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Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Stormtrooper X wrote:And as far as blaming white people for his problems, he refers to us as his enemies. I don't know about you, but when I refer to someone as my "enemy" it's not because I embrace them with love and understanding, it's because I despise them and wish to see them dead.


I have certainly had people I thought of as enemies who I didn’t wish dead. As a Christian, that would seem to be one of the central tenets of this preacher’s worldview and philosophy. I believe he referred to Jesus’ teaching of “love thine enemy” in the next sentence of his speech.

And I again think you’re misinterpreting the remark. He is ranting (in an admittedly somewhat paranoid fashion) about “rich white people”, who control the country and in his view keep other people down. In think the key words there are “rich” and “control”. White is only a factor inasmuch as it’s different from black, and people naturally favor others who are more like themselves. He’s saying that most of the people in positions of power and influence in this country are wealthy and white. Which is pretty accurate. And he’s saying that if you are visibly different from the people in power, you are in a disadvantageous situation. Do I think he focuses too much on that issue, dramatizing it and exaggerating it? Quite possibly. But maybe this particular subject isn't really his main focus. Maybe his church focuses most of its efforts on community outreach and building people up. That would seem to be how Obama got involved.

He’s also ranting against “hatred, bigotry, and smallmindedness”. He’s saying those are the qualities of his “enemies”. Which indicates to me that a particular subgroup, namely wealthy, influential racists, are the ones he is calling his enemies.

While I think he’s not communicating his central point very effectively, and he’s obviously scaring some people, I don’t think the central message of this particular sermon / rant is a scary one.

Now the stuff about putting Mandela in jail, or his overdramatic “god damn America” rant. That stuff is pretty crazy.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2008/03/15 15:23:55


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Crazed Witch Elf




Albuquerque, NM

Mannahnin wrote:Exactly which minorities are we talking about?

While poverty is more important, race is not trivial or insignificant.

I cannot see any evidence to suggest that a person from a minority ethnic group has “a better shot” at success than I do. That sounds like a Rush Limbaugh “persecuted majority” fantasy. Can you cite any statistical evidence showing that people from any particular minority group have MORE educational or economic success than your average white American?


Unfortunately no, I can't. While they have more opportunities it doesn't mean they take them. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Mannahnin wrote:How exactly can they go to college for free? Any how many of them can do so? Statistics or at least examples, please. There are certainly scholarship programs out there, but scholarships exist for all sorts of groups (and for high-achieving students in general) not just for racial minorities. Here’s one for people with Cystic Fibrosis:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/85940.php

Scholarships rarely allow people to go to school “for free”. Most of the time they partially defray the costs.


If you have a census number (depends on which tribe you are from, if the tribe is recognized and if you meet the blood requirements of the tribe) there are plenty other options. They don't always post them on the internet, but at local clinics around here you can see adds for Natives to go to school (all the way to a PhD) for free.

http://www.fortlewis.edu/current_students/financial_aid/nat_amer.asp

Mannahnin wrote:“Don’t have to pay taxes”? Can you cite me some examples? Taxes are generally based on income, which again is a poverty issue, not a racial issue. If a higher percentage of minorities are too poor to owe taxes, that’s not an advantage. Just the opposite.


http://www.ftb.ca.gov/forms/misc/674.pdf

It works the same way here in New Mexico. Also, if you purchase something like say, a brand new vehicle, and take it back to the reservation you no longer have to pay for it since they can't come reposes it. There was a dealership here a few years back who started refusing to sell vehicles to natives because of this and of course they sued (and won).

Natives also receive free health care from IHS.

Mannahnin wrote:Priority for jobs is another matter, and is its own whole discussion. I disagree that it’s enough by itself to equate to more success or a better chance than you or I.


Try working at a casino.

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Mannahnin wrote:And I again think you’re misinterpreting the remark.


And I think your giving him to much leeway in interpreting what he means to say. One of those, "well what he's really trying to say..." moments. If you are constantly defending someone by having to parse all their language and interpret in some other fashion, then the other person is probably doing something wrong.


Mannahnin wrote:
He’s also ranting against “hatred, bigotry, and smallmindedness”.


And he's doing it by being using hatred, bigotry, and small-mindedness, and as you can see, it's winning friends and influencing people. This is the kinda of idiocy the Dr. Cosby has been arguing against for years now.

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Stormtrooper X wrote:Good night Mannahnin, I thought I sat on the left side of the bench.

Look, minorities have just as much of a chance to succeed in this wonderful country as either you or I do. In fact, they have a better shot at it. They can go to college for free, get priority when it comes to jobs and in some cases don't have to pay taxes. Now some will say that this only makes sense because all of the horrible things us Europeans did to them. Uh, news flash, I didn't make your ancestors pick cotton or give them small pox infested blankets... and guess what, it wasn't you out there picking cotton either. What I'm getting at here is when is it enough? When do the descendants of people have to stop paying for what their ancestors did?


As a black man, I'm going to have to call "bs" on you right here. I've never gotten priority for any of my tech jobs. I've never gotten a tech job where I didn't phone interview (where my "irish" sounding name, technical skills, and "non-black" manner of speech made it impossible for an interviewer to tell that I was black) first. I've worked harder than all of my IT co-workers in every job I've ever had and just been told to work harder, getting paid less for more. It hasn't been until my current job where there are great people who judge me by my work and not my race that I've been able to even enjoy the tech industry, and to advance in my field. I can't believe I've found a company that actually rewards hard work.

Let me tell you something about how I grew up in rural white america. Lower middle class (a step up from when we lived in NYC), Honor roll student, in gifted and talented, harassed *constantly* by teachers and police and never doing anything to deserve it. My grandparents moved to that town and my uncles and aunts were constantly fighting, constantly under attack. I've worked hard for everything that I now have. My whole family has worked very very hard for everything that we now have. We have moved through the inertia of racism at various levels of society to move towards "the American Dream". And you know what? We don't begrudge anyone for it. I'll never hold someone else responsible for what I can change.

