
Realistically 30k/Heresy Epic was all that we were ever going to get, as it's very limited SKUs, a core set and a few campaign books. So if you want to play Orks you need to take your water wings off and either go for the fan-made Legions adaptations that Apologist and others are working on, or go NetEpic/Net Armageddon or similar. You will be sat with your *something* in your hand and a long wait otherwise.
Careful now, if it does happen 10 years from now tneva will bring receipts and call you out about denying the truth.
I do broadly agree with you, for the time being I don't see it happening. GWs production and logistics capabilities seem to be struggling to keep up with the games they currently support (and it seems like LI and TOW may very well have pushed it past the breaking point, even with the recent expansions that GW has done), the specialist team is now supporting how many games? Like 8? But the team isn't 8x larger than it was when it was just doing Horus Heresy for Forgeworld and Blood Bowl in plastic. Where would they even find the time to sculpt minis and write rules and lore and produce art for *another* set of games?
MoD_Legion wrote: My FLGS finally got word from GW that the ruined civitas set is going to go mailorder only from now on. GW lost the shipment of LI stuff when the release came so I guess I can say goodbye to my discount :(. Hopefully at some point they'll at least start shipping the starter set and civitas sector again.
Ah crap. So that's what is happening with the ruins. Thanks for the heads up!
Pacific wrote: While I would love to see it, I don't think it's going to happen. There are too many other releases for other games taking developer and production time.
And while GW may have been willing to re-brand a few AI and Titanicus boxes for Legions, I can't imagine them doing it for all of the Legions stuff for a new '40k Epic' or even 'Great Crusade' epic game.
Realistically 30k/Heresy Epic was all that we were ever going to get, as it's very limited SKUs, a core set and a few campaign books. So if you want to play Orks you need to take your water wings off and either go for the fan-made Legions adaptations that Apologist and others are working on, or go NetEpic/Net Armageddon or similar. You will be sat with your *something* in your hand and a long wait otherwise.
I've been giving it a lot of thought this week, and I'm in agreement that Epic'40K is no longer on the cards.
Just curious, but whats the fan-supported scene like for Warmaster in comparison to NetEpic?
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RazorEdge wrote: Thery need to stretch AoS & 40k Editions back to 4 Year circles...
This would be sensible as both are joined by their own skirmish and dungeon crawler games. Its no longer a case of trying to sell an army box to a customer but which game is the right fit for them.
Pacific wrote: While I would love to see it, I don't think it's going to happen. There are too many other releases for other games taking developer and production time.
And while GW may have been willing to re-brand a few AI and Titanicus boxes for Legions, I can't imagine them doing it for all of the Legions stuff for a new '40k Epic' or even 'Great Crusade' epic game.
Realistically 30k/Heresy Epic was all that we were ever going to get, as it's very limited SKUs, a core set and a few campaign books. So if you want to play Orks you need to take your water wings off and either go for the fan-made Legions adaptations that Apologist and others are working on, or go NetEpic/Net Armageddon or similar. You will be sat with your *something* in your hand and a long wait otherwise.
I've been giving it a lot of thought this week, and I'm in agreement that Epic'40K is no longer on the cards.
I agree...or at least I don't think it's anywhere in the business plan. They're keeping the concepts for these games limited.
It's a shame, because as a fan of AT I think xenos would give the game a real shot in the arm. And although I'm not interested in LI (I have the rulebook though), there are obviously fans of the game that would undoubtedly love to see xenos expansions, etc as part of a proper Epic 40K game. But them's the breaks when you get attached to a GW game that isn't one of their core products. *shrug*
Lets not forget when AT launched GW were very clear that Epic wasn't being made.
The biggest barrier to LI evolving into Epic is the simple fact that they'd have to remake a lot of the core models for the Marine faction - then again that might even be a selling point as far as GW is concerned
Overread wrote: Lets not forget when AT launched GW were very clear that Epic wasn't being made.
The biggest barrier to LI evolving into Epic is the simple fact that they'd have to remake a lot of the core models for the Marine faction - then again that might even be a selling point as far as GW is concerned
Would they though? Newer marks aren't even requirement. Rhino's etc work just fine.
GW is already retconning and changing 40k fluff so keeping legions stuff around wouldn't be stretch.
Plus you can introduce eldar, orks and chaos marines just fine without jumping to 40k. There is after all 31k, 32k, 33k etc left...It's not like imperium just threw everything away right away.
That's small issue and frankly 1 sprue for marine infantry would do the trick anyway.
People "know" that GW is the only company were you can be sure that the games will last forever and will always be played
at the same time GW knows that they make the most money on release and not with ongoing support
and Necromunda has seen its own re-release of the new now complete rulenbook and faction books after each bigger expansion
we will see of LI follows Necromunda and we get the "full" rulebook in a year that contains all the expansion rules with the factions rules being their own book or if it will be left aside like AI and re-launched with a 2nd Edi to be left alone again
Yeah. The sad thing is, it will go through a Bookrumunda phase. That killed Necromunda in my area. Dozens of contradicting books with piecemeal bits of the game in. Now it's a little more stable, no-one will go for it, because they all expect it to cycle round in a year or two like 40k/AoS.
Yeah. The sad thing is, it will go through a Bookrumunda phase. That killed Necromunda in my area. Dozens of contradicting books with piecemeal bits of the game in. Now it's a little more stable, no-one will go for it, because they all expect it to cycle round in a year or two like 40k/AoS.
I am our groups librarian basically, I buy all the books, scan them and distribute them to our group to save money and interest, if I did not do this then the Bookromunda phase as you call it would have killed us off too due to lack of ability to even get the hard copies or cost, love me munda though so I do not mind much.
I am our groups librarian basically, I buy all the books, scan them and distribute them to our group to save money and interest, if I did not do this then the Bookromunda phase as you call it would have killed us off too due to lack of ability to even get the hard copies or cost, love me munda though so I do not mind much.
I admire your team spirit.
I don't think its much as an issue with Legions Imperialis as the core book contains enough options for a solid army in a single book, and more so than Adeptus Titanicus which only offers two Legios to pick from and no Houses at all. LI's core book feels very generous in comparison, and probably the only book a player will need. Most other GW games require at least two expensive books just to get started...
My only gripe with this is not being able to take both Marine and Solar formations for the primary part of an army; it has to be one or the other. The "Legion Astranii Class Augmented Spearhead" formation feels like what a real Epic army should be; a gathering of forces into a single grand army. The contents of the box set looks like a complete force, whereas the box set for AT can be played as a single force. An army in Horus Heresy should be whether it's Loyalist or Traitor, not bluntly Marines vs Solar. A 28mm battle is different as a single formation would be the entire army for Horus Heresy.
I am our groups librarian basically, I buy all the books, scan them and distribute them to our group to save money and interest, if I did not do this then the Bookromunda phase as you call it would have killed us off too due to lack of ability to even get the hard copies or cost, love me munda though so I do not mind much.
I admire your team spirit.
I don't think its much as an issue with Legions Imperialis as the core book contains enough options for a solid army in a single book, and more so than Adeptus Titanicus which only offers two Legios to pick from and no Houses at all. LI's core book feels very generous in comparison, and probably the only book a player will need. Most other GW games require at least two expensive books just to get started...
My only gripe with this is not being able to take both Marine and Solar formations for the primary part of an army; it has to be one or the other. The "Legion Astranii Class Augmented Spearhead" formation feels like what a real Epic army should be; a gathering of forces into a single grand army. The contents of the box set looks like a complete force, whereas the box set for AT can be played as a single force. An army in Horus Heresy should be whether it's Loyalist or Traitor, not bluntly Marines vs Solar. A 28mm battle is different as a single formation would be the entire army for Horus Heresy.
But the core rulebook only contains, what, a third or so of what we already know is coming out?
I hope I'm wrong, but I'm going to guess that we're probably going to accumulate and additional 2 or 3 campaign books that you need to have to get rules to play one army.
SamusDrake wrote: I don't think its much as an issue with Legions Imperialis as the core book contains enough options for a solid army in a single book, and more so than Adeptus Titanicus which only offers two Legios to pick from and no Houses at all. LI's core book feels very generous in comparison, and probably the only book a player will need. Most other GW games require at least two expensive books just to get started..
Dunno... Epic without even artillery doesn't feel like a "solid army" to me.
SamusDrake wrote: I don't think its much as an issue with Legions Imperialis as the core book contains enough options for a solid army in a single book, and more so than Adeptus Titanicus which only offers two Legios to pick from and no Houses at all. LI's core book feels very generous in comparison, and probably the only book a player will need. Most other GW games require at least two expensive books just to get started..
Dunno... Epic without even artillery doesn't feel like a "solid army" to me.
Without denying anyone's personal feelings on the matter, I haven't kept too much up to date on this, but interested to understand if the air asset and titan support capabilities cover the niche of missing artillery?
Are there any other bits of what we would consider full combined arms missing?
In terms of what has rules but no models, both sides do have artillery in the form of rapiers but no plastics yet. So some there is some artillery but not much.
The titans are mostly long range fire support platforms, as knights sort of steal their thunder a bit in terms of closer fighting, but it's more an issue that there are slots for artillery in formations that neither side are able to fill. Questoris knights can take rocket pods as an upgrade which function ok as artillery, not quite the same as big big units of massed artillery however.
New book previewed basilisks and medusas as artillery for solar aux, 8 to a box.
My only gripe with this is not being able to take both Marine and Solar formations for the primary part of an army; it has to be one or the other. The "Legion Astranii Class Augmented Spearhead" formation feels like what a real Epic army should be; a gathering of forces into a single grand army. The contents of the box set looks like a complete force, whereas the box set for AT can be played as a single force. An army in Horus Heresy should be whether it's Loyalist or Traitor, not bluntly Marines vs Solar. A 28mm battle is different as a single formation would be the entire army for Horus Heresy.
The game is a bit too permissive in army construction as it is IMO, especially with space marines and legal armies that resemble boxes of crayons. The 30% allies works well enough to mix solar aux and marines imo, it's the unlimited legion stuff for marines that I feel needs limitng and perhaps should b one primary legon and burning 30% allies to take a second legion.
A concern for the great slaughter is a similar merry-go-round to the current rulebook, we get units to finally complete formations in the current book, but the formations introduced by the new book may suffer similar problems of slots not having unit available yet/ waiting for next book yet again for key units.
But the core rulebook only contains, what, a third or so of what we already know is coming out?
I hope I'm wrong, but I'm going to guess that we're probably going to accumulate and additional 2 or 3 campaign books that you need to have to get rules to play one army.
Been through the book and it covers enough units - for both Marines and Solar - to build a solid army. Infantry, transports, tanks and aircraft. On top of that you get rules for Titan and Knight allies. £37.50 and you're done, unless you really want to take it further.
One side doesn't even have a single ground transport, one of the single most highly awaited models is the dracosan they previewed. It's also significant in that it can seemingly sacrifice half it transport capacity to take a demolisher cannon which certainly has my attention. I'd feel a lot more complete with the rules for it.
Crablezworth wrote: The game is a bit too permissive in army construction as it is IMO, especially with space marines and legal armies that resemble boxes of crayons.
An allied Acastus Knight ain't no artillery ^^. And artillery was a single example. There's a lot more lacking. Transports for Auxilia, melon-fething Land Raiders, Drop Pods (and if there's something that says more "GW Space Marines" than drop pods, I'm not sure what it is, Land Speeders, bikes, scouts.... many mainstays of what makes "40k" armies what they are are currently a no-show.
It does feel very empty, for the most part, to me.
Can you sort-of-but-not-quite substitute with other stuff? Well, yeah. Of course. But that des not mean there is not a truckload of stuff that should be there and ain't.
Crablezworth wrote: The game is a bit too permissive in army construction as it is IMO, especially with space marines and legal armies that resemble boxes of crayons.
I'm sorry... what?
I think he means that it's possible to have different formations be different Legions but still be one 'Space Marine' faction. Personally I like the 'multi-force' nature of it, that's how I've always played epic (but then we played really big games).
Crablezworth wrote: One side doesn't even have a single ground transport, one of the single most highly awaited models is the dracosan they previewed. It's also significant in that it can seemingly sacrifice half it transport capacity to take a demolisher cannon which certainly has my attention. I'd feel a lot more complete with the rules for it.
The Arvus Lighter is pretty much the Solar answer to the Rhino, and why they're releasing a similar pack of 8 aircraft.
An allied Acastus Knight ain't no artillery ^^. And artillery was a single example. There's a lot more lacking. Transports for Auxilia, melon-fething Land Raiders, Drop Pods (and if there's something that says more "GW Space Marines" than drop pods, I'm not sure what it is, Land Speeders, bikes, scouts.... many mainstays of what makes "40k" armies what they are are currently a no-show.
It does feel very empty, for the most part, to me.
Can you sort-of-but-not-quite substitute with other stuff? Well, yeah. Of course. But that des not mean there is not a truckload of stuff that should be there and ain't.
Sorry, but an Acastus isn't artiliary? Quite literally a heavily armoured Howls Moving Castle with two large cannons strapped on either arm, designed for ranged mass-destruction, signed up for the lead role in the remake of The Guns of Navarone, and you say...
"ain't no artillery"?
...its bad enough not having a faction to play in this crappy game but now I have to take these insults as well?
Crablezworth wrote: One side doesn't even have a single ground transport, one of the single most highly awaited models is the dracosan they previewed. It's also significant in that it can seemingly sacrifice half it transport capacity to take a demolisher cannon which certainly has my attention. I'd feel a lot more complete with the rules for it.
The Arvus Lighter is pretty much the Solar answer to the Rhino, and why they're releasing a similar pack of 8 aircraft.
An allied Acastus Knight ain't no artillery ^^. And artillery was a single example. There's a lot more lacking. Transports for Auxilia, melon-fething Land Raiders, Drop Pods (and if there's something that says more "GW Space Marines" than drop pods, I'm not sure what it is, Land Speeders, bikes, scouts.... many mainstays of what makes "40k" armies what they are are currently a no-show.
It does feel very empty, for the most part, to me.
Can you sort-of-but-not-quite substitute with other stuff? Well, yeah. Of course. But that des not mean there is not a truckload of stuff that should be there and ain't.
Sorry, but an Acastus isn't artiliary? Quite literally a heavily armoured Howls Moving Castle with two large cannons strapped on either arm, designed for ranged mass-destruction, signed up for the lead role in the remake of The Guns of Navarone, and you say...
"ain't no artillery"?
...its bad enough not having a faction to play in this crappy game but now I have to take these insults as well?
I guess I'll buy some arvus's then... oh wait
And artillery refers to the ability to target units out of los, at least how I'd be using the term and largely how the game seemingly will re basilisks ect.
