Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Is there nothing or nobody who can do anything about how your TV networks run over there? Great shows or shows with potential are cancelled mid season because they aren't pulling in 'x' amount of millions of viewers, they are considered failures. Interesting that these 'failures' still carry on making the TV studios money when sold to other countries and produced on DVD.

Firefly and the The Dresden Files are 2 great shows that were cancelled mid season. Farscape was brilliant. Blade had potential. I've not seen The Journeyman, but I gather that this was another good show that was cancelled. I know people like Rupert Murdoch like to take a pot shot at the tv license fee, but at least it means a show doesn't have to be in the top 10 for it to survive.

There is so much drivel out there, that it is a shame to lose the good stuff.

Firefly was bad planning by Fox(Friday Night Lineup) coupled with Whedon HATES WRITING TV. Go fig. Farscape was on for 4-5 years. Journeyman was cut mostly because of the writers strike, just like everything that started in Fall '07 including the drivel. Can't attest to Blade.

They were cancelled because their ratings were craptacular, vs. their costs or other shows that could be put on that higher prospects. In the US if you can't compete you're out. Thats how it should be.

But how do you come to this "craptacular" figure? Why does everything have to be about making huge profits? You basically are saying stuff the minority, we're only interested in the majority plus lots of $$$$$'s.

Sometimes it’s just terrible decisions by dumb execs. Sometimes it’s simply a smart business decision.

Most of the time it’s the latter. Shows need to get ratings, and some just aren’t going to get there.

Firefly was the former. Its only inherent weakness was that it needed a two hour premier to properly introduce the characters. It’s a great premier though. Fox had no faith in said premier, so they made Joss tweak the second episode (The Train Job) to be the first aired, and forced specific formulaic elements (such as the protagonist must appear shirtless). It’s not a bad episode, but forcing its use as the pilot prevented viewers from getting the proper introduction to the characters. Fox then repeatedly preempted the show for the World Series, and kept bouncing around the day on which it was shown. This is three different stupid moves if you’re trying to help a show gain and grow an audience. Firefly could have been as big as Buffy if it had been handled right.

Wolfstan wrote:But how do you come to this "craptacular" figure? Why does everything have to be about making huge profits? You basically are saying stuff the minority, we're only interested in the majority plus lots of $$$$$'s.

Nielsen ratings, I'd assume. And, yeah, generally, most companies/networks ARE only interested in the majority+ $$$$$$(X2). Luckily, there's Digital Cable/Satellite that panders to the minority with stuff like G4, Nick GAS, Boomerang, Anime Network, several movie channels, etc.

Have to say that given the interviews I read and watched I have to agree that the TV exec's do have a lot to answer for. I wonder if the likes of Monty Python, Little Britain, Dr Who, Blakes 7 would of survived if we'd had them over here.

I doubt many of those would have survived in the UK if ratings were a significant issue.

Remember you have some nice shows there but you have massive amounts of CENSORED of your own as well.

Don´t let me start on Japanese TV where most of the shows are:
- someone half-famous goes someplace and eats a local delicacy, rinse and repeat ad nauseum. :((
or
- someone half-famous goes to a group "funny" interview, food is involved at some point of the program. :((

M.

CENSORED!!?? This from a country that had a heart attack over a revealed breast that was half covered and had a tassle on it. I couldn't see Torchwood ever being made in the US, just image your religous groups seeing that one, men openly kissing on the screen with sex with men & women (plus aliens) being accepted as the norm.

Life on Mars started on BBC 3, a digital channel. It had time to establish itself then moved on to the main stream channel. The follow up to this Ashes to Ashes was put out on the main BBC channel from start, because of the success of Life on Mars. There's a comedy show called Hyperdrive that runs on BBC3, it had it's second run last year. It's not main stream yet, but the BBC are still making it.

The really annoying thing is that you have the talent over there to produce stuff, but it is really restricted by this need for shows to reach this magical viewing figure. Surely one of the networks out there could bleed off some of the profits and invest in a channel that can be used in the same way as our BBC3 channel. Most of the stuff that was cancelled was still able to make the studios money, but not in the amounts they wanted. You know guys, the capitlist way of working is not always the answer.

