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 Ed made an interesting statement about reserves, in the "Sisters in Escalation" thread over in the tactics forum.  To summarize: reserves may be moved on from any point of *any board edge* within your deployment zone.  ie in Recon, your tank may begin moving on from 15" up the side of the board, as that is a) a board edge; and b) in your deployment zone.  This works for Take & Hold, Secure & Control, and Seek & Destroy as well, but only 12" up the side.

Upon glancing at my book, the Reserves rule (p.84) refers us back to the Missions.  Each standard mission states:  "Reserves: When available, reserves move on from the player's deployment zone board edge." (p81, 82, 83)

I've never seen anyone move reserves on from anywhere but their long table edge, except in Cleanse with the table quarter deployment (where both edges of the zone are used).

So I have two questions (as usual):

Q1:   RAW, is Ed right?

P1: reserves move on from the player's deployment zone board edge
P2: In Recon, the point at 15"  up the side is both a board edge, and in the player's deployment zone.
C1: In Recon, reserves may move on from the point 15" up the side of the board.

....or is he mistaken:
P1: reserves move on from the player's deployment zone board edge
P2: The word 'edge' is singular; in the absence of a qualifier such as 'any', the word 'edge' denotes a single entity. That is, each deployment zone in non-Cleanse missions has 3 distinct board edges.
C2: Reserves may only move on from a single board edge in the player's deployment zone, in any mission.

Even by C2, I suppose there's nothing stopping anyone from choosing one of the 12"-15" edges of their zone from which to move on reserves, instead of their long board edge.  I can see the advantage for doing so, especially in Recon.
Also interesting: by C2, one would have to pick a single edge for moving on reserves even in Cleanse!

Now for the second, more relevent question.
DISCLAIMER: Although this second question is in YMTC, it is not a RAW question.   If you only read the rules, and never actually play anyone, then  please feel free to comment on Q1 and ignore Q2!

Q2: Do any players here actually play that one can move reserves on from the side edges of the board (still in their deployment zone of course) in non-Cleanse standard missions as well as in Cleanse?  That is, consistently follow C1 in practice?
Q2a) Does anyone play that one can only move reserves on only from the longer table edge in Cleanse as well as the other standard missions? That is, consistently follow C2 in practice?

My own (limited) experience is that people follow C2 for Cleanse, and C1 for all other standard missions.  Which seems inconsistent to me now that I've been Edlightened.

Q2b) Anyone ever tried/seen this in a tournament? How'd it go over?

Q2c) Is there some precedent in an earlier edition of the rules, which supports the inconsistent reserves behaviour I've observed (C2 for non-cleanse, C1 for Cleanse)?  Ie something akin to the statement in 3rd edition that you use the highest LD in the squad for the squad's LD tests, which is not stated in 4th edition, but which everyone uses anyways as it is an assumed oversight..

Here is the link to the thread where Ed's original posts are located (3rd and 5th post in the thread) http://www.dakkadakka.com/Default.aspx?tabid=93&forumid=18&postid=51541&view=topic

I didn't want to try to edit my original post, for fear of losing all my paragraphing...

I can't see why the short 6" board edge would be a problem for anyone - it's a board edge in your deployment zone. What?

"Which seems inconsistent to me now that I've been Edlightened."

That's sigworthy. You've been Edlightened.

Actually, four of the five missions state the following for deployment:

Both players roll a dice, the winner chooses which of the long table edges to deploy in.

His opponent gets the opposite deployment zone, so both forces start along opposite long board edges.

They then go on and tell you how far away from your long board edge and enemy units you can place models, However, I see nothing that changes the above statement.

Not sure I see your point Ghaz. That doesn't change the fact that the short board edge on the side is a board edge in your deployment zone, which is all the reserves rules require to allow you to come in.

It seems to be saying that you deploy in a long board edge, but you can place models up to X inches away from that long board edge depending on the scenario.

Therefore your 'deployment zone board edge' would be the long board edge.

That leap you're making isn't supported by the actual text.

I'm willing to hear the argument (as if it carries my marines get even stronger, haha!), but I don't think you're being precise enough with the wording.

Upon re-reading the missions, I have to agree with Ghaz. The explicit mention of the 'long board edge' and the fact that all deployment is measured relative to that edge, seems to me to rule out coming in from any other edge.

The corollary of this strict interpretation though, is that there are *no* board edges by which reserves may enter in Cleanse. It's deepstriking only, apparently...

Board edge and deployment zone are two different things.

P1: reserves move on from the player's deployment zone board edge
P2: The word 'edge' is singular; in the absence of a qualifier such as 'any', the word 'edge' denotes a single entity. That is, each deployment zone in non-Cleanse missions has 3 distinct board edges.
C2: Reserves may only move on from a single board edge in the player's deployment zone, in any mission.

Not to single out this argument or the person making it for any reason, but the language here can be adequately used to resolve the case.

P2 says that the deployment zone has 3 distinct board edges. That's not necessarily true. The deployment zone is an area, bound by the board edge and an imaginary line. That board edge comprises 3 sides of the zone, this is true, but that doesn't mean it should be considered 3 separate board edges. It's the board edge - as a singular entity, 'board edge', it defines 3 sides of the deployment zone area. Reserves don't have to come on from 'a board edge' in your deployment zone, they just come on from the 'deployment zone board edge'.

Consider an analogy. If the deployment zone were the edge of a rectangular island, and thus bound by land on one side, and water on 3, Reserves could thus be said to come on from 'the deployment zone shoreline'. Not a particular shoreline, but the 'shoreline' in general. Similarly, 'board edge' can be considered a singular entity, that happens to define 3 sides of an area. The fact that it makes up 3 sides doesn't mean it comprises 3 distinct entities.