What makes me angry however, is when people like yourself attempt to deny me my experience. This is not about slavery, silly man, it's about what happens *right now*, today, in America. The fact is that you do not have the knowledge (neither you nor Mrs Ferraro) to say that being a black man is anything but a disadvantage in American life.

Pointing at the few scholarships that are awarded based on race (which completely ignores the chronic underfunding of the inner-city schools that would give these students the skills and motivation they need to get into college in the first place), or pointing to the supposed desire every black person has for slavery reparations...these are just straw men. Of course there are people who believe these sort of things, but there are also white people who believe we need to go back to the days of slavery and segregation, and that God has little better to do than strike down all non-whites in fury. Would you like me to judge you based on their misguided thoughts? The majority of black people are like the majority of white/yellow/purple people -- trying to get by, trying to live their lives in relative peace and comfort. Crazy people, misguided people, are everywhere and in every group, but to say those people represent the majority is equally crazy/misguided.

But hey, if you know where that magical "black guys get it soooooooo much easier than everyone" bus is, please ---PLEASE --let me know where it is so I can buy a ticket.

Or would I just get one for free, knowing all the wondrous holy power that has been bestown upon me?

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Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Stormtrooper X wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:I cannot see any evidence to suggest that a person from a minority ethnic group has “a better shot” at success than I do. That sounds like a Rush Limbaugh “persecuted majority” fantasy. Can you cite any statistical evidence showing that people from any particular minority group have MORE educational or economic success than your average white American?


Unfortunately no, I can't. While they have more opportunities it doesn't mean they take them. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.


I'm not calling you a racist, but you seem to be expressing a racist idea. You have expressed the opinion that ethnic AKA "racial" minorities have a BETTER chance of succeeding economically and socially in this country, and are now admitting that you don't have actual evidence or proof to support that claim. And instead of retracting it you suggest that it is their choice not to take these alleged opportunities? Are you reading from David Duke's script?

I'm sure the Native American population is important and numerically significant in your region, but all the programs and references (like casino work) you posted are specifically for Native American people, who represent 1.5% of the US population as of the 2000 census, as opposed to 12.9% black, 12.5% Hispanic, 4.2% Asian, or 2.4 who report at least two, not including mixed-race Native Americans (who are all counted in the Native American population; it’s just over a third of their 1.5%). If you want to start a thread decrying the governmental advantages they get, feel free. But I don't think it's particularly germane to complaints of racism against blacks or against minorities in general, which are what Wright's talking about.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/03/15 17:35:58


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Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Ahtman wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:And I again think you’re misinterpreting the remark.


And I think your giving him to much leeway in interpreting what he means to say. One of those, "well what he's really trying to say..." moments. If you are constantly defending someone by having to parse all their language and interpret in some other fashion, then the other person is probably doing something wrong.


I'm only parsing it to explain it to other people. I got his point on the first read. I didn't feel threatened or hated.

Some people also felt threatened by Dr. MLK. Those people were racists and fools. Wright is certainly no MLK. He's said some genuinely crazy things. And even his real points are distorted and detracted from by the clumsiness and inappropriateness of some of his rhetoric. But people certainly add their own interpretations to what they hear and read, and for some reason I'm not seeing hatred or bigotry in that quoted section, and some other people are.


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Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Back on the Obama topic:

cnn.com wrote:Controversial minister off Obama's campaign

A Chicago minister who delivered a fiery sermon about Sen. Hillary Clinton having an advantage over Sen. Barack Obama in the presidential race because she is white is no longer a part of the Obama campaign.

The Rev. Jeremiah Wright is no longer serving on the African American Religious Leadership Committee, campaign sources told CNN.

In another sermon, Wright had said America had brought the September 11 attacks upon itself.

Obama denounced some of Wright's sermons on Friday, telling CNN's Anderson Cooper: "These are a series of incendiary statements that I can't object to strongly enough."

Earlier Friday, before the announcement of Wright's departure from the Obama camp, the Illinois senator denounced some of the ministers's sermons, calling them "inflammatory and appalling."

"I categorically denounce any statement that disparages our great country or serves to divide us from our allies," Obama wrote on the liberal Web site Huffingtonpost.com about recently surfaced sermons from Wright -- his longtime pastor at the Trinity United Church of Christ.

"I also believe that words that degrade individuals have no place in our public dialogue, whether it's on the campaign stump or in the pulpit," Obama continued. "In sum, I reject outright the statements by Rev. Wright that are at issue."

Obama, during the CNN interview, said, "I just don't think it's necessary to talk about Senator Clinton or anybody in those terms." Watch Obama on CNN respond to sermons »

And, even though he has been a member of Trinity United for the past 20 years, Obama said he had never witnessed Wright making such statements.

"Had I heard those statements in the church, I would have told Reverend Wright that I profoundly disagree with them," Obama said, adding, "What I have been hearing and had been hearing in church was talk about Jesus and talk about faith and values and serving the poor."

The sermons in question became the subject of scrutiny earlier this week after being highlighted in an ABC News report.

At one December service, Wright argued Clinton's road to the White House is considerably easier than Obama's because of his skin color.

"Hillary was not a black boy raised in a single parent home. Barack was," Wright says in a video of the sermon posted on YouTube. "Barack knows what it means to be a black man living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people. Hillary! Hillary ain't never been called a '[see forum posting rules]!' Hillary has never had her people defined as a non-person." Watch Wright berate Clinton from the pulpit »

Wright, who retired from his post earlier this year, also says in the video, "Who cares about what a poor black man has to face every day in a country and in a culture controlled by rich white people?"

Still, Obama defended his 20-year relationship with Wright, saying that the pastor has served him in a spiritual role -- not a political one.

A sermon from Wright shortly after the September 11, 2001, terrorism attacks is also under scrutiny. In it he said America had brought on the attacks with its own practice of terrorism.

