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cody.d. wrote:
Quite a few novels have involved former or non imperial worlds undergoing violent "compliance" when they just wanted to be left to their own devices peacefully and without bothering anyone else and were forced to conform or die. Seems like a decent enough analogy to me. People will force you to follow their morals or standards even if you don't negatively affect them in any way, shape or form.

Yes, writers will rarely go out of their way to say, imperium dislikes LGBQT+ but based on how Orwellian dystopian with a literal inquisition it all is I don't think it's a leap to say that anything outside of a very narrow set of standards would not be allowed.

Also things like Tithes, reminds me of the fallout Brotherhood being a bit homophobic because it resulted in less children being born. Taking away personal choice and dehumanizing relationships in the name of a supposed higher goal. If you're not producing kids for the manufactoria then your doing heresy against the Emperor or some nonsense.

The imperium is not good, nor progressive, they tend to control every aspect of people's lives with arranged marriages being mentioned in a few novels, or entire people being born into slavery, forcibly surgically mutilated and walked around in chain gangs. (specifically the Baneblade/Shadowsword novels in this case.)

I feel like you're maybe missing the point the rest of us are trying to make. The imperium is a horrible, awful, xenophobic place. However, certain very specific real-world forms of persecution just don't seem to be on the imperium's hate list. Like, transphobic populations might exist within the imperium, but it doesn't seem to be a part of greater imperial culture.

We have at least a couple of examples of gay married couples in the 41st/31st milleniums, and they're handled in a way that suggests they're not a big deal to anyone. So not every real-world form of bigotry is practice en masse in the 41st millenium. Someone previously posted an excerpt from a novel depicting trans-ness as no big deal for the imperials discussing it.

So we have examples of the imperium as a whole not being homophobic or transphobic, and I don't think I can call to mind any examples to the contrary.

No one is accusing the imperium of being progressive. If you sincerely think we are, I encourage you to re-read the posts above because no one has come anywhere close to claiming such a thing. It's just that homophobia and transphobia don't appear to be on the long list of awful beliefs/practices common throughout the imperium.

Imperium is obviously hella bigoted, but it is almost completely fantasy bigotry. They're not bigoted towards the same things than bigots in real life. And from creative perspective this is completely understandable. GW is fine with depicting Imperium as horrible, but they don't want to import actual real life bigotries into the setting or write text or dialogue that would seem to be directly bigoted towards parts of their customer base. That would be completely another level of uncomfortable.

Yeah. The Imperium isn't racist, sexist or homophobic. They're literally xenophobic.

They like you if you're human, not a mutant, and not a heretic. Beyond that, they don't care.

As for Eldar? We’d first need to consider their concept of gender as a society. Which we don’t really know an awful lot about.

Certainly Dark Eldar are a society where it’s kind of normal to have a Haemonculus make all sorts of weird alterations to you. And if you’re really unlucky and not terribly popular, you might get made into a chair because they figured that might be a laugh. And so having reassignment surgery probably wouldn’t raise even the shapliest eyebrow.

Orks? There’s nothing to suggest they even have different genders. Their entire breeding cycle remains obscure, and not something the species is apparently interested in understanding for itself. Young Orks just appear and become integrated into whichever settlement they first discover.

When I say the Imperium doesn't care enough either way, for me, that's at the planetary governor level and above. It's amongst the guard regiments or administratum institutions.

At the smaller level, at the level that normal people live their lives at, I absolutely feel the local governments will push whatever bigoted views are necessary to meet the greater Imperium's requirements of tithe grade and mutant/psyker/heretic control. But for most of these governments it's more of a better safe than sorry situation.

What counts as a mutant? Is spiritual corruption just as bad physical corruption, and if it is does that mean the local priest is the one who defines what is a mutant? Is that a cult forming in that abandoned warehouse or is it a drag ball? The masses don't have the ability to handle these nuances and the local governments don't have the means or the desire to sort it all out. So the end result is a population taught, "Everyone different from YOU is suspicious until shown otherwise." A false positive might lead to a few hundred or thousand innocents being burned to death. A false negative could lead to warp rifts or xenos insurrections. For local governments the decision seems easy. Teach people to hate and keep your people safe.

