Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 27-08-2013 - Leaked White Dwarf images added]

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**Exergy**

FlingitNow wrote:
Hammernators did need a points increase. As at the sane points as LC terminators only a complete moron would take LC Terminators and few in their right mind would take shooty terminators. Hammernators are the best Terminators therefore they should be more points than other Terminators.

Should Terminators be 40 points base? Well that's a different argument but with Baledrakes and Vector strikes and VWBs around Terminators look good in this meta. But you're largely paying for CC prowess which has been greatly curtailed in this edition. Terminators where great in the last Edition this time they are more situational with HG looking a better bet. Next edition they may be more prevalent again. But to suggest a Terminator with TH+SS should be a point LESS than one with Power Weapon and combibolter is frankly ludicrous. Perhaps Teinators at 35 base (with Chaos ones being 26) would have suited this edition better. However personally I think it would have made Terminators too good. .

Hammerators dont need a point drop. Lots of people take them, that 3++ is just that good.

regular ones probably could, but then as you said CSM and DA terminators would have needed to go down at the start of the edition.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Davespil wrote:

I get that there were tweeks to the armor in the last 10,000(?) years, but you figured they'd get more effective as far as the game goes. For example, MK-2 and MK-8 both offer the same protection in the game, T4, 3+, and just a 6" movement. In 10,000 years they couldn't have made them a bit better? Say T5, S5 or 2+, or 5++? Or make them lighter so they could move 7" or 8" inches? All they really did was make the armor more confortable and better looking in 10,000 years. Because nothing else they did made them more effective in combat. That always bothered me. I'd like to think in 10,000 years mankind would invent armor that would fully stop small arms fire.

10,000 years of which technology has consistantly been getting worse and all of the engineers and scientists(mechanicum) are just trying to maintain what was built before rather than innovate

Automatically Appended Next Post:

jah-joshua wrote:
anyone with real world military experience should be well aquainted with accepting logical fallacies...
hahahahaha...

the Dark Ages seems to be a very European thing...
the Arabs, the Chinese, and the Japanese were all making scientific and technological advances throughout the European Middle Age...
of course, 40K is written from the European perspective...

China had their own period of decline and deinnovation in different period. They also had civil wars that were so destructive they consumed centuries worth of progress in a couple years.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zappit wrote:

Honestly, Chaos just ought to use this codex.

Hear me out. The Chaos marines have a pretty bland, underwhelming codex, and these guys are supposed to be on the cusp of destroying the Imperium? The new units aren't wildly exciting - Warp Talons are overpriced and vulnerable, Mutilators are slow and have too few attacks, the daemon engines have low WS/BS to be major threats, Hellbrutes are wonderful exploding statues, and cultists couldn't hold an objective if they were nailed to it. The only new unit that would suck to lose is the Helldrake.

Loyalist Marines have everything their heretic counterparts need. They have anti-air. They have ATSKNF. They will have tactics allowing more distinct armies with a wide variety of stategies. They have better Land Raiders. They have Drop Pods.

Get inventive with your fluff, and it will make sense. Iron Warriors using Iron Hands tactics or taking advantage of that UM Devastator oath? Makes sense to me. You know what Chaos Legion, like the Black Templars, would possess an incredible crusading style? Word Bearers. Night Lords and Raven Guard. The Imperial Fists sure are stubborn, just like The Flawless Host, who are so arrogant they can't see themselves failing. It's not very hard.

I hate my CSM army. I bring 1 heldrake, and i still get groans and discust from everyone i play (O that cheese). I wish i could build a somewhat competant army without spamming either plague marines or heldrakes. Furthermore I hate half the demonic stuff and the silly boon table of suck. I am already planning up my conversion to renegade iron hands.

**tvih**

Exergy wrote:

I hate my CSM army. I bring 1 heldrake, and i still get groans and discust from everyone i play (O that cheese). I wish i could build a somewhat competant army without spamming either plague marines or heldrakes. Furthermore I hate half the demonic stuff and the silly boon table of suck. I am already planning up my conversion to renegade iron hands.

I'm finally assembling some of my CSM stuff, as BT stuff has take my attention for the past year. I have a Heldrake I bought along with the other CSM stuff in early December, but honestly I'm not sure if I'll ever end up building that. It really is such a stupid unit that I'd feel so bad about using even one that I'll probably just skip it. Should probably find a buyer for it

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Hmm, a Black Templars Chapter Master with the EW relic, 3++ and a Thunder Hammer would murder the everliving crap out of most things in a challenge. Although he'd have slightly less oomph than our current Master of Sanctity on the charge, he'd have an extra wound, real Eternal Warrior and rerolls all the time in challenges. Screw the Emperor's Champion, I'm getting a Marshal!