"We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye," he said. "We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant. Because the stuff we have done overseas has now brought right back into our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost."

In his statement Friday, Obama said he had not personally heard the controversial sermons.

"When these statements first came to my attention, it was at the beginning of my presidential campaign. I made it clear at the time that I strongly condemned his comments," Obama wrote. "But because Rev. Wright was on the verge of retirement, and because of my strong links to the Trinity faith community, where I married my wife and where my daughters were baptized, I did not think it appropriate to leave the church."

And in a 2003 sermon, Wright said of America's treatment of African-Americans: "The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people."God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme."

Obama and Wright have been close for years. Obama has been a member of Wright's church since his days in law school, and Obama's best-selling book, "The Audacity of Hope," takes its title from one of Wright's sermons.

But Obama also has long maintained he is at odds with some of Wright's sermons, and has likened him to an "old uncle" who sometimes will say things Obama doesn't agree with. He has also specifically denounced Wright's 9/11 comments.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/03/15 17:35:27


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There were people who dislike David Dukes speech's, so I guess the makes him like MLK to. I see your point, being disliked means you are probably in the right.

You never had to parse MLK's words or say, "What he really meant was..."

StormtrooperX: Can you cite any statistical evidence showing that people from any particular minority group have MORE educational or economic success than your average white American?

Not off the top of my head, but I know they are called Asians.

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Manchester, NH

Ahtman wrote:There were people who dislike David Dukes speech's, so I guess the makes him like MLK to. I see your point, being disliked means you are probably in the right.


That’s not what I wrote at all. It’s a complete straw man.

Ahtman wrote:You never had to parse MLK's words or say, "What he really meant was..."


How do you know? Were you there? Apparently some people did have a problem with what he said, since he was shot for it.

Ahtman wrote:
Mannahnin wrote: Can you cite any statistical evidence showing that people from any particular minority group have MORE educational or economic success than your average white American?


Not off the top of my head, but I know they are called Asians.


Nice. No numbers. Just toss in a racial stereotype without evidence.

Are you just trolling with this post?

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Albuquerque, NM

@gamefiend - So you dealt with adversity, bettered yourself despite opposition and came out the other end a stronger, more intelligent and apparently better paid. Good for you, honestly. Now, because you're black does that make it more impressive than if a white person did this?

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Albuquerque, NM

Mannahnin, if I told you I could give you a free education for whatever you wanted to do and then once you were finished with that you were guaranteed a job doing that would you take it? I have a very hard time believing you would not, yet I grew up with many people who did not even though the opportunity was right there. Now, does this make me a racist?

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NoVA

Stormtrooper X wrote:@gamefiend - So you dealt with adversity, bettered yourself despite opposition and came out the other end a stronger, more intelligent and apparently better paid. Good for you, honestly. Now, because you're black does that make it more impressive than if a white person did this?
Yes.

The point gamefiend is making (quite clearly, I might add) is that it's harder to be a black male in this country than any other gender/race combination. Having never walked a mile in his shoes, but having cohorts who have, I still recognize the realities of America. And his major solution is the one I support the strongest. Until kids turn 18, they should ALL have the same advantages. Funding for some schools is not equal to others. Those scholarships are supposed to redress the imbalance (like affirmative action, which I dislike, but understand completely), but they don't even begin to.

I was raised upper middle class white in SC, VA, ME, and RI. I had it pretty good. That doesn't make gamefiend better or worse than me, but it does mean he knows what he is talking about better than I do.

All of that said, I think the reverend used poor word choices, and spends too much time laying a groundwork for excuses, only to say they don't matter at the end. That might work for some congregants, but other might see too much emphasis on his issues. I think he overstates his case. But Obama already addressed this, so WHO CARES?
   
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Stormtrooper X wrote:@gamefiend - So you dealt with adversity, bettered yourself despite opposition and came out the other end a stronger, more intelligent and apparently better paid. Good for you, honestly. Now, because you're black does that make it more impressive than if a white person did this?


nope, and that's completely not the point I was making --it's rather unfortunate that that is your take-away. You explicitly make a point that minorities are more privileged than white america, and that is false. You cite these phantom programs that seem to give minorities everything while the poor, persecuted majority gets nothing. And, like I said before, I call bs on that, unless you point me to that magical bus.

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Albuquerque, NM

So because I dealt with all this growing up and I'm white it's all inconsequential? I have no idea what I'm talking about. My childhood was just a dream, a fictitious thing that never happened. I guess I should have just known better and just understood that because I'm a minority here I'm not a minority in the grand scheme of things.

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dienekes96 wrote:
All of that said, I think the reverend used poor word choices, and spends too much time laying a groundwork for excuses, only to say they don't matter at the end. That might work for some congregants, but other might see too much emphasis on his issues. I think he overstates his case. But Obama already addressed this, so WHO CARES?


Yup.

I agree with everything you said in your post, and especially this.

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Stormtrooper X wrote:So because I dealt with all this growing up and I'm white it's all inconsequential? I have no idea what I'm talking about. My childhood was just a dream, a fictitious thing that never happened.


No one here has denied your experiences, but when you start with the anecdotal (your life) and then move to the universal (the rest of America) you've got to expect to run into differing perspectives. Your statements aren't, "Why are the people around me like this?" They are "why are these minorities like this? Why do minorities have it so much better than me?" I can tell from your posts that your experiences have soured you --I don't know you so I can't say to what degree --but what you dealt with isn't all there is.

If, growing up where I did and seeing what I did, I then made the leap to "all white people are evil, racist donkey-caves", might you not have something to say about this? Wouldn't you think I was going a bit wild with my reasoning? Wouldn't you think it was a bit unfair?

Stormtrooper X wrote:
I guess I should have just known better and just understood that because I'm a minority here I'm not a minority in the grand scheme of things.