One just needs to look back at things like the Red Scare of the 50s and the Satanic Panic of the 80s to see how easy it is to align innocent practices or displays of expression with the heretical, and I have no doubt such things are rampant within worlds, just not so much across worlds.

What purpose does it serve to have bigotry against fellow humans in the setting?

When 40k talks of mutants it's an X-Men sort of thing, not going down the nitty gritty biological technicalities of what is and is not part of the "baseline" human genome. People aren't going to form a mob to lynch someone with Heterochromia or because they are trans.

It's a bit disturbing that people are trying to shoehorn in bigotry towards LGTBQ+ folks and call them "mutants".

The purpose is twofold. It keeps the unwashed masses from realizing their real problems while showcasing that your average human doesn't have the slightest clue what is or isn't part of the baseline human genome.

As for forming lynch mobs, it might not have been heterochromia but it wasn't that much worse:

The problem was where to draw the line. Mankind was a galactic species, one scattered across a million worlds. Some planets were high-grav. Some were poisonous hell-swamps, others regulated urban centres. That induced variation, melding and stretching the original physical frame of humanity. Some mutations were deemed so common and benign that they were sanctioned, creating the abhuman class. Some subtle alterations were hard to detect, even by the individuals in question. So what was a true mutation, and what was merely an environmental adaptation? No doubt scholars on Terra spent their lives codifying answers. On a backwater world like Alecto, such certainty was harder to come by.

Zidarov remembered attending a case when he'd still been a sanctioner - the armed wing of the enforcer corps - out at one of the mercantile port hubs. A big cargo carrier had ended up berthed in Alecto's voidspace, and its crew had come down planetside for a little rest and relaxation before the next stage. That had been a mistake - their skin was a touch too grey-tinged, their mouths a little too wide. Word got out, and a mob gathered. By the time Zidarov's squad was activated it was too late - the ringleaders had stormed the compound and dragged the crew out onto the streets. Thirty men and women, burned alive, screaming their innocence as the promethium-fuelled flames turned them to fatty, blackened meat-strips.

No one faced retribution for that. There were too many in the crowds, thousands by the end. In any case, most of the sanctioners on duty had been sympathetic.

'You never know,' one of them had muttered to Zidarov, looking grimly at the smouldering pyres. 'Maybe they were.' Zidarov hadn't disagreed. Better safe than sorry, he'd found himself thinking. Let a mutant in, just one, and you could lose it all. Keep them out. Keep them all out. -"Aberrant", Chris Wraight, No Good Men

Pretty messed up that you both think the 40k setting needs to have transphobia and refer to trans folks as mutants chief.

The purpose is twofold. It keeps the unwashed masses from realizing their real problems while showcasing that your average human doesn't have the slightest clue what is or isn't part of the baseline human genome.

The thing is, we already get that without having to bring transphobia into the setting. Between abhumans, mutants, and psykers, we have plenty of outgroups for hatred to be directed towards to "keep the unwashed masses from realizing their real problems," and we have plenty of moments where we, the readers, are shown how counterproductive their bigotry is.

If the imperium were canonically transphobic, that would be unsurprising. Potentially unpleasant for real-world people trying to enjoy the setting, but unsurprising. But the imperium on the whole just... isn't. We have canon examples of people being gay or trans in the imperium and seemingly not being persecuted over it. Not being transphobic makes plenty of sense in the lore as the imperium has other out-groups to hate against and no particular reason to promote transphobia or homophobia.

Transphobia isn't a canon part of the imperium. It would be unpleasant from a real-world perspective if it were. "Modern day Earthlings are sometimes transphobic" is not a compelling reason to assume that the imperium is generally transphobic.

I guess you can headcanon that the imperium is transphobic if you really want to, but... why would you want to?

 Gert wrote:
Pretty messed up that you both think the 40k setting needs to have transphobia and refer to trans folks as mutants chief.