Crablezworth wrote: The game is a bit too permissive in army construction as it is IMO, especially with space marines and legal armies that resemble boxes of crayons.
I'm sorry... what?
I think he means that it's possible to have different formations be different Legions but still be one 'Space Marine' faction. Personally I like the 'multi-force' nature of it, that's how I've always played epic (but then we played really big games).
Correct, and my concern isn't really with interesting fluffy large armies, it's facing like 5 legions at 2k, you can do cynically small detachments to take advantage of each given legion rule, and it gets a bit cynical, fast. I love the idea of multiple legions fighting, but in larger multi person games imo, as it stands the current army construction is very very permissive in addition to unlimited formations/legions.
SamusDrake wrote: Sorry, but an Acastus isn't artiliary? Quite literally a heavily armoured Howls Moving Castle with two large cannons strapped on either arm, designed for ranged mass-destruction, signed up for the lead role in the remake of The Guns of Navarone, and you say...
"ain't no artillery"?
...its bad enough not having a faction to play in this crappy game but now I have to take these insults as well?
Don't delude yourself. You know it ain't artillery if you need to see what you're shooting at
And artillery refers to the ability to target units out of los, at least how I'd be using the term and largely how the game seemingly will re basilisks ect.
Just put some plastercine balls on the end of cocktail sticks and be patient.
Well, thats GW quality playtesting for you and probably fixed in an FAQ shortly. Or most likely banned, and Albertorius will be mocking me "sorry, you were saying?"
And artillery refers to the ability to target units out of los, at least how I'd be using the term and largely how the game seemingly will re basilisks ect.
Just put some plastercine balls on the end of cocktail sticks and be patient.
Well, thats GW quality playtesting for you and probably fixed in an FAQ shortly. Or most likely banned, and Albertorius will be mocking me "sorry, you were saying?"
Nah man, just good natured ribbing a bit ^^. It's all good, I hope you're not taking it personally, and if you are know that it was not the intention and I'm sorry.
Nah man, just good natured ribbing a bit ^^. It's all good, I hope you're not taking it personally, and if you are know that it was not the intention and I'm sorry.
Sorry, its just that I'm having a hard time dealing with Knights not being allowed their own army. Years of waiting for a superior ruleset and GW takes a crap on my head like a spiteful pidgeon waiting for the precise moment to strike...
...urgh. Well I guess you've all helped me get that off my chest, and should really be thanking you.
I'm teaching Epic 40k this weekend. We're playing Gogard's Last Stand and The Sulphur River Refights, which have a good spread of rules.
I thought that said 'Grognard's last stand' then, which is basically me in this thread and others over the past decade trying to get people to try old Epic
But the core rulebook only contains, what, a third or so of what we already know is coming out?
I hope I'm wrong, but I'm going to guess that we're probably going to accumulate and additional 2 or 3 campaign books that you need to have to get rules to play one army.
Been through the book and it covers enough units - for both Marines and Solar - to build a solid army.
Depends how you define "solid army" I guess.
Lacking land speeders, bikes, land raiders, spartans, whirlwinds, drop pods, vindicators, predator and sicaran variants, basilisks, mastodons, marine baneblades all makes it feel, well, "lacking" I guess.
And those are going to come out across, what, 2 campaign books? 3 campaign books?
Then those campaign books will probably come with their own special rules and maybe tweaks to the core game.
This could very easily turn into a game where you need a librarian's assistance and a trolley full of books to play.
And it will end up with compendiums in about two years time, and probably an upset designer whos left the company, telling us what the game was originally intended to be...
SamusDrake wrote: And it will end up with compendiums in about two years time, and probably an upset designer whos left the company, telling us what the game was originally intended to be...
I'm not sure which game you're referencing? Maybe it does end up in a nice neat compendium, maybe it doesn't, we'll have to wait and see. From what I understand, Necromunda is still a pain (I don't collect it though, so correct me if I'm wrong). AI never got a proper compendium, just the HH book which knowing what we know now was probably part of the plan to kill Xenos and move Epic scale stuff to HH.
GW doesn't seem to mind making rules for their games a pain in the arse for customers to figure out what they need and making it cost a fortune to get all the rules you'll likely want.
SamusDrake wrote: And it will end up with compendiums in about two years time, and probably an upset designer whos left the company, telling us what the game was originally intended to be...
I'm not sure which game you're referencing? Maybe it does end up in a nice neat compendium, maybe it doesn't, we'll have to wait and see. From what I understand, Necromunda is still a pain (I don't collect it though, so correct me if I'm wrong). AI never got a proper compendium, just the HH book which knowing what we know now was probably part of the plan to kill Xenos and move Epic scale stuff to HH.
GW doesn't seem to mind making rules for their games a pain in the arse for customers to figure out what they need and making it cost a fortune to get all the rules you'll likely want.
He's referring to Adeptus Titanicus whose original designer, James Hewitt, left GW after disputes over compensation IIRC; despite designing many of their better-regarded games, he was reportedly making 20k annually compared to 30k for some others on the team (which he does point out were more senior) but perhaps more saliently 6k less than the person hired to eventually replace him. He did a Reddit AMA as I recall where he went into how AT was designed and that it had included some mechanisms for tanks and infantry, but that those really hadn't gone much further than the groundwork.
Obviously, LI is it's own game and not a bolt-on to AT so GW opted not to leverage that design space.
the dispute was that he applied for an internal position that was better paid and the leader of his department intervened so that he did not get it and also refused to raise his wages to the same level (with something that he is too important to switch departments but the department not making enough profit to justify him getting paid the same)
but could also be a reference to Necromunda, were the original game planned was split into 2 books as the management felt that having rules for 3D terrain is not appropriate if the initial box does not come with one
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AllSeeingSkink wrote: GW doesn't seem to mind making rules for their games a pain in the arse for customers to figure out what they need and making it cost a fortune to get all the rules you'll likely want.
GW makes the rules in the way they think it makes them the most profit
and their yearly report shows that it works is no matter how much of pain their rules are and how badly written they are, people buy them
Crablezworth wrote: The game is a bit too permissive in army construction as it is IMO, especially with space marines and legal armies that resemble boxes of crayons.
I'm sorry... what?
I think he means that it's possible to have different formations be different Legions but still be one 'Space Marine' faction. Personally I like the 'multi-force' nature of it, that's how I've always played epic (but then we played really big games).
It's the complete lack of limitations that I take issue with. As stated earlier, the game is too permissive in army building already, there aren't any limits on formations. To make my point, you could have an army with like 18 different formations and 18 sets of legion special rules and and it would not only be legal, it wouldn't even break 3k. Now there isn't quite any reason or incentive for one to go that far, but it is possible. The more likely reality is cynical stuff like taking a minimum detachment of emperor's children to get a once per game auto win on imitative roll. White scars detachment so air force benefits from better jink save, ect. I feel like players are on a spectrum of what is reasonable to include within a given point level, if I'm playing a 1500pts game, is it at all fair to think 5 legions is a bit much at that point level? And in that case it may not even be trying to max rules, it could be for fluff or any reason, still looks awful and like a box of crayons/power rangers sorta vibe. I get marine fought each other and along side one another, but after a few legions it just starts to blur. I'd think the same of someone painting their solar aux formations by drastically different colour schemes to excess.
Players also hope for legion specific units in future books, that given the current army construction rules complete lack of containment seems doubtful, especially if solar aux in future books doesn't get any sub factions in the way marines do.
Side note on the delay, I've seen one store owner mention that in discussion with his gw account guy, the account guy did mention the red sea in relation to the delay in releases. No specifics past that, as far as I know march 2nd is still the current rumour.
I hope Solar get more Velatarii with volkite chargers, they are printed on the box and two per sprue are ridicolous as number. And Auxilia with rotor cannon.
Side note on the delay, I've seen one store owner mention that in discussion with his gw account guy, the account guy did mention the red sea in relation to the delay in releases. No specifics past that, as far as I know march 2nd is still the current rumour.
Starter set is made and printed in the UK, maybe further stuff come from far away?
I'm not sure which game you're referencing? Maybe it does end up in a nice neat compendium, maybe it doesn't, we'll have to wait and see. From what I understand, Necromunda is still a pain (I don't collect it though, so correct me if I'm wrong). AI never got a proper compendium, just the HH book which knowing what we know now was probably part of the plan to kill Xenos and move Epic scale stuff to HH.
GW doesn't seem to mind making rules for their games a pain in the arse for customers to figure out what they need and making it cost a fortune to get all the rules you'll likely want.
Adeptus Titanicus. They're taking the same approach with Legions in that the core book gets you up and running with a legal army, but following supplements will provide new options to spice things up. Its also similar in that whatever content they release in any of the supplements, you'll be able to use it in your marine or solar army, thanks to the 30% ally budget.
Eventually, there will be so many of these supplements( and White Dwarf articles ) that they'll need to recompile them into fewer, thicker books.
I personally prefer the earlier approach as I'm not interested in any supplement unless it significantly adds to the game. If I were buying into Legions( not for the time being, but you never know ), then I'd probably leave it at the core book.
He's referring to Adeptus Titanicus whose original designer, James Hewitt, left GW after disputes over compensation IIRC; despite designing many of their better-regarded games, he was reportedly making 20k annually compared to 30k for some others on the team (which he does point out were more senior) but perhaps more saliently 6k less than the person hired to eventually replace him. He did a Reddit AMA as I recall where he went into how AT was designed and that it had included some mechanisms for tanks and infantry, but that those really hadn't gone much further than the groundwork.
Obviously, LI is it's own game and not a bolt-on to AT so GW opted not to leverage that design space.
Also that James had pretty much designed AT as a titan combat simulator, and GW duct-taped Knight banners on to it.
When going through the Legions Imperialis rules, I get the impression that GW had changed intentions for army composition at some point in it's development. Its like they want us to embrace multiple Imperial factions as one large army( each having it's part to play ), but end up falling back to Heresy's approach of one primary faction with a little support from allies, probably for cross campaigns with that game.
The Solar & Marine formation feels like GW want us to play with Marine & Solar primary forces but have cold feet about it. Yet as Crablezworth says, they have this combo-chain of multiple Marine Chapter bonuses which seems far worse a crime than allowing marine and solar formations as part of a primary force.
The one first one they had to replace was china I believe, reason they printed the new book in uk was likely to get it out before the end of the year.
Stuff like the ruins terrain boxes I believe are mostly china, for example. It's also possible stuff like boxes/packaging is made in china even for domestically produced kits. Could LI kits for wave 2 sitting waiting for boxing material to come from china perhaps.
The one first one they had to replace was china I believe, reason they printed the new book in uk was likely to get it out before the end of the year.
Stuff like the ruins terrain boxes I believe are mostly china, for example. It's also possible stuff like boxes/packaging is made in china even for domestically produced kits. Could LI kits for wave 2 sitting waiting for boxing material to come from china perhaps.
Yes, things like boxes and assembly guides can be printed (and presumably usually are, due to cost) but the finished product can still be labelled as "Made in the UK", if packaged there, with UK-produced contents or components, as is the case.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: GW doesn't seem to mind making rules for their games a pain in the arse for customers to figure out what they need and making it cost a fortune to get all the rules you'll likely want.
GW makes the rules in the way they think it makes them the most profit
and their yearly report shows that it works is no matter how much of pain their rules are and how badly written they are, people buy them
Do they give numbers on their sales of rules? And any numbers that suggest they've found peak rules sales?
I'm not going to argue GW don't make money hand over fist, obviously they do, but I also think Necromunda could be more popular without having to waste so much time figuring out what book you need to buy, and while it wasn't the only problem with Aeronautica I think there was definitely a negative impact that you couldn't just point to one book and say "that one, that's the one you want to buy".
I'm not sure which game you're referencing? Maybe it does end up in a nice neat compendium, maybe it doesn't, we'll have to wait and see. From what I understand, Necromunda is still a pain (I don't collect it though, so correct me if I'm wrong). AI never got a proper compendium, just the HH book which knowing what we know now was probably part of the plan to kill Xenos and move Epic scale stuff to HH.
GW doesn't seem to mind making rules for their games a pain in the arse for customers to figure out what they need and making it cost a fortune to get all the rules you'll likely want.
Adeptus Titanicus.
Okay, even though I own some AT stuff I've never actually played it or got into the rules, I glanced through the rulebook and didn't really like the rules.
They're taking the same approach with Legions in that the core book gets you up and running with a legal army, but following supplements will provide new options to spice things up. Its also similar in that whatever content they release in any of the supplements, you'll be able to use it in your marine or solar army, thanks to the 30% ally budget.
Eventually, there will be so many of these supplements( and White Dwarf articles ) that they'll need to recompile them into fewer, thicker books.
I personally prefer the earlier approach as I'm not interested in any supplement unless it significantly adds to the game. If I were buying into Legions( not for the time being, but you never know ), then I'd probably leave it at the core book.
Given it's GW, I'm going to guess the compendiums pull together stuff that gets released in white dwarfs or online articles, but stuff that comes out in campaign books will remain in those campaign books. At least that's the worst case (but I think still likely) scenario so that in a few years we end up with a core book with some rules, a few campaign books with a few rules, and a companion or compendium with a few rules.
If I were buying into Legions( not for the time being, but you never know ), then I'd probably leave it at the core book.
If that's what you want to do, but I think the core book is overly limiting.
I did buy the starter set, but as time goes on I think I'm more likely to stick to older or fan editions of the game, so if I don't buy the campaign books it's probably because I'm not playing it rather than because I'm satisfied with an army made from the selection of troops offered in the core book (no fast attack, no artillery troops/tanks).
Yeah, and the binding on mine reminds me of the binding of UK-printed GW books from days long ago, lol. It creaks and feels...loose?...already and I've barely read it. And I'm careful with new hardcovers.
My understanding is that so much of the printing market is in China/Overseas that the UK really doesn't have the infrastructure/skillset any more. At least outside of likely luxury/limited production type deals that are likely way more expensive than GW wants to spend on for their style of product.
I seem to recall that and sourcing raw materials are a reason GW has never bought their own printing press machinery to bring that in house
Yes. Reread what I wrote. Note how I said originally. Remember the delay from original launch day? That was due to gw reprinting rulebook. We have seen cover of original rulebook and apart from front looking different it had printed in china.
Doing another print run at china would have taken longer(what with boats being slow) or cost lot more via air transport so gw went for uk for new print run. Presumably they prefered shorter delay at expense of cost.
The Ruins Set has a Sticker with "Made in China" on it. Under the Sticker, they printed "Made in the UK" on the Box.
Hm.....
I have three Rulebooks from three Core Sets, one of them has a different binding Quality. That Book (from the first release run) has binding issues and starts to fall apart while the other two (from the first restock) have a clearly higher production quality. All three of them are printed in the UK.
