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 NapoleonInSpace wrote:
This is one that I really just don't get. The whole point of the trip to Mordor, or Witchland, or Beyond the Wall, or wherever, is that its tough, uncertain, and things really, really, bite if you don't succeed.

Why play a game that essentially simulates a trip to Disney World?

When the Storyteller system (Vampire, Werewolf, etc.) came out, it totally transformed RPGs. For the first time you had a game of social interaction, and that eliminated the massive imbalance between the sexes in roleplaying.

The old rule was that any female interested in D&D not only got a free date with the DM, but unlimited amounts of healing potions and artifact-level equipment just to keep her showing up. My wife was one of those few, those happy few.

Vampire & co. really opened things up, and now you could have an entire campaign where the conflict was about social status rather than killin' and gettin' rich from it. That in turn transformed D&D, forcing it into a more skills and drama-based format.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:
...and now you could have an entire campaign where the conflict was about social status rather than killin' and gettin' rich from it. That in turn transformed D&D, forcing it into a more skills and drama-based format...

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think both of those stated goals miss the point of the genre.

In its best iterations, IMHO, fantasy and sci fi are neither about social status nor about whack-the-monster-and-gimme-the-money. They are about save Middle Earth from eternal oppression by an immortal demon-king, or save the galactic empire from a descent into 100,000 years of barbaric darkness, or perhaps lesser but similar goals on the kingdom/single planet level.

At least, those were the campaigns that I and my friends used to run. Is that so uncommon elsewhere?

This kinda leads me off down a different path, come to think of it. How different are rpg campaigns based on where you live in the real world?

Yep. Startin' that thread now.

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:

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 Easy E wrote:

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:


I can see why people do it that way, and I get it that rpgs should and do allow for flexibility, but if you can't lose, you can't rally win either.

There is no "winning" in RPGs. RPGs are only played.



Granted, I think this has evolved a lot from Gary's day as I think there was an idea of a "win state" for D&D even if it was simply survival.

This is one that I really just don't get. The whole point of the trip to Mordor, or Witchland, or Beyond the Wall, or wherever, is that its tough, uncertain, and things really, really, bite if you don't succeed.

Why play a game that essentially simulates a trip to Disney World?

Because some people like different things than you.

If my memory serves me didn't know what D&D was until the movie E.T.

Let's see, 1978 I get introduced to this D&D thing via the Holme's Blue book. Before that it was the hex and chit games from places like Avalon Hill. It all evolved into playing miniatures wargames too, which is the reverse of how D&D happened-- from miniatures wargames to RPG. IIRC the first ruleset for miniatures was from H.G. Wells and it is in the public domain. ( download https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3691 and https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3690 for the companion book)

 Adeptekon wrote:
If my memory serves me didn't know what D&D was until the movie E.T.

I was one of the nerds that recognized it and thought it was cool that it made it into a movie.

 Easy E wrote:

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Easy E wrote:

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:


I can see why people do it that way, and I get it that rpgs should and do allow for flexibility, but if you can't lose, you can't rally win either.

There is no "winning" in RPGs. RPGs are only played.



Granted, I think this has evolved a lot from Gary's day as I think there was an idea of a "win state" for D&D even if it was simply survival.

This is one that I really just don't get. The whole point of the trip to Mordor, or Witchland, or Beyond the Wall, or wherever, is that its tough, uncertain, and things really, really, bite if you don't succeed.

Why play a game that essentially simulates a trip to Disney World?

Because some people like different things than you.

Well said.


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 Red Harvest wrote:
Let's see, 1978 I get introduced to this D&D thing via the Holme's Blue book. Before that it was the hex and chit games from places like Avalon Hill. It all evolved into playing miniatures wargames too, which is the reverse of how D&D happened-- from miniatures wargames to RPG. IIRC the first ruleset for miniatures was from H.G. Wells and it is in the public domain. ( download https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3691 and https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3690 for the companion book)

Little Wars. A great piece of gaming history.

I was just told it was something college kids played. So my mom bought me basic set when I was 9 or 10.

 Adeptekon wrote:
I was just told it was something college kids played. So my mom bought me basic set when I was 9 or 10.

So you ended up a billionaire?

 Adeptekon wrote:
I was just told it was something college kids played. So my mom bought me basic set when I was 9 or 10.

Growing up in a college town, I got exposed to a lot of the popular culture stuff before it became popular. D&D was one part of that, and I also associate a lot of what we think of as "90s music" with the 80s because that's when the groups were getting played on the student radio with bookleg tapes and doing gigs at the local record store.

I was not (and am not) an early adopter, but I had friends who were.

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:

 Adeptekon wrote:
I was just told it was something college kids played. So my mom bought me basic set when I was 9 or 10.

