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 CKO wrote:
What are we discussing? I would like to get some actual pre - release tactic discussion going about chapter tactics but it seems that we are talking about a baby and 40k lore?

Actually we're discussing personal opinions about model aesthetics regarding the cherubs on models like the new Librarian model.

As for tactics, my method is to slap things together and then tinker with it until it works.

That said my primary goal is to get that Battle Company formation built, but I'm looking at some of these other things with interest. I'd love to see an updated Chapter Organization chart that explains how all these tanks, Centurions and aircraft fit into the chapter now. I'm hoping the new book has it.

Yep. Some might be interested in game play. Other people are interested in models, aesthetics and background fiction.

The only reason I give the servo skull a pass is that skulls and images of death are part of martial traditions and while they can be over the top, they're not as over the top as winged babies.

I happen to think drones that monitor things and carry out simple tasks are awesome. I just don't think they are improved by putting a winged baby suit on them and then putting those alongside genetically engineered space warriors.

They aren't babies. They are cherubs.

Babies can't fly....(well that I know of ).

They are servitors modeled to look like the "child-like angels of ancient Terran myth to symbolise their purity in the eyes of the Emperor.". They are not sentient.

If you don't like them, luckily, you don't have to buy the model or use it. But saying they don't fit into the 40k setting or "theme" is asinine.

Orock wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Just to give you guys a little preview of the rough draft I have created for the army I plan to build! I was able to get a great deal for some Crisis Suits that I had and was able to purchase x5 Drop Pods and x2 Stormtalons for them and this is what I am planning so let me know what you think! :

Spoiler:

Raven Guard Drop-Pod Assault Group Raptor

Chapter Tactic:

-Imperial Fists

HQ:

-Shadow Captain Aleron (Pedro Kantor)

ELITE:

-x10 Sternguard (*Combat Squad*)
*w/ x1 or x2 Combi Melta
-Drop Pod

-x10 Sternguard (*Combat Squad*)
*w/ x1 or x2 Combi Melta
-Drop Pod

-x10 Sternguard (*Combat Squad*)
*w/ x1 or x2 Combi Melta
-Drop Pod

TROOPS:

-x5 Tac Marines
*w/ Melta (or) Flamer (or) Grav Gun
-Drop Pod

-x5 Tac Marines
*w/ Melta (or) Flamer (or) Grav Gun
-Drop Pod

FAST ATTACK:

-Stormtalon
*w/ TL-Lascannon

-Stormtalon
*w/ TL-Lascannon

HEAVY SUPPORT:

-Thunderfire Cannon
*w/ Drop Pod

-Thunderfire Cannon
*w/ Drop Pod

Now just to make sure, will x5 man Tac Squads be able to take Drop Pods like the Space Wolf Codex? Or will they have to be x10 man (looked on here could not find it). Also any word if Thunderfire Cannons will remain or be relentless? Thanks for helping a new Space Marine player out!

minimalist troops.
no thunder hammer termies in imperial fists
using crimson fist character to lead imperial fists army, allowed or not

2/10, would not purge xenos with.

seriously, why not paint your guys crimson fists. Same chapter tactics but your army represents them much better.

Maybe because I want to do a Raven Guard army (which large numbers of Sternguard perfectly fit the fluff) and just because the new Codex forced me to do the list that wish to run this way, does not mean I should be forced into doing another chapter that I have no real interest about. And what is with that 2/10 ratio, just because YOU do not like it does not automatically make it a bad army? Get real man, you do not have to like it but does not mean you have to trash it.

I want to do a Raven Guard army which are very Spec Ops when it comes to tactics and Drop Poding in with elite infantry with them makes perfect sense (as it is mentioned in their fluff they are very flexible when it comes to the Codex Astartes and will utilize anything if it means they will achieve victory). Yes in regards to this new book it is the "wrong" chapter tactic but all that means is that it will help the rest of my army out. I love Sternguard and they are the whole reason I am doing a Marine army in the first place, so of course I am going to do whatever I can to run as many as them as effectively as possible, not running them for the chapter tactic.