A BBC type of channel would never work. Look how much every one kicked off over that Janet Jackson incident and these channels have no public money going in to them. A federal funded TV channel wouldn't stand a chance, religous groups would want moral control and your right wing groups wouldn't trust anything government controlled.

Much of the 'niche' type channels are being bought out by larger networks. For instance, before season 7 or 8 of SG-1, the sci-fi channel was bought out by NBC, a combination of stagnant storyline for the show, and lower ratings caused SG-1 to be cancelled by season 10. I think also think that with the early success of the BSG pilot miniseries (3 episodes) corporate decisions have driven the last 2-3 seasons of bsg into being a drama, rather than action show. Count the number of Galactica/viper/base star/raider fights in each season, you should see a definitive decline up until now.

Wolfstan wrote:Is there nothing or nobody who can do anything about how your TV networks run over there? Great shows or shows with potential are cancelled mid season because they aren't pulling in 'x' amount of millions of viewers, they are considered failures. Interesting that these 'failures' still carry on making the TV studios money when sold to other countries and produced on DVD.

Firefly and the The Dresden Files are 2 great shows that were cancelled mid season. Farscape was brilliant. Blade had potential. I've not seen The Journeyman, but I gather that this was another good show that was cancelled. I know people like Rupert Murdoch like to take a pot shot at the tv license fee, but at least it means a show doesn't have to be in the top 10 for it to survive.

There is so much drivel out there, that it is a shame to lose the good stuff.

It's people like you that keep us from having quality programming like "American Idol" and "America's Next Top Model" on TV 24/7....wait a minute, they ARE on 24/7.

(the reasons you stated are exactly why my television is nothing more than a plasma DVD player and not reception for anything more than Comedy Central and the History Channel.)

Don't forget HBO, Showtime, and Cartoon Network (for Adult Swim).

Wolfstan wrote:CENSORED!!?? This from a country that had a heart attack over a revealed breast that was half covered and had a tassle on it. I couldn't see Torchwood ever being made in the US, just image your religous groups seeing that one, men openly kissing on the screen with sex with men & women (plus aliens) being accepted as the norm.

Life on Mars started on BBC 3, a digital channel. It had time to establish itself then moved on to the main stream channel. The follow up to this Ashes to Ashes was put out on the main BBC channel from start, because of the success of Life on Mars. There's a comedy show called Hyperdrive that runs on BBC3, it had it's second run last year. It's not main stream yet, but the BBC are still making it.

The really annoying thing is that you have the talent over there to produce stuff, but it is really restricted by this need for shows to reach this magical viewing figure. Surely one of the networks out there could bleed off some of the profits and invest in a channel that can be used in the same way as our BBC3 channel. Most of the stuff that was cancelled was still able to make the studios money, but not in the amounts they wanted. You know guys, the capitlist way of working is not always the answer.

A BBC type of channel would never work. Look how much every one kicked off over that Janet Jackson incident and these channels have no public money going in to them. A federal funded TV channel wouldn't stand a chance, religous groups would want moral control and your right wing groups wouldn't trust anything government controlled.

You misinterpret. Censored means garbage for lack of a more colorful but appropriate term.

For a little US entertainment
Sopranos
BSG
B5
Rome
and who can forget the awesomeness of Mythbusters.

Also about firefly.... don't forget FOX aired most of the episodes in the wrong order. Kinda kills continuity when you repeatedly do that.

Nothing new with that, I just got Twin Peaks on DVD and wow I miss that show.

Miguelsan wrote:Don´t let me start on Japanese TV where most of the shows are:
- someone half-famous goes someplace and eats a local delicacy, rinse and repeat ad nauseum. :((
or
- someone half-famous goes to a group "funny" interview, food is involved at some point of the program. :((

M.

Yeah Japan produces a LOT of drek. But there are some gems in there, like one of the first Reality shows Denpa Shonen (sp?) where 2 comedians were given a few $100 and told to go from Hong Kong to the UK overland(!!). Now that's a gutsy show, no staged challenges there, this is 'feed yourself in Turkmenistan where you don't speak the language and have no cash'.

And of course a lot of the classic anime series we know came out of Japanese broadcast TV.