So you ended up a billionaire?

Lol. I'm betting the copy he got as a 9 year old saw enough wear & tear to beat any future value out of it.

I know that's what happened to mine. Yes, mine survived my childhood & earned its retirement in the mid80s as we shifted to the 1e hardbacks. And I still have it & it's an important relic of my childhood. But the condition it's in.... Well, the only person it's valuable to is me.
Maybe if it survives another 50+ years it'll be back to its original sticker price.

ccs wrote:

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:

 Adeptekon wrote:
I was just told it was something college kids played. So my mom bought me basic set when I was 9 or 10.

So you ended up a billionaire?

Lol. I'm betting the copy he got as a 9 year old saw enough wear & tear to beat any future value out of it.

I know that's what happened to mine. Yes, mine survived my childhood & earned its retirement in the mid80s as we shifted to the 1e hardbacks. And I still have it & it's an important relic of my childhood. But the condition it's in.... Well, the only person it's valuable to is me.
Maybe if it survives another 50+ years it'll be back to its original sticker price.

I was thinking more in terms or, since the college kids played D&D, and they all became billionaires...

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:
This is one that I really just don't get. The whole point of the trip to Mordor, or Witchland, or Beyond the Wall, or wherever, is that its tough, uncertain, and things really, really, bite if you don't succeed.

Gygax games were infamous for punishing the slightest mistake with instant death where 'mistake' includes touching anything at all, not detecting the magically undetectable trap, failing an arbitrary saving throw for entering an area, or having one your spells or actions trigger a unique side-effect (i.e. Tomb of Horrors - room 29 - should fire of any type touch the blood filling the room - everyone dies, instantly, no saves).

A.T. wrote:
Gygax games were infamous for punishing the slightest mistake with instant death where 'mistake' includes touching anything at all, not detecting the magically undetectable trap, failing an arbitrary saving throw for entering an area, or having one your spells or actions trigger a unique side-effect (i.e. Tomb of Horrors - room 29 - should fire of any type touch the blood filling the room - everyone dies, instantly, no saves).

Don’t forget the ICE Rolemaster critical tables that were initially published as add-on rules for D&D. You could die fumbling your own sword or a whole host of other ways. That system (or the simpler but superior MERP) required either a nuanced GM or lots of blank character sheets to make up for the brutal attrition.

No sadly, and while I still have the cover to my basic set, it was tapped together so I've cut off the edges and placed it in a protector.

Instead I lay in wait for the Dieties & Demigods with Cathulu mythos selling in a lot on ebay by someone just clearing someone's estate out and not knowing how much money they're sitting on.

Then I hope to acquire it and sell it in another 20 years.

 Fugazi wrote:

A.T. wrote:
Gygax games were infamous for punishing the slightest mistake with instant death where 'mistake' includes touching anything at all, not detecting the magically undetectable trap, failing an arbitrary saving throw for entering an area, or having one your spells or actions trigger a unique side-effect (i.e. Tomb of Horrors - room 29 - should fire of any type touch the blood filling the room - everyone dies, instantly, no saves).

Don’t forget the ICE Rolemaster critical tables that were initially published as add-on rules for D&D. You could die fumbling your own sword or a whole host of other ways. That system (or the simpler but superior MERP) required either a nuanced GM or lots of blank character sheets to make up for the brutal attrition.

That was a real problem. and more so since the whole point of D&D was to slowly and painfully grow your character from 1st level where a wounded earthworm would have an almost even chance to kill you, up to this heroic 10th, 12th, whatever level character, who had a castle and some troops and a bunch of magic tiems, and was just starting to become a power in the land.

Then here comes Gary with The Tomb of Horrors which was specifically designed to show all of those upstart players how smart the wizard of Lake Geneva was, by creating a dungeon in which not only every missed saving throw, but every wrong turn, could kill him.

Childish stuff. Not a D&D killer for me, I love it to this day, and will even run the Tomb of Horrors if I get the right crowd, but only with the pregens.

That was when people weren't so attached to characters and (as the claim were) termed themselves when their characters died.

Not make light of anyone who did that, but that's what I like about old D&D, you don't have control over everything, and sometimes you will die, but even this was up to the discretion of the DM of course. I was never left feeling that I couldn't run a game how I wanted.

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:
Then here comes Gary with The Tomb of Horrors which was specifically designed to show all of those upstart players how smart the wizard of Lake Geneva was, by creating a dungeon in which not only every missed saving throw, but every wrong turn, could kill him.

Childish stuff. Not a D&D killer for me, I love it to this day, and will even run the Tomb of Horrors if I get the right crowd, but only with the pregens.

Yeah, IIRC, you had a 1 in 3 chance of dying just entering the dungeon. We talked about playing it back in the day with exactly that approach: stacks of ready-made characters to fill in the ranks as the casualties mounted.