You're the one who put heterochromia and being transgender in the same category.

But the imperium on the whole just... isn't.

At no point have I said that it is. In fact, my original post stated the opposite. I'm not suggesting that GW should show more real-world bigotry in the material. But people want to believe that transphobia, homophobia, racism, sexism, or sectarianism aren't present on ANY Imperial world at any level, and that just isn't true. Planetary governments aren't good guys. They don't deserve to have their flaws overlooked.

I suggest you read back what others have been saying.

The Imperium itself isn’t inwardly racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic or what have you. It is a horrifically intolerant and oppressive regime, but y’know, outwardly. And not entirely without reason.

Inwardly? Sure, there will be Willy Watchers, who for reasons best known to themselves, will be oddly invested in knowing what version of wedding tackle lurks in the next person’s skivvies.

But that’s weirdos being weirdos. It’s not societal. Given there are no sources citing it being a concern of the Ecclesiarchy, we can safely rule out that the wider Imperium cares at all who is sleeping with whom and who’s Wedding Tackle matches what their facial appearance and clothing might bring one to expect.

And if the activities of those Willy Watchers starts impacting the output of the workers? Guess who’s getting their head kicked in by local law enforcement.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I suggest you read back what others have been saying.

The Imperium itself isn’t inwardly racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic or what have you. It is a horrifically intolerant and oppressive regime, but y’know, outwardly. And not entirely without reason.

Inwardly? Sure, there will be Willy Watchers, who for reasons best known to themselves, will be oddly invested in knowing what version of wedding tackle lurks in the next person’s skivvies.

But that’s weirdos being weirdos. It’s not societal. Given there are no sources citing it being a concern of the Ecclesiarchy, we can safely rule out that the wider Imperium cares at all who is sleeping with whom and who’s Wedding Tackle matches what their facial appearance and clothing might bring one to expect.

And if the activities of those Willy Watchers starts impacting the output of the workers? Guess who’s getting their head kicked in by local law enforcement.

Amusingly worded. Have an exalt.

@jareddm:
As Mad Doc says, you may want to review what people have been saying. If you think people are claiming transphobia has been utterly purged from the imperium, you are mistaken. What people are saying is that, while transphobia does probably exist within the imperium, it's coming from a more local level; not the imperium itself. So you might have individual planets or subfactions that have transphobic cultures, but they're not getting that transphobia from the greater imperium as a whole.

We know how imperials respond when their fellow imperials say or do something out of line with imperial teachings. If transphobia were a thing, we wouldn't see the exchange referencing a trans person that someone posted earlier. If homophobia were a thing, then the administratum clerk in Rites of Passage wouldn't casually mention to a person of authority that he has a husband.

Ta. I love a good euphemism, me!

They’re also useful to address serious topics without conscious or unconscious real world finger pointing.

jareddm wrote:
You're the one who put heterochromia and being transgender in the same category.

You literally called trans folk "mutants" my guy. You're a step away from transphobia and you've been arguing that because the Imperium suppresses "mutants", it should suppress LGBTQ+ folks because of your definition of "mutant".

Given this is Dakka, and an emotive subject? May I be so bold as to suggest we all take a step back, and a deep breath or three.

Because right now, in review? I fear we’re picking at each other on meanings that weren’t necessarily intended.

I trust we’re all grown up enough that if we have misspoken, we can admit that and apologise.

From what I can tell, the IOM is totally down with modifications to the human form as long as those modifications stay within sanctioned guidelines. It is the purity of the human genome they are concerned with, not the physical body itself. Messing around with a person through physical, pharmaceutical, and genetic changes is an everyday occurrence.

Based on that, changing your sex would not be a problem assuming you are able to access the necessary technology to make it happen. That is where the roadblocks are going to happen if you don’t have the money or power to grease the wheels of the system.