I'd like to mention to all of you to consider saving the cherub bits from the models if you buy the marine and don't plan on using the parts you find silly or what have you. Some of us would be more than willing to trade or buy them from you for scenery or Inquisitor conversions. I think they are cool for the setting but impractical for my Deathwing. They will be perfect for my Inquisitorial warband in skirmish games however.

It's a tautology that an element of 40k fits in 40k. It's a meaningless statement. What people are expressing is whether or not they like them and whether or not they fit with the martial appearance of Space Marines. It's relatively new to find miniatures with flying babies on them among the Space Marine product line.

 frozenwastes wrote:
It's a tautology that an element of 40k fits in 40k. It's a meaningless statement. What people are expressing is whether or not they like them and whether or not they fit with the martial appearance of Space Marines. It's relatively new to find miniatures with flying babies on them among the Space Marine product line.

Maybe among the Marines themselves, but Sisters had them in 3rd with Saint Celestine and both the Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters shared Inquisitor model packs which came with them too (I use the ones I've collected as objective markers!).

And when it comes to Marines there are so many different flavors (seriously think of a historical army of some kind, preferably ancient history, like Roman Legionnaires, Spartans, Mongols, ect. There is a Marine army for ALL of those any more. There is even room for Marine armies that haven't even been touched on. I've seen people who've taken the idea of the Rainbow Warriors and based them on the Aztechs) so when you get down to it, if it fits or not really has nothing to do with the army, but how you choose to approach the army and what it's flavor is.

Also, in the past when Librarians were upgraded for extra powers they bought Familiars...it seems GW finally released a model with one finally. 3 Editions later.

I still dig it. I think the Librarian looks great either way.

For some reason the cherubs bother me a lot less on Sisters or Inquisitors. It's like I expect them to have angelic iconography and visual elements but I don't expect it on the typical codex compliant marine. I find it very out of place there.

 frozenwastes wrote:
For some reason the cherubs bother me a lot less on Sisters or Inquisitors. It's like I expect them to have angelic iconography and visual elements but I don't expect it on the typical codex compliant marine. I find it very out of place there.

You know there are some chapters that are just as religious and the like as the Sisters, right? I could see them using them. Same for chapters like the Salamanders who pride themselves on their artistry in addition to their combat prowess. I'm not saying every chapter needs them or should have them, but I think there are a fair few that could get away with running around with them.

 CKO wrote:
What are we discussing? I would like to get some actual pre - release tactic discussion going about chapter tactics but it seems that we are talking about a baby and 40k lore?

I've been thinking about Imperial Fists tactics, namely the best way to run a Pedro Sternguard force. That seems like it could be a potent tabletop force.

- Tactical squads can now do double melta (special weapon at 5 plus combi-weapon on sergeant), which strikes me as a great way to wreck vehicles on turn 1 from a drop pod. You have to take two, but this seems like a good way to use them, and they are a solid distraction.
- Sternguard getting a price drop and scoring with Pedro are always potent.
- Devastators with Tank Hunters, so I was thinking of taking 2 units of 10 guys, one with 4 ML (frag and krak), one with 2 lascannons and 2 MLs (frag, krak, and flakk), and take a Quad gun too. Pump out four str 7, six str 8, and two str 9 shots a turn, with rerolls to armor pen. Also, with combat squads you can make four separate targets, making it really hard to kill them all before they can make a major impact, and any flyers that aren't AV12 get shot up really bad the moment they hit the table, and the turn immediately after too.

My base idea was to take two units of each plus Pedro and a quad gun/ADL, and then fill out the rest of the list.

My current idea is that at 2K I would take all that, a Stormraven, and then ally in Tigurius and another unit of melta tacticals.

Also, if I end up in a game shop where people are allowed to choose their psychic powers...Tigurius is going to be OP as hell with Sternguard running around.