Only just realized this? It was about time you got on with the times

**xxvaderxx**

Ultramarines - Combat Doctrine:
This detachment can utilize each of the following combat doctrines once per game.

Lol, amazing how one extra line, set U marines from top dog, to yet again meh...

**FlingitNow**

xxvaderxx wrote:

Ultramarines - Combat Doctrine:
This detachment can utilize each of the following combat doctrines once per game.

Lol, amazing how one extra line, set U marines from top dog, to yet again meh...

Did you really think for one second Ultramarines would get blanket rerolls to hit all the time on their Tac squads? Seriously you thought that was a possibility?

I actually still really like the UM CTs and think it is probably still the best one. But they are all good though in different ways. The UM one for me is also the best for the game as it makes you make decisions and think.

**Davespil**

Exergy wrote:
FlingitNow wrote:
Hammernators did need a points increase. As at the sane points as LC terminators only a complete moron would take LC Terminators and few in their right mind would take shooty terminators. Hammernators are the best Terminators therefore they should be more points than other Terminators.

Should Terminators be 40 points base? Well that's a different argument but with Baledrakes and Vector strikes and VWBs around Terminators look good in this meta. But you're largely paying for CC prowess which has been greatly curtailed in this edition. Terminators where great in the last Edition this time they are more situational with HG looking a better bet. Next edition they may be more prevalent again. But to suggest a Terminator with TH+SS should be a point LESS than one with Power Weapon and combibolter is frankly ludicrous. Perhaps Teinators at 35 base (with Chaos ones being 26) would have suited this edition better. However personally I think it would have made Terminators too good. .

Hammerators dont need a point drop. Lots of people take them, that 3++ is just that good.

regular ones probably could, but then as you said CSM and DA terminators would have needed to go down at the start of the edition.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Davespil wrote:

I get that there were tweeks to the armor in the last 10,000(?) years, but you figured they'd get more effective as far as the game goes. For example, MK-2 and MK-8 both offer the same protection in the game, T4, 3+, and just a 6" movement. In 10,000 years they couldn't have made them a bit better? Say T5, S5 or 2+, or 5++? Or make them lighter so they could move 7" or 8" inches? All they really did was make the armor more confortable and better looking in 10,000 years. Because nothing else they did made them more effective in combat. That always bothered me. I'd like to think in 10,000 years mankind would invent armor that would fully stop small arms fire.

10,000 years of which technology has consistantly been getting worse and all of the engineers and scientists(mechanicum) are just trying to maintain what was built before rather than innovate

Automatically Appended Next Post:

jah-joshua wrote:
anyone with real world military experience should be well aquainted with accepting logical fallacies...
hahahahaha...

the Dark Ages seems to be a very European thing...
the Arabs, the Chinese, and the Japanese were all making scientific and technological advances throughout the European Middle Age...
of course, 40K is written from the European perspective...

China had their own period of decline and deinnovation in different period. They also had civil wars that were so destructive they consumed centuries worth of progress in a couple years.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zappit wrote:

Honestly, Chaos just ought to use this codex.

Hear me out. The Chaos marines have a pretty bland, underwhelming codex, and these guys are supposed to be on the cusp of destroying the Imperium? The new units aren't wildly exciting - Warp Talons are overpriced and vulnerable, Mutilators are slow and have too few attacks, the daemon engines have low WS/BS to be major threats, Hellbrutes are wonderful exploding statues, and cultists couldn't hold an objective if they were nailed to it. The only new unit that would suck to lose is the Helldrake.

Loyalist Marines have everything their heretic counterparts need. They have anti-air. They have ATSKNF. They will have tactics allowing more distinct armies with a wide variety of stategies. They have better Land Raiders. They have Drop Pods.

Get inventive with your fluff, and it will make sense. Iron Warriors using Iron Hands tactics or taking advantage of that UM Devastator oath? Makes sense to me. You know what Chaos Legion, like the Black Templars, would possess an incredible crusading style? Word Bearers. Night Lords and Raven Guard. The Imperial Fists sure are stubborn, just like The Flawless Host, who are so arrogant they can't see themselves failing. It's not very hard.

