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Just read descent of Angels. It's kind of like that old saying a "Diamond in the Rough" but differrent. It's more like the "Floating turd in the toilet bowl". You want to look away and flush it but you can't resist that one peek which scars you for the rest of the day. Am I being harsh, yes, but if you are a die hard DA fan and have a lot of respect for the history of the chapter ect. don't read this book. This book did for thier fluff like thier current codex did for thier army, killed it. More than three quarters of the book delt with a insignifigant member of the future legion growing up going on a knightly quest *yawn*. He finaly slays a great lion of Caliban who has eaten 200 people (Lions of Tsabo anyone) after slaying a great beast that only one other person has slain (Lionel) he is allowed to become a full Knight. This is no great task BTW at least for Lionel after he finds out a 15yr kid can do what he did. The novel drags on to the ultimate climax of taking on some greater Daemon who I like to call Cthulu Bob because he's all tentacles reaching thru the other side of the warp snatching up DA and pulling them thru. Good thing thier Psykers closed the gate because they were running out of DA to snatch and would have eventually snatched up Lionel Ritchie er Jonson and that would have been a travesty. No wonder half the chapter turned to chaos thier a bunch of boring sods who have horrible fluff besides Luther who kind of sniveled about always being second waah, waah, waah. Grow a pair and kill that pompus fool Lionel I say. To fellow die hard fluff loving DA fans prepare to get made fun of even more. Kind of like when the new codex came out but worse. Hopefully by posting this not as many people pick this novel up and save you some humiliation but now the haters will probably pick it up for ammunition.

Yep, I'd say thats a fair description....you've been a bit too complimentary, though...and I wish you'd really said what I read between the lines of your review!

The only point I disagree on though, this hasn't done anything for the DA fluff, be it good or bad....and thats more the tragedy! After spending a day reading this book you come away none the wiser, and the DA look even more pointless (fluff wise) then before.....

When-ever I think about the DA, I can't help but think, wouldn't it have been so much simpler to own up right at the beginning and say "hey, some of our guys turned bad, we sorted them, and we confirm the chapter is 100% behind da emporer!".....there, job done.

I mean, there wasn't even an Inquisition around to chase them when the schism happened......

A few friends have read the novel and have come to the same conclusions as myself in case any think I am unfair in my critisims. I don't see even now what this book really has to do with the Heresy fluff BTW.

Ha, well I didn't hate the thing, but it was definitely pretty weak overall. The Beasts may have been the best part, and things got so vastly different so fast when the Imperials arrived it was a real drop-kick to all of the story that had come before (perhaps the point?). I too wasn't feeling the connection to the Heresy much, and also didn't think it told much of anything about the Dangels in any way (as noted above). A real 'meh' but it got me through my Thanksgiving flights.

- Salvage

Just to break ranks:

I liked it. I recognize it as what it is (part one, I'll only be really dissappointed if it doesn't get a follow up at some point) so a lack of conclusivity is fine.

As to fluff development, I think it was pretty good. Gave some nice insites into why the Dark Angels end up the way they were, coming from a monastic knightly existance.

The only part that grated on me was the foreshadowing, and the foreshadowing, and the foreshadowning. It's been in all of the Horus Heresy, but Descent of Angels was just dripping with it.

Feor wrote:The only part that grated on me was the foreshadowing, and the foreshadowing, and the foreshadowning. It's been in all of the Horus Heresy, but Descent of Angels was just dripping with it.

Agreed, that was particularly vomitous in DoA

- Salvage

I already said everything I have to say about this book at http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/205007.page

My biggest disappointment about this book was that it didn't advance the story of the Horus Heresy the way that the other HH books did. I didn't really care too much about the DA before I read the book, so any enjoyment the book offered for dedicated DA fans was lost on me. I think it was a huge tease to include this book in the Horus Heresy series.

Seems like a underhanded way to sale a book by slapping Horus Heresy on it IMO. You can completely skip this book and its signifigance to the Heresy won't be lost.

It looks to me like there'll be at least one more book about the DA, since there was no real conclusion to the story, and I can pretty much guess how it's going to roll out if there is.

lifeafter wrote:I already said everything I have to say about this book at http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/205007.page

My biggest disappointment about this book was that it didn't advance the story of the Horus Heresy the way that the other HH books did. I didn't really care too much about the DA before I read the book, so any enjoyment the book offered for dedicated DA fans was lost on me. I think it was a huge tease to include this book in the Horus Heresy series.

The trend in GW fluff for the last 10 years is nothing happens. New empires and races can appear out of nowhere, and contribute to the general lack of anything that progresses a storyline.