Divination Power Foreboding - Sternguard get counterattack and fire overwatch at BS4. Come. At. Me. BRO!
Divination Power Prescience - Re-roll to hits on Sternguard? Who needs that silly UM or IF chapter tactic. And since it's To-Hit, that means melee AND Special Ammo shooting AND overwatch.
Divination Forewarning - 4++. Hey Baleturkey, go **** yourself.
Divination Misfortune - Enemy unit must reroll successful saving throws eh? Excuse me while I turn on hellfire rounds...
Biomancy Enfeeble - negative 1 str and toughness basically means MEQs and worse get blown up right quick. 3+s to wound with Vengeance rounds? Thank you very much.
Biomancy Endurance - Sternguard with FNP, IWND, and RELENTLESS!? Excuse me while I pour a ton of fire into you AND then charge you.

Pick pretty much any of those 3 and your sternguard become a ridiculously deadly force. I'd probably take Prescience, Misfortune, and Endurance. That's a nasty combo. Get in a Stormraven or Land Raider that's only moved 6". Hop out, fire bolters, getting rerolls. Use best ammo to cause most damage. All successful saving throws (assuming they even get any) get rerolled. Charge because of relentless. Reroll melee to-hits. Enemy again rerolls successful saving throws.

Alternatively, take Foreboding, Prescience, and Misfortune, and load them into Rhinos. Hop out, fire, and wait for them to come at you. Two shooting phases and counter-attack? Please and thank you.

I have a feeling that there are very very few infantry units in the game that wouldn't be completely eliminated in one turn from something like that. Maybe 10 Terminators.

Of course, if you can't pick powers it's harder, but you can always take prescience, and you're pretty likely to get one of those good divination ones with the power choice rerolling Tigurius can do.

Also, Misfortune and Prescience combo seems like a great way to murder Monstrous Creatures, up to and including uppity Wraithknights. Reroll missed bolter shots, use Hellfire rounds to wound on 2+, and then they have to reroll saves, which, with a 3+ regular save means that Wraithknight means, assuming 18 bolter shots, you get 16 hits, 13ish wounds, of which about 9 will be saved and 4 missed, and of which 3 of those 9 rerolled successful ones will be failed, resulting in 7 wounds from hellfire shooting. Dead Wraithknight.

Also dead anything bigger than a Termagaunt from codex Tyranids when it comes out.

ClockworkZion wrote:
You know there are some chapters that are just as religious and the like as the Sisters, right? I could see them using them. Same for chapters like the Salamanders who pride themselves on their artistry in addition to their combat prowess. I'm not saying every chapter needs them or should have them, but I think there are a fair few that could get away with running around with them.

And I guess that's part of the appeal of Space Marines. There's a chapter or chapter style for everyone. I just don't like it when the idiosyncratic elements appear on common models. Hopefully they'll be optional bits and not too deeply integrated into the models. Or there will be alternative models that don't have them for those who find them silly or undesirable.

Does anyone feel like the new UM chapter tactics will actually "force" me to play a more balanced army list? I think so and i like it. When i first heard about the one time use i was bummed, then i figured it gave me a great deal of tactical flexibility with my units, but also limited me on what units i could bring to the fight to get the most effectiveness. This plays out just like Ultramarines in fluff with their adherence to the Codex Astartes. This REALLY makes me want to play them more. Additionally, I will now have a reason to run bikes and/or assault squads for the first time, and use them as a 1-2 punch to quickly contest an objective or swoop onto a weak enemy fireline or heavy weapon emplacement. It does seem like i will be locked into playing devastators more though, but im ok with that, it just looks like my second predator will have to suffer for it (sorry, TFC always comes to the party!). Besides, the devs option could be an excellent choice for when you anticipate you will be assualted, and it may even act as a nice deterrent! Regardless of this speculation, i think the 6 full tact squads I have lying around are about to hit the table hard and fast, go blue tide!

 CKO wrote:
What are we discussing? I would like to get some actual pre - release tactic discussion going about chapter tactics but it seems that we are talking about a baby and 40k lore?

We're discussing the new models. If you want to talk about some other aspect of the new release then do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NickTheButcher wrote:
They aren't babies. They are cherubs.

Babies can't fly....(well that I know of ).