I hate my CSM army. I bring 1 heldrake, and i still get groans and discust from everyone i play (O that cheese). I wish i could build a somewhat competant army without spamming either plague marines or heldrakes. Furthermore I hate half the demonic stuff and the silly boon table of suck. I am already planning up my conversion to renegade iron hands.

There are a lot of cool ways you could convert SM models into Chaos SM. You could turn centurians into oblits and maulers. Put some guns on the helldrake and make it that ugly flyer (not the stormraven). Put wings on a chaos landraider and call it a storm raven... The funny thing is I do the exact opposite. Most of my CSM are SM models. I just have the defiler, heldrakes, demons, and characters.

My SM army can be Codex SM, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Chaos SM. And I think that its getting pretty popular with the cost of all the models and all of the new models coming out.I just tell everyone that my general can't make up his mind what kind of army he wants so he stole from everyone.

**Deadshot**

Exergy wrote:
Davespil wrote:
I love how you have 6-7 different versions of power armor over the course of the hobby but the only change game-wise has been aesthetic. I think 3rd ed was Mark 2 or 3 and the new space Marines are on 7 or 8. Yet, the armor has not gotten better in anyway. Still a 3+, still a T4, and they aren't moving any faster. So what was the reason for the changes in armor? Did the Imperium just want to keep up with the latest fashions in power armor?

Yeah, I get that maybe they are bit more comfortable and easier to produce. But after all of these modification wouldn't they offer more protection? Or at least make the SM tougher or faster?

They get cheaper and easier to repair

No they dont get any better on a d6 scale. Where the difference between a man and a space marine is 1 point of strength and toughness and the difference between a man in carpace armor and SM power armor is also only 1 point on a d6 scale no minor improvement are going to change anything.

Also Mk4 maximus armor was made when the imperium was at its greatest technological level and thus everything made after it is like trying to build a PS4 with bits from radio shack.

That's wrong because the Mk6 was meant to be an improvement, offering minor, slightly more sensible placement of components and lighter gears for no loss in protection and had better autosenses. The Mk 7 improved this further and the Mk8 further still with redesjgned breatplates, helmets, collars, etc.

**Daba**

And the Mk6 still has a better helmet design practically.

**Valhalla130**

I don't know. Falling down face first could cause major trauma to the neck, with a beaky helmet. lol

**Krellnus**

Daba wrote:
And the Mk6 still has a better helmet design practically.

True, there is no protection like the fanboy flameshield is there?

Will say that I am looking forward to this release, some new models for my greenwing.

**BlackRaven1987!!**

FlingitNow wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:

Ultramarines - Combat Doctrine:
This detachment can utilize each of the following combat doctrines once per game.

Lol, amazing how one extra line, set U marines from top dog, to yet again meh...

Did you really think for one second Ultramarines would get blanket rerolls to hit all the time on their Tac squads? Seriously you thought that was a possibility?

I actually still really like the UM CTs and think it is probably still the best one. But they are all good though in different ways. The UM one for me is also the best for the game as it makes you make decisions and think.

100% agree

**macc92**

Does anyone know if the banners/standards will do anything like in C: DA? (i.e. devastation and whatnot)

**Shadox**

macc92 wrote:
Does anyone know if the banners/standards will do anything like in C: DA? (i.e. devastation and whatnot)

IIRC there will be the classic Chapter/Company Banners which seem to work the same as they do now and one Standard in the relic section. Sadly we don't know what it does so far.

**ClockworkZion**

macc92 wrote:
Does anyone know if the banners/standards will do anything like in C: DA? (i.e. devastation and whatnot)

Chapter Banner/Company Standard unchanged from what 40k Radio said in the past. No idea about the Relic one yet.

**GuardRalph**

Globs of snot! The rumors look tasty.
Now how much beer do i have to give up to front a $50+ book. Me has a idea...work an overtime. Score!
Yarp, I am going to spend much time with that book.

**ClockworkZion**

Q: Okay, does Kantor have the Imperial Fist Chapter Tactic or not? Because if he -does- then he should follow the same rules for allying chapters which says that if two chapters have the same Chapter Tactics that they use the same detachment.You guys mentioned Lysander and Kantor being in the same detachment specifically in the show, then say they can't on here, so which is it?
A: Sorry, they can be. It's late and I misspoke/mistyped. Trying to answer question before I go to bed.
A2 (Follow-up): He [Kantor] can be in the same detachment but only Crimson Fists benefit from his Hold the Line and Oath of Rynn special rules

**TechMarine1**

I'm just wondering, but are grav weapons relics of the great crusade or something?