Don't go feeling sorry for yourself. You're just as free to say what you want as anyone on this forum is to say that he/she thinks you are wrong.

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Ahtman wrote:There were people who dislike David Dukes speech's, so I guess the makes him like MLK to. I see your point, being disliked means you are probably in the right.

You never had to parse MLK's words or say, "What he really meant was..."

StormtrooperX: Can you cite any statistical evidence showing that people from any particular minority group have MORE educational or economic success than your average white American?

Not off the top of my head, but I know they are called Asians.


Successful minority group Asians usually come from middle class backgrounds and
education and voluntarily migrate to America. Lower income group Asians usually
come from lower income backgrounds and migrate to America to flee dangerous
conditions...okay the middle class ones do, too, but your Cambodian who comes
to America as a laborer will, surprise surprise, have a harder time than the Filipino
nurse.

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Mannahnin wrote:
Ahtman wrote:There were people who dislike David Dukes speech's, so I guess the makes him like MLK to. I see your point, being disliked means you are probably in the right.


That’s not what I wrote at all. It’s a complete straw man.

You are the one who brought up the argument that being disliked doesn't mean you are wrong, you are the one who compared him to MLK, not I.

Ahtman wrote:
Mannahnin wrote: Can you cite any statistical evidence showing that people from any particular minority group have MORE educational or economic success than your average white American?


Not off the top of my head, but I know they are called Asians.


Nice. No numbers. Just toss in a racial stereotype without evidence.

Are you just trolling with this post?


No. Well maybe a little. It's called a joke. I understand your sense of humor resides somewhere up on the ivory tower where you can translate what bigoted preachers really meant to say, but it might not hurt to look for it.

malfred wrote:Successful minority group Asians usually come from middle class backgrounds and
education and voluntarily migrate to America. Lower income group Asians usually
come from lower income backgrounds and migrate to America to flee dangerous
conditions...okay the middle class ones do, too, but your Cambodian who comes
to America as a laborer will, surprise surprise, have a harder time than the Filipino
nurse.


Oh now your just not having any fun.

As far as black men having it the worst, black women would vehemently disagree with that.

This problem isn't really about race issues, it's about what effect has this guy and his more ludicrous beliefs have had an effect on a man who aspires to, and isn't far off from being the President of the United States. I think Obama is smarted then to believe that white people created AIDS to kill black people. Still it begs the question of why keep someone around your campaign that is going to say things like that? Fair or not this may be the thing that does the most harm to his chances. Even for Democrats it's hard to see a guy chanting God Damn the USA and not be upset, then find out he's an advisor to the candidate you like. This is only good for Hillary. The race issue here is just a red herring, like communism.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/03/15 23:26:35


Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







Sorry. Model minority is kind of a weird stereotype to inhabit.

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in us
Wicked Warp Spider





Knoxville, TN

I'm never one for jumping on the racial inequality bandwagon, but I have read a little bit about the "model minority" thing as it applies to Asians. When I was going to graduate school out in Denver, which has a large Asian, specifically Korean, population, the Asian student association had a little presentation on that one. Their claim is that while the average household income for Asian families is actually higher than White families nationally ( This part is apparently factual, at least they had data to support that), the average income of individuals is lower than whites ( though higher than blacks and Latinos ). Note that this is not my argument, but their assumption is that many Asians are employed in cooperative family enterprises which sort of dilutes the income of individuals a bit. They did not have data that specifically supported that last part. Now, being a scientist I am aware that the plural of anecdote is not data, but from my observations it seems that might be the case. I do not see any of that though being evidence for active discrimination on a nationwide level though.
   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






Something has been bugging me about this whole thing. While the Pastor may have had these ideas before, there doesn't seem to be any indication that he let loose with them at the pulpit until recently. Obama stated that he never heard things of the nature before and I tend to believe him. So it begs the question: Why now? You have a flock member that is running a good campaign and you take his knees out with things that can only damage him. I don't get it. Either the pastor was bought off, went over the edge, or thinks the US is so corrupt that he didn't want Obama to be president so sabotaged it. I don't really know what the reasons are, but I find it incredibly odd.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







Ahtman wrote:Something has been bugging me about this whole thing. While the Pastor may have had these ideas before, there doesn't seem to be any indication that he let loose with them at the pulpit until recently. Obama stated that he never heard things of the nature before and I tend to believe him. So it begs the question: Why now? You have a flock member that is running a good campaign and you take his knees out with things that can only damage him. I don't get it. Either the pastor was bought off, went over the edge, or thinks the US is so corrupt that he didn't want Obama to be president so sabotaged it. I don't really know what the reasons are, but I find it incredibly odd.


If I were to consult my Warren Ellis plot devices I'd say he was
bought off by the CIA and determined to not only take out Obama,
but Martyr him in the process...

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Grignard wrote:
Iorek wrote:
Grignard wrote:I don't shop at Citgo stations, not that that will make any difference.


It does make a difference. It shows that you're willing to put your money where your mouth is and not be a hypocrite, and that's a rare and good thing these days. Lead by example!

(I too refuse to shop at Citgo.)



The only thing is I really don't know how the petroleum industry works. Probably most of the others buy Venezuelan crude. Someone told me that British Petroleum doesn't, but I don't know if that is true. I have a hard time believing they rely totally on North Sea drilling. It is just that from what I understand, Citgo is a nationalized company of the Venezuelan government.


Venezuelan crude is what is called heavy/sour crude. There are only a certain amount of refineries that can actually process the stuff. Citgo has some of thos refineries as do others. But at the end of the day every dollar not spent at Citgo is a dollar that doesn't directly go to Chavez.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

malfred wrote:
Ahtman wrote:Something has been bugging me about this whole thing. While the Pastor may have had these ideas before, there doesn't seem to be any indication that he let loose with them at the pulpit until recently. Obama stated that he never heard things of the nature before and I tend to believe him. So it begs the question: Why now? You have a flock member that is running a good campaign and you take his knees out with things that can only damage him. I don't get it. Either the pastor was bought off, went over the edge, or thinks the US is so corrupt that he didn't want Obama to be president so sabotaged it. I don't really know what the reasons are, but I find it incredibly odd.