The "professional" response was to simply dig the thing out, using a lengthy engineering approach to slag it from the outside, collapse every support and then just sift through the rubble for the cool stuff.

I did play White Plume Mountain twice with very different groups. I've said it before, but having a rotating DM does lead to some discontinuity, but they also tend to be much more interested in building a fun game than trying to prove to the players that they are the boss.

Indeed, I recall the penultimate campaign I was involved in collapsing because the DM decided to go on a power trip (which is really embarrassing for a man in his 40s) and the players simply quit.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:
Then here comes Gary with The Tomb of Horrors which was specifically designed to show all of those upstart players how smart the wizard of Lake Geneva was, by creating a dungeon in which not only every missed saving throw, but every wrong turn, could kill him.

Childish stuff. Not a D&D killer for me, I love it to this day, and will even run the Tomb of Horrors if I get the right crowd, but only with the pregens.

Yeah, IIRC, you had a 1 in 3 chance of dying just entering the dungeon. We talked about playing it back in the day with exactly that approach: stacks of ready-made characters to fill in the ranks as the casualties mounted.

The "professional" response was to simply dig the thing out, using a lengthy engineering approach to slag it from the outside, collapse every support and then just sift through the rubble for the cool stuff.

I did play White Plume Mountain twice with very different groups. I've said it before, but having a rotating DM does lead to some discontinuity, but they also tend to be much more interested in building a fun game than trying to prove to the players that they are the boss.

Indeed, I recall the penultimate campaign I was involved in collapsing because the DM decided to go on a power trip (which is really embarrassing for a man in his 40s) and the players simply quit.

Lol! I've seen it happen, and even been accused of it myself once. The guy was probably right.

About the Tomb of Horrors though, I did hear a story of one group that actually beat it, not sure if it was on the first go-around though.

The story goes that after they got one party member killed by the sphere of annihilation in the gargoyle's mouth at the entry, they basically said "*BLEEP* this place" and the wizard turned the Hobbit into a Bullette, who then just tore the dungeon up room by room. Absolute killer trap? No prob. He just tunneled his way out.

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:
The story goes that after they got one party member killed by the sphere of annihilation in the gargoyle's mouth at the entry, they basically said "*BLEEP* this place" and the wizard turned the Hobbit into a Bullette, who then just tore the dungeon up room by room. Absolute killer trap? No prob. He just tunneled his way out.

Yeah, that's what I mean by using engineering. Scope the complex, dig out out, transmute rock to mud/passwall/stoneshape as needed.

Which is kind of dull, and it shows why Gygax wasn't actually all that. The term "Gygax dungeon" is generally regarded as a insult for a reason.

I think all DMs have to deal with the question of being fair, and also accepting that maybe the game they envisioned isn't the game the group wants to play.

In my shameful, embarrassing time running a LARP (which I didn't even start, I took it over after the founders quit!), I came up with the bold notion of selling XP - not individually, but for everyone. Put simply, I was broke, and there was a snack shop downstairs. If someone would buy me a candy bar, everyone gets bonus XP.

It was wildly popular.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:
The story goes that after they got one party member killed by the sphere of annihilation in the gargoyle's mouth at the entry, they basically said "*BLEEP* this place" and the wizard turned the Hobbit into a Bullette, who then just tore the dungeon up room by room. Absolute killer trap? No prob. He just tunneled his way out.

Yeah, that's what I mean by using engineering. Scope the complex, dig out out, transmute rock to mud/passwall/stoneshape as needed.

Which is kind of dull, and it shows why Gygax wasn't actually all that. The term "Gygax dungeon" is generally regarded as a insult for a reason.

I think all DMs have to deal with the question of being fair, and also accepting that maybe the game they envisioned isn't the game the group wants to play.

In my shameful, embarrassing time running a LARP (which I didn't even start, I took it over after the founders quit!), I came up with the bold notion of selling XP - not individually, but for everyone. Put simply, I was broke, and there was a snack shop downstairs. If someone would buy me a candy bar, everyone gets bonus XP.

It was wildly popular.

LOL! I new a DM who sold raise dead spells for pizza.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:


In my shameful, embarrassing time running a LARP (which I didn't even start, I took it over after the founders quit!), I came up with the bold notion of selling XP - not individually, but for everyone. Put simply, I was broke, and there was a snack shop downstairs. If someone would buy me a candy bar, everyone gets bonus XP.

It was wildly popular.

