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Fulgrim killed 2 primarchs (Ferrus Manus was not mentioned in wight_widow's post)- more than any other primarch. In martial excellence, as well as pride, he is unmatched. Angron's brutality and sheer bloodlust is second to none. Not surprisingly, these traits are also reflected in their respective legions, and a fierce rivalry has developed. A mimicry of the Ruinous Powers themselves, perhaps.

Of course, for all of their honor and bravery, no loyalist primarch can match the abilities of a warp enhanced killing machine. Fortunately, the Chaos followers seem to spend as much time warring with one another as with the Imperium, and their disorganization and petty rivalries ensure that the Emperor's servants will endure.

All the respect for Night Haunter is a bit baffling considering how little he accomplished. Claiming to see imminent death and then doing nothing to stop it is hardly impressive. His insanity was less compelling drive and more WTF?. It's like some obstinent, but perhaps gifted, teenager with a bunch of piercings and skull tattoos among a bunch of world heavy weight boxing champions. Simply outclassed. Likewise, the Lion seems a bit overrated. Sure, he's arrogant and quick to backstab but were it not for Russ's rather low intellect Johnson would probably be dead.

Lion and Night Haunter just happen to have better backstories than most. They were the two Primarchs who raised themselves - all the others had some kind of an adoptive family, in spite of the uniform toughness of their upbringings. ('cept for Gulliman, the aristocratic little SOB) Lion spent his whole "childhood" in a forest beating the crap out of huge monsters, and Haunter pretty much did the same except in an urban jungle with human predators. Not enough to top a great kill record, or being raised on - literally - a world of death or fire, but enough, in spite of their emo-esque potential - you'll notice they each got a star, an Lion a plus sign too - to have some kind of acknowledgement accorded to them. Maybe Sanguinius should top Haunter - especially if we go with the "how tough are his boys?" argument - but *shrug* they both sort of fall into the willing martyr category regardless. Plus, the fact that his Chapter pretty much became a power-armoured penal legion is a definite stroke in his favour on both the cool and tough meters - hardened criminals and psychopaths are in a little bit of a different category to lead than rough but basically honourable tribesmen, hardy feudal people, or blue-clad brainwashed model citizens. Though moot to say, the Imperial Fists are actually in the strange position of having had a first company captain whose skills easily topped those of their Primarch.

Dorn's first captian was better then he was? Really?

Though not a contemporary of his Primarch, Lysander was and remains the best reason to paint your Space Marines yellow.

The two toughest primarchs were Plunderin' Peter the Purple Pirate Primarch and Ninja Nick and Nebulous Ninja Primarch.

they were so awesome the Space Emperor deleted all records of them so the other primarchs would stop weeping like little girls every time they were mentioned.

It's true!

Though I believe Lysander is dead.

Though I believe Lysander is dead.

Damn it! Stupid internet!

Posted By Thanatos_elNyx on 09/07/2006 12:58 AM
I'm guessing Fulgrim in a pure numbers count. He beat 2 Primarches and none of the others have that record.

Beat? Guilliman was poisoned and is held in stasis untill he can be cured. As far as I know the only Primarchs that have been killed are Sanguinius, Night Haunter and Horus. 2-1, the loyalists win. There is no proof about the deaths of any other Primarchs. All the rest are either Daemon Princes, lost in space, or sleeping in stasis and hidden in an underground palace somewhere. Even Alpharius' death was propaganda spread out by the Alpha Legion themselves to keep his identity and whereabouts a secret.

As to the original question, Horus was superior to other Primarches in every way so he would and could have defeated any one of them either in a battle of their legions or in a duel. All his brothers respected him as the one who stands out from the crowd. Comparing normal Space Marines the background material indicates that if only pure melee skill was considered then the Space Wolves would have been the most powerful, since they were such frenzied berserkers. Pure melee skill just doesn't happen to mean anything, victories in battles do, and that's when you have to look at the brains of the Primarch and his officers. Considering that the Iron Warriors totally destroyed the entire Imperial Fists legion, Kor Phaeron and the Word Bearers kept Ultramarines busy during heresy, Alpha Legion had their way with the Ultramarines in the aftermath, World Eaters punched through the Blood Angels defence of the Imperial Palace like it was never there, Raven Guard and Iron Hands were all but wiped out, the Emperor's Children were honoured by the Emperor himself for being perfect examples of a Space Marine, and the Luna Wolves just happened to be the best of the best in everything, I'd say all the real top spots go to the traitors.

The Horus Heresy story is a tragedy about the Emperor's stupidity, nothing else. Clearly it was him who messed up the whole thing and with a few pushes, twists and turns here and there he could've prevented anything from happening and all the supermen would have lived happily everafter. He personally messed up Angron by not allowing him to die with his gladiators on his homeworld's surface and afterwards not managing to console him for his loss in any other way than giving him something else to think about by sending him to an eternal war. He personally arranged the Thousand Sons to be scattered. He's also personally responsible for Iron Warriors turning to Chaos by keeping them shell shocked for centuries. He lost the Word Bearers because he didn't let Lorgar worship the Emperor, and of course this lead to him losing Horus too. The Imperium wouldn't need Inquisitors if it had Word Bearers Apostles preaching the glory of the empire in all corners of the galaxy. Night Haunter should have been killed immediately upon discovery, especially when the Emperor saw what the psychoboy had done to his world. There was absolutely no sense in giving a madman a legion of insane sadist clones, but he did.

