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I would argue that even with his time away to mellow out from the events of the Heresy, the Lion is still too much of a warrior to effect real change in Nihilus.

Sure he was one of the Primarchs who stemmed the tide of the Rangda and led the purge of the Traitor homeworlds during the Heresy.
He was a peerless tactician and exceptional warrior but he didn't have a diplomatic bone in his body which is why he wasn't chosen as Warmaster.
His brothers either didn't like him or didn't trust him. Even when the Heresy started and the Lion chose his side, Sanguinius had to constantly intervene in arguments between Guilliman and the Lion to keep the peace.
While the trio eventually became more amicable, when the Lion went on his vengeance spree against the Traitor homeworlds, he threatened to kill Corax and destroy the Raven Guard if they refused to join him, an act that placed Leman Russ as the negotiator to prevent more bloodshed.

Isn’t Dante the top dog in the dark imperium? I think the lion is on crusade duty, liberating as many imperial world as possible. But Dante is responsible for managing the imperium nihilism as best he can….

Giving rise to the fan theory that sanguinius will be reincarnated through him

How many Daemon Primarchs are there currently at large in the galaxy? I believe the number is 6 (as Horus and Kurze are dead and Alpharius/Omegon might or might not be dead but probably aren't a daemon primarch if they are alive).

In that case, I think the Imperium needs at least 7 primarchs to fix the balance of power - because they have to negate the impact of the 6 primarchs aligned with their greatest foe, + at least 1 more primarch in order to begin offsetting the threat posed by all the other factions.

chaos0xomega wrote:
How many Daemon Primarchs are there currently at large in the galaxy? I believe the number is 6 (as Horus and Kurze are dead and Alpharius/Omegon might or might not be dead but probably aren't a daemon primarch if they are alive).

In that case, I think the Imperium needs at least 7 primarchs to fix the balance of power - because they have to negate the impact of the 6 primarchs aligned with their greatest foe, + at least 1 more primarch in order to begin offsetting the threat posed by all the other factions.

Mortairon, angron, fulgrim, lorgar, Magnus and peuterabo??? Am I missing any?

Of those only Mortarion is actively running his legion like an army. The emperors children have tried and failed to get it together. Fulgrim seems to be a weapon at the control of Vashtor.

Are any of the other going to provide or Gaines resistance?

Of course there’s Abbadon who is primarch level now and the black legion are a well run machine.

A lot of the traitor legions are happy mucking about in the eye of terror running their own little kingdoms. It would make more sense to try and close the eye rather than conquer it

Had a thought: what if a certain meme-y metal man takes out his ultra limited edition "perfect" Fulgrim clone? Not that he would, as you never spoil mint condition action figures by taking them out of the packaging.
In all seriousness, it *COULD* happen that Trazyn hands over the clone Fabius Bile made. In a way it'd be better/worse than the original Fulgrim, because it'd be a "blank slate" that the Loyalists could mentor in their doctrines and without the self-recriminating loathing/ pleasure Fulgrim had about killing Ferrus.
This all hinges on the fact you're asking a collector to give up some of his collection- which he DID do in Cadia. But seeing how dedicated he is to his collection in "The Infinite and the Divine", it's probably a no-go.

chaos0xomega wrote:
How many Daemon Primarchs are there currently at large in the galaxy? I believe the number is 6 (as Horus and Kurze are dead and Alpharius/Omegon might or might not be dead but probably aren't a daemon primarch if they are alive).

In that case, I think the Imperium needs at least 7 primarchs to fix the balance of power - because they have to negate the impact of the 6 primarchs aligned with their greatest foe, + at least 1 more primarch in order to begin offsetting the threat posed by all the other factions.

And you need Primarchs to fight Primarchs because . . .? Man herohammer is really rearing its head I guess.

 Insectum7 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
How many Daemon Primarchs are there currently at large in the galaxy? I believe the number is 6 (as Horus and Kurze are dead and Alpharius/Omegon might or might not be dead but probably aren't a daemon primarch if they are alive).

In that case, I think the Imperium needs at least 7 primarchs to fix the balance of power - because they have to negate the impact of the 6 primarchs aligned with their greatest foe, + at least 1 more primarch in order to begin offsetting the threat posed by all the other factions.

And you need Primarchs to fight Primarchs because . . .? Man herohammer is really rearing its head I guess.

The primarchs are supposed to be superhuman intellects and strategic masterminds, etc. I said nothing about fighting, its about organizing and leading.