When in doubt wear flashy armor, scream in rage at the heavens, but DO nothing except reference established fluff.

GW flufff has become the densest concentration of irrelevance in the Universe.

lifeafter wrote:I already said everything I have to say about this book at http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/205007.page

My biggest disappointment about this book was that it didn't advance the story of the Horus Heresy the way that the other HH books did. I didn't really care too much about the DA before I read the book, so any enjoyment the book offered for dedicated DA fans was lost on me. I think it was a huge tease to include this book in the Horus Heresy series.

I couldnt agree more with you.
It better be a prequel for a book that really tells the story of the DA. This one just didnt cut it. I wouldnt say its crap though, it just doesnt fit in with the other books.

the book sucked sorry can't sugar coat it whats with #$#^^ Cypher thats what got me still no answer

Eh, I'll still read it...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

tesseract wrote:

lifeafter wrote:I already said everything I have to say about this book at http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/205007.page

My biggest disappointment about this book was that it didn't advance the story of the Horus Heresy the way that the other HH books did. I didn't really care too much about the DA before I read the book, so any enjoyment the book offered for dedicated DA fans was lost on me. I think it was a huge tease to include this book in the Horus Heresy series.

The trend in GW fluff for the last 10 years is nothing happens. New empires and races can appear out of nowhere, and contribute to the general lack of anything that progresses a storyline.

When in doubt wear flashy armor, scream in rage at the heavens, but DO nothing except reference established fluff.

GW flufff has become the densest concentration of irrelevance in the Universe.

WHilst I'm no fan of BL books (in fact I'm somewhat of an anti-fan, with a dozen or so exceptions), I really dislike your views on "fluff advancement". It's a strange thing that I've seen on the 'net a few times - some desire to have the background "go somehwere". The 40k timeline stretches over thousands of years. I don't understand what conclusions you want to see. If you read the history of the world, would you ask yourself "What's the point of this? WHere is it going?"

WHilst I'm no fan of BL books (in fact I'm somewhat of an anti-fan, with a dozen or so exceptions), I really dislike your views on "fluff advancement". It's a strange thing that I've seen on the 'net a few times - some desire to have the background "go somehwere". The 40k timeline stretches over thousands of years. I don't understand what conclusions you want to see. If you read the history of the world, would you ask yourself "What's the point of this? WHere is it going?"

The advancement that I'm talking about is the advancement of events that made up the Horus Heresy. The 5 books that came before DoA were sequential accounts of the major Historical events that were related to Horus' turn to chaos. When I read the Horus Heresy I do ask myself "What's the point of this? Where is it going?" because it is a portrayal of a very specific historical event.

If I'm reading a history about something I want to know what the elements were that made up that history and how they interacted to result in the final outcome. I may not care about the point or where it's going with a history of the whole world, but I would with a history of WWII.

When I read other BL books, I agree with your sentiment. I'm not concerned with what the point of the story or how it "advances" the fluff of the 40k universe, because I know the point of the scope of the story is limited to the characters and setting in the book. Even still, for a long series of books, focus and point is kind of important. I stopped reading the Gaunt's Ghosts series because the series bored me when I didn't know where the series was going.

I think people are just seeking details from BL novels. The fluff of the 40k universe is very intricate and the novels just add more layers to its complexity Some of the elements of the novels even get transferred to the Game. Dan Abnett says himself that his favorite contribution to the 40k universe has been the voxcaster.

Maybe readers are expecting too much, from the generic 40k novels, but I don't see anything wrong in expecting from from future Horus Heresy books the amount of detail previous books have given. That's why the Dark Angels book was so upsetting to me.

I guess I am gonna be the oddball out on this one. What I have read so far I really like, it may not be much of a 40k story, but it is an excellent story. The parallelism between the main character and his cousin, and Johnson and Luther is really well done, and the "Cypher" references are really neat, and make that character a lot more interesting to me.

There's a trend in the HH books lately to fill in massive swathes of back story before further advancing the story. Chronologically in the story line we are up to the Emperor knowing that all hell is about to break loose, the Grey Knights being formed from the remnants of the Eisensteins(sp) crew, and some serious business is about to go down. Now, stop. Hold on. What about the other chapters? Up until Flight of the Eisenstien(which I highly recommend) the only chapters given a good thorough look at are EC, DG, WE, BA, and the LW.