So either one is a dud (it can happen), or the printing press made two runs of different qualities (quite unlikely), or GW sent print orders to multiple printing presses, probably due to time constraints, I would guess.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Okay, even though I own some AT stuff I've never actually played it or got into the rules, I glanced through the rulebook and didn't really like the rules.
AT certainly wasn't the game I was hoping for, nor expecting it to be, but having accepted it for what it really is - a titan combat simulator - there is a lot of comical fun to be enjoyed. It at least deserves a shot, I'll give it that.
I think sticking with Net-Epic would be a good idea, as Legions has only just been released and suffering serious problems with balance. As much as I'm of the opinion that the core book has enough options to build an army, the quality of the rules is another matter altogether and there will be tantrums at the tournament tables. And that's another reason to recommend Titanicus; it was tournament-ready from the start.
Yes. Reread what I wrote. Note how I said originally. Remember the delay from original launch day? That was due to gw reprinting rulebook. We have seen cover of original rulebook and apart from front looking different it had printed in china.
Doing another print run at china would have taken longer(what with boats being slow) or cost lot more via air transport so gw went for uk for new print run. Presumably they prefered shorter delay at expense of cost.
Thanks for the clear explanation, I tought specialist games books came from the Uk and big games did not. In my ignorance - it's my fault, I read this topic just sometimes and I've lost some important facts - I'm lucky to get an Uk print that is not going to destroy itself
Overread wrote: My understanding is that so much of the printing market is in China/Overseas that the UK really doesn't have the infrastructure/skillset any more. At least outside of likely luxury/limited production type deals that are likely way more expensive than GW wants to spend on for their style of product.
I seem to recall that and sourcing raw materials are a reason GW has never bought their own printing press machinery to bring that in house
UK printers are just as capable - but it's cheaper to do it in China or eastern Europe, even with the extra transport.
We can talk about the delay of The Great Slaughter being because of printers in China or whatever but the fact is that we are still waiting for a massive chunk of the stuff in the core rule book to either be released, rereleased in the new packaging, or to be released outside of the main box. This entire release so far has been an unmitigated disaster from the word go and there seems to be little evidence that it is going to change anytime soon.
Considering Element Games are listing a restock of a lot of Old World stuff next weekend, I think that's also contributed to the slowdown which GW perhaps didn't fully plan on. I suspect that's also why this coming weekend we are only seeing books and one model and nothing else being released.
ccnick22 wrote: We can talk about the delay of The Great Slaughter being because of printers in China or whatever but the fact is that we are still waiting for a massive chunk of the stuff in the core rule book to either be released, rereleased in the new packaging, or to be released outside of the main box. This entire release so far has been an unmitigated disaster from the word go and there seems to be little evidence that it is going to change anytime soon.
I agree with the part about the missing stuff from the core book. In particular, the fact that the workhorse combat tanks are only available in the very expensive starter is a big problem. It's hard to tell potential players to jump into the game when even the battle tanks are very limited in availability.
On the other hand, I expect that we'll start seeing more figures rapidly being released. And as they get released, the complaints about this particular issue will vanish.
ccnick22 wrote: We can talk about the delay of The Great Slaughter being because of printers in China or whatever but the fact is that we are still waiting for a massive chunk of the stuff in the core rule book to either be released, rereleased in the new packaging, or to be released outside of the main box. This entire release so far has been an unmitigated disaster from the word go and there seems to be little evidence that it is going to change anytime soon.
I agree with the part about the missing stuff from the core book. In particular, the fact that the workhorse combat tanks are only available in the very expensive starter is a big problem. It's hard to tell potential players to jump into the game when even the battle tanks are very limited in availability.
On the other hand, I expect that we'll start seeing more figures rapidly being released. And as they get released, the complaints about this particular issue will vanish.
So would you say that... the models come sooner than you think? Maybe GW should have used that line in their marketing.
We have a rumor, so it's reasonable to believe it won't be long for further releases. However it's good to remember that Specialist Games don't really get rapid releases even when they're not troubled by delays like Tiny Heresy. Embiggened Heresy is the one outlier, but even there it took them a year and a half just to release assault Marines.
It's best to make your peace with a slow pace release plan, in my opinion. This game will be in an incomplete state for a good while still.
Well we know we should have had them by this weekend without some hickup(possibly related to red sea events and you can hardly blame GW for that if that's the case). So no we don't have to wait for long now.
I'm still waiting for Thunderhawks and Xiphons coming back in stock. GW is seriously struggling with their stock levels. Hell, I cant even buy LI bases for my Reivers I got in the AT18 starter at the moment (and no, LI bases are not included in the current AT18 starter)
tauist wrote: I'm still waiting for Thunderhawks and Xiphons coming back in stock. GW is seriously struggling with their stock levels. Hell, I cant even buy LI bases for my Reivers I got in the AT18 starter at the moment (and no, LI bases are not included in the current AT18 starter)
Cheers for that, as I was worried the starter had been repackaged. I'd prefer to keep things consistent with my AT collection.
I've noticed a few of the retailers (Firestorm Games was one) have a new stock of the core game, Rhinos, Solar Infantry and that's it so that range must have come in on a pallet.
I guess you could get multiples of the core box again (which can be had for around £100) but that would not make sense if you don't collect both marines and solar, and then you would have another copy of that God-awful rulebook which you will probably end up paying to have someone take off your hands!
tneva82 wrote: Well we know we should have had them by this weekend without some hickup(possibly related to red sea events and you can hardly blame GW for that if that's the case). So no we don't have to wait for long now.
We would have had something. But aside from the new book, we don't know what else. For all we know, the release could have been the new book and the landspeeder box, and nothing else.
We don't know when the individual products will be released.
Pacific wrote: ...and then you would have another copy of that God-awful rulebook which you will probably end up paying to have someone take off your hands!
I'm morbidly curious - what's your problem with the rulebook?
Just got notice that my FLGS got my rhinos in today. Still waiting on my Baneblades and Kratos tanks. This is from my order when the game was released. Sigh. GW is killing me with the lack of product and releases.
Pacific wrote: ...and then you would have another copy of that God-awful rulebook which you will probably end up paying to have someone take off your hands!
I'm morbidly curious - what's your problem with the rulebook?
Between long-winded explainations and points values that are way out, it gives the impression that it was released before it was ready to be signed off.
I wouldn't say it was god-awful though, and wouldn't say no to an unwanted copy going for something like £25. Unlike GW's other shameless money-milking exercises, its nice to have a game that only requires one book to get up and running.
Not if I should take the announcement about organized play for LI at "certain events" on the US circuit as a positive or a negative. They say "events", so meaning more than one, but I would be shocked if LI is included in the schedule for the Dallas event in May. Feels like they threw mention of LI in as a way of encouraging people to stay invested or keep some interest going, but it also seems to come across as they are admitting that their ability to even support the game at GW events alongside the their other systems is severely constrained due to the ongoing release and supply issues. Thoughts? Has there been any LI events announced in the UK yet?
Muster a 1,500-point army filled with infantry, heavy armour, flyers, and god-engines for three games of Legions Imperialis in one day at this snappy weekday Warhammer event.
Muster a 1,500-point army filled with infantry, heavy armour, flyers, and god-engines for three games of Legions Imperialis in one day at this snappy weekday Warhammer event.
...and not 3000 points.
If you look up the suggested point size from space marine 2nd edition, it's also 1500pts. That's actually the sad reality of the game as it is currently, it seemingly plays better at 1500, 3000 is impossible with all the stilly crap they added about tracking formations and add to that endless overwatch everywhere turns the movement phase into an early shooting phase wayyyyyy to much. A 3000pt tournament is impossible, you'd need like 5 hour rounds.
That's also why I'm praying they lock overwatch behind first fire for non point defense. Allowing overwatch on advance order in an alternating activation game has shown to be a bridge too far.
Muster a 1,500-point army filled with infantry, heavy armour, flyers, and god-engines for three games of Legions Imperialis in one day at this snappy weekday Warhammer event.
...and not 3000 points.
With the units currently available, a 3,000 point list is going to be repetitive in the extreme.
Soon as the next couple of waves are out, we’ll have a wider choice of commercially available models to craft lists with.
Muster a 1,500-point army filled with infantry, heavy armour, flyers, and god-engines for three games of Legions Imperialis in one day at this snappy weekday Warhammer event.
...and not 3000 points.
The sad thing to me is that they are only listing things we have now. Infantry, heave armor, flyers, and titans. No vanguard or battle tanks. I fear this means they expect events to only use the boxed sets currently available, which are those items. :(. This could be such a great game but they are strangling it in the crib.
That's also why I'm praying they lock overwatch behind first fire for non point defense. Allowing overwatch on advance order in an alternating activation game has shown to be a bridge too far.
I don’t always agree with things you say, but I must admit this one I fully agree on and was surprised. I figured first fire would be the only way to do non point defense over watch. It really seems like that would still be a good idea to help further differentiate between advance and first fire. Maybe further playing will bear out the RAW but it does seem odd.
Pacific wrote: ...and then you would have another copy of that God-awful rulebook which you will probably end up paying to have someone take off your hands!
I'm morbidly curious - what's your problem with the rulebook?
Between long-winded explainations and points values that are way out, it gives the impression that it was released before it was ready to be signed off.
I wouldn't say it was god-awful though, and wouldn't say no to an unwanted copy going for something like £25. Unlike GW's other shameless money-milking exercises, its nice to have a game that only requires one book to get up and running.
Yes that's it really. In my thirty years of being in the hobby I will say the Legions rulebook is possibly the worst one by GW that I have ever encountered. Aside from it being written like the legal text included with a pack of laxative tablets (although interestingly, the text has the opposite effect) my main criticism is the style of the book; the lack of any colour or artwork beyond photoshopped miniatures, it is just incredibly dull. The background bits being just pasted into blocks, the layout is appalling (big empty half pages - perhaps where the artwork should have gone!) I *love* Epic, and have done so since I was 12 years old, GW have one of the most evocative settings here with literally tons of artwork available, and I had to force my way through it in chunks, in between cups of strong coffee. It does absolutely nothing to fire the imagination or make me want me to play the game, and so in my mind that is such a wasted opportunity.
Pacific wrote: So the points values confirm what we knew about the scale of the game in terms of what tournament organisers will do with it.
Apart from not many units available making big armies impractical atm what it shows?
Hard to get 2k without infantry spam let alone 3k.
Now not the time for big tournaments if you want players. Not many have even 2k armies yet...
agreed here, if they set this at 3k, with a ban on 3d printed models it would be a ghost town, no one locally can play it at that size without some alternative models except for one guy who had a lot of AI and adds a warlord, that invariably dies on the first turn
1500 points game size doesn't surprise me. It was obvious from the first few batrep videos out there that this would kind of be a sweet spot for many games IMHO
Besides, 3000 points on that table size starts looking way too much like a typical 40K "parking lot" game
I think 3k needs some coordination between players to avoid it looking daft, e.g. unless you are bringing a large titan or a couple of smaller ones scale it down to avoid parking lot.
likewise have some self restraint on spamming lots of cheaper units
it may well change when we have more toys, but given at present most will be on the table turn one totally agree on parking lots
Yes that's it really. In my thirty years of being in the hobby I will say the Legions rulebook is possibly the worst one by GW that I have ever encountered. Aside from it being written like the legal text included with a pack of laxative tablets (although interestingly, the text has the opposite effect) my main criticism is the style of the book; the lack of any colour or artwork beyond photoshopped miniatures, it is just incredibly dull. The background bits being just pasted into blocks, the layout is appalling (big empty half pages - perhaps where the artwork should have gone!) I *love* Epic, and have done so since I was 12 years old, GW have one of the most evocative settings here with literally tons of artwork available, and I had to force my way through it in chunks, in between cups of strong coffee. It does absolutely nothing to fire the imagination or make me want me to play the game, and so in my mind that is such a wasted opportunity.
I could have written that myself. The worst I've seen in decades. But what is sad is the wasted chance to bring back one of the best games ever (Epic in general).
tauist wrote: 1500 points game size doesn't surprise me. It was obvious from the first few batrep videos out there that this would kind of be a sweet spot for many games IMHO
Besides, 3000 points on that table size starts looking way too much like a typical 40K "parking lot" game
Not really. It might seem sweet spot now because people are learning but the game is pretty damn fast and we have got just the cheap stuff now.
Add in land raiders, spartans etc that will be costing like 300 for 4 etc and boards will look very sparse.
This is epic. You are supposed to have more models than in 40k.
And beside doesn't really matter in model placement. Tanks will be touching each other whether you play 500 pts game or 50000 pts game.
Pacific wrote: So the points values confirm what we knew about the scale of the game in terms of what tournament organisers will do with it.
Apart from not many units available making big armies impractical atm what it shows?
Hard to get 2k without infantry spam let alone 3k.
Now not the time for big tournaments if you want players. Not many have even 2k armies yet...
Quite the opposite.
Infantry is cheap. I’ve all but maxed out a Demi-Company’s infantry options (I can include two more stands of Terminators and Assault Marines), and without their Rhino transports, that comes to 546 points.
There are still slots open to me (Bastion, Air Support/Light Armour, Vanguard, then Artillery/Battle Tank/Heavy Armour). But as for footsloggers? Just those four stands.
That’s the result of 3 boxes worth of Infantry, with two Contemptors left over.
To bulk up your points? It’s tanks you want. Equivalent of four boxes (1 x Predator, 1 x Sicaran, 2 x Kratos) form my Armoured Company, and that’s a hefty 905 points.
tauist wrote: 1500 points game size doesn't surprise me. It was obvious from the first few batrep videos out there that this would kind of be a sweet spot for many games IMHO
Besides, 3000 points on that table size starts looking way too much like a typical 40K "parking lot" game
Not really. It might seem sweet spot now because people are learning but the game is pretty damn fast and we have got just the cheap stuff now.
Add in land raiders, spartans etc that will be costing like 300 for 4 etc and boards will look very sparse.
This is epic. You are supposed to have more models than in 40k.
And beside doesn't really matter in model placement. Tanks will be touching each other whether you play 500 pts game or 50000 pts game.
When I think of an appropriate size for a 40K game, I'm thinking 2nd ed sizes, ie. modern combat patrols worth plus a unit or two on top. For me, casual games of Epic can easily be sized to LI games of 1500pts. But then again, I am a filthy skirmish game fan so YMMV. I just prefer it visually when a tabletop has more space without models on it than with. If the games had sensible movement ranges, it'd even make manouvering mean something again.