"Deployment zone board edge" is simply not the same as "long table edge" and no rule I see is going to make them the same. And any argument that you can't come in from the side is going to be dependent on them being shown to be identical.

...arguments about shorelines not withstanding.

it would seem to me that the rules only define two sides of the table as actual "edges," and the other two sides are not considered "edges" in the RAW sense, simply the ends of the board.

The reserves state they can come on from a board edge in your deployment zone, and since the rules only define the long sides as actual "edges" you would only be able to move on from your (long) side. The two other (short) table sides are not defined as "edges" and as such they wouldn't qualify for reserves, regardless of the fact that your deployment zone incorporates a portion of them.

or something :-p

That's an interesting angle to take, but I think you're going to have a hard time convincing me that the edge of the board isn't a board edge.

But go for it.

So when units rout and take the most direct route to the board edge, do you angle towards the short board edge 15" (or whatever) from the long board edge?

That actually depends. The wording for the fallback rule is different than either of these.

The fallback rules say you fall back to the "player's table edge", which, while different, I interpret to be the "long table edge". It then goes on to make an exception that if you came on from a different point, you fall back to there (page 48). So if I come in from reserve on the side, that's where I fall back to.

So we have these terms used:

Before you deploy, you choose a "long table edge"

When you come in from reserve, you come from the "player's deployment zone board edge"

And when you fall back you fall to the "player's table edge".

Obviously none of these terms are consistent.

Hmmm...we seem to have stalled the RAW argument on those 3 inconsistent terms.

....so....anyone care to chime in on the Q2 parts?

To recap:

Q2: Do any players here actually play that one can move reserves on from the side edges of the board (still in their deployment zone of course) in non-Cleanse standard missions as well as in Cleanse? That is, consistently follow C1 in practice?
Q2a) Does anyone play that one can only move reserves on only from the longer table edge in Cleanse as well as the other standard missions? That is, consistently follow C2 in practice?

My own (limited) experience is that people follow C2 for Cleanse, and C1 for all other standard missions. Which seems inconsistent to me now that I've been Edlightened.

Q2b) Anyone ever tried/seen this in a tournament? How'd it go over?

Q2c) Is there some precedent in an earlier edition of the rules, which supports the inconsistent reserves behaviour I've observed (C2 for non-cleanse, C1 for Cleanse)? Ie something akin to the statement in 3rd edition that you use the highest LD in the squad for the squad's LD tests, which is not stated in 4th edition, but which everyone uses anyways as it is an assumed oversight..


My Q2c stems from the fact that I started playing 40k with 4th edition. Other than having glanced through the Rogue Trader book 18 years ago (when I was playing WHFB), I have no experience with other editions of 40k. Yet I find that many experienced players, who *are* familiar with 2nd and 3rd edition, use the rules from that as fallback positions when the 4th edition rules are inconsistent or incomplete (ie the squad leadership thing).

Here is a little feul for the fire.

What about deployment zones with only 2 edges, that don't have long board edges at all? like the big triangles or the 6 inch deep "L" shape missions with a 2 and 3 foot edge?

Which one is it then? Or is the long board edge just the longer of the 2 sides?

Im getting very confused now.

(But really, it's any board edge that defines a zone, this is silly.)

You never use the depth part of it as a deployment edge. Just the part that touches the table edge. Normal deployment is from the one edge and not the 12 inch side edge you are wanting to get.

Posted By CaptAnderton on 03/28/2006 6:52 AM
You never use the depth part of it as a deployment edge. Just the part that touches the table edge. Normal deployment is from the one edge and not the 12 inch side edge you are wanting to get.

Thank you for another unsupported conclusion that ignores every post above it at the end of a thread of intelligent discussion.

Go Anderton!

Your deployment zone is generally only ever defined by two things. Distance from your long board edge and distance from enemy models. The short board edges are never mentioned as defining your deployment zone. They only do so indirectly because you can't deploy models off of the table.

The 'deployment zone board edge' is indeed the same thing as the 'long board edge' because it is the only board edge used to define your deployment zone in four of the five missions. Only Cleanse missions would have two 'deployment zone board edges', and those would be the two that make up the edges of the table quarter you deployed in.

Ghaz, I would agree with you here except that the Cleanse mission description does not refer to having multiple deployment zone edges. It still uses the singular "edge".

Which supports the "shoreline" usage of edge, in which each player has one edge, but it does wrap around multiple sides of the board.

When playing Cleanse I am historically accustomed to having both sides of my zone count, both for reserves and for fallback- troops wll fallback towards the closest point on which they can leave the table, whether it's the longer or shorter side of my DZ edge.

Based on the RAW, it now appears to me that it should work the same way in all missions, which would be both consistent and elegant, albeit a little different than how I have seen it played in the past. It would also mean that slower units might not be QUITE as screwed in Reserves/Escalation missions, which seems to me another plus.

Ok I'll make this easy for you all. 6x4 tables.

Standard mission: 72 inches along the table edge.

Corners: 24 inches on the short side and 36 inches on the long.

Cleanse II: 54 inches on the long side and 30 inches on the short side.

These are all board edges and not deployement zones. HOW FREAKING HARD IS THAT!

The rules refer to each player's "deployment zone board edge".

Anderton, read everyone else's posts in this thread, and then go read the relevant sections of your rulebook. You are arguing your opinion without any basis in what the rules actually say.

You are trolling. By "Trolling" I mean "creating or prolonging a pointless argument by posting nonsense or deliberately ignoring valid arguments in favor of posting irrelevant and time-wasting contradictions."

If you keep trolling, I will delete your posts. If I get sufficiently tired of it, you will eventually be banned.