They also have a good system that they make shows to last 20 or so episodes and then they're done. If it's a hit then the creators will get more work but the show itself is over. So no embarasments like the Cosby Show that went on for a few years too many. They don't feel the need to milk a concept dry and have faith in their ability to make and sell something new.

Anyway, the thinking in TV is starting to change as DVD, cable and internet revenues grow. Futurama just came back as a DVD-based series. Babylon 5 also just had a direct to DVD revival. So there's hope.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
They also have a good system that they make shows to last 20 or so episodes and then they're done. If it's a hit then the creators will get more work but the show itself is over. So no embarasments like the Cosby Show that went on for a few years too many. They don't feel the need to milk a concept dry and have faith in their ability to make and sell something new.

I'm assuming you are talking about live television because anime seems to go on and on and on and on and on and on. How long has Gundam been at it? how many Tenchi's? Ranma? Dragon Ball?

Yup, they go on and on, but most series unless they are a hit as Kid_Kyoto said are scheduled for one season only (26 chapters) if they do well, more seasons are developed and if they become real popular then we have One Piece (200+ chapters and growing), DragonBall (I feel dizzy just thinking) and other never ending stories.

M.

Ahtman wrote:
I'm assuming you are talking about live television because anime seems to go on and on and on and on and on and on. How long has Gundam been at it? how many Tenchi's? Ranma? Dragon Ball?

Yeah it's more live action but even the anime is planned for one season arcs and further seasons are stand alone sequels not direct continuations.

I remember in the 90s when Sailor Moon ended, at the time it was probably the most popular cartoon on TV but after 5 seasons they decided to go out on top.

the next day every Sailor Moon toy and book and product was out of the stores and replaced with Cutie Honey stuff. Just amazing.

Well, first off outside of PBS american Networks are owned by corporations, for whom, by law, profit has to be a motivating factor in their decisions.

Second, as a general rule, the more expensive a show is, the bigger audience (or more affluent audicence, the West Wing Rule) is required to keep it on the air. For all the flak that Fox takes over killing Firefly and wondering why it died, the really amazing part is that Fox greenlight a talky, pricy sci-fi western starring all unknowns. While money can't always buy quality, the sets, costumes, and CGI were simply top rate, and a quality rarely seen outside of Film and american TV.

Third, and while TV network executives aren't the most sympathetic people, they do stick their necks out for shows that show promise. X-files had a rough first season, as did Seinfeld, MASH, and Star Trek. Family Guy was actually cancelled before being brought back. HBO churns out top right product, while even the schlocky cop shows like CSI and Law and Order are far better than their counterparts even 10 years ago.

Finally, and I'll try to leave the soap box out of it, but allowing the free market to kill or save shows (or any product) means while we don't always get the best stuff, we get the stuff that people want. There's a whole library of law written on the 1st amendment, and in the end it boils down to this: Government can't tell people what to say. If Fox wan'ts to show American Idol, the goverment can't really stop them. (of course, things get more complicated because technically the US owns the airwaves and the EM spectrum, and as a leasee of the government, Fox has to play by their rules. But the principle is still pretty solid.)

This is a wordy answer to the OP, but it's a complicated question with complicated answers. In addition, attacking the worst of US television is like me assuming the London Tabloids are the high water mark of British Journalism.

Sorry, I'm not attacking US TV in general as they do produce good stuff, as already mentioned. It's just frustrating to see good shows die due to a lack of understanding or as I mentioned before, hitting a viewing level.

Finally watched a few episodes on Firefly (Sci Fi marathon). Sci-Fi old West? It was ok, but I was expecting a good bit more from the old fan hype about it.

I still mourn Firefly and the Tick.

Two things about American TV. The networks are always evaluating, "does this new show make more money than a rerun of Simpsons/Law&Order/etc in the same time slot?" And two, it appears that most network executives are too stupid to 'get' good tv like Firefly and the Tick. So, they think the rest of America is too stupid to 'get' it as well, no audience, and it's gone.

OK, three things. Reality tv/game shows are big hits with networks because they're cheap. But, they have no after market. So, they make money now, but not later through residuals. And corporations tend to focus on the now, not the later.

Some good points dietrich. I wouldn't say that executives don't get shows like the Tick as much as they fear that "it won't play in Peoria." I'm not saying that executives are highly cultured, but rather that they probably don't watch the lowest common denominator stuff. These are folks with JDs and MBAs, and so even if uncultured, they're probably in the upper third to quarter of intelligence.