TL;DR - I prefer skirmish level games in 28mm, and platoon/demicompany level games in Epic scales
Pacific wrote: ...and then you would have another copy of that God-awful rulebook which you will probably end up paying to have someone take off your hands!
I'm morbidly curious - what's your problem with the rulebook?
Between long-winded explainations and points values that are way out, it gives the impression that it was released before it was ready to be signed off.
I wouldn't say it was god-awful though, and wouldn't say no to an unwanted copy going for something like £25. Unlike GW's other shameless money-milking exercises, its nice to have a game that only requires one book to get up and running.
Yes that's it really. In my thirty years of being in the hobby I will say the Legions rulebook is possibly the worst one by GW that I have ever encountered. Aside from it being written like the legal text included with a pack of laxative tablets (although interestingly, the text has the opposite effect) my main criticism is the style of the book; the lack of any colour or artwork beyond photoshopped miniatures, it is just incredibly dull. The background bits being just pasted into blocks, the layout is appalling (big empty half pages - perhaps where the artwork should have gone!) I *love* Epic, and have done so since I was 12 years old, GW have one of the most evocative settings here with literally tons of artwork available, and I had to force my way through it in chunks, in between cups of strong coffee. It does absolutely nothing to fire the imagination or make me want me to play the game, and so in my mind that is such a wasted opportunity.
What I also miss is more and deeper Lore and Fluff than a short Summary of the great Crusade, the Emperor, the Primarchs and the Heresy. Doesn't feel like a Standalone Game. Then the short Summaries of the Space Marine Legions but nothing for the Solar Auxiliar.
Infantry is cheap. I’ve all but maxed out a Demi-Company’s infantry options (I can include two more stands of Terminators and Assault Marines), and without their Rhino transports, that comes to 546 points.
There are still slots open to me (Bastion, Air Support/Light Armour, Vanguard, then Artillery/Battle Tank/Heavy Armour). But as for footsloggers? Just those four stands.
That’s the result of 3 boxes worth of Infantry, with two Contemptors left over.
To bulk up your points? It’s tanks you want. Equivalent of four boxes (1 x Predator, 1 x Sicaran, 2 x Kratos) form my Armoured Company, and that’s a hefty 905 points.
Ummm...You kind of prove my point?
We don't HAVE much of tanks available. Kratos yes. Baneblade(which you can't even use without russ/malcador's that aren't available).
To get 2k with what we have available RIGHT NOW you either need to buy starter sets a LOT or you need to buy crapload of infantry to get 2000.
Want to bulk to 2000 with russ, predators or sicarans?
Can't do it. We are still waiting for those boxes in case you haven't noticed.
Not everybody has multiple boxes of starter sets or even want to buy seeing you don't really save cash if you can't unload warhounds and rulebook away.
ATM what you can buy is infantry, SA infantry, kratos, some titans. No russ, no predator, no sicaran, no malcador. Can't even field companies of just baneblades.
So basically 2k or 3k would be mainly infantry. And that's...A lot. We are talking easily 150+ infantry stand for 2k. My list is 172 stands and isn't even maximum spam. Can go for more. 3k? Even MORE.
We have no bastions available. No vanquard for marines. No drop pods. No spartans. No land raiders.
Once those come available it's easy to bulk up points with non-infantry. But now is not that day. And that has to factor in with tournament rules. Now tournament organizers would be insane to do 3k tournament because without buying multiple starter sets there's 2 options for that: infantry spam, kratos spam.
edit: 3rd option. MSUSA infantry with aircraft spam.
RazorEdge wrote:
What I also miss is more and deeper Lore and Fluff than a short Summary of the great Crusade, the Emperor, the Primarchs and the Heresy. Doesn't feel like a Standalone Game. Then the short Summaries of the Space Marine Legions but nothing for the Solar Auxiliar.
The Book also has many layout flaws.
Do we really need that though? Is there anybody playing LI that doesn't already have 20 different versions of the Deep Lore of the Horus Heresy and all the Emperor's Legions? I was just as happy that they didn't spend half the book on it.
I agree on the layout flaws though. The ebook layout on Android and Windows is completely borked.
Mr_Rose wrote: Also we’re currently betting that the ship with the books diverted south, around the Cape, specifically to avoid all that.
Further, there’s exactly zero guarantee that the books would be on a British flagged vessel, especially since they’re more expensive to operate.
Ya as far as I know what's what is happening to about 2/3 of the ships that usually going through suez and not around africa. But the rumour is still march 2nd, haven't heard any changes to the rumour.
Was there not mention in one of the warcom articles that forge world would be making bases for flyers? I've been trying to find it but haven't had any luck, wondering if it was something from twitter way back.
In other news I've sent GW an email regarding the lack of Knights as a primary force in the core book, and proposed a rough outline of a special pdf formation for publishing on WarCom.
Not expecting much but they did respond to a similar request for AT, when they allowed the Senechal's banner to take Acastus Knights in a later FAQ. If they meet me half-way again then I'll give Legions another thought.
Infantry is cheap. I’ve all but maxed out a Demi-Company’s infantry options (I can include two more stands of Terminators and Assault Marines), and without their Rhino transports, that comes to 546 points.
There are still slots open to me (Bastion, Air Support/Light Armour, Vanguard, then Artillery/Battle Tank/Heavy Armour). But as for footsloggers? Just those four stands.
That’s the result of 3 boxes worth of Infantry, with two Contemptors left over.
To bulk up your points? It’s tanks you want. Equivalent of four boxes (1 x Predator, 1 x Sicaran, 2 x Kratos) form my Armoured Company, and that’s a hefty 905 points.
Ummm...You kind of prove my point?
We don't HAVE much of tanks available. Kratos yes. Baneblade(which you can't even use without russ/malcador's that aren't available).
To get 2k with what we have available RIGHT NOW you either need to buy starter sets a LOT or you need to buy crapload of infantry to get 2000.
Want to bulk to 2000 with russ, predators or sicarans?
Can't do it. We are still waiting for those boxes in case you haven't noticed.
Not everybody has multiple boxes of starter sets or even want to buy seeing you don't really save cash if you can't unload warhounds and rulebook away.
ATM what you can buy is infantry, SA infantry, kratos, some titans. No russ, no predator, no sicaran, no malcador. Can't even field companies of just baneblades.
So basically 2k or 3k would be mainly infantry. And that's...A lot. We are talking easily 150+ infantry stand for 2k. My list is 172 stands and isn't even maximum spam. Can go for more. 3k? Even MORE.
We have no bastions available. No vanquard for marines. No drop pods. No spartans. No land raiders.
Once those come available it's easy to bulk up points with non-infantry. But now is not that day. And that has to factor in with tournament rules. Now tournament organizers would be insane to do 3k tournament because without buying multiple starter sets there's 2 options for that: infantry spam, kratos spam.
edit: 3rd option. MSUSA infantry with aircraft spam.
Oh I can field all the Russ, Malcador, Predator, Sicaran, & Kratos I like. It'll just cost me more $$$ via eBay or such....
Same for aircraft, knights, & some titans.
If I want to field enough of those things right now they're just a few clicks away.
I would expect that when (if I wonder nowadays) we get the mechanicum faction, I expect we will see at least knight and Titan armies with a larger limit of those units without being titandeath from the expansion. You probably still won’t be able to field pure knights, but maybe.
vadersson wrote: I would expect that when (if I wonder nowadays) we get the mechanicum faction, I expect we will see at least knight and Titan armies with a larger limit of those units without being titandeath from the expansion. You probably still won’t be able to field pure knights, but maybe.
Pure knights in AT as their own faction was completely forced in and felt like it, really hoping we don't see that for LI. If it's more akin to mechanicum as a force with new units like the ones from 30k and all manner of tanks and infantry and combined arms fun, great, pure knights would be no fun, really hoping that's not an option in the great slaughter, no offense samus, I'm with you on wanting more mechanicum stuff to go with said knights, but knights as their own faction in 30/40k, incredibly unpleasant to play against IMO, would hope that doesn't come to LI any time soon.
Given the nature of this game, I would hope that a "normal" list that incorporated titans or knights as faction troops would be built around the idea of adding a number of support troops that work in conjunction with the giant war machines. Instead of taking a maniple of two warhounds, two reavers, and a warlord as your formation, you'd pick a titan or knight detachment as your core, and select escort infantry and vehicles to work alongside it.
But the escort troops wouldn't be Astartes or Solar Auxilia. So we'll likely be waiting a while.
- Men-at-Arms Knights Household Infantry
- Men-at-Arms Transporter (doen't need to be the Dracosan, but a light APC-like Tracked Vehicle)
- Men-at-Arms "Demi-Knight" Light Scout Walker
- Men-at-Arms "Demi-Knight" Heavy Support Walker
For the Collecia Titanica, there is this "Mechanicum Escort Infantry" (forgot the Name).
vadersson wrote: I would expect that when (if I wonder nowadays) we get the mechanicum faction, I expect we will see at least knight and Titan armies with a larger limit of those units without being titandeath from the expansion. You probably still won’t be able to field pure knights, but maybe.
Pure knights in AT as their own faction was completely forced in and felt like it, really hoping we don't see that for LI. If it's more akin to mechanicum as a force with new units like the ones from 30k and all manner of tanks and infantry and combined arms fun, great, pure knights would be no fun, really hoping that's not an option in the great slaughter, no offense samus, I'm with you on wanting more mechanicum stuff to go with said knights, but knights as their own faction in 30/40k, incredibly unpleasant to play against IMO, would hope that doesn't come to LI any time soon.
Other versions of Epic have pure Knight forces. Totally normal and fun. What's the problem?
RazorEdge wrote: There was a rumor on Reddit which got deleted; saying that on Sunday, they announce;
- Book
- Some (not all) Missing Units from the Rulebook
Since it wouldn't make sense to split up the two support boxes thats either the planes or the Knights/Titans that aren't coming yet. The Titans would make sense to come with the book so I'll say we will be missing the rest of the aeronautica planes
and that not all Units, with rules in the Expansion get released soon...
Surprising to already see the Arvus here and the fact we get the normal drop pods but not the dreadnought versions makes me think we are getting another preorder not too late after this one. So probably next Saturday with these, a month or so after with a few more like Dreadnought drop pods and maybe Dracosans and SA Artillery and then another one multiple months later with the rest of the stuff in the book.
Pure knights in AT as their own faction was completely forced in and felt like it, really hoping we don't see that for LI. If it's more akin to mechanicum as a force with new units like the ones from 30k and all manner of tanks and infantry and combined arms fun, great, pure knights would be no fun, really hoping that's not an option in the great slaughter, no offense samus, I'm with you on wanting more mechanicum stuff to go with said knights, but knights as their own faction in 30/40k, incredibly unpleasant to play against IMO, would hope that doesn't come to LI any time soon.
Your opinion is respected, being a fellow gentleman and wargamer.
I can accept moving on from the failed experiment that is Adeptus Titanicus, for the reasons we've already discussed in length over the last few years. But if the 28mm Horus Heresy game allows for an all-knight army, then I will not accept any less from the Epic-scale offering, as it's a system far better suited to running Knight armies. Even in Horus Heresy they managed to get it right with at least two Armigers for every Knight taken.
GW didn't need much to win me over as a customer for Legions Imperialis; a copy of the rule book and a box of plastic Armigers. One friggin kit to tap into an existing player base...
Its also silly that in a 40K range that includes Paragon Warsuits and Attilan Rough Riders, that the "Space Bretonnians" codex still includes only three varieties of giant, stompy robots. Again, one friggin kit would make all the difference, but no, its far more important to release a box of Marines armed with T-Shirt launchers...
Not bitter though as Horizon Wars continues to pick up the Epic ball that GW dropped, but I do look forward to the day that GW knocks it out of the park.
Would play the 30% allied Solar Axilliar as Houshold Men-at-Arms.
Here in my City, Legions Imperalis (and HH) seems to run nice. The local Warhammer Store now gets a weekly refill of two Core Sets and two detachment Sets (both with the same Unit). The space for 28mm Horus Heresy Stuff also got doubled.
Finally found a Thunderhawk at an online store! If next week's preorders are happening like the rumours claim they will, I might finally start making slight inroads into collecting an LI army. Drop Pods, Land Speeders and Land Raiders were precis the stuff I was waiting for.
Muster a 1,500-point army filled with infantry, heavy armour, flyers, and god-engines for three games of Legions Imperialis in one day at this snappy weekday Warhammer event.
...and not 3000 points.
If you look up the suggested point size from space marine 2nd edition, it's also 1500pts. That's actually the sad reality of the game as it is currently, it seemingly plays better at 1500, 3000 is impossible with all the stilly crap they added about tracking formations and add to that endless overwatch everywhere turns the movement phase into an early shooting phase wayyyyyy to much. A 3000pt tournament is impossible, you'd need like 5 hour rounds.
That's also why I'm praying they lock overwatch behind first fire for non point defense. Allowing overwatch on advance order in an alternating activation game has shown to be a bridge too far.
Early overwatch is a counter to infantry and flyers and that's it. And frankly infantry is already ridiculous.
Mr_Rose wrote: Also we’re currently betting that the ship with the books diverted south, around the Cape, specifically to avoid all that.
Further, there’s exactly zero guarantee that the books would be on a British flagged vessel, especially since they’re more expensive to operate.
the chance of the ship getting hit even going through the red sea is, frankly, tiny.
And yet news of ship being hit pop up regularly. Unsurprisingly many ship prefer not to take risk when there's people deliberately shooting at cargo ships and ships been provenly hit.
Oh and overwatch takes less time than reqular shooting so more overwatch, less time spent on shooting
Neither ow nor formation tracking been issue here. Guess I'm lucky as finnish schoolsystem teaches all the skills needed to make that easy. As is li is quick enough 3k even now would be usable timewise if one could buy armies. 3k once more point expensive units come will be trivial.
But overwatching isn't overall good idea as you suffer -2 to hit meaning most of the time hitting on 6's. If somebody wants to waste all shooting hitting on 6's feel free. I then shoot without penalties causing much more damage.
It's tool to be used when situation calls. Not something every unit should be doing. It's primarily to give defence vs charging which otherwise would be too easy. Without ow need at least require los to charge
the effective alternative to using overwatch can be as simple as getting somewhere first, occupying it, then using first fire. will shoot before the mobile enemy does anyway and little need for overwatch
plus get to see all movement before deciding, I'd found overwatch can be a bit of a trap, use it sparingly when its the best option but "because I can" is seldom worth it unless you are trying to prove a point I guess
its decent v aircraft as you will likely be hitting on a 6, maybe a 5, anyway so the loss isn't that much
its decent v aircraft as you will likely be hitting on a 6, maybe a 5, anyway so the loss isn't that much
But that's half the problem, advance is a super order because it doesn't have enough downsides, the idea that there is zero difference between a non moving braced vehicles and a tank bumping down a road at full speed shooting at planes is just sorta bad. It's already not ideal that they can even target the planes to begin with, I get why it's allowed from a balance perspective, but it is silly to think 1/6 main battle tank shots hit planes.