If I were to consult my Warren Ellis plot devices I'd say he was
bought off by the CIA and determined to not only take out Obama,
but Martyr him in the process...


Actually its my understanding the "God Damn America" speech was made shortly after 9/11. So this has been going on for a fair bit of time.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Wicked Warp Spider





Knoxville, TN

jfrazell wrote:

Venezuelan crude is what is called heavy/sour crude. There are only a certain amount of refineries that can actually process the stuff. Citgo has some of thos refineries as do others. But at the end of the day every dollar not spent at Citgo is a dollar that doesn't directly go to Chavez.


Isnt the United States one of the few places with "sweet" crude? Thats Pennsylvania oil isnt it?
   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






jfrazell wrote:Actually its my understanding the "God Damn America" speech was made shortly after 9/11. So this has been going on for a fair bit of time.


I'm not sure there is really a good time to do that speech, though that wasn't a good time for sure either. I thought I had heard on the news that it was about a month ago that the sermon was given.

Grignard wrote:Isnt the United States one of the few places with "sweet" crude? Thats Pennsylvania oil isnt it?


At one time perhaps, but I think we've gone through just about all our continental oil deposits.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Grignard wrote:
jfrazell wrote:

Venezuelan crude is what is called heavy/sour crude. There are only a certain amount of refineries that can actually process the stuff. Citgo has some of thos refineries as do others. But at the end of the day every dollar not spent at Citgo is a dollar that doesn't directly go to Chavez.


Isnt the United States one of the few places with "sweet" crude? Thats Pennsylvania oil isnt it?


Light crudes are the easy stuff. They literally have a lighter API and be refined much more easily. Also easier to get out of the ground, all things being equal.
Sweet and light crudes are the stuff you (used) to get out of the US, the Middle East, and fair Alaska. Its Ironic that the heaviest stuff on earth (Canadaian oil sands) is located next to some Alaskan good stuff. Its also ironic that the US has bans on offshore drilling off the Southeast coast, which is being epxloited by the Chinese via Cuba.

The majority of the remaining oils being discovered are the heavy crudes. They require a lot more fun to process economically. Its the great joke that people shout we went to war for oil in Iraq when the US could go south and north and have some of the largest prospective reserves, plus I'll put good Mexican food against anything, anywhere, anytime


Edit: Looks like Team Clinton has reviewed the documents and settled some minor issues before revealing their tax filings
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,338294,00.html

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/03/17 17:45:56


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Crazed Witch Elf




Albuquerque, NM

Pretty sure you guys have heard this. If not, here it is. I've been listening to Rush Limbaugh and now Sean Hannity cry about this (not that I'm agreeing with them, just listening to the radio) and it's kind of funny.

PHILADELPHIA - "We the people, in order to form a more perfect union."

Two hundred and twenty one years ago, in a hall that still stands across the street, a group of men gathered and, with these simple words, launched America's improbable experiment in democracy. Farmers and scholars; statesmen and patriots who had traveled across an ocean to escape tyranny and persecution finally made real their declaration of independence at a Philadelphia convention that lasted through the spring of 1787.

The document they produced was eventually signed but ultimately unfinished. It was stained by this nation's original sin of slavery, a question that divided the colonies and brought the convention to a stalemate until the founders chose to allow the slave trade to continue for at least twenty more years, and to leave any final resolution to future generations.
Of course, the answer to the slavery question was already embedded within our Constitution - a Constitution that had at is very core the ideal of equal citizenship under the law; a Constitution that promised its people liberty, and justice, and a union that could be and should be perfected over time.

And yet words on a parchment would not be enough to deliver slaves from bondage, or provide men and women of every color and creed their full rights and obligations as citizens of the United States. What would be needed were Americans in successive generations who were willing to do their part - through protests and struggle, on the streets and in the courts, through a civil war and civil disobedience and always at great risk - to narrow that gap between the promise of our ideals and the reality of their time.

This was one of the tasks we set forth at the beginning of this campaign - to continue the long march of those who came before us, a march for a more just, more equal, more free, more caring and more prosperous America. I chose to run for the presidency at this moment in history because I believe deeply that we cannot solve the challenges of our time unless we solve them together - unless we perfect our union by understanding that we may have different stories, but we hold common hopes; that we may not look the same and we may not have come from the same place, but we all want to move in the same direction - towards a better future for of children and our grandchildren.

This belief comes from my unyielding faith in the decency and generosity of the American people. But it also comes from my own American story.

I am the son of a black man from Kenya and a white woman from Kansas. I was raised with the help of a white grandfather who survived a Depression to serve in Patton's Army during World War II and a white grandmother who worked on a bomber assembly line at Fort Leavenworth while he was overseas. I've gone to some of the best schools in America and lived in one of the world's poorest nations. I am married to a black American who carries within her the blood of slaves and slaveowners - an inheritance we pass on to our two precious daughters. I have brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, uncles and cousins, of every race and every hue, scattered across three continents, and for as long as I live, I will never forget that in no other country on Earth is my story even possible.

It's a story that hasn't made me the most conventional candidate. But it is a story that has seared into my genetic makeup the idea that this nation is more than the sum of its parts - that out of many, we are truly one.

Throughout the first year of this campaign, against all predictions to the contrary, we saw how hungry the American people were for this message of unity. Despite the temptation to view my candidacy through a purely racial lens, we won commanding victories in states with some of the whitest populations in the country. In South Carolina, where the Confederate Flag still flies, we built a powerful coalition of African Americans and white Americans.

This is not to say that race has not been an issue in the campaign. At various stages in the campaign, some commentators have deemed me either "too black" or "not black enough." We saw racial tensions bubble to the surface during the week before the South Carolina primary. The press has scoured every exit poll for the latest evidence of racial polarization, not just in terms of white and black, but black and brown as well.