It is true that homosexuals and transgender people are rarely directly mentioned. The closest I can think of is a necromunda novel involving a Cawdor and a Delaque where the delaque was androgynous and possibly non-binary, refereed to as they not by he or she. Where they male or female? Never mentioned and didn't really matter for the story. But these were also the gangs of necromunda, who would be not be considered the "normal" imperial citizen.

The closest analogy given or commonly spoken about is tranhumanism. Is a marine still a human, are they the same creature anymore. Some call them monsters etc etc.

This is also the imperium we're talking about, what would by current day standards be called monstrous and inhumane. In the emperors vision for the imperium yes i think trans people would be very much accepted. But it's been corrupted by the religious and desperation.

Are Trans people mutants IRL? No, a hard no. Would some religious donkey-cave give them the title to try and justify stirring hatred and bigatory? Well it happens IRL so I have no trouble imagining it happening in 40k. If something happens IRL I believe it will be even worse in 40k. To say otherwise seems like it's missing the whole point of 40k to Flanderise it.. Taking out the humanity in progress makes things worse for everyone, leads to facism, bigotory and all the darkest things in us as a species.

Perhaps it would vary from world to world, culture to culture. I doubt it'd go well in Tallern, an islam analog. Ultramar, yeah I can imagine them being supportive of many different identities.

cody.d. wrote:
I doubt it'd go well in Tallern, an islam analog.

Not an analog for Islam, they're based on the Arabs that T.E. Laurence fought with and that is only for their aesthetic. The Tallarn themselves aren't any different from other Imperial citizens.

 Gert wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
I doubt it'd go well in Tallern, an islam analog.

Not an analog for Islam, they're based on the Arabs that T.E. Laurence fought with and that is only for their aesthetic. The Tallarn themselves aren't any different from other Imperial citizens.

They're noted to be religiously fanatical, even more so than the average guardsmen. They have a semi tribal culture with an "Orakle" who sounds a lot like a prophet.

Now do agree there is a lot of Laurence of the arabia inspiration, but still has a big middle eastern vibe so i'd attribute a lot of the modern day standards to their sci fi counterpart.

I mean, they are often modeled with a Kirpan from the sikh. Which upon further thought is more indian in nature... Could just be GW being a bit hodge podge with their inspirations?

Again, Arab forces from WW1, not Muslims as a whole.

In terms of models, GW portrays them as slightly tanned Europeans despite giving them what are essentially pseudo-Arabic names. And since their creation, certain events have likely caused them to be very heavily pushed into the background of the Guard in terms of visibility. Unlike say the Valhallans or even Kriegers who are based on a historical stereotype that most people won't really identify strongly with (Red Army and WW1 Western Front respectively), the Tallarn draw on a lot of imagery that is a bit more recent and a lot more raw in the collective conscious.

"The Tallarn themselves aren't any different from other Imperial citizens."

Isn't that ignoring the differences between cultures?

Regardless, they are religious conservatives among a group of religious conservatives. Not a great track record of being accepting of LGBTQ.

I mean that the Tallarn aren't particularly zealous in their religion, no more than the average Hive World.

And again, just because currently religious bigotry is often aimed at the LGBTQ+ community, doesn't mean that it is in 40k because in 40k there are real enemies for the Ecclesiarchy to preach about rather than made-up ones.

The Ecclesiarchy preaches about the dangers of democracy or accepting the Heretic and the Alien, not that Dan-who-is-now-Pam is evil. Pam is human, an Ork is not, and hating a human over an Ork is Heresy in itself.

The example given earlier of the grey-skinned, wide-smiled humans isn't the same as someone who is trans because being trans isn't a physical trait that would stoke fears of Xenos or X-Men level Mutants with 2 heads, 6 arms, or a tail.

Continuing the narrative that "Real life is like X, therefore 40k must be like X" only serves to encourage people to feel safe about their bigotry.
Not having human bigotry in 40k isn't about being progressive, it's about understanding that mankind literally doesn't care about the differences in sex, gender, race, or sexuality because there are sentient mushrooms with guns and actual demons out there.
Humanity has moved past bigotry towards itself because it serves no purpose.
It's not a good thing because human life is worth so little that people don't have the time to care if Pam used to be called Dan or Greg and Horace are married.