Actually they fly through the air quite well. The problem is that babies don't have landing gear so they tend to crumple upon landing.

 frozenwastes wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
You know there are some chapters that are just as religious and the like as the Sisters, right? I could see them using them. Same for chapters like the Salamanders who pride themselves on their artistry in addition to their combat prowess. I'm not saying every chapter needs them or should have them, but I think there are a fair few that could get away with running around with them.

And I guess that's part of the appeal of Space Marines. There's a chapter or chapter style for everyone. I just don't like it when the idiosyncratic elements appear on common models. Hopefully they'll be optional bits and not too deeply integrated into the models. Or there will be alternative models that don't have them for those who find them silly or undesirable.

My thoughts exactly, but for the roman decoration on armour.

Blurry product photos and a products list have leaked!
http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/08/space-marine-product-leaks.html

ClockworkZion wrote:
Blurry product photos and a products list have leaked!
http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/08/space-marine-product-leaks.html

Mephiston Red in spray can form!? Hot Damn! This will make painting BA and Khorne Daemons ten times easier!

 frozenwastes wrote:
Cherubs may indeed have a long history in art, but it's generally not associated with martial traditions. It's like if they put unicorns on marines and people say "unicorns been a part of Western culture for centuries" to justify it.

Cherub-like figures aren't that uncommon in military portraiture (Titian's "Portrait of a Military Commander"), sculptures that commemorate military victories (the "Heroic Putti" of the Mariensäule in Munich), portraits of kings who wanted to project an image of martial power (Parmigianino's "Allegorical Portrait of Charles V"). or images of warrior saints (Anthony Van Dyck's "St. George and the Dragon"). That's in addition to the extremely frequent use of such figures as decorative elements in tombs of military figures and as decorative elements to display coats of arms in various media. That's not an exhaustive list by any means; from the Renaissance through to the Baroque, such figures were pretty much associated with every tradition.

Personally, I don't really take the cherubs on 40K miniatures very seriously at all. They're stylistic elements to make the figures more engaging and fun, just like the extremely convenient pile of rocks that my Jet Pack Chaplain is forever landing on top of. Of course, I don't take much of anything in 40K very seriously. Not even the Space Marines. I mean, we are talking about a universe with chainsaw swords, NCOs with massive fists that they punch tanks to death with, and Space Mongols. On motorcycles. Is the cherub element on the new librarian more or less ridiculous than werewolf space Vikings? How do I even begin to gauge that?

DogofWar1 wrote:
- Devastators with Tank Hunters, so I was thinking of taking 2 units of 10 guys, one with 4 ML (frag and krak), one with 2 lascannons and 2 MLs (frag, krak, and flakk), and take a Quad gun too. Pump out four str 7, six str 8, and two str 9 shots a turn, with rerolls to armor pen. Also, with combat squads you can make four separate targets, making it really hard to kill them all before they can make a major impact, and any flyers that aren't AV12 get shot up really bad the moment they hit the table, and the turn immediately after too.

Ironically the Undaunted (DIY Chapter) Primarch is Rogal Dorn and I will be using the Imperial Fist Chapter Tactic! I want to take advantage of the tank hunter rule. I plan on using two squads of ten with a defense line with a quad cannon. They will all have MLs with the flakk upgrade one squad will have a las-plas razorback. The squad in the razorback will be able to bring some extra bolter drill fire power and I am sure my opponent will be caught off guard by tank hunter krak grenades.

I plan on bringing 2-3 Tactical squads to take advantage of Bolter Drill. They will have graviton guns and combi-grav guns so they can be a threat to everything. If our assault squads cost the same as DA I will be using one squad, around 100 points for 2 flamers and a combi-flamer in a drop pod sounds great to me. Three flamers followed by bolter drill tactical squad sounds like a dead unit.

My hq depends mostly on the relics which atm we don't know much about them I hope they are great, I would love to be able to create my own Chapter Master 4 atks and 4 wounds base is a great stat line to work with. I am also considering having 2 lv 2 librarians using either biomancy or telepathy depending on the opponent. Four out of the 6 biomancy powers are good, and 5 of the 6 telepathy are good.