And yet, it has only been in the last couple of weeks that the discussion of race in this campaign has taken a particularly divisive turn.
On one end of the spectrum, we've heard the implication that my candidacy is somehow an exercise in affirmative action; that it's based solely on the desire of wide-eyed liberals to purchase racial reconciliation on the cheap. On the other end, we've heard my former pastor, Reverend Jeremiah Wright, use incendiary language to express views that have the potential not only to widen the racial divide, but views that denigrate both the greatness and the goodness of our nation; that rightly offend white and black alike.

I have already condemned, in unequivocal terms, the statements of Reverend Wright that have caused such controversy. For some, nagging questions remain. Did I know him to be an occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy? Of course. Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely - just as I'm sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed.

But the remarks that have caused this recent firestorm weren't simply controversial. They weren't simply a religious leader's effort to speak out against perceived injustice. Instead, they expressed a profoundly distorted view of this country - a view that sees white racism as endemic, and that elevates what is wrong with America above all that we know is right with America; a view that sees the conflicts in the Middle East as rooted primarily in the actions of stalwart allies like Israel, instead of emanating from the perverse and hateful ideologies of radical Islam.

As such, Reverend Wright's comments were not only wrong but divisive, divisive at a time when we need unity; racially charged at a time when we need to come together to solve a set of monumental problems - two wars, a terrorist threat, a falling economy, a chronic health care crisis and potentially devastating climate change; problems that are neither black or white or Latino or Asian, but rather problems that confront us all.

Given my background, my politics, and my professed values and ideals, there will no doubt be those for whom my statements of condemnation are not enough. Why associate myself with Reverend Wright in the first place, they may ask? Why not join another church? And I confess that if all that I knew of Reverend Wright were the snippets of those sermons that have run in an endless loop on the television and You Tube, or if Trinity United Church of Christ conformed to the caricatures being peddled by some commentators, there is no doubt that I would react in much the same way
But the truth is, that isn't all that I know of the man. The man I met more than twenty years ago is a man who helped introduce me to my Christian faith, a man who spoke to me about our obligations to love one another; to care for the sick and lift up the poor. He is a man who served his country as a U.S. Marine; who has studied and lectured at some of the finest universities and seminaries in the country, and who for over thirty years led a church that serves the community by doing God's work here on Earth - by housing the homeless, ministering to the needy, providing day care services and scholarships and prison ministries, and reaching out to those suffering from HIV/AIDS.

In my first book, Dreams From My Father, I described the experience of my first service at Trinity:
"People began to shout, to rise from their seats and clap and cry out, a forceful wind carrying the reverend's voice up into the rafters….And in that single note - hope! - I heard something else; at the foot of that cross, inside the thousands of churches across the city, I imagined the stories of ordinary black people merging with the stories of David and Goliath, Moses and Pharaoh, the Christians in the lion's den, Ezekiel's field of dry bones. Those stories - of survival, and freedom, and hope - became our story, my story; the blood that had spilled was our blood, the tears our tears; until this black church, on this bright day, seemed once more a vessel carrying the story of a people into future generations and into a larger world. Our trials and triumphs became at once unique and universal, black and more than black; in chronicling our journey, the stories and songs gave us a means to reclaim memories that we didn't need to feel shame about…memories that all people might study and cherish - and with which we could start to rebuild."

That has been my experience at Trinity. Like other predominantly black churches across the country, Trinity embodies the black community in its entirety - the doctor and the welfare mom, the model student and the former gang-banger. Like other black churches, Trinity's services are full of raucous laughter and sometimes bawdy humor. They are full of dancing, clapping, screaming and shouting that may seem jarring to the untrained ear. The church contains in full the kindness and cruelty, the fierce intelligence and the shocking ignorance, the struggles and successes, the love and yes, the bitterness and bias that make up the black experience in America.

And this helps explain, perhaps, my relationship with Reverend Wright. As imperfect as he may be, he has been like family to me. He strengthened my faith, officiated my wedding, and baptized my children. Not once in my conversations with him have I heard him talk about any ethnic group in derogatory terms, or treat whites with whom he interacted with anything but courtesy and respect. He contains within him the contradictions - the good and the bad - of the community that he has served diligently for so many years.

I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother - a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe.

These people are a part of me. And they are a part of America, this country that I love. Some will see this as an attempt to justify or excuse comments that are simply inexcusable. I can assure you it is not. I suppose the politically safe thing would be to move on from this episode and just hope that it fades into the woodwork. We can dismiss Reverend Wright as a crank or a demagogue, just as some have dismissed Geraldine Ferraro, in the aftermath of her recent statements, as harboring some deep-seated racial bias.

But race is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now. We would be making the same mistake that Reverend Wright made in his offending sermons about America - to simplify and stereotype and amplify the negative to the point that it distorts reality.

The fact is that the comments that have been made and the issues that have surfaced over the last few weeks reflect the complexities of race in this country that we've never really worked through - a part of our union that we have yet to perfect. And if we walk away now, if we simply retreat into our respective corners, we will never be able to come together and solve challenges like health care, or education, or the need to find good jobs for every American.

Understanding this reality requires a reminder of how we arrived at this point. As William Faulkner once wrote, "The past isn't dead and buried. In fact, it isn't even past." We do not need to recite here the history of racial injustice in this country. But we do need to remind ourselves that so many of the disparities that exist in the African-American community today can be directly traced to inequalities passed on from an earlier generation that suffered under the brutal legacy of slavery and Jim Crow.