And yet you’re still to provide a single example of The Cult Imperialis preaching racism, sexism, homophobia and/or transphobia.

Do better.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And yet you’re still to provide a single example of The Cult Imperialis preaching racism, sexism, homophobia and/or transphobia.

Do better.

I cannot. Can you provide an example of those exact same people preaching acceptance of anyone who is not the same to them?

We have a lot of them being intolerant, of being suspicious of anyone and everyone. We literally have a torture happy Spanish inquisition who has total and utter authority. I'm assuming that bigoted people are going to be bigoted.

Saying that oh there are outside threats so everyone will get along now ignores all the issues the imperium has with hatred, usually throwing away lives because of what they precieve as a defect or some abnormality. 40k Has lots of bigatory, The angron novel is an example. World doesn't want to be part of the imperium, poses no threat but still has it's whole world ripped apart because they're different.

Continuing the narrative that "Real life is like X, therefore 40k must be like X" only serves to encourage people to feel safe about their bigotry. "

I have no clue how you come to that assumption. It's the opposite. It's to say why bigotry is bad, the imperium is a failure, because of blind hatred, because of us vs them, because of religious fanaticism and throwing humanity out the window.

Accepting and respecting that someone wishes to be addressed as him or her is a basic aspect of being human. Meaning the imperium at large is unlikely to do so because they are riddled with problems and something we should avoid becoming. It's why those who say, wow the imperium is cool I wanna be like that is comparable to people larping as nazis.

cody.d. wrote:
lContinuing the narrative that "Real life is like X, therefore 40k must be like X" only serves to encourage people to feel safe about their bigotry. "

I have no clue how you come to that assumption. It's the opposite. It's to say why bigotry is bad, the imperium is a failure, because of blind hatred, because of us vs them, because of religious fanaticism and throwing humanity out the window.

And that's true to a degree. The thing is, the game setting does a good job of avoiding real world parallels with any of that. There's no indication in any of the fiction that anyone in the Imperium cares a jot about, say, the colour of your skin unless it's not a 'normal' colour for a human being. And that's important, because it helps avoid a situation where a player finds themselves confronted by real world bigotry cloaked in the background of a fantasy game setting.

Yes, you can argue that the 'hate the other' philosophy of the Imperium would encourage bigotry and intolerance of everything seen as outside the norm. But if we want a fantasy setting to be as welcoming as possible to people in the real world, that 'norm' has to be set at a place that doesn't encourage that intolerance and bigotry to seep onto the gaming table. Because the alternative is telling real people that your game doesn't consider them to be normal.

 insaniak wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
lContinuing the narrative that "Real life is like X, therefore 40k must be like X" only serves to encourage people to feel safe about their bigotry. "

I have no clue how you come to that assumption. It's the opposite. It's to say why bigotry is bad, the imperium is a failure, because of blind hatred, because of us vs them, because of religious fanaticism and throwing humanity out the window.

And that's true to a degree. The thing is, the game setting does a good job of avoiding real world parallels with any of that. There's no indication in any of the fiction that anyone in the Imperium cares a jot about, say, the colour of your skin unless it's not a 'normal' colour for a human being. And that's important, because it helps avoid a situation where a player finds themselves confronted by real world bigotry cloaked in the background of a fantasy game setting.

Yes, you can argue that the 'hate the other' philosophy of the Imperium would encourage bigotry and intolerance of everything seen as outside the norm. But if we want a fantasy setting to be as welcoming as possible to people in the real world, that 'norm' has to be set at a place that doesn't encourage that intolerance and bigotry to seep onto the gaming table. Because the alternative is telling real people that your game doesn't consider them to be normal.

Well that is the nature of trying to tell a story, create a franchise while also having a message political or otherwise. But if you're too blatant it gets divisive. An example would be any cartoon touching on LGBTQ topics. You get too open with it and some people start complaining. Steven universe, Owl House etc etc. Hence why 40k authors will rarely say "yup this character is trans" so we can't say for sure how they are accepted in universe.