Anyway, if they at least had to be on first it'd be another consideration for first fire. Overwatch on advance just makes advance too good.
So the rumours of a preorder where true but the contents where wrong. What is here is pretty nice, though I would have preferred any SA transport instead of the malcador versions.
What I don't like is that we still don't have the tanks from the core set.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Table of contents for the book:
For the 22 cards 10 should be the units in the preorder, another 4 will be the units in the fast attack box, SA are also getting artillery and transport detachments in the book so medusa/basilisk (assuming only one card) and dracosans.
That's 16 cards. Assuming the infernus is a heavy armour and the valdor is a battle tank (infernus is a low in HH while the valdor is not) that would fill all the categories seen here.
That leaves 6 more cards. I also expect all the drop pods versions in here since they got an image in the reveal article which would be another 4 cards which leaves two for the vanguard formation and the drop pod formation known from the WD battlereport. So these should be all the rules we are getting from the book.
So five more boxes (2 droppod versions, fast attack, dracosans, artillery) plus the core box tanks and the missing flyers/titans should be next
Hmm... I was hoping that there would be more, given how much is still missing from the core rulebook.
Assuming that these four are really it, I'm guessing that the following reasoning was used -
The Bastion Detachments are seen as a big gap in the available models right now (both factions have a formation type that requires them), so a priority on getting them out. And you can't justify the release of a new rulebook without at least *some* units from that book (otherwise people won't buy it). So they felt they had to release at least one model from each army from the new book to encourage players to buy it. Having said that, the Malcador Infernus and Valdor Tank Destroyer seem like odd choices. Artillery would have been better, imo. Maybe they wanted to give the SA some Battle Tank options that didn't require multiple core boxes, and they think these are the best (or only) options available? I'm guessing that the Spartan was included so that the Astartes would have an easy way to transport their Terminators.
The only bit of good news on the tank front is that it will be fairly easy for the SA to proxy the new tanks as regular Malcadors.
Given what's missing so far, it still feels too early for the new book. But I'm guessing that they wanted to rush out the lists for Titan Legions and Knight Households.
Prediction - going forward (for the time being), we'll see LI units (not counting the ones from AT and AI) released in groups of four boxes. There will be one box for each faction with figures from the original book, and one box for each faction with units from the new rule book.
Prediction - going forward (for the time being), we'll see LI units (not counting the ones from AT and AI) released in groups of four boxes. There will be one box for each faction with figures from the original book, and one box for each faction with units from the new rule book.
I think if true that may be preferable if it means better supply, I think a giant release they can't even begin to support meaningfully is worse than a smaller one they can hopefully get out without much delay/disruption. It is really weird though in terms of the boxes from the starter like pred/malc/russ/sicaran seemingly not being part of this.
It'll probably end up as coincidence, but both LI and AT's first supplements cover Titandeath. It would be nice if the following book covered Molech...
For the 22 cards 10 should be the units in the preorder, another 4 will be the units in the fast attack box, SA are also getting artillery and transport detachments in the book so medusa/basilisk (assuming only one card) and dracosans.
That's 16 cards. Assuming the infernus is a heavy armour and the valdor is a battle tank (infernus is a low in HH while the valdor is not) that would fill all the categories seen here.
That leaves 6 more cards. I also expect all the drop pods versions in here since they got an image in the reveal article which would be another 4 cards which leaves two for the vanguard formation and the drop pod formation known from the WD battlereport. So these should be all the rules we are getting from the book.
So five more boxes (2 droppod versions, fast attack, dracosans, artillery) plus the core box tanks and the missing flyers/titans should be next
I just went and checked the card packs from the original release, the contents of the support boxes already got their cards in there and each unit got two copies of their card.
So far we've had previewed for the Great Slaughter ( I presume)
Legion Drop Pods
Dreadnaught Drop Pods
Land Raider Proteus
Spartan Assault Tank
Javelin Landspeeders
Proteus Landspeeders
Scimitar Jet Bikes
Outrider Bikes
Medusa/Basilisk Artillery
Dracosan Transport
Malcador Infernus/Valdor
11 units, unless they collapse the Landspeeders and Bikes to a single card while being quite different models. I suppose they could do one copy of each card instead of two, but that would change the previous pattern. To squeeze in some formations, it's possible that a unit like a Land Raider isn't in the Great Slaughter.
Boxes we don't have yet after this preorder are
Predators
Sicarans
Leman Russ
Malcadors
Warbringer Titan
Warmaster Titan
Warmaster Iconclast Titan
Dire Scout Titan
Thunderbolts
Xiphon Interceptors
Fire Raptors
Storm Eagles
Arvus Lighters
Legion Drop Pods
Dreadnaught Drop Pods
Land Raider Proteus
Legion Fast Attack
Medusa/Basilisk Artillery
Dracosan Transport
Bunch of Knight Boxes
Think I'll be buying a single Spartan from ebay before deciding whether or not to splurge on a whole box however.. Why couldn't they release the regular Land Raiders first
Way I see it, an Astartes Det box, Legion Support box, Rhinos & Land Raiders should be the first items to release for the nostalghia hungry 2nd ed Space Marine crowd. Feels weird having to wait for the 'raiders
Could there be an announcement for AT soon? A new book would be a good excuse to release the missing repackaged Titan and Knights kits, as well as the Direwolves and Legio & House bundles, without overwhelming the LI marine and solar release slots...
Cynical me thinks GW wants people to keep buying the starter for the meat & potatoes, and they wont mind postponing releases of the indiv. kits some time still
So good to finally get some new releases, however better order them quick before being out of stock for weeks on end.
Can't see anything there I don't want at least one of and quite a few I'd like multiple boxes of.
Why couldn't they release the regular Land Raiders first
Because Spartans can carry a lot more Terminators than regular Land Raiders can. GW is giving Astartes players a viable option to move a full-sized Terminator detachment.
Why couldn't they release the regular Land Raiders first
Because Spartans can carry a lot more Terminators than regular Land Raiders can. GW is giving Astartes players a viable option to move a full-sized Terminator detachment.
Of course, getting a full sized terminator detachment is pretty hard to get too...
HidaO-Win wrote: I just went and checked the card packs from the original release, the contents of the support boxes already got their cards in there and each unit got two copies of their card.
So far we've had previewed for the Great Slaughter ( I presume)
Legion Drop Pods
Dreadnaught Drop Pods
Land Raider Proteus
Spartan Assault Tank
Javelin Landspeeders
Proteus Landspeeders
Scimitar Jet Bikes
Outrider Bikes
Medusa/Basilisk Artillery
Dracosan Transport
Malcador Infernus/Valdor
11 units, unless they collapse the Landspeeders and Bikes to a single card while being quite different models. I suppose they could do one copy of each card instead of two, but that would change the previous pattern. To squeeze in some formations, it's possible that a unit like a Land Raider isn't in the Great Slaughter.
You are correct, I again forgot that every card is included twice but even then it would need to include the cyclops as that wasn't in the core book which would mean even if you throw out the Proteus and merge the two Drop Pods that would still only leave enough cards for two formations. But due to the WD battlereport we know of a Vanguard formation and a drop pods formation and the SA are also getting at least one according to the ToC so something doesn't fit here.
Also if you compare the image of the stack of cards its obviously thicker than the SM card pack and that one had 46 cards so I don't think the 22 included the double cards (or there aren't any this time). But even then it would only be 44 cards in a bigger stack than the 46 SM cards? So something seems wrong with the 22 written in the article. Maybe 22 new cards but the pack also includes cards for Knights/Titans which didn't get any last time? Would make sense for the Titan expansion.
tauist wrote: More cards that will be in limited quantities
Astartes Legion Support box while I'm at it
Think I'll be buying a single Spartan from ebay before deciding whether or not to splurge on a whole box however.. Why couldn't they release the regular Land Raiders first
Way I see it, an Astartes Det box, Legion Support box, Rhinos & Land Raiders should be the first items to release for the nostalghia hungry 2nd ed Space Marine crowd. Feels weird having to wait for the 'raiders
Im one of the nostalgia hungry Space Marine crowd...
I take it the Spartans are not just the 30k version of a Land Raider then?
Spartan is a stretched land raider with more transport capacity and quad las cannon on each side
wondering on the stats as I'm guessing 2+ save & 2 wounds, which to be honest is going to be quite fragile with that firepower as it will be a priority target
leopard wrote: Spartan is a stretched land raider with more transport capacity and quad las cannon on each side
wondering on the stats as I'm guessing 2+ save & 2 wounds, which to be honest is going to be quite fragile with that firepower as it will be a priority target
will not be an easy one to get the points right
I'd speculate that it might only be one wound but perhaps has the ability to upgrade to flare shield or perhaps comes with one naturally, so it might have an invul save in addition to likely being 2/3+ armour. The dracosan I feel will be similar, likely one wound but decently robust like a malcador. I guess we'll know in a few weeks.
Using the same chassis doesn't automatically correlate to equivalent toughness/resilience/protection/armor, etc. Its been long established that vehicles that share a common chassis can have different armor values in 30k/40k (compare a rhino to a predator, for example). The common chassis is an aesthetic thing more than it is a functional thing, as there is clearly some difference "under the hood" for many vehicles despite sharing similar chassis.
In the older 28 mmHH the malcador armour was 13/13/12 (front/side/rear) and 6 hull points vs Dracosan 13/12/11 5 HP, so the difference wasn`t actually that huge. So if that is any indication, and with LI`s limited stat granularity, both should be the same or very similar. But of course, it`s a different game, so anything can be expected.
chaos0xomega wrote: The common chassis is an aesthetic thing more than it is a functional thing, as there is clearly some difference "under the hood" for many vehicles despite sharing similar chassis.
Which matches the real world. Using surplus tank hulls as the chassis for other types of vehicles has happened in the past, and such vehicles are typically more lightly armored.
RazorEdge wrote: How realistic do you think could be a seperate Sprue with many Terminators but in Tartaros Armour?
I’ll be hoping they do a second infantry box with more terminators, assault marines, and different weapons teams. Doing a different terminator armor would be a good idea. Not sure if there are alternative jump troops they could make.
I pray the Emperor for a plastic sprue with all the range of Custodes, and a plastic sprue of Imperial Militia.
Waiting for Dracosan and Arvus boxes, I dont think I buy any bastion detachments, my Velatarii force has already been split in four Tercios and I can't deploy none less. Instead I could buy some Baneblades to lead an Armoured Company...
leopard wrote: Spartan is a stretched land raider with more transport capacity and quad las cannon on each side
wondering on the stats as I'm guessing 2+ save & 2 wounds, which to be honest is going to be quite fragile with that firepower as it will be a priority target
will not be an easy one to get the points right
I'd speculate that it might only be one wound but perhaps has the ability to upgrade to flare shield or perhaps comes with one naturally, so it might have an invul save in addition to likely being 2/3+ armour. The dracosan I feel will be similar, likely one wound but decently robust like a malcador. I guess we'll know in a few weeks.
one wound and the thing becomes a liability, unless very cheap, and then given the potential firepower, maybe 4 dice lascannon with "accurate", though I'm hoping for three dice just to stop the thing being ridiculously powerful and then either a very expensive, fragile box or even then maybe an undercosted but expensive fragile box
potential for a 1+ save though if one wound?
don't see the dracosan being Malcador toughness, its a transport not a battle tank, I can see a Gorgon should one appear being like a slowly moving bunker though
RazorEdge wrote: How realistic do you think could be a seperate Sprue with many Terminators but in Tartaros Armour?
I’ll be hoping they do a second infantry box with more terminators, assault marines, and different weapons teams. Doing a different terminator armor would be a good idea. Not sure if there are alternative jump troops they could make.
We basically know there are more weapon teams coming as the Imperial Fists legion rule talks about Plasma Cannons, Lascannons, Autocannons and Heavy Bolters on infantry which only other Heavy Weapons squads can take in HH.
But since its at least four more weapon types I would even expect a box just for HWS instead of another mixed infantry box. I do hope there are also boxes with just Terminators or Assault Marines coming
Matrindur wrote: I do hope there are also boxes with just Terminators or Assault Marines coming
As do I.
Unfortunately, the focus right now seems to be on keeping the number of new model SKUs released at once to a minimum. We got four combat unit SKUs in the first wave - plus the Rhino transport. And we're getting four figure SKUs in the second wave. Unless we start getting bigger releases, it might be a while until we see infantry boxes that are more focused.
leopard wrote: Spartan is a stretched land raider with more transport capacity and quad las cannon on each side
wondering on the stats as I'm guessing 2+ save & 2 wounds, which to be honest is going to be quite fragile with that firepower as it will be a priority target
will not be an easy one to get the points right
I'd speculate that it might only be one wound but perhaps has the ability to upgrade to flare shield or perhaps comes with one naturally, so it might have an invul save in addition to likely being 2/3+ armour. The dracosan I feel will be similar, likely one wound but decently robust like a malcador. I guess we'll know in a few weeks.
one wound and the thing becomes a liability, unless very cheap, and then given the potential firepower, maybe 4 dice lascannon with "accurate", though I'm hoping for three dice just to stop the thing being ridiculously powerful and then either a very expensive, fragile box or even then maybe an undercosted but expensive fragile box
potential for a 1+ save though if one wound?
don't see the dracosan being Malcador toughness, its a transport not a battle tank, I can see a Gorgon should one appear being like a slowly moving bunker though
More than likely 1 wound. Most vehicles that size have 1 wound. A Thunderhawk has 2 wounds and is much larger.
chaos0xomega wrote: Using the same chassis doesn't automatically correlate to equivalent toughness/resilience/protection/armor, etc. Its been long established that vehicles that share a common chassis can have different armor values in 30k/40k (compare a rhino to a predator, for example). The common chassis is an aesthetic thing more than it is a functional thing, as there is clearly some difference "under the hood" for many vehicles despite sharing similar chassis.
It does in Epic. And Predator is an uparmoured version of the Rhino, it is not the same case.
Not sure if prices were already posted for the new stuff over here? Every LI kit will cost 40€, which I suppose can already be considered a standard price for them, seeing as every individual box released for it so far have costed that amount.
Great Slaughter book will also cost 40€. Guessing the epub will be almost as much
15€ for the cards. I expect the cards to sell out first, as usual
tauist wrote: Not sure if prices were already posted for the new stuff over here? Every LI kit will cost 40€, which I suppose can already be considered a standard price for them, seeing as every individual box released for it so far have costed that amount.