Side note Tigurius is worth allying in like you said the divination chart with his rules is just but fluff wise I don't want to do it. To be honest I don't want to use Lysander he is a beast but not 230 beast, if he only has 3 attacks I don't think he is worth it.

ClockworkZion wrote:
Blurry product photos and a products list have leaked!
http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/08/space-marine-product-leaks.html

Deathwatch Strike Force One Click Bundle? Nice!


Space Marine One Click Chapter? Lolwut? £10,000 + £X,000 in FW gear?

 FlingitNow wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

Ultramarines - Combat Doctrine:
This detachment can utilize each of the following combat doctrines once per game.

Lol, amazing how one extra line, set U marines from top dog, to yet again meh...

Did you really think for one second Ultramarines would get blanket rerolls to hit all the time on their Tac squads? Seriously you thought that was a possibility?

Tau firewarriors get similar effect by paying a couple of points, I do not think bolter/bolt pistol rerolls would have been too much. On the other hand that would have put UM way above the rest in C:SM.

I actually still really like the UM CTs and think it is probably still the best one. But they are all good though in different ways. The UM one for me is also the best for the game as it makes you make decisions and think.

I am also happy to see the various doctrines, but I did expect more after seeing how battle focus worked. Disappointed in the end? Yes, I am. Hoping for BA codex goodies, but as everything has been set already in place with DA and SM codexes, I am not holding my breath.

 Deadshot wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
Blurry product photos and a products list have leaked!
http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/08/space-marine-product-leaks.html

Space Marine One Click Chapter? Lolwut? £10,000 + £X,000 in FW gear?

Saw that too. My wife would divorce me if I spent $13,000 on plastic toy soldiers in one go......

Here's to the single life!!!

Pics of the new Space Marines packs
http://forofreakfactory.mforos.com/1035375/11287203-marines-espaciales-fotos-y-rumores-nuevos-a-dia-27/?pag=2#103355859

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Hmm, a Black Templars Chapter Master with the EW relic, 3++ and a Thunder Hammer would murder the everliving crap out of most things in a challenge. Although he'd have slightly less oomph than our current Master of Sanctity on the charge, he'd have an extra wound, real Eternal Warrior and rerolls all the time in challenges. Screw the Emperor's Champion, I'm getting a Marshal!

Consider taking a Marshal with a lightning claw and storm shield instead. I know the thunder hammer seems awesome, but you get the Shred special rule with the claw. Its still an AP3 weapon that will strike at initiative. You get all the attacks plus reroll misses due to CT...then you get to reroll all your wounds due to Shred, which in the end will raise the chances of you getting Rending from the CT as well. I like the thunder hammer too, but I DO love getting him into challenges where he has a good initiative and all these USRs. Also...a lightning claw marshal COMPLETELY wrecks face against normal units he charges.

Cherubs have been depicted in 40k artwork since the black and white drawings of the Emperor's throne room - back somewhere around 2E, if not before.

In the past, they've usually been depicted only in pictures on Earth, around the Emperor's palace. I believe this is the first time we're finally seeing them on models.

Check out p 135 for them being shown flitting around the emperor's throne room. p178 of latest rulebook for a "cherub" following a chaplain. And check the first page of the rulebook - cyborg cherubs and darkling sages gathered round a thunder hammer...

As for me, if I got the mini, I'd probably end up putting a plasma pistol in the squirt's hand - or maybe chop off an arm and put on an assault cannon - and on a tau drone flying base...

 Isean wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Hmm, a Black Templars Chapter Master with the EW relic, 3++ and a Thunder Hammer would murder the everliving crap out of most things in a challenge. Although he'd have slightly less oomph than our current Master of Sanctity on the charge, he'd have an extra wound, real Eternal Warrior and rerolls all the time in challenges. Screw the Emperor's Champion, I'm getting a Marshal!