Segregated schools were, and are, inferior schools; we still haven't fixed them, fifty years after Brown v. Board of Education, and the inferior education they provided, then and now, helps explain the pervasive achievement gap between today's black and white students.
Legalized discrimination - where blacks were prevented, often through violence, from owning property, or loans were not granted to African-American business owners, or black homeowners could not access FHA mortgages, or blacks were excluded from unions, or the police force, or fire departments - meant that black families could not amass any meaningful wealth to bequeath to future generations. That history helps explain the wealth and income gap between black and white, and the concentrated pockets of poverty that persists in so many of today's urban and rural communities.

A lack of economic opportunity among black men, and the shame and frustration that came from not being able to provide for one's family, contributed to the erosion of black families - a problem that welfare policies for many years may have worsened. And the lack of basic services in so many urban black neighborhoods - parks for kids to play in, police walking the beat, regular garbage pick-up and building code enforcement - all helped create a cycle of violence, blight and neglect that continue to haunt us.

This is the reality in which Reverend Wright and other African-Americans of his generation grew up. They came of age in the late fifties and early sixties, a time when segregation was still the law of the land and opportunity was systematically constricted. What's remarkable is not how many failed in the face of discrimination, but rather how many men and women overcame the odds; how many were able to make a way out of no way for those like me who would come after them.

But for all those who scratched and clawed their way to get a piece of the American Dream, there were many who didn't make it - those who were ultimately defeated, in one way or another, by discrimination. That legacy of defeat was passed on to future generations - those young men and increasingly young women who we see standing on street corners or languishing in our prisons, without hope or prospects for the future. Even for those blacks who did make it, questions of race, and racism, continue to define their worldview in fundamental ways. For the men and women of Reverend Wright's generation, the memories of humiliation and doubt and fear have not gone away; nor has the anger and the bitterness of those years. That anger may not get expressed in public, in front of white co-workers or white friends. But it does find voice in the barbershop or around the kitchen table. At times, that anger is exploited by politicians, to gin up votes along racial lines, or to make up for a politician's own failings.

And occasionally it finds voice in the church on Sunday morning, in the pulpit and in the pews. The fact that so many people are surprised to hear that anger in some of Reverend Wright's sermons simply reminds us of the old truism that the most segregated hour in American life occurs on Sunday morning. That anger is not always productive; indeed, all too often it distracts attention from solving real problems; it keeps us from squarely facing our own complicity in our condition, and prevents the African-American community from forging the alliances it needs to bring about real change. But the anger is real; it is powerful; and to simply wish it away, to condemn it without understanding its roots, only serves to widen the chasm of misunderstanding that exists between the races.

In fact, a similar anger exists within segments of the white community. Most working- and middle-class white Americans don't feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race. Their experience is the immigrant experience - as far as they're concerned, no one's handed them anything, they've built it from scratch. They've worked hard all their lives, many times only to see their jobs shipped overseas or their pension dumped after a lifetime of labor. They are anxious about their futures, and feel their dreams slipping away; in an era of stagnant wages and global competition, opportunity comes to be seen as a zero sum game, in which your dreams come at my expense. So when they are told to bus their children to a school across town; when they hear that an African American is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college because of an injustice that they themselves never committed; when they're told that their fears about crime in urban neighborhoods are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time.

Like the anger within the black community, these resentments aren't always expressed in polite company. But they have helped shape the political landscape for at least a generation. Anger over welfare and affirmative action helped forge the Reagan Coalition. Politicians routinely exploited fears of crime for their own electoral ends. Talk show hosts and conservative commentators built entire careers unmasking bogus claims of racism while dismissing legitimate discussions of racial injustice and inequality as mere political correctness or reverse racism.

Just as black anger often proved counterproductive, so have these white resentments distracted attention from the real culprits of the middle class squeeze - a corporate culture rife with inside dealing, questionable accounting practices, and short-term greed; a Washington dominated by lobbyists and special interests; economic policies that favor the few over the many. And yet, to wish away the resentments of white Americans, to label them as misguided or even racist, without recognizing they are grounded in legitimate concerns - this too widens the racial divide, and blocks the path to understanding.

This is where we are right now. It's a racial stalemate we've been stuck in for years. Contrary to the claims of some of my critics, black and white, I have never been so naïve as to believe that we can get beyond our racial divisions in a single election cycle, or with a single candidacy - particularly a candidacy as imperfect as my own.

But I have asserted a firm conviction - a conviction rooted in my faith in God and my faith in the American people - that working together we can move beyond some of our old racial wounds, and that in fact we have no choice is we are to continue on the path of a more perfect union.

For the African-American community, that path means embracing the burdens of our past without becoming victims of our past. It means continuing to insist on a full measure of justice in every aspect of American life. But it also means binding our particular grievances - for better health care, and better schools, and better jobs - to the larger aspirations of all Americans -- the white woman struggling to break the glass ceiling, the white man whose been laid off, the immigrant trying to feed his family. And it means taking full responsibility for own lives - by demanding more from our fathers, and spending more time with our children, and reading to them, and teaching them that while they may face challenges and discrimination in their own lives, they must never succumb to despair or cynicism; they must always believe that they can write their own destiny.

Ironically, this quintessentially American - and yes, conservative - notion of self-help found frequent expression in Reverend Wright's sermons. But what my former pastor too often failed to understand is that embarking on a program of self-help also requires a belief that society can change.

The profound mistake of Reverend Wright's sermons is not that he spoke about racism in our society. It's that he spoke as if our society was static; as if no progress has been made; as if this country - a country that has made it possible for one of his own members to run for the highest office in the land and build a coalition of white and black; Latino and Asian, rich and poor, young and old -- is still irrevocably bound to a tragic past. But what we know -- what we have seen - is that America can change. That is true genius of this nation. What we have already achieved gives us hope - the audacity to hope - for what we can and must achieve tomorrow.