Great Slaughter book will also cost 40€. Guessing the epub will be almost as much
15€ for the cards. I expect the cards to sell out first, as usual
Gosh, prices are ridiculously high, I mean, even compared to other GW products. 10€/Malcador Chaos Warhounds for example are 2.5€/model, Cadian shock troops are also 40€ per box and that's 10 big nice models. It's total nonsense.
tauist wrote: Not sure if prices were already posted for the new stuff over here? Every LI kit will cost 40€, which I suppose can already be considered a standard price for them, seeing as every individual box released for it so far have costed that amount.
Great Slaughter book will also cost 40€. Guessing the epub will be almost as much
15€ for the cards. I expect the cards to sell out first, as usual
Hmm, didnt a lot of the first wave cost varying amount? Infantry boxes/thunderhawk/rhinos etc?
And Titans v Titans? Why would you possibly want to play this when you could just play Adeptus Titanicus? The Titans in Legions are probably one of the most poorly-realised aspects of the game (when compared to other versions) so not sure why they would choose to shine a spotlight on them
There's a pretty significant number of AT players that have assembled collections far too large to realistically play under normal AT rules. This is basically Apocalypse for them.
xttz wrote: There's a pretty significant number of AT players that have assembled collections far too large to realistically play under normal AT rules. This is basically Apocalypse for them.
Thankyou - that is the first answer I have read on this topic that makes sense.
And I guess is genuinely useful at the moment for people who have that collection and can't buy stuff for Legions itself.
IF people are put off by the lack of availability of LI stuff, I hope GW dont do the 'well it shows there isnt enough interest' down the line and not expand and support the game.
VAYASEN wrote: IF people are put off by the lack of availability of LI stuff, I hope GW dont do the 'well it shows there isnt enough interest' down the line and not expand and support the game.
All indications are that what's available is selling well. The only thing holding back more sales is the limited selection that's available. There's currently no reason for GW to be unhappy with how the game is selling.
VAYASEN wrote: IF people are put off by the lack of availability of LI stuff, I hope GW dont do the 'well it shows there isnt enough interest' down the line and not expand and support the game.
All indications are that what's available is selling well. The only thing holding back more sales is the limited selection that's available. There's currently no reason for GW to be unhappy with how the game is selling.
^^ this all GW can really go on is how much of what they produce is being sold (guessing a high percentage) and how often their sales reps report being bothered by independents asking when more is available
I believe all restock requests go through GWs Direct Trade Sales portal, which is basically an online store for retailers at wholesale trade rates. One would presume that this enables GW to log and track demand for specific products or SKUs, provided retailers are actually inputting demand into the system. IIRC in the past the system would indicate stock levels in some manner, my go-to store would only place orders for what was indicated to be in stock, otherwise GW would sit on the order, sometimes for months, until suddenly one day he would be billed for it when it became available again. This caused all sorts of obvious cash flow issues for him, as larger restock orders would slam his credit cards/bank accounts suddenly and without warning, and often time the restocks came in well after the customer who requested those items found them available elsewhere or lost interest in the item for whatever reason, etc.
You can of course bugger your rep about it as well, but properly your reps are really primarily there for your weekly new release orders and your annual account maintenance obligations, etc. They can assist you with restocks but from what I understand that really takes the form of them submitting a cart on your behalf via the direct trade sales portal, so it should still be getting registered somewhere in GW's ERP system (lol).
I quite like the idea that I can reuse my AT models for small games of Titandeath. Gives me some options.
Titandeath might end up being a really cool starting point for developing campaign games involving Titans. Within the LI framework, your Legio can end up facing flyers, tanks or infantry in addition to other Titans. It's like another, more fast paced flavour of AT, if you will.
xttz wrote: There's a pretty significant number of AT players that have assembled collections far too large to realistically play under normal AT rules. This is basically Apocalypse for them.
Thankyou - that is the first answer I have read on this topic that makes sense.
And I guess is genuinely useful at the moment for people who have that collection and can't buy stuff for Legions itself.
I do wonder if you'd want to play LI if your goal was a titan only game though. I appreciate AT is too complex, but I feel like LI is too far the other way. Even Epic 40k, the edition that gets lambasted for being overly simplified, has more depth in terms of how Titans play with the procedural damage, catastrophic and critical damage tables, and effectiveness based on how much damage has been taken.
for a pure titan v titan game, or titans & knights... reskin Battletech, or Alpha Strike and you probably get a much better game of it, with the ability to bring in a bit of infantry and vehicles/air support
I actually lamented that the Titan hit charts system from SM2 was not included in Legions, as I loved that part of the game and how it was incredible for adding cool narrative stories in games (titans with both arms blown off trying to carry on and stomp on stuff etc) .
But after playing some games I think it is so crunchy/long-winded in other areas, the last thing it needed is even more rules referencing and pauses in play - so perhaps the more simplified multi-wound system gun platform works a bit better?
Pacific wrote: I actually lamented that the Titan hit charts system from SM2 was not included in Legions, as I loved that part of the game and how it was incredible for adding cool narrative stories in games (titans with both arms blown off trying to carry on and stomp on stuff etc) .
But after playing some games I think it is so crunchy/long-winded in other areas, the last thing it needed is even more rules referencing and pauses in play - so perhaps the more simplified multi-wound system gun platform works a bit better?
I think the only thing noticeably lacking is what happens when titans die, I wasn't quite expecting the giant chart from AT but something more than every titan basically explodes the same regardless of scale.
Sunday night or the Monday after the Next Week post goes up on WarCom. I don't know for sure when Euro Trade sends it out, but for as quick as Euro prices are confirmed they must be sending theirs out about the same time.
Their all-Titan rules seem a bit kludge, like their trying to force the rules to do something for which they're not well suited.
I think I'd rather play a game of AT for that.
At least the article itself is an acknowledgement that AT doesn't scale up well at all in terms of space and time requirements, where as titandeath will allow for a broader range of point levels and still hopefully be resolved in practical amount of time.
At least it shows an understanding of some of the stranger mechanics that needed altering for it to work stand-alone, like changing the methodology for attacking so the defender no longer decided the order of weapons fire.
I will say the silly "equation" for engine killer weapons give me titanicus ptsd, imagine just giving an updated list of weapons costs instead of throwing math problem at players. Also indicating only SOME weapons will cost more, which, I sorta think that's a bit weak, the only real task for titandeath was creating an economy around the weapons loadouts, they were free to do so too because the increased points costs wouldn't affect normal legions, just titandeath. That fact that they chose only to cost engine killer weapons, and even then, couldn't be bothered to just list the updated costs per titan, so I dunno it sorta seems like something players themselves could have come up with. But it does seem more practical than setting up dozens of titans for a two turn weekend long game a of titanicus.
Perhaps I’m dim or maybe GW’s messaging is poor, but will the Great Slaughter book have rules for drop pods and other forthcoming models? Or is that another book entirely?
Fugazi wrote: Perhaps I’m dim or maybe GW’s messaging is poor, but will the Great Slaughter book have rules for drop pods and other forthcoming models? Or is that another book entirely?
From the reveal article:
Drop Pod Assaults return in a new Formation, smashing powerful infantry detachments into the heart of battle with lethal Deathstorm Drop Pod batteries for support.
Since it has the Drop Pod formation rules inside it will also have the rules for the models
well thats a bit of a blow out, local shop, a shop which shifted 300+ boxes of Age of Darkness and I gather over 150 copies of Legions has been told its allocation for the expansion book
drum roll
2 copies
two, thats it, single digits, and low at that, thats yer lot
its like they don't actually want people to play this
Jaxmeister wrote: Or they don't want you ordering from an independent FLGS.
perhaps, this does however mean I won't be ordering it
we have about a dozen locally who want to play it, about half that managed to get hold of enough to play it, three more have just the started and assorted bits from AT & LI but not enough to really use, and another three looking at dropping it as they can't get enough stuff to keep going
models can be found elsewhere, not all want to, which is fine, the inability to get the actual books is ridiculous
Old World is basically suffering the same, a few managed to get some, quite a few more didn't
leopard wrote: well thats a bit of a blow out, local shop, a shop which shifted 300+ boxes of Age of Darkness and I gather over 150 copies of Legions has been told its allocation for the expansion book
drum roll
2 copies
two, thats it, single digits, and low at that, thats yer lot
its like they don't actually want people to play this
leopard wrote: well thats a bit of a blow out, local shop, a shop which shifted 300+ boxes of Age of Darkness and I gather over 150 copies of Legions has been told its allocation for the expansion book
drum roll
2 copies
two, thats it, single digits, and low at that, thats yer lot
its like they don't actually want people to play this
The hell are they playing at....
at a guess some serious underestimation and shenanigans. local bod reckons the release of the individual tanks is being held back to push sales of the starter set which seems easily available, plus limited availability of the expansion is because they have assumed many have multiple copies of the starter but will only by the expansion once and they got their guesses wrong
It might also be that stores which were understocked before, and thus generated a lot of complaints and negative marketing; are now being served with increased stock to compensate and appease those markets.
Ergo GW has not enough for everyone so they are juggling the stock around and different stores are getting different amounts to try and even it out somewhat.
There is more benefit for the fans though. I agree it doesn’t help real game stores, but it at least gets enough kits out there to the people who are keen to get it. Watching the horrendous drip feed of GW product to people who are absolutely gagging for it is painful to watch.
At the same time a good many KS games hit with a big boom and then nothing after. The firm burned all their money on fullfilling the KS itself and thus have to either run another (which has a long lead time to work up toward); or they are back to their regular income levels and have to drip feed updates slowly.
Made harder by the fact that the most eager market is typically burned out. With a glut of stock they often can't justify/afford/budget for more for a while.
So you can get a huge boom and then a bust after which can so very easily kill things. Esp if local stores aren't picking up the game to advertise and get new customers in (because the local stores "don't like KS or KS games).
perfect for companies doing fire & forget games though
and actually for some games you don't want a constant drip.. drip... drip... of new stuff that gets shoehorned in to meet a marketing forecast
though I'd argue such has to be essentially self contained board game type stuff
GW are being.. overstretched? recently, they seem to be scatter gunning new games to see what sticks
I mean gork knows 40k has the space conceptually for a whole range of new stuff, its a big universe afterall, but they are now long past the point - especially when the genericisation of unit profiles now where its hard to bring anything new in, though its still the cash cow
it all comes over as a company struggling with what they are trying to do beyond short term financial returns
leopard wrote: well thats a bit of a blow out, local shop, a shop which shifted 300+ boxes of Age of Darkness and I gather over 150 copies of Legions has been told its allocation for the expansion book
drum roll
2 copies
two, thats it, single digits, and low at that, thats yer lot
its like they don't actually want people to play this
The hell are they playing at....
Telling stores info like this in advance, knowing they will publish it on social media or whatever.
Works great for GWs fomo marketing with no cost involved.
I think they are just struggling with success at a time when a LOT of other firms are in the very same boat. Unable to take full advantage of increased sales because shipping and manufacture have been messed around with insane rising costs everywhere and that's before you add literal armed pirates messing up the waters; wars and other things. Cost of living and the fact that a lot of big firms have driven up the prices for a lot of basic elements has no doubt hit GW too. Even with increased sales they are likely also having to spend vastly more to resolve and invest than they would have done just a few years ago.
Yeah, GW knows how many trade accounts it has, and how many stores it has, and how many copies of the core box were sold, etc. There's no conceivable way they didn't have the data needed to figure out what a sane production run would be.
in addition they don't need to print in China and just hope shipping cost and time will stay the same
poor GW being hit by global events and therefore only having 1 book per retailer is possible but unlikely
another possible but unlikely option is that GW uses this intentional to increase FOMO and get people to order directly instead of buying with discount for higher profit
the most likely option is that their warehouse "robot" messed up the distribution again and while there are enough books, retailers got the wrong number assigned/shipped
Do we know what the situation is in relation to what will be exclusive to GW? I assume the models will be available everywhere (numbers permitting), are the cards a GW exclusive? And what about the book? I know some of the HH expansion books have been GW exclusives.
I think the ERP changeover and the issues with the new distribution hub are hitting GW really, really hard. They have no hold over their inventory right now and have nowhere to store stock. It's a giant mess, which most people knew it would be, that they are really struggling with and will probably have to spend a LOT of money to fix, because they hired completely the wrong people for the job initially.....
has any ERP system change/install ever actually gone as planned? I mean anywhere?
have worked at a few places that have brought these systems in or had some bright spark sell them on a change to another system and have yet to see any actually work
kodos wrote: depends on the planning and how pessimistic the board was about the ERP change
yes thats the trouble, they always assume it will go exactly as the sales-weasel said it would, and the demo systems they saw were never plain installations but had years of customisations applied
anyway, hopefully more copies of this will, eventually, arrive, otherwise the games going to die a death around here - likely faster if the two who did manage to get it (I think only one of which is actually a local player) start using stuff no one else has access to
Somewhere some Yemini pirates are playing a heck of a game of Legions Imperialis!
Probably with all of the Thunderhawks I can't get!
leopard wrote: has any ERP system change/install ever actually gone as planned? I mean anywhere?
have worked at a few places that have brought these systems in or had some bright spark sell them on a change to another system and have yet to see any actually work
The first ERP launch I worked on was a mess. Very much over-promised and under-delivered, we spent months dealing with issues before eventually discovering that the longer term plans to bring more locations onboard simply wouldn't work because of some fundamental design flaws from the consultants.
Two years later we ended up doing an expensive re-implemementation with new consultants who were more honest about what the system could do. We were much more careful with deciding what functions were "must have" for day one versus "want to have" later, and did more of the preparation and testing work internally. It went so much better and since then all the other planned locations were added (largely) quite smoothly.
What I also noticed, the Reaver, the Warlord and the Marauder Bomber have each two Sets, with one of each is "Online Only" but have a Box Art for Retail.
This is making my Epic Warpath Kickstarter pledge easier and easier...
I WANT to be playing a slightly modernized, version of GW Epic... they literally had to do almost nothing for me to spend endless money. Somehow every single decision they have made has been a bad one.
Come on GW, it cannot be this hard to make more sensible decisions, about everything from limiting your game to a niche setting, production flubs, inventory issues, cryptic game rules writing (for a game that already had several EXCELLENT rule sets), fiddly models, etc...
Australia left out in the cold again - Legions Imperialis Products that are meant to be going up for Pre-Order this Saturday 17/02/2024 for Release on Saturday 02/03/2024 have been delayed with no date being announced. This supply issue is getting riduculous.
sarduka42 wrote: Australia left out in the cold again - Legions Imperialis Products that are meant to be going up for Pre-Order this Saturday 17/02/2024 for Release on Saturday 02/03/2024 have been delayed with no date being announced. This supply issue is getting riduculous.
