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I believe the last "official" standing on the Flesh Tearers is that they are a successor to the Blood Angels (at least, according to their Index Astartes article).

I'm pretty sure that the custodes pre-date the space marines (they appear in a flashback in the False Gods book as guardians in the room where the Primarchs were created).

As to the Grey Knights, well I have my theories...

Posted By nobody on 06/26/2006 3:50 PM
I believe the last "official" standing on the Flesh Tearers is that they are a successor to the Blood Angels (at least, according to their Index Astartes article).

Yes, yes. Good, good.

Eaters my friend, Eaters. While the Flesh Tearers are well defined, the Flesh Eaters are a bit murky in their fluff. Hence the speculation.

Want one of the smallest of hints as to who one of the two lost primarchs were? Well..... he's a human god in one of the other GW games... carried a giant hammer made by some short people..... founded a nation called something very close to "Imperium"........ Spoiler highlight to readit's Sigmar you fools!

I prefer to know more about the fluff. the Necron 'Dex is IMO one of the best books in that matter. at least know I know that Orks weren't created by Khorne

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You coulda figured this out years ago by reading the lizardman dex

thats a bit to smart for GW.  i have not read the necron codex,  but i dont really go for this whole old ones or the ctan thing, its bollo9cks.  its new fluff,  i dont like the way they just randomly make stuff up and kill off original stuff as the old timers who remember it from when they were young get old married and forget,  then you get the little kids coming up with there crap fluff they have misread or heard from the red shirts and try tell you how it is an you just think F off you spotty greasy haired little Pr/ck
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It's definatly not new fluff, and you'd of known that too if you had realised that Warhammer and Warhammer 40k are connected in the same time frame, and read any of the fluff about the old ones in the Warhammer books

@Hexx: As far as I know, the first reference of the C'tan was a throwaway line in a 2nd ed. rulebook, namely "the quiescent perils of the C'tan." The C'tan were named again when the Callidus assassin was first unveiled in 2nd ed.

@beef: While it's not explicit, the fluff about the Old Ones ("cold-blooded wisdom," creators of the warp gates, masters of astromancy, etc.) points to them being the Old Slann from the original RT fluff. While the C'tan are new, it makes sense that the Old Slann would have had some adversaries.

@everyone: The lost SM legions are likely a nod to the historical lost Roman legions.

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The old ones created the slann, the orks, the skinks, the krox, the saurus.... just about every living thing in the unniverse.... the old ones however..... are in no way slann

The old ones created the slann, the orks, the skinks, the krox, the saurus.... just about every living thing in the unniverse.... the old ones however..... are in no way slann

Well that's solved!

Seriously though, the problem is that you're mixing 40K and FB fluff. FB fluff now makes a distinction between the Old Ones and Old Slann (although note that in earlier FB editions, the Old Slann were the Old Ones).

But we have no similiar distinction with the "Old Ones" in the 40K fluff. The two main 40K references we have are the original Slann fluff, which established them as galaxy's former master race, and the Old One fluff in the Necron codex which happens to sound a whole lot like the Slann.

And you can't assume 40K and FB share the same universe...GW's never made any claims to that end.

Posted By gorgon on 06/27/2006 7:22 AM
And you can't assume 40K and FB share the same universe...GW's never made any claims to that end.

Certain employees did. But that has all been swept under the rug AFAIK.

Never happened. 40K and Fantasy are completely seperate.

Oops, my bad, got the two confused.

Does anyone have some info on the Slann from RT days? I'm a bit murky on it and don't have the book. Are they the Old Ones, or are the Slann a creation of the Old ones?

There were no "Old Ones" in the original 40K fluff (or WFB, for that matter). The Slann in RT represented a semi-feral version of the Old Slann, who were the galaxy's most advanced race. They were highly psychic and were the first to master the warp and build warp gates. The RT book explains that for some unknown reason the Old Slann's empire disappeared as they lost all their desire for conquest and expansion, scattered and just settled down on backwater planets. The Slann list in RT represented these latter-day Slann, who were still highly psychic and had access to advanced weaponry, although they seemed like a bunch of primitives at first glance.

It was later that the "Old Ones" were introduced to 40K, although snippets in the Necron codex make them sound very Slann-like.