Consider taking a Marshal with a lightning claw and storm shield instead. I know the thunder hammer seems awesome, but you get the Shred special rule with the claw. Its still an AP3 weapon that will strike at initiative. You get all the attacks plus reroll misses due to CT...then you get to reroll all your wounds due to Shred, which in the end will raise the chances of you getting Rending from the CT as well. I like the thunder hammer too, but I DO love getting him into challenges where he has a good initiative and all these USRs. Also...a lightning claw marshal COMPLETELY wrecks face against normal units he charges.

The thing about having a Thunder Hammer is that you smash multi-wound T4 models to pieces and have a shot at bringing Daemon Princes and the like down on the second turn due to Concussive. Meganobz, Chaos Sorcerers, Librarians, any Tau, IG, non-Avatar/Phoenix Lord Eldar, etc. all fold from just one wound from the Thunder Hammer. It's also more reliable against Monstrous Creatures and Vehicles, and kills 1-wound MEQ more dead than the Lightning Claw, just not as fast. If he comes up against Abaddon or someone else with I6+ the Thunder Hammer is, assuming he gets a wound through, going to let him to get a second round's worth of attacks in, whereas if he's in the second round of combat against Abaddon with a Lightning Claw, odds are he's going down before he gets to bounce his attacks off of Abaddon's 2+ armour save. Plus, if I wanted a Chapter Master with an AP3 weapon I'd go for Helbrecht (which I probably will anyway, but still).

I might run a double-LC Marshal just to get some use of the LC Sword Brother model, but that won't be because it's very good but because it looks boss.

Back on-topic: I know the preorders open on Saturday, but what time? Midnight GMT (as in, 00:01 GMT Saturday)?

So I've been wanting to incorporate Jump Pack assault marines into my army for some time, but never had because they are very ineffective and don't fit the fluff for my Salamanders.

Now, however, it looks like I'll be able to use them more effectively (at least more effective than they are currently) AND it will fit the fluff a bit more..

Allying in Ravenguard gives me a larger range for assault and will be a bit more fluffy with the whole Istvaan V thing...

I'm excited to give it a try. I also only need 2 Assault squads to finish my 1st battle company, so there's another plus.

Question is, should I be trying to add Vanguard in with it... or stick with just normal assault marines with a Chaplain and/or Shrike.

GAH! I THROWING MONEY AT MY MONITOR AND I'M NOT GETTING ANYTHING BACK.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
Does anyone feel like the new UM chapter tactics will actually "force" me to play a more balanced army list? I think so and i like it. When i first heard about the one time use i was bummed, then i figured it gave me a great deal of tactical flexibility with my units, but also limited me on what units i could bring to the fight to get the most effectiveness. This plays out just like Ultramarines in fluff with their adherence to the Codex Astartes. This REALLY makes me want to play them more.

My thoughts exactly... 100% agree

Tau firewarriors get similar effect by paying a couple of points, I do not think bolter/bolt pistol rerolls would have been too much. On the other hand that would have put UM way above the rest in C:SM.

Sorry what? Do you mean marker lights? Which have been in the Tau fluff from day 1, are there to help the fact they are a bs3 shooting army and require a different unit of models each more than a Firewarrior to get? Or do you mean an Ethereal granting 1 extra shot at half range as a bubble effect? Or a Fireblade granting an extra shot if you stay still to 1 unit. None of those are blanket rerolls to hit across the entire board with the backbone troops choice without having to use other FOC slots including HQs that limit its effect and can be killed to remove it. Where is the fluff that UM tac marines are better with their bolters than Chapter Masters of any other Chapter???

The fact is that only an idiot or someone that knew nothing about the game thought for a second that the UM CT was going to be blanket rerolls all the time. It was always going to be a bubble or limited use (or both). The fact it is board wide and 1 use is actually as good as it could possibly be. It also represents the fluff that UMs use tactics and efficiency to bring their guns to bare at the exact right time.

I love the smurfs and with the new product range coming I'm in 7th heaven - but, Macgragge Blue in spray form?...8th heaven

Finally GW started taking Army Painter seriously and realized, they had a really good idea with the color primer line.
I for one, after trying them both, love the Quickshade Inks (not the dips) over the GW Shades.

Just saw that close up of the bearded librarian. How badass is that? That's awesome.