Maybe get onto your politicians to send a task force to the Red Sea!
sarduka42 wrote: Australia left out in the cold again - Legions Imperialis Products that are meant to be going up for Pre-Order this Saturday 17/02/2024 for Release on Saturday 02/03/2024 have been delayed with no date being announced. This supply issue is getting riduculous.
Maybe get onto your politicians to send a task force to the Red Sea!
sarduka42 wrote: Australia left out in the cold again - Legions Imperialis Products that are meant to be going up for Pre-Order this Saturday 17/02/2024 for Release on Saturday 02/03/2024 have been delayed with no date being announced. This supply issue is getting riduculous.
I’m guessing issues with shipping, due to the location of the Suez Canal.
sarduka42 wrote: Australia left out in the cold again - Legions Imperialis Products that are meant to be going up for Pre-Order this Saturday 17/02/2024 for Release on Saturday 02/03/2024 have been delayed with no date being announced. This supply issue is getting riduculous.
I’m guessing issues with shipping, due to the location of the Suez Canal.
its terrible how the issue of stuff manufactured in Nottingham can't get to shops in Barnsley due to the Suez Canal thing
sarduka42 wrote: Australia left out in the cold again - Legions Imperialis Products that are meant to be going up for Pre-Order this Saturday 17/02/2024 for Release on Saturday 02/03/2024 have been delayed with no date being announced. This supply issue is getting riduculous.
Yeah wtf? I just saw that on GapGames?
Also when do preorders go live over here now?? It used to be 12, then it swapped to 1, but Gap seemed to release them earlier than that? They're still not live on TCC or other sites.
You'd think if they're going to do these releases where you need to be refreshing the store at the moment it drops to actually get the products, they'd let us know a tiny bit in advance so people don't waste an hour on a Saturday and not even get a chance to order it.
– 2x Legiones Astartes Formation Cards (Drop Pod and Fast Attack) – 10x Legiones Astartes Detachment Datasheet Cards – 3x Solar Auxilia Formation Cards – 7x Solar Auxilia Detachment Datasheet Cards
The SM cards should be the 4 types of Drop Pods, 4 units in the fast attack box, Spartans and Proteus Land Raiders which is 10 different units and would be everything currently revealed
The SA should be Cyclops, Valdor and Infernus, Stormhammer, Dracosan and Basilisk/Medusa. Its either Basilisk and Medusa each have their own cards which would be 7 or they are just a weapon swap and the Arvus gets a new card since the plastic models have that new bit that looks like a gun. No matter which one it is it would again be everything currently revealed.
Now to wait for the reviews in a few hours to see what the rules actually are. I'm really surprised they never did an article about the new formations and units, just the one about titans. For SM we at least know the formations already through the WD battlereport but no idea what the 3 SA could be, except one is probably an aerial assault of some kind.
Sprue pics:
Spoiler:
SM support squad: SA support squad: Spartans: Malcador variants:
The book and cards actually appeared on the UK pre-orders page at 9.37am - I managed to bag mine and be checked out more than 20 mins before they were supposed to be on sale.....
zedmeister wrote: Cards were sold out on UKGW at 9:55. Disappeared just as I clicked order...
Same here. Logged at 10:54, put them in my basket together with the book and 2 pots of paint that I had prepared beforehand to get free shipping, noticed that my adress had disappeared from the 14 millions website database again, reentered it, tried to pay with Paypal (on which I had pre-authentified to save time), and by the time I clicked order, I was sent back to my cart with the cards removed. Unbelievable.
I'm fuming right now, but this may be the last thing I needed to get myself off that FOMO crap. I could probably use a lower blood pressure every Saturday morning or so.
StraightSilver wrote: The book and cards actually appeared on the UK pre-orders page at 9.37am - I managed to bag mine and be checked out more than 20 mins before they were supposed to be on sale.....
What an absolute shambles GW ordering is at present. Just wanted a set of cards...
zedmeister wrote: Cards were sold out on UKGW at 9:55. Disappeared just as I clicked order...
Same here. Logged at 10:54, put them in my basket together with the book and 2 pots of paint that I had prepared beforehand to get free shipping, noticed that my adress had disappeared from the 14 millions website database again, reentered it, tried to pay with Paypal (on which I had pre-authentified to save time), and by the time I clicked order, I was sent back to my cart with the cards removed. Unbelievable.
I'm fuming right now, but this may be the last thing I needed to get myself off that FOMO crap. I could probably use a lower blood pressure every Saturday morning or so.
Same. Paypal even sent me notice. It's the simplest thing as well. A cheapish deck of cards not a limited edition book, hardly FOMO material...
I checked Ebay for LI cards. The prices are simply insane for the previous set of cards (another effect of GW only producing cards for a single run), so I suspect those had a much more limited run and were targetted by scalpers as usual.
CorwinB wrote: I checked Ebay for LI cards. The prices are simply insane for the previous set of cards (another effect of GW only producing cards for a single run), so I suspect those had a much more limited run and were targetted by scalpers as usual.
I may pay £25 tops. Possibly. No way will I be massively overpaying any chancers for a deck of cards that's a nice to have. If GW restock, excellent, otherwise, tough for me...
Only wanted the book from GW,
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Gah!!!!
I could order the book at 10:53 europe timeline and the models at 11:00 from gw direct.
Could only order 1 from eache. so i have book, spartans,sa tanks and support for sm and sa.
I did expect a waiting line but there was none.
So im happy, if i need more i can wait
Automatically Appended Next Post: Will made my own cards in exel. so i dont need the cards, but it would be nice if there where enough cards for every one and the fakt that the are very slow with reprinting the cards is very sad compagny politic
Book was out of stock on the UKGW site at 1017 when I tried to order it. No LGS I could find has any stock of it either. Utterly ridiculous. Don't want to buy any more models without having the book for formations points etc.
Does make me more inclined to give Epic Warpath a shot rather than waste my time chasing stuff from GW.
Book was out of stock on the UKGW site at 1017 when I tried to order it. No LGS I could find has any stock of it either. Utterly ridiculous. Don't want to buy any more models without having the book for formations points etc.
Does make me more inclined to give Epic Warpath a shot rather than waste my time chasing stuff from GW.
Book was out of stock on the UKGW site at 1017 when I tried to order it. No LGS I could find has any stock of it either. Utterly ridiculous. Don't want to buy any more models without having the book for formations points etc.
Does make me more inclined to give Epic Warpath a shot rather than waste my time chasing stuff from GW.
Yes it was already out of stock. If you haven't seen it before they have a weird thing sometimes before it actually updates to say out of stock, where it looks like you can preorder, but if you had clicked on it it would have came up with a little "insufficient stock" warning and doesn't actually let you purchase.
Said it was available. But clicking add to cart did nothing. No message, nothing in cart. At least that's what my phone was doing. Now it says its out of stock.
Edit: Anyway, I know it's a year away, but I know I'll get all the models I need for Epic Warpath and the rules will be good as well. No bit-part release of rules that only 1 in 10 players can get.
New formations and units taken from the GMG video for anyone interested, hope its ok to post these?
Legiones Astartes:
Spoiler:
Formations: Legion Sky-Hunter Phalanx - Compulsory: 4x Vanguard slots - Optional: 2x Light Armour, 1x Air Support, 1x Vanguard - Rules: The compulsory slots must be filled with Scimitar, Land Speeder or Javelin detachments and Scimitar, Land Speeder and Javelins get Outflank. No mention of Outriders in the special rules, might be a mistake? If correct Outriders can only be taken in the single optional slot and don't gain outflank. Legion Drop Pod Assault - Compulsory: 1x HQ, 1x Support, 2x Core - Optional: 2x Core, 1x Air Support, 2x Support - Rules: All Infantry must be in Drop Pods (excluding deep strike models) and all walkers must be in Dreadnought Drop Pods
Detachments: Legion Outrider Squadron - Vanguard - 30pts for 2x, +30pts for 2x more, +60pts for 4x more - Jink (6+) Legion Scimitar Jetbike Squadron - Vanguard - 35pts for 3x, +35pts for 3x more, +70pts for 6x more - Jink (6+), Skimmer Legion Land Speeder Squadron - Vanguard - 30pts for 2x, +30pts for 2x more, +60pts for 4x more - Jink (6+), Skimmer Legion Javelin Squadron - Vanguard - 33pts for 2x, +33pts for 2x more, +66pts for 4x more - Jink (6+), Skimmer Legion Spartan Detachment - Transport - 80pts per model, +2pts for lascannon instead of heavy bolter, +5pts for pintle multi-melta - Assault Transport (5) Legion Land Raider Detachment - Transport - 40pts per model,+5pts for pintle multi-melta but only 1x per three Land Raiders - Assault Transport (2), Forward Deployment Legion Drop Pod Detachment - Transport - 6pts per model,+32pts for 1x Palisade Drop Pod at max 1x per normal Drop Pod - Transport (2), Drop Pod Dreadnought Drop Pod Detachment - Transport - 7pts per model,+32pts for 1x Palisade Drop Pod at max 1x per normal Drop Pod - Large Transport (2), Drop Pod Palisade Drop Pod - only as upgrade - Drop pod, Shield Generator (5+) Legion Deathstorm Drop Pod Detachment - Support - 32pts for 2x, +32pts for 2x more, +64pts for 4x more - Drop Pod
Solar Auxilia:
Spoiler:
Formations: Solar Auxilia Artillery Company - Compulsory: 1x HQ, 3x Artillery- Optional: 2x Support, 2x Bastion - Rules: Earthshaker cannons and Medusa siege guns don't suffer -1 to hit when firing without line of sight Solar Auxilia Mechanised Infantry Sub-cohort - Compulsory: 1x HQ, 1x Support, 2x Core - Optional: 2x Vanguard, 1x Air Support, 1x Support - Rules: All infantry detachments must be upgrades with Dracosans Solar Auxilia Super-heavy Company - Compulsory: 3x Heavy Armour - Optional: 2x Heavy Armour - Rules: Tank Commander same as core book, while two or more models from this formation are in range of the same objective, increases tactical strength of each model by 1
Detachments: Auxilia Dracosan Detachment - Transport - 37pts per model, +5pts for demolisher cannon instead of twin lascannon, changes Transport from (4) to (2) - Explorator Adaption, Transport (4) Auxilia Cyclops Battery - Support - 40pts for 2x, +40pts for 2x more, +80pts for 4x more - Compact, Remote Controlled Detonation (when within 12" of a friendly commander can detonate: attacks with all blast weapons, template over cyclops, no scatter) The detonation charges are listed like normal weapons and I can't find anything why it shouldn't be allowed to just attack with them without detonating raw? Of course that shouldn't be used like this and will likely be errataed Auxilia Malcador Infernus Squadron - Battle Tank - 70pts for 1x, +70pts for 1x more, +140pts for 2x more - Chain of Command, Explorator Adaption Auxilia Valdor Squadron - Battle Tank - 70pts for 1x, +70pts for 1x more, +140pts for 2x more - Chain of Command, Explorator Adaption Auxilia Stormhammer Squadron - Heavy Armour - 100pts for 1x, +100pts for 1x more, +200pts for 2x more, +4pts to exchange multi-laser sponsons for lascannon sponsons - Chain of Command, Explorator Adaption Auxilia Medusa Battery - Artillery - 130pts for 4x, +130pts for 4x more, +260pts for 8x more - Chain of Command, Explorator Adaption Auxilia Basilisk Battery - Artillery - 140pts for 4x, +140pts for 4x more, +280pts for 8x more - Chain of Command, Explorator Adaption
Logged in at 9.50am and was out of the queue in seconds. Only the book and cards were showing at that time and grabbed the book.
So I count myself very lucky and feel for the people who got screwed :/
A second book to basically inform us that if running games of Titans & Knights, we can take as many of their core-book formations as we like. They could have put that in a pdf at launch and started out with far more players...
If anyone is up for a game then I'm happy to run Knights with the full 30% as Solar auxilary. Otherwise Legions is a pass.
Edit: Anyway, I know it's a year away, but I know I'll get all the models I need for Epic Warpath and the rules will be good as well. No bit-part release of rules that only 1 in 10 players can get.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The cards are especially frustrating, because they’re GW Direct. Which means zero chance of finding them cluttering up FLGS Shelves.
Add in GW has reprinted some decks for Necromunda, but not all, and nobody has a clue if a given pack will or won’t be reprinted, let alone when.
They're not Direct Only, they are Online Only, which means that they are not sold in GW's own stores, but trade accounts are able to order them (although I believe in most cases the discount they can order at is lower).
SamusDrake wrote: A second book to basically inform us that if running games of Titans & Knights, we can take as many of their core-book formations as we like. They could have put that in a pdf at launch and started out with far more players...
If anyone is up for a game then I'm happy to run Knights with the full 30% as Solar auxilary. Otherwise Legions is a pass.
That and it has all the rules for units that were left out of the first book.
I already wasn't planning on buying the book because I don't support GW's piecemeal rules in overpriced books, was going to grab some of the kits though, but given they wasted an hour of my Saturday to not even release it, I'm going to go back to my 3D printer go brrr Tyranid Epic 3rd edition force and revisit LI when they get their gak together.
SamusDrake wrote: A second book to basically inform us that if running games of Titans & Knights, we can take as many of their core-book formations as we like. They could have put that in a pdf at launch and started out with far more players...
If anyone is up for a game then I'm happy to run Knights with the full 30% as Solar auxilary. Otherwise Legions is a pass.
That and it has all the rules for units that were left out of the first book.
I already wasn't planning on buying the book because I don't support GW's piecemeal rules in overpriced books, was going to grab some of the kits though, but given they wasted an hour of my Saturday to not even release it, I'm going to go back to my 3D printer go brrr Tyranid Epic 3rd edition force and revisit LI when they get their gak together.
Brrrrr indeed, it's like they're allergic to money with li releases
After having watched Ash's review of the new book, I am slightly annoyed by its contents considering the substantial asking price of the book.
There's like a handful of missions, and 2-3 pages of units for Astartes & SA each. That's quite stingy considering the book costs about the same as the core rulebook!
I could care less about the "lore spam". Give me a free PDF version of this book with just the missions and the couple datasheets any day instead of this tosh
If future "Campaign books" will be as stingy with their contents, I'll seriously be reconsidering further investments into them.. Made the 15€ cards seem like a bargain in comparison, sheesh!
I am starting to lean to the "LI is just a DLC trap" argument more and more with each passing day..
I'm cutting my losses with legions imperialis, I had the new support units and tanks in my cart and just thought, why am I even doing this? Probably going to sell what I've got and wait for Warpath
tauist wrote: After having watched Ash's review of the new book, I am slightly annoyed by its contents considering the substantial asking price of the book.