Okay, and now back to the regularly scheduled program. Not sure if anyone asked this before, but is it going to be possible to run the reserve companies?

**xruslanx**

frozenwastes wrote:
xruslanx wrote:
Yeah, anyone wierded out by cyber-cherubs must have been suffering some form of selective blindness for the last decade or so, because they've been plastered all over the page margins of rulebooks and the artworks for that whole time.

While they did appear on some models related to the various branches of the Inquisition, it is only recently that GW has decided to start plastering them on Space Marine miniatures. I don't know what designer thought it was a good idea to put cherub plumber's crack right on the front of a character model.

...do you just go around this website slagging off GW for anything and everything you can? Cherubs have been a part of Western culture for centuries, if you can't look at a child's body without immediately being offended by it, then that's definitely your problem.

HUR HUR HUR BABY DICKS, HUR HUR STUPID RENAISSANCE SCULTORS WITH BABY DICKS.

**ClockworkZion**

TechMarine1 wrote:
I'm just wondering, but are grav weapons relics of the great crusade or something?

Okay, and now back to the regularly scheduled program. Not sure if anyone asked this before, but is it going to be possible to run the reserve companies?

In order:

They predate the Heresy, but they're not relics. They've been employed as recently as the Badab War.

And no. Not outside of Apoc.

**frozenwastes**

xruslanx wrote:
...do you just go around this website slagging off GW for anything and everything you can?

There are aspects of the 40k and WFB universes that I really like (like Kroot and Chaos Warriors and the Horus Heresy audiobooks) but I'm not going to withhold my criticism of the stuff I don't just because you can't handle it without getting all worked up and mocking.

Cherubs have been a part of Western culture for centuries, if you can't look at a child's body without immediately being offended by it, then that's definitely your problem.

It's not about being offended. It's about it them being silly.

Cherubs may indeed have a long history in art, but it's generally not associated with martial traditions. It's like if they put unicorns on marines and people say "unicorns been a part of Western culture for centuries" to justify it.

.

**davou**

Leprechauns and count chocula are hardly a good comparison. Neither are unicorns.

The imperium of man has a very Gothic christian theme to it and cherubs fit in fantastically. When you consider that it's probably the body of a child that's been servitored' it only gets more noire. Very 40k

**ClockworkZion**

frozenwastes wrote:
xruslanx wrote:
...do you just go around this website slagging off GW for anything and everything you can?

There are aspects of the 40k and WFB universes that I really like (like Kroot and Chaos Warriors and the Horus Heresy audiobooks) but I'm not going to withhold my criticism of the stuff I don't just because you can't handle it without getting all worked up and mocking.

Cherubs have been a part of Western culture for centuries, if you can't look at a child's body without immediately being offended by it, then that's definitely your problem.

It's not about being offended. It's about it them being silly.

Cherubs may indeed have a long history in art, but it's generally not associated with martial traditions. It's like if they put unicorns on marines and people say "unicorns been a part of Western culture for centuries" to justify it.

.

You mean the Unicorn, which represents Scotland on the Royal coat of arms for the United Kingdom? It could work, but someone needs to be wearing a kilt.

**Azreal13**

davou wrote:
Leprechauns and count chocula are hardly a good comparison. Neither are unicorns.

The imperium of man has a very Gothic christian theme to it and cherubs fit in fantastically. When you consider that it's probably the body of a child that's been servitored' it only gets more noire. Very 40k

Cherubs absolutely fit with the visual themes of 40K, just not in a combat setting IMO.

Stick them on buildings, have those servitor-y type ones floating around a tech priest or Inquisitor in a Black Library book, but the juxtaposition between giant, genhanced über warrior and flying baby is just a bit too daft for my aesthetic sense to accept.

**frozenwastes**

Yep. It has nothing to do with not belonging in the 40k universe, but on the battlefield alongside power armour genemodified super warriors.

**Insurgency Walker**

Oh, I'm pretty sure that if I could bring a nasty cherub that showed it's butt to the enemy and got blasted to smithereens every battle I'd do it. I'd fething video it and play back a montage of the antics over a beer every decade or so.

Back on topic. Just a few more days to preorders!