In the white community, the path to a more perfect union means acknowledging that what ails the African-American community does not just exist in the minds of black people; that the legacy of discrimination - and current incidents of discrimination, while less overt than in the past - are real and must be addressed. Not just with words, but with deeds - by investing in our schools and our communities; by enforcing our civil rights laws and ensuring fairness in our criminal justice system; by providing this generation with ladders of opportunity that were unavailable for previous generations. It requires all Americans to realize that your dreams do not have to come at the expense of my dreams; that investing in the health, welfare, and education of black and brown and white children will ultimately help all of America prosper.
In the end, then, what is called for is nothing more, and nothing less, than what all the world's great religions demand - that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us. Let us be our brother's keeper, Scripture tells us. Let us be our sister's keeper. Let us find that common stake we all have in one another, and let our politics reflect that spirit as well.

For we have a choice in this country. We can accept a politics that breeds division, and conflict, and cynicism. We can tackle race only as spectacle - as we did in the OJ trial - or in the wake of tragedy, as we did in the aftermath of Katrina - or as fodder for the nightly news. We can play Reverend Wright's sermons on every channel, every day and talk about them from now until the election, and make the only question in this campaign whether or not the American people think that I somehow believe or sympathize with his most offensive words. We can pounce on some gaffe by a Hillary supporter as evidence that she's playing the race card, or we can speculate on whether white men will all flock to John McCain in the general election regardless of his policies.

We can do that.
But if we do, I can tell you that in the next election, we'll be talking about some other distraction. And then another one. And then another one. And nothing will change.

That is one option. Or, at this moment, in this election, we can come together and say, "Not this time." This time we want to talk about the crumbling schools that are stealing the future of black children and white children and Asian children and Hispanic children and Native American children. This time we want to reject the cynicism that tells us that these kids can't learn; that those kids who don't look like us are somebody else's problem. The children of America are not those kids, they are our kids, and we will not let them fall behind in a 21st century economy. Not this time.

This time we want to talk about how the lines in the Emergency Room are filled with whites and blacks and Hispanics who do not have health care; who don't have the power on their own to overcome the special interests in Washington, but who can take them on if we do it together.

This time we want to talk about the shuttered mills that once provided a decent life for men and women of every race, and the homes for sale that once belonged to Americans from every religion, every region, every walk of life. This time we want to talk about the fact that the real problem is not that someone who doesn't look like you might take your job; it's that the corporation you work for will ship it overseas for nothing more than a profit.

This time we want to talk about the men and women of every color and creed who serve together, and fight together, and bleed together under the same proud flag. We want to talk about how to bring them home from a war that never should've been authorized and never should've been waged, and we want to talk about how we'll show our patriotism by caring for them, and their families, and giving them the benefits they have earned.

I would not be running for President if I didn't believe with all my heart that this is what the vast majority of Americans want for this country. This union may never be perfect, but generation after generation has shown that it can always be perfected. And today, whenever I find myself feeling doubtful or cynical about this possibility, what gives me the most hope is the next generation - the young people whose attitudes and beliefs and openness to change have already made history in this election.

There is one story in particularly that I'd like to leave you with today - a story I told when I had the great honor of speaking on Dr. King's birthday at his home church, Ebenezer Baptist, in Atlanta.
There is a young, twenty-three year old white woman named Ashley Baia who organized for our campaign in Florence, South Carolina. She had been working to organize a mostly African-American community since the beginning of this campaign, and one day she was at a roundtable discussion where everyone went around telling their story and why they were there.

And Ashley said that when she was nine years old, her mother got cancer. And because she had to miss days of work, she was let go and lost her health care. They had to file for bankruptcy, and that's when Ashley decided that she had to do something to help her mom.
She knew that food was one of their most expensive costs, and so Ashley convinced her mother that what she really liked and really wanted to eat more than anything else was mustard and relish sandwiches. Because that was the cheapest way to eat.

She did this for a year until her mom got better, and she told everyone at the roundtable that the reason she joined our campaign was so that she could help the millions of other children in the country who want and need to help their parents too.
Now Ashley might have made a different choice. Perhaps somebody told her along the way that the source of her mother's problems were blacks who were on welfare and too lazy to work, or Hispanics who were coming into the country illegally. But she didn't. She sought out allies in her fight against injustice.

Anyway, Ashley finishes her story and then goes around the room and asks everyone else why they're supporting the campaign. They all have different stories and reasons. Many bring up a specific issue. And finally they come to this elderly black man who's been sitting there quietly the entire time. And Ashley asks him why he's there. And he does not bring up a specific issue. He does not say health care or the economy. He does not say education or the war. He does not say that he was there because of Barack Obama. He simply says to everyone in the room, "I am here because of Ashley."

"I'm here because of Ashley." By itself, that single moment of recognition between that young white girl and that old black man is not enough. It is not enough to give health care to the sick, or jobs to the jobless, or education to our children.
But it is where we start. It is where our union grows stronger. And as so many generations have come to realize over the course of the two-hundred and twenty one years since a band of patriots signed that document in Philadelphia, that is where the perfection begins.


Imperial Guard

40k - 6-12-0
City Fight - 0-0-0
Planetstrike - 0-0-1
Apocolypse - 4-2-1  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



NoVA

I didn't hear it. I did read it. I was disappointed the media forced him to do this, but happy in a way.

As I have said, I'm not in love with Obama, so do not consider this an endorsement. However, that text is a speech no other politician has had the stones to make in decades. He addressed a fundamental problem within the United States cogently, and from multiple angles. Where others fear to tread, he walks (lightly, I admit, but it needs that).

A brilliant president once said:
Public sentiment is everything. With public sentiment, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed.

Obama is putting concepts in the public domain (for discussion and debate) that others won't. I appreciate that, even as blowhards on both sides will attack him and skew his words.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/03/18 20:49:41


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Glorious speech that actually failed to answer why:
1) he never repudiated Wright previously
2) after now admitting he was there during some of these rants he never left the church
3) why he still supports Wright.

Marvelous bit of sidestepping though, I'll give him that.

Its like being asked why you go to Klan meetings and respond by giving a discertation on the history of race, without answering why you actually go to Klan meetings.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
 
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