There's like a handful of missions, and 2-3 pages of units for Astartes & SA each. That's quite stingy considering the book costs about the same as the core rulebook!
I could care less about the "lore spam". Give me a free PDF version of this book with just the missions and the couple datasheets any day instead of this tosh
If future "Campaign books" will be as stingy with their contents, I'll seriously be reconsidering further investments into them.. Made the 15€ cards seem like a bargain in comparison, sheesh!
I am starting to lean to the "LI is just a DLC trap" argument more and more with each passing day..
I tend to agree at this point, what's also apparent is just how phoned in calling something a formation can really be. The artillery formation for SA, the buy in is a whole hq base/model. That's it, that and 8 basilisks and boom its its own formation. I think that's indeed another problem with the asknig price for the book, if one can memorize the relevant few pages of actual rules in about 2 seconds of watching reviews I'm not sure what's left to even purchase, that is, if gw allowed me to purchase the book to begin with
Just reading the SA side of the goonhammer review and oh man will this game need some kind of limits on army building.
If you like crap vehicles then warpath is for you, the infantery is nice. The rules ?? your better play epic armagedon.
I did not have anny problem ordering my stuff, Release time for europe was 11:00 hour, you dont wait till past it, then the change is your to late.
I was afraid i coulnd get it so i logged in at 10:50 hour, im sorry you did not get yours.
good that you know that when none of those (neither vehicles nor infantry) went to the tooling yet and no one really knows how the models will look like (render and prints can not really tell you how the plastics will look like or if the design changes)
but as Mantic said that they are trying to do the vehicles in the least amount of pieces possible so that people can focus on gaming rather than building, I am looking forward to how the plastics will look like
for the rules, a streamlined version of Epic with a different take on command will be worth a try, no matter which models are going to be used
and I guess by the time EWP is released LI will have gotten the basic stuff out as well
Book and cards were out of stock in the my two 'local' stores as soon as pre-orders went live. There was no chance to order them at all.
I really don't understand how GW don't make more stock for these, as surely the more people that get their hands on the rules the more people will buy minis. I don't buy the 'they can't ship from china right now', these books would have been printed up months ago and they were able to print enough stock to replace the LI rulebooks quickly. Or perhaps they should stop printing in china and print locally.
I honestly expect a lot of people to flock to the new mantic version after this, and I'm sure in years to come we'll hear youtubers telling us GW canned LI as it wasn't popular enough. As much as the warpath KS has grabbed my attention, I've had less than great experiences with them in the past and the fact we've not seen any proper miniatures for the game at all yet (3d renders never look the same as the actual plastic sprues) puts me off enough to stay clear. Shame, as otherwise it sounds like it might be a good game.
I'm going to spend the cash I would have done on LI today, on redoing my entire Epic scale space-Skaven army from scratch.
Yet another example of bad rules design. Can the Cyclops attack if there are no Commanders within 12"? it does not say it can't...
I'd argue it makes it so explicit that it can only choose to detonate WHEN it ends its movement in the movement phase, but each model is limited also by its movement still ending within 12 of a commander. A less strict reading would assume it can still choose to detonate in another phase assuming the commander is within 12.
RexHavoc wrote: Book and cards were out of stock in the my two 'local' stores as soon as pre-orders went live. There was no chance to order them at all.
I really don't understand how GW don't make more stock for these, as surely the more people that get their hands on the rules the more people will buy minis. I don't buy the 'they can't ship from china right now', these books would have been printed up months ago and they were able to print enough stock to replace the LI rulebooks quickly. Or perhaps they should stop printing in china and print locally.
I honestly expect a lot of people to flock to the new mantic version after this, and I'm sure in years to come we'll hear youtubers telling us GW canned LI as it wasn't popular enough. As much as the warpath KS has grabbed my attention, I've had less than great experiences with them in the past and the fact we've not seen any proper miniatures for the game at all yet (3d renders never look the same as the actual plastic sprues) puts me off enough to stay clear. Shame, as otherwise it sounds like it might be a good game.
I'm going to spend the cash I would have done on LI today, on redoing my entire Epic scale space-Skaven army from scratch.
I think an argument can be made that GW should have sat on LI for another 6 months, let them build more inventory, then do a proper launch where people actually have the chance to buy the stuff.
So cards and the rulebook out of stock from GW online US in less than 5 minutes after 12 PM US CST, but did get my order in according to GW.
Minis still available.
Still this stock situation I think is going to strangle this game to death. Almost nobody in my immediate area is playing currently because of the availability.
Lord of Deeds wrote: So cards and the rulebook out of stock from GW online US in less than 5 minutes after 12 PM US CST, but did get my order in according to GW.
Minis still available.
Still this stock situation I think is going to strangle this game to death. Almost nobody in my immediate area is playing currently because of the availability.
Book out of stock on gw canada online, cards too I think, some minis still there.
Lord of Deeds wrote: So cards and the rulebook out of stock from GW online US in less than 5 minutes after 12 PM US CST, but did get my order in according to GW.
Minis still available.
Still this stock situation I think is going to strangle this game to death. Almost nobody in my immediate area is playing currently because of the availability.
^^^ this
it may well be wonderful for GW to sell 100% of what they release but its going to be short lived if by the time people can get hold of it the moment has passed and its just "that game that looked good but you could never get the stuff to play"
Lord of Deeds wrote: So cards and the rulebook out of stock from GW online US in less than 5 minutes after 12 PM US CST, but did get my order in according to GW.
Minis still available.
Still this stock situation I think is going to strangle this game to death. Almost nobody in my immediate area is playing currently because of the availability.
Book out of stock on gw canada online, cards too I think, some minis still there.
not much point buying the models if you can't get the rules and formations to use them
its good there is an "e" version, but despite being in Yorkshire its not much use to me, don't have a suitable tablet to view it on and my desktop PC isn't exactly mobile
could print a few pages (presumably they haven't tried to block printing?)
but from the GMG review, short of unit profiles & formations I'm not sure there is anything else in the book I actually want
leopard wrote: its good there is an "e" version, but despite being in Yorkshire its not much use to me, don't have a suitable tablet to view it on and my desktop PC isn't exactly mobile
could print a few pages (presumably they haven't tried to block printing?)
but from the GMG review, short of unit profiles & formations I'm not sure there is anything else in the book I actually want
It combined with not even being able to order it has just saved me 60 dollars. I'm with you, there really is just seemingly 10 pages of rules I actually want.
I've read some folks on here have already invested "over a grand" into LI, so I doubt GW will consider LI a failure anytime soon. Heck, the game is less than 6 months old. All the stock stores get are sold out. That doesn't tell me the game is dying, I'd say it has had quite a strong start for an entirely new product in an entirely different scale. GW estimated sales projections were off by quite a bit it seems, which is also telling me the game is doing better than anticipated.. 10th edition's pisspoor state of affairs no doubt plays into this as well..
Mantic might get a couple grognards on board their game, but I doubt it's going to surpass LI in popularity. Anyways, competition is good, and hopefully it'll keep GW from getting even more complacent with how things currently stand.
Still, having said that, rules DLC drip feed and a relatively slow release cycle for models feels kind of meh. How many years and books will it take to get Astartes fully fleshed out,d for example? And that's just one of the factions of HH (although admittedly the largest one)
Let’s say I and a friend head to our local FLGS with our painted Legions Imperialis forces. We play a game, and some heads are turned.
This is how games are best promoted of course, folk seeing other folk having fun whilst playing it.
Those turned heads decide to drop some dosh on it. Except not only does the FLGS not have any stock? But…neither does GW.
A game can be fantastic. The best game ever made. But attention spans are finite, especially in a market as niche as Wargaming. If you can’t buy-in straight off the bat, there’s no guarantee you’ll be back any time soon.
As I’ve said before, GW selling out is a nice enough problem to have, but it is still a problem, and one that needs solving sooner rather than later. Because not selling because you’ve no stock to sell really isn’t all that different to it simply not selling. Either way, you’re getting no return on your production investment.
Warpath is of no interest to me, because I don’t just want to play Epic Scale Games. I want to play Epic Scale Games in a universe that’s been part of my life for the past..erm….34 years.
this is basically it, I doubt there are many who play GW games for the tightly written and well edited rules, they play them for the background, the nostalgia
its why for example "Gates of Antares", a game which is objectively considerably better than 40k basically died. no one had any investment is a very synthetic "safe" background that read like the inlay from a ZX Spectrum game and was only there because some sort of background was considered to be required
its also why I think LI has all the flavour and weapons loadouts etc in, so players who want to run say a Leman Russ tank company can do so, and not a generic "Medium tank" company
the appeal was always for me at least the ability to run an army you wanted to have in 28mm, but knew you never would have and couldn't find a suitable table to play it on anyway
its why I loved 1st edition so much, it was, more or less, 40k 1st edition played at 6mm with cm in place of inches and the "to wound" roll taken out
I think the only thing holding LI back is definitely the stock issue. Warpath holds no interest for me, I don't like the look or quality of Mantic stuff. I've looked at it at a few wargame shows and always walked away without buying.
I want to play epic in this fully fluffed out universe. I was lucky enough to order what I thought except the cards but once I get the rules I can make my own cards up. If they could get the stock in sorted out by having more available and release new models quicker it'll remove a lot of the complaints, it wont stop the complaints as this version of the hobby is full of people for whom it seems to be their main thing to do.
GW is far from perfect but the quality of miniatures has nearly always been much better than their competitors.
I'm sticking with LI as it's a lot of fun to play, I just want more toys to play with.
I think an argument can be made that GW should have sat on LI for another 6 months, let them build more inventory, then do a proper launch where people actually have the chance to buy the stuff.
They actually did sit on it for months...
On another note, does anyone else feel like the SA Super-Heavy company should have been available in the Core Rule Book instead of the Armored Company? It's an actual formation that players could have bought with the models that were available at release outside of the Core Box. Spend enough money (and with a little luck in finding figures available to buy), and you could even build up full-size detachments for the unit.
I wonder if that helped or made it worse in the end. On one hand they could have used that time to produce more (Which I don't think they did looking at the stock levels), on the other hand it might have moved the production time into collision with other planned stuff since they wouldn't want to produce stuff months earlier that just sits in the warehouses afterwards. Of course that wouldn't affect the launch releases since the delay was too close to the original launch to not have everything produced already but for example they might have originally set aside a time period to manufacture the stuff on preorder now but since they are releasing later than originally planned and they didn't want them to sit in the warehouses that long they instead produced them closer to release where they might have to split the manufacturing time between them and other stuff that was planned for that time period which results in lower number of boxes produced.
On another note, does anyone else feel like the SA Super-Heavy company should have been available in the Core Rule Book instead of the Armored Company? It's an actual formation that players could have bought with the models that were available at release outside of the Core Box. Spend enough money (and with a little luck in finding figures available to buy), and you could even build up full-size detachments for the unit.
Instead of the Armoured Company? No. In addition? Probably yes
I think an argument can be made that GW should have sat on LI for another 6 months, let them build more inventory, then do a proper launch where people actually have the chance to buy the stuff.
They actually did sit on it for months...
I wouldn't really describe it as sitting on it, they had a date, something screwed up so that date slipped, but when they launched they didn't have much stock and in the weeks after launch some stuff restocked. The product that was part of the restock would have already been in late stage manufacture if not in the process of being shipped at launch.
So basically the hallmark of a rushed launch. If they'd waited for that product to be ready to ship then there would have been more available on launch day and less people put off by not being able to buy it.
So I just noticed something about the Orbital Assault special rule in the core book. It says that models that have both this rule and the Drop Pod rule can fire all their weapons after deploying.
Since it only works with drop pods, no other model should get this rule but none of the drop pod variants in the new book has this rule, not even the Deathstorm?
So unless that rule will only be on the Dreadclaw or Kharybdis (Do they have a rule like this in HH which the normal Drop Pods don't have?) they just forgot about this rule from the core book when writing the expansion book.
Wouldn't be the first thing that feels like different teams designed the two, for example in the core book many detachments get cheaper if you take more models in a single slot instead of multiple, meanwhile none of the expansion book units have that. They are all just multiples of the base cost points.
Or another one would be how in the core book in the dedicated transport rule it talks about taking Spartans as dedicated transports which isn't possible with any formation and there is nothing in the expansion book to change that. (Though that could change in the form of an errata for the Demi-Company formation)
I wonder if that helped or made it worse in the end. On one hand they could have used that time to produce more (Which I don't think they did looking at the stock levels), on the other hand it might have moved the production time into collision with other planned stuff since they wouldn't want to produce stuff months earlier that just sits in the warehouses afterwards. Of course that wouldn't affect the launch releases since the delay was too close to the original launch to not have everything produced already but for example they might have originally set aside a time period to manufacture the stuff on preorder now but since they are releasing later than originally planned and they didn't want them to sit in the warehouses that long they instead produced them closer to release where they might have to split the manufacturing time between them and other stuff that was planned for that time period which results in lower number of boxes produced.
The consistency so far of "four combat boxes per wave" (not including the Rhino transports) leads me to believe that this is the release schedule that they've had planned since the start. The fact that the SA support box includes units from both books solidifies that suspicion on my part. I can't say that I'm happy about it. I'm a bit reluctant to try and recruit a group to play at my FLGS when most of the very basic stuff simply isn't available from GW (yes... 3D printing... but you don't support your FLGS by buying that). This isn't like AT, where you only need to buy a few kits to have a powerful force. I hope that the release schedule picks up, because otherwise we're going to be waiting over a year just to get the figures that we've got rules for so far.
the superheavy company should certainly been in the main book, and the normal tank company should have had the superheavy slot as optional not mandatory, so as to make that a formation you could actually use with what was in the starter set, plus avoiding what feels like a 100 point "tax" on a leman russ formation
TBH i'm considering this a very slow grow, i'll ignore the rules until 2nd ed comes out in a few years and use it as a hobby project till then. Paint some nice models as and when they come into stock to buy, no drama then
I'm starting to wonder if the availability of a digital version is not going to be an excuse going forward to absolutely botching the launch of physical editions. And in reverse, if the unavailability of physical books is not a try to make paying (a lot!) for digital rules palatable.
Wondering if we might get a further wave announced this evening. Would be nice, as I need more Predators and Sicarans.
They usually leave at least a month between releases for the same range, so sadly I'm not expecting anything more at Epic scale until at least the end of March.
With AOS and then 40k in the last two releases, tonight is most likely TOW or HH.
Billicus wrote: I'm cutting my losses with legions imperialis, I had the new support units and tanks in my cart and just thought, why am I even doing this? Probably going to sell what I've got and wait for Warpath
support boxes most likely!