**ClockworkZion**

Insurgency Walker wrote:
Oh, I'm pretty sure that if I could bring a nasty cherub that showed it's butt to the enemy and got blasted to smithereens every battle I'd do it. I'd fething video it and play back a montage of the antics over a beer every decade or so.

Back on topic. Just a few more days to preorders!

A few more days to the WD and GW putting 360s of all the new stuff for use to ogle.

**Jamo**

Ok I'm entitled to an opinion so here it is.

The idea of floating infants in an apolalyptic future is completely naff.

My army of space marines is a fully focused, determined, fearless machine of war.

I will NOT ruin that aesthetic by introducing naked, vomiting, pooping, wailing babies into my army.

I'd also like to know who feeds them? Would your hardened genetically modified, über, super fighting chapter master lend his teet to the howling poop machine in the heat of battle?

I think not.

EPIC FAIL.

In my humble OPINION.

**cadbren**

ClockworkZion wrote:
You mean the Unicorn, which represents Scotland on the Royal coat of arms for the United Kingdom? It could work, but someone needs to be wearing a kilt.

That would be the cherub then people would complain about upskirt.

Cherubim are of the same type as servo skulls. Servo skulls aren't exactly martial either yet they still got into the devastator box. Librarians used to have familiars, are they getting them back or is this just decorative?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jamo wrote:
Ok I'm entitled to an opinion so here it is.

The idea of floating infants in an apolalyptic future is completely naff.

My army of space marines is a fully focused, determined, fearless machine of war.

I will NOT ruin that aesthetic by introducing naked, vomiting, pooping, wailing babies into my army.

I'd also like to know who feeds them? Would your hardened genetically modified, über, super fighting chapter master lend his teet to the howling poop machine in the heat of battle?

I think not.

EPIC FAIL.

In my humble OPINION.

Cherubs are not actually alive in that sense. I'm not sure they even started as alive, they could be machines covered in synthi-skin. Some of the fluff I've read has them used as part of a security system.
If they are alive then the same question could be asked of servitors and you'd get the same answer - they'd be programmed to go dump somewhere.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know, thinking about it, chaos marines really should have a baby stuck on a spike accessory, it would be perfect for them.
Can't see an official one being done though.

**ClockworkZion**

Jamo wrote:
Ok I'm entitled to an opinion so here it is.

The idea of floating infants in an apolalyptic future is completely naff.

My army of space marines is a fully focused, determined, fearless machine of war.

I will NOT ruin that aesthetic by introducing naked, vomiting, pooping, wailing babies into my army.

I'd also like to know who feeds them? Would your hardened genetically modified, über, super fighting chapter master lend his teet to the howling poop machine in the heat of battle?

I think not.

EPIC FAIL.

In my humble OPINION.

You know that the baby is likely a lobotomized body stuffed full of circuitry and bionics right? I don't think it CAN poop. The living tissue probably lives off some kind of special nutrient liquid injected into what's left of it's circulatory system. It's basically a Servo Skull with extra bits.

Why? I'm betting to key into the baroque stylings that the Imperium borrows from, along with the gothic feel and making everything a parody of things. I'm pretty sure the design meeting went like this:

"I think it's missing something."

"Oh! I know! They used to put cherubs on things!"

"That's a smashing good idea chap! Now how are we going to make it dark enough for outsetting so it fits in and people see it as being intentionally over the top?"

"How about the cherubs are made from dead babies, and are covered in cables, wires and obvious bionics?"

"BRILLIANT."

And frankly I'm okay with this.

**CKO**

What are we discussing? I would like to get some actual pre - release tactic discussion going about chapter tactics but it seems that we are talking about a baby and 40k lore?

**davou**

Jamo wrote:
Ok I'm entitled to an opinion so here it is.

The idea of floating infants in an apolalyptic future is completely naff.

My army of space marines is a fully focused, determined, fearless machine of war.

I will NOT ruin that aesthetic by introducing naked, vomiting, pooping, wailing babies into my army.

I'd also like to know who feeds them? Would your hardened genetically modified, über, super fighting chapter master lend his teet to the howling poop machine in the heat of battle?

I think not.

EPIC FAIL.

In my humble OPINION.

AFAIK, servitors dont poop, puke or eat. They just do whatever they were lobotomized to do, and kinda rot on their frames. Why do you think they're some kind of magical fairy instead of the desecrated corpse of an infant that was culled to become a tool that it is?