Slann were a full army in 3rd edition WFB before getting the Squat treatment in 4th, although the Old Slann were still mentioned in the fluff and were the Old Ones you know today. In 5th ed, the Lizardman book "resurrected" the Slann as an army of Lizardmen led by the fat Slann, who were now the servants of the Old Ones instead of the master race themselves.

Note that this repositioning of the Slann was never done explicitly in the 40K fluff. In fact, they haven't been mentioned by name in the 40K fluff in a long, long time. The Old Ones in the Necron codex do sound a heckuva lot like the Old Slann, however...especially when you consider the line about "cold-blooded wisdom." If the Old Ones are the Old Slann, the scattering of the Slann describes in the RT book also makes sense, given that the Necron book explains that the Enslavers had the Old Ones on the run.

Posted By blue loki on 06/27/2006 8:23 AM

Posted By gorgon on 06/27/2006 7:22 AM
And you can't assume 40K and FB share the same universe...GW's never made any claims to that end.

Certain employees did. But that has all been swept under the rug AFAIK.

Never happened. 40K and Fantasy are completely seperate.

which employees?? you know they just make it up as they go along.  specially the red shirts,  they just sit around all days coming up with their own theories.

 

hey kinda like us,  oh my god we are the internet red shirts,  only difference is we dont get paid to have these discussions whereas they do.

Thanks gorgon.

Beef, you've just shattered my self-esteem.

Ok first things lets keep threads to the subject...

But on subject I do really like the Idea of Signmar as a primach and there are nice signs that he is

Also taking into consideration 1st ed of 40k in my opinion was the test for the incarnation of 40k we know today i find it difficult to incorperate RT stuff into 2nd/3rd/4th ed of 40k... but hey there you go

I have to say that the slann are refered to as slann while the Old ones are pointed at whimsicaly. For example in one of the warhammer books i think 1st or 2nd edition or it may even be one of the realms of chaos books there is a picture of a Slann trader. Also in the book Inquisitor Jaq Draco weighs up the option to seek safety with a Slann.

Yet the old ones are refered to as "the old ones" even in the eldar mysteries their is a definition between the old ones and the slann. One may think that the real problem may be could the emperor be one of these "old ones?"

 

onto the records expunged chapters. there are more primarchs than we know about too. Im sure that there were references to the lost primarchs. Also there were some that were destroed before the emperor found them. Also the cursed founding, what of these chapters? The point i have is that even if the primarchs were destroyed the Dark angels were well into the army stage before the got Lion el Johnson. So technically there could easily be lost primarchs chapters out there searching for their as yet undiscovered unmade primarch. Oh what cool fluff!

I'm not a fan of the Sigmar as Primarch idea. Don't forget the 'contemporary' FB is set over 2000 years after his death. There could be a lot of exageration there. A lot-a-lot.

Fantasy has also been pitched as Earth, post-apocalypse, with the Slann attempting to create a refuge for the various races (whether they were native or not). I have no idea where I heard that, but it's (or was) at least semi-official at some point.

As to the Legions, there's also a possibility the simply didn't exist for very long. The Emperor created a Legion per Primarch, so they may have been disbanded when the Primarch was not discovered (unlikely, of course. you don't know how long it oculd take to find one), or were genetically deficient, and disbanded fairly early on, with no hunt made for their Primarch. If the Primarch did turn up, he may have been inducted into the Imperium (possibly one of the 'Emperor's closest friends', who went on to found the Assassin Temples, or a leader of the Imperial army).

Posted By Born Again on 06/27/2006 7:03 PM
Does anyone have some info on the Slann from RT days? I'm a bit murky on it and don't have the book. Are they the Old Ones, or are the Slann a creation of the Old ones?

 

Take this all with a grain of salt because I read the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay book like 16 years ago, but I think it gives a very full origin for the Warhammer world.  I believe it specifically names the Slann as settling the WFB planet via warp gates located at the poles.  Eventually they lost control of the gates and the greenskins began flooding in.  I'm not sure if this happened before or after the orcs arrived, but warpstone, which I think was described as "the raw stuff of chaos" began literally flying out of the gates and mutated rats into skaven and people into beastmen.

 

The RT era stuff had a lot of hints that the WFB world was in the 40K galaxy.  The amazons used bolt pistols that they'd found amongst the Slann/Lizardman ruins in Lustria.  Zoats existed in both continuities, in 40K they were specifically used as a tyranid vanguard race.  Even recently the Albion wargear that appeared at the end of the campaign was obviously 40K stuff, there was a powerfist and a rosarius plus some other stuff I can't recall.