I do think a good author would be able to write a great analogy using a space marine, having their body, identity forcibly changed by others, demands put upon them that to their core may feel wrong. But you say that openly and some parent will probably complain their children are being brainwashed or whatever paranoia is popular at the time.

Just making a blanket statement that yup they'd be accepted also feels like it's underplaying the struggles trans people are having right now to get their place in society.

Additionally, the bigger threat means bigotry gets left aside is weak at best. We've had a global, unifying pandemic the past 3 years. If anything it inflamed racial tensions.

Would some religious donkey-cave give them the title to try and justify stirring hatred and bigatory? Well it happens IRL so I have no trouble imagining it happening in 40k. If something happens IRL I believe it will be even worse in 40k.

This seems to be the crux of your argument, and I find it fallacious.

"The imperium are bad guys. Transphobes are bad guys. Therefor the imperium must be transphobic."

You've got yourself a classic Fallacy of the Undistributed Middle there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_undistributed_middle

The imperium is clearly capable of doing any terrible thing that happens to suit their agenda. But that doesn't mean they'll go out of their way to do/promote every terrible thing you can think of. Like, they're not sending enforcers out to steal candy from babies for the lulz. They're not sending inquisitors around to loosen salt shakers so citizens ruin their meals.

I cannot. Can you provide an example of those exact same people preaching acceptance of anyone who is not the same to them?

Kind of, yeah. Any time you see a priest giving a speech about coming together and fighting external foes side-by-side. Like, normally the real-world equivalent of this would be full of dog whistles or be understood in context to exclude marginalized groups such as trans people. But in the context of 40k, the outgroup pretty explicitly consists of literal aliens, demons, etc.

Also, while it isn't from ecclesiarchs specifically, we have canon evidence that the imperium isn't an especially hostile place for gay folk on the whole, and more limited evidence that it's similarly not extra terrible for trans folk.

It's worth noting facism tends to do this nifty magic trick where it expands the criteria of people it's willing to admit into the in-group as necessary to take on its perceived enemies before contracting back down to exclude them again. That's why white supremacists in America used to toss Irish and Italian people into the out-group but have come to welcome their fellow "white folks" into the in-group following the abolition of slavery. That is to say, the same people rallying mankind against the mutant, heretic, and alien might have no problem supporting the reintroduction of transphobia, homophobia, etc. if the galaxy were suddenly to be bereft of aliens and daemons to fight. But for now, the out-group is large and powerful enough that the in-group is being pretty inclusive.

Just making a blanket statement that yup they'd be accepted also feels like it's underplaying the struggles trans people are having right now to get their place in society.

Racism is also a huge struggle in the modern world, but the imperium doesn't seem to care much about ethnicity either. Do you have similar feelings about the fact that no one goes out of their way to comment on the race of Erastus Lamertine from Void King or Zelia Lor from Warhammer Adventures (both depicted as black on the cover art of their books)? Do you feel that we're "underplaying the struggles" of people of color when we've pointed out that racism doesn't seem to be a thing in the imperium elsewhere in this thread?

(Tbf, classism is absolutely a thing in the imperium, and that can potentially tie into a person's planet of origin; see: any time someone expects a Fenrisian to be a dumb brute. But that stems from wearing animal pelts and such rather than stemming from race directly.)

Also, this is mostly a distraction from the main topic, but...

Perhaps it would vary from world to world, culture to culture. I doubt it'd go well in Tallern, an islam analog.

They're noted to be religiously fanatical, even more so than the average guardsmen.

"Obviously the Tallarn must be transphobic because they're just like muslims! What do you mean they aren't muslims? They're religious extremists aren't they?!"

I'm sure you can see how that doesn't come across great...

I don't see why you're trying to pour real life biases into this fictional universe.

Maybe the 40k writers don't ever say "yup this character is trans" because it's simply not relevant to the universe at all.