The point remains that not only does a show need to make more money then it costs, but it needs to make more money then everything else that is offered. Important note.

and to Wolfstan: I apologize for sounding so offended and snide. On the internet, nobody knows you're just goofing.

I liked Firefly, I just kind of wish there was a few more episodes in the inner territories so that it didn't quite feel like live-action Outlaw Star sans magic meets Wild Wild West.

The best thing that ever happened to Firefly was being canceled. It was decent, but being canned made it mythic.

The show failed, partially because Fox mishandled it, and mostly because no one cared about it. It managed to get a nationally released film that, again, NO ONE CARED about. I like Firefly and Serenity, but boy do I despise Browncoats (not directed at any member in this thread). They make Star Wars fanatics look positively well-rounded and perceptive.

I'm with you there. I don't think the show would have been so fondly regarded if it had been allowed to run on and on and on past the point where the ideas were still fresh and cool.
American TV is fine. My three favourite shows are Dr. Who, Supernatural and House. So 66% american.
RTE couldn't make a decent show if they tried, so I'm happy to have access to decent stuff from elsewhere.

It's a tough show to sell, as it's an odd twist on a semi-niche market. But the writing was top-notch, and the characters were great. It also played very well with women, which is unusual for sci-fi. It died because it was mishandled and wasn't given time to build the audience. Polonius has a good point that the budget was probably a significant factor there.

Annoying fans are still annoying, but I think Whedon's shown enough TV writing chops to for us to have faith that the show would just get stronger. He knows pacing and story arcs. The origin of the Reavers was planned to be the big reveal at the end of the second season. Firefly got stronger as the season progressed; even in its first season, episodes like Bushwhacked and Out of Gas were as good or better than any sci-fi I’ve ever seen on TV.

I was a Trek fan when I was a kid, and a Next Gen fan as a young adult, but if you look at them now original Trek had only a few good episodes, and the first two seasons of Next Gen were crap. It didn’t really hit its stride until the 4th or 5th.

Jfrazell- definitely try to catch the pilot/intended first episode- Serenity (same name as the movie) at some point. The show's significantly character-driven, so having a proper introduction to the characters helps.

I did like the Serenity movie. I was a bit put off by the horses and people talking, well, like I have a tendency to speak. Any Southerner would understand the lost civil war theme-its very 1870's West.

OTT but what was the problem with the Alliance?

Mannahnin wrote:It's a tough show to sell, as it's an odd twist on a semi-niche market. But the writing was top-notch, and the characters were great. It also played very well with women, which is unusual for sci-fi. It died because it was mishandled and wasn't given time to build the audience. Polonius has a good point that the budget was probably a significant factor there.

Annoying fans are still annoying, but I think Whedon's shown enough TV writing chops to for us to have faith that the show would just get stronger. He knows pacing and story arcs. The origin of the Reavers was planned to be the big reveal at the end of the second season. Firefly got stronger as the season progressed; even in its first season, episodes like Bushwhacked and Out of Gas were as good or better than any sci-fi I’ve ever seen on TV.

I honestly think Whedon's best writing was behind him. I watched some of the Firefly's on Sci-Fi's marathon yesterday (for the second time). He's definitely a TV Hall of Famer, but there were some real groaners on the episodes I saw. It played well with women because Whedon pussifies his men, and Firefly gave women not one Sam/Diane relationship, but TWO. And then played it up using previous brilliance from earlier shows (Inara's breakdown when Mal sleeps with her hooker friend is just rebaked Willow from S3 of Buffy when she learns Xander knocked boots with Faith). Trust me...I know my Buffy and Angel. Whedon is special, but his seams were showing late in Buffy, Angel, and Firefly.

I love Whedon...he's polished early-Claremont New X-Men. But Firefly definitely showed it's cracks, and I don't think it had enormous amounts of untapped potential. That said, I'm sure it's superior to drek like Stargate and Terminator: Sarah Conner Chronicles. Being the best sci-fi on TV doesn't mean much, sadly.

And Browncoats are WAY worse than annoying fans. They are truly the most off-putting fans I've ever seen!