We still have plenty to discuss, the Night Guard, The Smurfs, the Pups, Alpha Legion, Raven Guard, Salamanders, 1kSons, White Scars, Word Bearers, and the Iron Warriors, not to mention the possible storm of gak they can unload on us with the two Lost Legions coming in to play.

There's massive amounts of story telling here that's just waiting to be written. I like it. I hope they write more story books and let the overall plot simmer a little bit.

I think that the Salamander and Raven Guard chapters were taken out of the story at the Drop Site Massacre in Fulgrim, but you're right about stories being needed for the other chapters. The next book is going to be about Alpha Legion, and the one after that about the smurfs and their interactions with the Word Bearers. I'm looking forward to both these books, especially Legion because I really enjoy Dan Abnett's writing.

I have to say that I was very disappointed with it. The only interesting part for me was the moment the emperor appeared. Off the top of my head is the time line a little bit out on this one? I'm reading the 1st book again and the crusade has been going on for over 200 years at the point the Emperor goes back to Terra, so surely the DA's must of been around for nearly all that time, so it's Luthor being sent back to Calaban abit to early?

Jazz is for Losers wrote:

tesseract wrote:

lifeafter wrote:I already said everything I have to say about this book at http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/205007.page

My biggest disappointment about this book was that it didn't advance the story of the Horus Heresy the way that the other HH books did. I didn't really care too much about the DA before I read the book, so any enjoyment the book offered for dedicated DA fans was lost on me. I think it was a huge tease to include this book in the Horus Heresy series.

The trend in GW fluff for the last 10 years is nothing happens. New empires and races can appear out of nowhere, and contribute to the general lack of anything that progresses a storyline.

When in doubt wear flashy armor, scream in rage at the heavens, but DO nothing except reference established fluff.

GW flufff has become the densest concentration of irrelevance in the Universe.

WHilst I'm no fan of BL books (in fact I'm somewhat of an anti-fan, with a dozen or so exceptions), I really dislike your views on "fluff advancement". It's a strange thing that I've seen on the 'net a few times - some desire to have the background "go somehwere". The 40k timeline stretches over thousands of years. I don't understand what conclusions you want to see. If you read the history of the world, would you ask yourself "What's the point of this? WHere is it going?"

My comments were a bit snarky. I can do a better job of stating my feelings about GW fluff.

I don't desire conclusions, but rather movement in the 40K Universe. When you turn on the news you see a daily tapestry of current events that shape our world. Our world has a rich history, but history has no relevance outside of it's context with the here-and-now. Those who fail to learn history are condemned to repeat it, but this implies that history's relevance is it's context with the present and future.

So.....GW established an amazing fluff history, and then has done nothing....created no present or future. Why read space opera dramas set in a Universe that seems unaffected by them? Many have challenged GW to give the fluff a current context that will breath life into it's past fluff. GW's attempted such things, but have always resorted to concluding the story arcs into bland irrelevance.

I agree that the real question is "Where is this going?" With all the comics, magazines, books, and soon to be computer RPGs at GW's disposal.....I hope that they will eventually get something in gear.

I just finished reading it last night. I wouldn't say it's a complete waste of time but, let's just say, I'm SO happy to be starting Dan Simmons' Endymion today!

The introduction was great and, while reading it I kept thinking, "this is an excellent addition to the HH sidestories - a nice quick summarization of things before we get into the Heresy". And, then Scanlon rehashes the exact same info for the first 1/2 of the book! When we FINALLY get to the Emperor's arrival, there are already Dark Angels (WTF!?) and they have a librarian who knows about the warp and what a danger it is (WTF!?). And, towards the end, this same Librarian has been secret developing an Anti-Warp Creature Super Awesome Sound Egg Device (TM)! This when just 3 chapters earlier we're reminded that the Imperium doesn't know much about technology and takes it for granted. And the typos and everything else.

Also, Scanlon's (mis)treatment of the ONLY FEMALE character in the book was disturbing. Now, I'm not a crazy feminist or anything, but no other character's death is treated in such horrifyingly graphic detail. NONE - not even the enemies! I won't overanalyze this silly little book but that whole sequence was, IMHO, drenched in misogyny.

My only question, who were the watchers in the wood guarding the warp gate?

Were they eldar?

I read over the DA codex when it was redone and enjoyed it to the point of starting DA. I've also read over this book by Scanlon.... When it finally I came out, I rushed to the nearest book store, picked it up and almost threw it across the room. It's written by Scanlon (hope I'm spelling his name right).... He wrote 15 hours, which while keeping me interested in the book, was crap because of the ending, and that he couldn't stay on topic.