 TheChrispyOne wrote:
Had a thought: what if a certain meme-y metal man takes out his ultra limited edition "perfect" Fulgrim clone? Not that he would, as you never spoil mint condition action figures by taking them out of the packaging.
In all seriousness, it *COULD* happen that Trazyn hands over the clone Fabius Bile made. In a way it'd be better/worse than the original Fulgrim, because it'd be a "blank slate" that the Loyalists could mentor in their doctrines and without the self-recriminating loathing/ pleasure Fulgrim had about killing Ferrus.
This all hinges on the fact you're asking a collector to give up some of his collection- which he DID do in Cadia. But seeing how dedicated he is to his collection in "The Infinite and the Divine", it's probably a no-go.

The reason Fabius handed him over was because he could see him making all the same mistakes again, like all the other clones of fulgrim did.

It’d be a better twist if one of the necrons succeeded in reversing bio transference into fulgrim clones body

If the Tyranids are even remotely near as dangerous and scary as they are rumoured to be (and they probably are, given that they made Szarekh crap his metal pants), then even a legion of Primarchs wouldn't be enough to tip the balance of power. The galaxy is literally an island in a sea of Tyranids.

The entire premise of 40k's setting is that mankind and the galaxy at large are doomed, and tthat there is nothing anyone can do to avert that doom. All victories merely delay the inevitable. It wouldn't be grimdark if humanity could actually win if they only made more Primarchs.

 Gert wrote:
I would argue that even with his time away to mellow out from the events of the Heresy, the Lion is still too much of a warrior to effect real change in Nihilus.

Sure he was one of the Primarchs who stemmed the tide of the Rangda and led the purge of the Traitor homeworlds during the Heresy.
He was a peerless tactician and exceptional warrior but he didn't have a diplomatic bone in his body which is why he wasn't chosen as Warmaster.
His brothers either didn't like him or didn't trust him. Even when the Heresy started and the Lion chose his side, Sanguinius had to constantly intervene in arguments between Guilliman and the Lion to keep the peace.
While the trio eventually became more amicable, when the Lion went on his vengeance spree against the Traitor homeworlds, he threatened to kill Corax and destroy the Raven Guard if they refused to join him, an act that placed Leman Russ as the negotiator to prevent more bloodshed.

It’s possible him simply kicking ass might be enough.

He’s a big old target, and as with all Primarchs, a serious force multiplier. Leading anything like a Crusade force, he’s a figurehead for that half of the Galaxy, and someone capable of dealing hefty blows to concentrations of enemies.

Morale boost aside? Primarchs are well suited to crippling enemies like Chaos and Orks, both of which tend to revolve around powerful leaders, and who don’t recover terribly well from the loss thereof. Granted he may still lack the forces to really follow up on the disruption, but it’s still a start, fracturing them down into ever smaller and more self-opposing factions trying to sort out who’s the next Boss or Lord.

It’s far from the work of an afternoon of course. But he is out there. And he will be doing damage all the time.

Don't get me wrong, damage is good. But damage isn't what Nihilus needs.

The Lion isn't also half the figurehead Guilliman is. Sure "The Primarch returned" is a good rallying cry, but not when that Primarch kind of just zoops about doing what he wants when he wants using forest magic.

At best time is bought but it won't matter how many Primarchs come back, Nihilus is lost.

I dunno. It needs breathing space to sort itself out. A new adopted crownworld and some semblance of central government, so the various systems and sectors can once again start pulling in the same direction and mutually supporting.

The Lion may be the very voice to do that. If nothing else, who can genuinely stand higher in Implied Authority than a Primarch? And the implied threat of his displeasure should those ruling betray his trust and invoke his wrath is also something to keep in mind.

It’s still no more than a fighting chance though.

Without the astronomicon Nihilus is lost. You cannot have a galactic scale organization without the beacon that makes galactic scale travel and communication possible.

At most Primarchs may be able to hunt down and cripple Chaos warlods on Nihilus, but eventually it will be lost to Xenos.

For Nihilus to have even a hope of survival the Great Rift needs to be closed and Astronomicon restored to that half of the galaxy.

 Gert wrote:
but not when that Primarch kind of just zoops about doing what he wants when he wants using forest magic.

I really like this characterisation of the Lion! Made me smile.

The Lion was always quite strong willed - if Roboute and he have any sense, Roboute will just hand him a campaign fleet and a target list and let him get on with it. He's not the type to be integrated into the wider command structure/strategic planning. Roboute is far superior to him in that regard. If the Lion is content to just be deployed as a targeted weapon, he'd be a serious force multiplier for the Imperium.