Of course it is also true that most of the traitor legions seem like incredible crybabies, having the intellectual capacity of a three year old and harbouring murder on an apocalyptic scale if their daddy once gave candy to their brothers instead of them. All of them seemed to forget that waging war in the Emperors' name was their job, and most of the time the reasons for turning against the Emperor seem very naive.

where did the whole Dorns first Captain was better than him come from??

Posted By Therion- on 09/22/2006 1:26 AM

Posted By Thanatos_elNyx on 09/07/2006 12:58 AM
I'm guessing Fulgrim in a pure numbers count. He beat 2 Primarches and none of the others have that record.

Beat? Guilliman was poisoned and is held in stasis untill he can be cured. As far as I know the only Primarchs that have been killed are Sanguinius, Night Haunter and Horus. 2-1, the loyalists win.

Incorrect. Ferrus Manus was eviscerated by Fulgrim and this was perhaps Fulgrim's most defining moment of betrayal. Guilliman is alive about as much as the Emperor is. Realistically, he is a casualty. Even if it is granted that he was somehow salvageable (unlikely), he was clearly defeated by Fulgrim, just as the big red cyclops was defeated by Russ.

Not incorrect at all. Neither of them are dead, and Guilliman for example is in perfect condition if it wasn't for a small wound on his neck where the poison got in, and the adepts believe that he seems to be healing slowly. Since you mentioned the Emperor, of course he isn't dead either. Fulgrim's most defining moment of betrayal is pink armour and women's underwear, and his Emperor's Children didn't do Horus much good in the heresy at all.

Gulliman still got his behind walloped by said cross dresser. The World Eaters were at least as good as the Space Wolves pre-heresy, and the Blood Angels are definitely better pos- heresy, at least in the "ravening psycho rage" department.

There needs to be at least two 'ravening psycho ragers' on the 'Good' side at any one time.

Perfect condition? The only reason he is in stasis is because the 'small wound' would have killed him if it wasn't for stasis. The Emperor is as 'alive' as any brain dead vegative state person on a feeding tube. Just because they can keep the body 'working' doesn't mean that the soul hasn't left a long time ago. Like Dick Chenney.

the emporor is in a coma and any day now he iwll come to. well thats what they have been say ing all these years.

Posted By Therion- on 09/22/2006 2:32 PM
Not incorrect at all. Neither of them are dead, and Guilliman for example is in perfect condition if it wasn't for a small wound on his neck where the poison got in, and the adepts believe that he seems to be healing slowly. Since you mentioned the Emperor, of course he isn't dead either. Fulgrim's most defining moment of betrayal is pink armour and women's underwear, and his Emperor's Children didn't do Horus much good in the heresy at all.

According to the Horus Heresy novels, Manus' head was presented to Horus as a show of Fulgrim's loyalty. The body was never recovered.

There is no indication that Fulgrim wore any undergarments, much less women's. He is portrayed much more as a sadistic libertine than a simple transvestite. His superhuman ferocity and savagery in battle indicates no lack of aggression and he also displays a twisted cunning that delights in inflicting suffering.

The EC's effectiveness in the Siege of Terra is irrelevant- we are not dicussing chapter effectiveness.

You know someone is going to say that Manus' isn't dead because his body was never recovered... I'm just waiting.

Manus isn't dead because his body was never recovered.

There, are you happy?

Reportedly he went on to form the Sleepy Hollow chapter (named after their homeworld), but they were supposedly wiped out by Ichabod Crane (such a nasty special character). Rumors of pumpkins and Hessian mercenaries are unconfirmed.

Yes... I am strangely happy. I don't know why but I am.

The Emperor is dead, quite thoroughly so. His soul remains tied to his body, but he is dead.

He somewhat lives on in the Star Child, though.

Oh, and Blood Angels were better pre-heresy. Sanguinius and his Legion were amazingly powerful, and possessed the most superior gene-seed to any other legion before the psychic feedback caused by the Primarch's death.

Not better than the Boys in Blue though, but then the EC also hade flawless geneseed. GO GO RUSS, flaws then , flaws now, Thsta what you call a stable mutaion or flaw, not like the ones that trned to chaos or the BA, a little thing like the death of there leader and they go all depresseive and psycho. one minute all happy clappy and the next frothing at th mouth and going dolaly.

@Velict: You men they were better when they were getting their clocks cleaned by the Traitors on Terra and having their Primarch carved like pork loin, back before they started freaking out and wearing black or putting assault cannons in their Destructors? ALL Chapters were BIGGER pre-heresy - no contest there - but on a man-to-man level, I still think the Blood Angels got pimped in Horus' wake.

@jmurph which horus heresy book you talking about?? its not in the first 2 and i have never read or heard of any fluff to support what you say. however i have yet to read the 3rd book.

The Night Lords Geneseed is still supposed to rather pure if that's some indication of their power.

Plus, loads of people got their arses kicked by Hours and his Legion

The Night Lords Geneseed is still supposed to rather pure if that's some indication of their power.

Plus, loads of people got their arses kicked by Hours and his Legion

So the 4th Art book shows the Ba started freeking out from when Sang got knocked out by the bloodthirster. Week ass geenseed.

I have too agree night haunter was tough Nut ( they had to take a assassin too him) thats tough

Posted By Kultofthebonedragons on 12/20/2006 5:18 PM
I have too agree night haunter was tough Nut ( they had to take a assassin too him) thats tough

Dude, why in the hell do you  keep raising up threads that are several months old and adding absolutely zero content to them when you've been repeatedly asked not to? Jesus.

I agree. Threadnomancy is bad, m'kay.