It's true the book does nothing for the heresy in general. I was shocked to see that a race of people still lived a feral life, yet had weapons that were crude bolters, and chainswords for christs sake! I was truely hoping the book would go like this:
Book 1 - Before the Emperor
Book 2 - After the Emperor
Book 3 - Why Luther opened fire on the Lion, and did Luther really turn to chaos, or was he not sure which side the Lion was on

I look forward to the next book to get back to Dan Abbnett's writing style.

My only question, who were the watchers in the wood guarding the warp gate?

Were they eldar?

All that matters is thier alien Xenos and DA are in with them. This also fits in with thier fluff about never allying and hating aliens you see?

The book is crap and I really hope this is not the direction they are taking with the series. The end was total trash.

- G

I have to agree, even though Im not a DA fan I was really disappointed and I was expecting abit more and not a huge flash back with awhole lot of nothin. It would have been alot better the way Datadep5 put it, and more intune to the way the novels were going right now. If I reread this series I would just skip over it since it had noting to really add to the over all story.

Really cheapens the over all heresy is the consensus I am getting then. Glad I wasn't alone in my opinion. Really saddens me actually because I have always held the DA in such high esteem from the old RT days to present. They have such cool looking units and fluff and the novel made them so mundane IMO. The Ravenwing knights being the bestest and bravest crap was shoddy also. Would have been better to save that until post heresy to fill in to hunt the fallen ect.

I didn't find the book that bad. But I have been doing Dark Angles since 87, so have a little interest in them. I felt sometimes that fluff was inserted into the book with a big sledge hammer, and some chapters were almost like a serial TV show with a lot of story repeated to make sure you caught it. We aren't that daft,.. well mostly.

I liked the book for what it is. It is a side story of the Heresy, and it is the back story for what leads to the demise of the Dark Angels. For followers of the DAs, it fills in a lot of back story that has been hinted at for 20 odd years.

It's interesting that people are making comments about inaccuracies in the book, and yet they aren't being accurate themselves.

If they wanted to change the fluff more, they could have, but they have kept to some things that have been around for a long time. The Dark Angel marines were the first legion, but they didn't become the Dark Angels until the Emperor found Johnson on Caliban. The previous DA book made a big point about the difference in the teran marines and the caliban marines and it even covers it a little more in this book.

The Ravenwing have been around since long before the Heresy, in fluff established when the Ravenwing came into being in WD 96. Formed during the first crusades, and lost to history they were "Equipped and trained for high speed reconnaissance, the Ravenwing specialize in hit-and-run warfare and search-and-destroy missions". They originally rode bullock jet cycles, and even made an appearance in the game Space Marine in the 90s that was set in the Heresy.

If you have read the books you would also know that psykers and "librarians" did exist, and the Edicts of Nikaea governed the use of them, which was pre-heresy. Sorcery was outlawed during this time, and it is what set Magnus off on his path. But psykers in marine legions had been around for quite some time before that.

Not the best book, but not the worst book, and it give DA players a lot more fluff to go on. I have based my pre-heresy Dark Angels on a bit of that old fluff, and called the "The Order", which was taken from an old short story long ago in a WD. So bits and pieces of all the stuff jammed into the book have always been there, just not all in one place like this. I will be sorely disappointed if this isn't a lead in to what happens with the DA later on. But even then, to most DA readers it isn't a waste of time it gives us a good chunk of why. We just need now to know how...

It also sets up more mysteries around both Cypher (Different men through the ages that take up the mantel, and they lose their identity. They are also the keepers of the DA knowledge) and with the Watchers (they seem to know of chaos, and help protect(?) against it)

And he kills the lion because he has an awesome psychic power, not because he is a 15 year old boy. It just seems like you don't want to like the book because it isn't part of the main plot, it covered most that you complained about in itself rather well.

I really like all the books so far. It is really fleshing out the depths of the Imperium. Not all of them are as enjoyable to read as others, but they are well worth my time.

Toreador wrote:

I really like all the books so far. It is really fleshing out the depths of the Imperium. Not all of them are as enjoyable to read as others, but they are well worth my time.

Plus (unless I'm mistaken <--- and this is highly likely!), it is the first time in the HH series that the Emperor makes an "in story" appearance and actually speaks too!

The description of his effect on "normal" people is quite good as well.

Overall, I agree with T., not the best, but not the worst BL book, by far...

dragonlady wrote:My only question, who were the watchers in the wood guarding the warp gate?

Were they eldar?

Why eldar?

Why not skink servants of the Slann/Old Ones...

No wonder half turned to chaos they were associating with Jawa's.