As it is though, he'll probably just have a squabble with Roboute, play the 'You're not my dad!' card, and carry on 'zooping' about. He was never keen to do what Roboute told him, or even to co-operate particularly well.

Have the Lion and Roboute had an audience now that he's awake? I'm not up to date on current lore, I know Lion is doing the whole Green Knight schtick with the zooping, but wasn't sure what the relationship between the two brothers was like.

He has not and if GW writers have any sense, never will.

Guilliman can't return to Nihilus himself, hell he couldn't even go to Vigilus and had to send Calgar in his stead.
Guilliman is very much trapped both literally and metaphorically on the wrong side of the galaxy from his brother.
At some point, he'll learn of the Lion's return but as of yet it hasn't happened.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
How many Daemon Primarchs are there currently at large in the galaxy? I believe the number is 6 (as Horus and Kurze are dead and Alpharius/Omegon might or might not be dead but probably aren't a daemon primarch if they are alive).

In that case, I think the Imperium needs at least 7 primarchs to fix the balance of power - because they have to negate the impact of the 6 primarchs aligned with their greatest foe, + at least 1 more primarch in order to begin offsetting the threat posed by all the other factions.

And you need Primarchs to fight Primarchs because . . .? Man herohammer is really rearing its head I guess.

The primarchs are supposed to be superhuman intellects and strategic masterminds, etc. I said nothing about fighting, its about organizing and leading.

Not that I'm up on my Primarch lore, but it sure seemed like many of them . . . weren't that. The last major shift in the galaxy was brought about by Abaddon. It could probably be argued that he's accomplished more than most Primarchs.

Anyways, Primarch this and primarch that gets pretty stale, imo.

Traitor Primarchs are dumbasses full of personality flaws. Loyalist ones are supposed to be the super military geniuses.

As if the loyalist primsrchs don't also have personality flaws?

Not to the same extent of the likes of Mortarion, Lorgar or Magnus.

Of course Angron doesn't have personality flaws as he doesn't even have a personality at this point.

I think Primarchs should not be able to do much for the setting. They were figureheads and military leaders of the Legions, which no longer exist. The social structure that supported the legions and allowed for the Great Crusade is gone, the Imperium is it's rotting corpse. Without the massive and dynamic power of the Great Crusade society Primarchs are nothing but another powerful being in a galaxy full of them.

In any case, they were deeply flawed and failed in the Great Crusade in catastrophic fashion, there's no reason they'd succeed if they came back to the much worse situation humanity is in now.

Bringing Primarchs back is really stupid and I hate it.

 Da Boss wrote:
I think Primarchs should not be able to do much for the setting. They were figureheads and military leaders of the Legions, which no longer exist. The social structure that supported the legions and allowed for the Great Crusade is gone, the Imperium is it's rotting corpse. Without the massive and dynamic power of the Great Crusade society Primarchs are nothing but another powerful being in a galaxy full of them.

In any case, they were deeply flawed and failed in the Great Crusade in catastrophic fashion, there's no reason they'd succeed if they came back to the much worse situation humanity is in now.

Bringing Primarchs back is really stupid and I hate it.

It is not stupid.

Remember what Primarchs are in the mind of common man. A symbol, a myth, a legend.

Return of somebody like Guilliman will have helped the Imperium even if he spent his time doing nothing but preaching and holding voxcast podcast.

And Primarchs are far more than just figureheads. They are far beyond the common man in terms of intellect, strategic and organizational ability. Some mortal men may be able to match them, but that is a one-in-a-million chance - and because they are mortal, said men will never be able to achieve as much as nearly-immortal primarchs even if they do have the abilities of a primarch.

Great Crusade failed because Emperor a) did not understand the Chaos at all, for all that he appreciated the danger it posed and b) has the emotional intelligence of a wet cardboard box.

If you look at most of the factions they are all undergoing somewhat of a united grouping right now.

Necrons are rallying behind the Silent King
Eldar are if not uniting, at least rallying behind Yinnari as a potential leader focused on offensive action instead of deflection and hiding
Orks only need a good warboss to get behind for their latest Waaargh
Tau are pretty united as it is, but with hints that they might get a Warp patron and also advances in their experiments with inter-stella travel they are reaching out further and further.
Chaos just had a united Great Crusade

The Imperium is also rallying behind the Primarchs.


So there's a general sense that the factions have come out of a period of internal strife and division and are approaching an age where at least the primary elements in each faction are working toward a united front. This speaks to me of some mega battle against, most likely, the Tyranids happening. Something huge that will cause a new wave of shattering and chaos to follow as everyone locks heads; smashes into each other and no one comes out the winner in the end (but no one dies at least!)