LOL. I did something similar in a Vampire LARP I was helping run.
Only we Storytellers actually worked it into the game.
We played the NPC roles of the Cities upper echelon Tremere.
Any of the players could make a deal with us for bonus xp. This was NOT a secret.
Out-of-character: we charged actual $ for the xp (it scaled based on how much xp you alresdy had & you could only buy a set amount per session).
In-Character.... Clan Tremere has used its magic to aid you. You are now indebted to Clan Tremere. And those debts would be called in, furthering & affecting the game.
It was very amusing seeing who took these deals, how play was affected, and just how much real $ they were willing to spend.

I read that a group beat the Tomb by simply using a large flock of farm animals.... I do not recall if it was chickens, sheep, goats, or some combination?

 Easy E wrote:
I read that a group beat the Tomb by simply using a large flock of farm animals.... I do not recall if it was chickens, sheep, goats, or some combination?

That's right up there with massacring flocks of herd animals for easy XP. I think cattle had more hit dice than goblins, so it was a smart play for starting characters.

Chicken dungeonering was a meme before memes were a thing. You got like 400 chickens for a GP. Find/set of traps. Feed monsters so they take sated naps.

Nerfed in 3rd when they devalued the copper piece and doubled the cost of a chicken.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
I read that a group beat the Tomb by simply using a large flock of farm animals.... I do not recall if it was chickens, sheep, goats, or some combination?

That's right up there with massacring flocks of herd animals for easy XP. I think cattle had more hit dice than goblins, so it was a smart play for starting characters.

Only mathematically & only if your DM was on board with the idea.
If the DM isn't down with the idea? The BEST thing that happens is that you don't get any xp & have to go on a real adventure.
Me? I'll have the NPCs treat you like the maraudrrs/bandits you've chosen to be & you'll be hunted down by the law/other adventures until the problem stops.
Oh, and cows don't have any loot....

I was playing other games that didn't rely on rehashed middle-eartian tropes and cliches.

they used near-future cyberpunk cliches and tropes, instead.

 Easy E wrote:

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:


I can see why people do it that way, and I get it that rpgs should and do allow for flexibility, but if you can't lose, you can't rally win either.

There is no "winning" in RPGs. RPGs are only played.

Yup. And even your character "winning" usually can't be represented on a board with miniatures. If the winning condition is becoming the ruler of the vampire cabal of your city or destroying the financial empire of your arch enemy from within or finding the origins of this strange, tentacled artifact, board and miniatures are pointless for you. Very often you don't even need dice, character sheets and rules.

Heck, the fact that you actually start fighting may indicate you are already losing

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:
Then here comes Gary with The Tomb of Horrors which was specifically designed to show all of those upstart players how smart the wizard of Lake Geneva was, by creating a dungeon in which not only every missed saving throw, but every wrong turn, could kill him.

Childish stuff. Not a D&D killer for me, I love it to this day, and will even run the Tomb of Horrors if I get the right crowd, but only with the pregens.

But you also do know, that Tomb of Horrors was built and designed specifically to be a "killer dungeon". That was the conceit. That was what was on the tin. It wasn't a surprise to any party who adventured into the Tomb of Horrors that it was anything but. The entire point of it was to see how far you could get.

Remember also that DnD back in Gary's era (and it might still be, but I don't attend RPG cons) that modules like that were also Tournament games at Cons. Different people all playing through the module to see who could get the farthest through, or even complete it, in the time given, etc. You know, competitive like. It would definitely not do to have a 5e tournament module, as all the characters would enter level 1, and exit not only having won, but level 15, after about 90 minutes of play.

We learned DnD on the B/X rules, and transitioned to Ad&d 1e when that came out, and our games tended to be "adversarial DM" style games. He was out to get us, and we were out to survive. And it served us well for 30 years (and was aided and abetted by certain of our group being of that kind of personality too - and not the DM). The last decade we've moved to less adversarial, more collaborative, and more sandbox, using rules other than 5e.

So while Gygax and Arneson and Co. kicked things off, I think they might not recognize the game now, even though they do manage to keep a lot of "core elements" that are anachronistic or just there 'cause DnD'. But it is amazing to me that, much like Battletech, I can still play DnD using rules 40+ years old, and still find plenty of players.

 Cruentus wrote:
But you also do know, that Tomb of Horrors was built and designed specifically to be a "killer dungeon". That was the conceit. That was what was on the tin. It wasn't a surprise to any party who adventured into the Tomb of Horrors that it was anything but. The entire point of it was to see how far you could get.

In that mode D&D was more a squad-level combat game than an actual exercise in role-playing, and the amount of text spent on working out combat mechanics vs skill use/narrative structure demonstrates this.

That's why I never was interested in an RPG tournament because I didn't see how one could compare narrative storytelling. It's unique to each group.

But if you're just time a timed kill and loot spree, it makes sense.

The shift of RPGs to actual, er, role-playing, is when women began to get involved in large numbers.