I saw a guy go on an absolute tirade about Owlcat - the developers of the new Rogue Trader RPG - 'hiding' gay relationships and locking them only to a single late-game character, who happens to be a sadomasochistic Dark Eldar, and that that was Owlcat making a statement about gay people, eventually devolving into screaming about how "The Hets get everything!". It was truly bizarre.

Never even occurred to him that, in the context of the universe in question, these things just aren't that important. They're in no way related to the central themes of the universe - that of war, conquest, and, in the case of Rogue Traders, profit! - and so why would they emphasise or highlight them in any significant fashion?

"Where are the trans people in 40k?" isn't the right question to ask because it's not important in the context of the setting, and trying to inject utterly irrelevant modern politics into fantasy settings is a surefire way to kill them.

Not everything needs to allegorical.
Not everything has to have real-world parallels.
Not everything has to address any modern social issues of the moment.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
You've got yourself a classic Fallacy of the Undistributed Middle there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_undistributed_middle

Oh cool. Never heard of that one before.

I'm learnding!

Also, my reply above isn't to you Wyld. I wrote it as you were writing yours.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

I saw a guy go on an absolute tirade about Owlcat - the developers of the new Rogue Trader RPG - 'hiding' gay relationships and locking them only to a single late-game character, who happens to be a sadomasochistic Dark Eldar, and that that was Owlcat making a statement about gay people, eventually devolving into screaming about how "The Hets get everything!". It was truly bizarre.

Never even occurred to him that, in the context of the universe in question, these things just aren't that important. They're in no way related to the central themes of the universe - that of war, conquest, and, in the case of Rogue Traders, profit! - and so why would they emphasise or highlight them in any significant fashion?

"Where are the trans people in 40k?" isn't the right question to ask because it's not important in the context of the setting, and trying to inject utterly irrelevant modern politics into fantasy settings is a surefire way to kill them.

Speaking without knowing anything about the game or Owlcat, your friend may have a point there. If the only representation of gayness in your media is in the form of a sadistic villain, then you're sorta kinda indirectly tying those two concepts together. It's the same reason Disney queer-coding so many of their villains for so long isn't great in hindsight.

That said, I think I agree with the overall point that sexuality and gender just don't organically come up all that much in 40k. Heck, if anything 40k tends to steer clear of such topics in general (even straight sexuality) more than most media. A pretty high percentage of the BL novels and games out there are from the point of view of marines (whose sexualities and maybe genders are an... interesting case), and a significant chunk of the rest are about aliens to whom human sexualities and genders aren't necessarily applicable. Plus, we know that the BL editors essentially have combat scene quotas for their authors. So to get a discussion about a character's sexuality or gender, you have to squeeze it into a scene or novel that actually features non-astartes humans. And that's... not impossible (a few stories alluded to in this thread have done it), but the writing assignment doesn't make it easy either.

All of which is to say, I imagine quite a few of the guardsmen, imperial citizens, inquisitors, etc. that we've seen in the lore are trans or gay. It just doesn't come up much when they're trying to hold off a bunch of hormagaunts. (Although come to think of it, the inquisitor from Mark of Faith is explicitly gay iirc.)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
You've got yourself a classic Fallacy of the Undistributed Middle there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_undistributed_middle

Oh cool. Never heard of that one before.

I'm learnding!

Huzzah!

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Speaking without knowing anything about the game or Owlcat, your friend may have a point there. If the only representation of gayness in your media is in the form of a sadistic villain, then you're sorta kinda indirectly tying those two concepts together. It's the same reason Disney queer-coding so many of their villains for so long isn't great in hindsight.

I don't think that's true because it's an assumption of motive specifically to paint something as negative. Moreover I think that "coding" is bs (and often just used as an excuse to justify complaints), as it's so often people projecting their own impressions, preferences and biases on things absent the intent of the original author or themes of the work itself (we're seeing it in this thread!).

And, further to the specific point, I don't believe it's just one character who is gay, more that there are very few gay (male/male, to be specific) relationships in the game (2, I believe) and one of them is the Dark Eldar, hence the tirade.