Primarchs to me are the Imperium's beacons in the dark. They can unify, guide and direct, but they are pinpricks of light in a sea of sludge and darkness. They can make some big waves, but they won't turn the tide.

The Necrons have just erupted into civil war BTW.
Imotehk didn't take lightly to being outshone by the Silent King and now he's openly challenged the monarch.

To defeat the tyranids you will need all of the imperium,chaos forces, necrons and orks to band together and focus on tyranids alone

 Corennus wrote:
To defeat the tyranids you will need all of the imperium,chaos forces, necrons and orks to band together and focus on tyranids alone

Maybe. The whole "tyranids are totally endless" thing comes from a combination of tendrils coming from all directions around the galaxy and the bugs generally being quite swarmy in nature when attacking a planet. But also the fact that starvation strategies seem to work against hive fleets implies that they're kind of walking a thin line in terms of resources expended vs resources gained by eating planets. Exterminating the species entirely is a massive ask, but interrupting the hive fleets' momentum and turning 'nids into a more localized threat that you just have to stay on top of seems like it *might* be more doable than initially thought.

Like, you might just have to go around culling tyranids in a similar fashion to how you handle ork populations. If you let them get too big, they're a problem, but if you keep smacking them down when you see them, they might struggle to get off of a planet or meaningfully threaten the next system over. At which point, the greater tyranid threat maybe becomes the hard-to-stamp-out phenomena of genestealer cults. But that *also* seems like the sort of thing the inquisition has reasonably good success with. And also some xenos are all but immune to GSC infestation.

The main issue is Tyranids are an unknown quantity in terms of how many there are. In fact only the Silent King might have some concept of this as when he saw them they scared him enough to turn around and come home to wake everyone up.

The other big difference is that Tyranids want to eat everything and leave nothing at all. Even the Necrons want something left and Orks can't have a good scrap if no one is left alive!

The starvation tactics can kind of work against Tyranids but has a few flaws

1) It is a retreat tactic and thus requires you to, at some point, change tactics to win.

2) It requires vast resource sacrifice on your part, which is something the Tyranids could most certainly abuse by only targeting your richest regions and forcing you to abandon key important worlds.

3) It's the SAME tactic Tyranids are using - resource denial. Tyranids do it by stripping worlds to gain strength as they go. Everyone else has to lose strength when purging worlds in advance of the Tyranids.

4) Tyranids have been shown to eat everything, however they appear ot have focused on rapid consumption of readily accessible biomass on worlds.

My theory is that they are doing this to pacify the Galaxy and will then revert to their behaviour identified in earlier codex of consuming suns, gas giants, nebula, mineral content and everything from worlds.
Basically leave the slower to digest and most juicy and rich foods for when the galaxy is dead and can't threaten them. So they can feed with impunity and leave.

However I suspect if resource denial were conducted against the Tyranids for long enough they might well adapt to other tactics. This could even make them more of a threat because now you'd have huge segments of space without any habitation or defences or such. So they could establish territories and slow-consume everything to raise huge fleets.

5) Numbers. Again we hit the issue of numbers. Because the total number isn't known its hard to know how effective starvation tactics are against the Tyranids. Are you sacrificing worlds to stop a major tendril or are you sacrificing worlds for a minor threat. It might inhibit new or different tactics arising which might be more effective and might be essential if you find that there's even more threat out there

The codex does flat out state that unless the civilizations of the galaxy get their gak together and actually organize galaxy wide defense, they are doomed.

The problem is one of scope. Tyranids are able to organize and learn at a galactic scale, meaning that a strategy that works on one Hive Fleet isn't going to work on the next one even if it is at the other side of the galaxy. Meaning the galaxy needs to create a galaxy wide command and control network that keeps developing new strategies and weapons at the galactic stage, and that isn't something the IoM can do alone.

Remember that regardless of the strategy, the enemy always gets a vote.

The only force that has a chance against tyranids is chaos daemons. And even then the shadow in the warp affects daemon ability to materialise



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And as far as the original question goes. The max we will get back is Russ Khan Corax. Unless Dorn isnt dead and vulkan lives
Im a salamander player. Vulkan lives

If anything Demons might actually be rather weak against Tyranids. The Shadow in the Warp is insanely powerful at driving back Tyranids. Tyranids would just need more of those huge planets they are building one of; or massive hive fleets to drive Chaos back.

It's like trying to defeat the north end of a magnet with the south end. Especially when every time the Tyranids kill the living and devour it, they become greater and the Chaos forces become steadily weaker as their food is conusmed.