 

I Sigmar is one of the lost primarchs then so is Nagaash the lord of death. while Orion the wood elf king is the lost Exarch

I know without a shadow of a doubt that Sigmar is in fact a lost primarch. Compare his fluff with any other primarchs fluff. He committed heroic deeds at a very young age..... check! (Him destroying an orc army on his own at the age of 16). He rose to dominance over the people of his world....... check! He was a man powerful in not only the body, but also was intelligent...... check!

So if he looks like a duck (primarch).... walks like a duck (primarch)..... he's a duck (primarch)....

And wasn't he found and adopted..... just like all the other primarchs?

Nagash and Orion are entirely different, as both of them have stated places of "birth".... as in, "DID NOT FALL FROM THE SKY"

You know that twin tailed comet that signalled the coming of Sigmar? Space capsul anyone?

I believe that one explanation for the Twin-tailed comet that is Sigmar's symbol was that it was the exhaust of a Thunderhawk, implying he was a pwerful Marine rather than a Primarch, but this is pre WFB4 fluff so has likely been retconned out of existence.

If that were the case... he'd be depicted in power armor..... or atleast the black carapace..... not a bare chested barbarian who destroyed an entire orc warband at the age of 16 using his "fathers" hatchet

The twin tailed commet could easily have been his capsule landing as well.

I dont think the primarchs have black carapace. They dont need to have themselves plugged into there armour. They are strong enough to power the armour themselves.

You got my point beef.... although I don't think you knew I was making it. What I was saying was that if he was a "marine captain" and not a primarch, he'd be in power armor, or black carapace, and would not have been 16 when he defeated the orc threat

but did he not do that like 2000 years ago?? did he land late on earhammer world by like 38000 years?? he missed the great crusade then and relised he was late so slunk out the back door

Nagash and Orion are entirely different, as both of them have stated places of "birth".... as in, "DID NOT FALL FROM THE SKY"

Bird poo falls from the sky, does that make them mini primarchs?? hehe

you forget, time works differently within the warp, and the warhammer world is definatly surrounded by warp storms

Posted By Angron on 07/20/2006 11:24 AM
you forget, time works differently within the warp, and the warhammer world is definatly surrounded by warp storms

i will concede to that angron as you are right and your theory could be correct.  all the signs point to sigmar being the lost primarch but then again it could just be wishfull thinking.  he was a normal sized man?  primarches are to space marines what space marines are to men.  I am refering to there size.

Actually.... the k'ork were designed by the old ones to be their genetic super warriors against their enemies.... the star gods. K'ork sounds alot like ork, doesn't it? So it makes perfect since that the old onces actually placed the orks on the planet. Also, I'm sure that skaven were already on the planet, and that the raw stuff of chaos didn't do anything. Skaven are a stable strand of DNA, not horribly mutated giant rats. There's even of a Hrud is the 40k rule book... and amazingly, it's discribed as subterranean.... it wears a mask which beady eyes peer through, and has a long tail..... so it appears to me that the skaven are even a creation of the old ones.

 

And as for Sigmar being only a normal size man.... taken from the back of the Empire dex,  Page 75, describing the scene where the orc warlord and Karl Franz were fighting.

"The Warlord stopped. He could not believe what he was seeing. He had been fighting a man in armour... so why was the figure standing before him that of a "gigantic" warrior dressed in furs? This was not the same person, this was taller, more powerful, but the hammer he raised in the air was the  very same legendary weapon. The man shouted a loud battle cry that boomed among the mountains as it had done so many centuries before: "Unberogen!"

At that sound the instincts of the Warlord were overcome by memories inscribed in the soul of his race, memories of mighty barbarians defeating the Orcs in the war for the domination of the rich plains, and driving them to the desolation beyond the mountains. In those times Men were led by this very same champion, he who has denied the possession of this land to the green-skinned race"

P.R.I.M.A.R.C.H.

but did he not do that like 2000 years ago?? did he land late on earhammer world by like 38000 years?? he missed the great crusade then and relised he was late so slunk out the back door

And actually, I'm betting that what happened was that the ruling elite of terra found him..... "Him dissapearing" and on the way back to earth, assassinated him so to quell any resistance to their rule.... of course, this would have happened after the betrayel.