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Deadnight wrote:

Cyel wrote:
I definitely can't blame them for producing what sells for them ! I admire an efficient business even if their product is not for me.

And WM&H suffers from many of these problems, it's also quite old now. When they were advertising streamlining in mk3 I was hoping it would be the design policy from then on, but we all know what we ended up with

Totally fair!

Honestly, in my opinion pp's future is in warcaster nk, not warmachine/hordes. If you can find some fellows to buy into it with you, i think you'll get some decent gaming out of it.

Warmachine/hordes is just waiting for its end times.

I played warcaster for the first time last night. It is a damn good system. But ... it's rolling models out fast, we are not sure we will play it enough to warrant further investment.
I know we can, "do it our way" but it just feels bloaty already.

i watched the promo for warcaster and took a hard pass. i already play infinity and it is a much better system than WC for the same sort of setting.

I never got into WHFB or kings of war so WM/H is my fantasy/steam punk game.

Infinity is probably the most technically brilliant wargame out there. Best metals in the industry too imo.

And yet for all thst, the game is a struggle for me.

I much rather warcry or kill team.

^goes and hides^

Hey not everything is a must even for war gamers. i love the models for Star Wars legion and as a sci-fi nerd i love Star Wars, but absolutely hate the game mechanics and will never play it again.

 aphyon wrote:
Hey not everything is a must even for war gamers.

IMPOSSIBLE.

you must love the exact same things I do for the exact same reasons or you're a tfg who enjoys badwrongfun!

(Said no one, ever)

Deadnight wrote:

 aphyon wrote:
Hey not everything is a must even for war gamers.

IMPOSSIBLE.

you must love the exact same things I do for the exact same reasons or you're a tfg who enjoys badwrongfun!

(Said no one, ever)

Correction, you're only suppose to be playing 40K. If you played Warhammer Fantasy and GW destroys Fantasy while replacing it with AoS you're suppose to:

A.) Get angry and burn your WHFB army. (extra points if you make a video and post it on YouTube)

B.) Switch over to 40K while bashing GW. Because anger and logic don't mix.

I like Warmahordes, I really like the models. But Privateer Press as a company really need to get it together. If they didn't make such bizarre business decisions they would be doing OK.

 Shrapnelsmile wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

Cyel wrote:
I definitely can't blame them for producing what sells for them ! I admire an efficient business even if their product is not for me.

And WM&H suffers from many of these problems, it's also quite old now. When they were advertising streamlining in mk3 I was hoping it would be the design policy from then on, but we all know what we ended up with

Totally fair!

Honestly, in my opinion pp's future is in warcaster nk, not warmachine/hordes. If you can find some fellows to buy into it with you, i think you'll get some decent gaming out of it.

Warmachine/hordes is just waiting for its end times.

I played warcaster for the first time last night. It is a damn good system. But ... it's rolling models out fast, we are not sure we will play it enough to warrant further investment.
I know we can, "do it our way" but it just feels bloaty already.

I've heard many complaints about Warcaster but "rolling out models fast" has never been one of them lol. If anything most of the complaints have been in the opposite direction.

Deadnight wrote:
Infinity is probably the most technically brilliant wargame out there. Best metals in the industry too imo.
And yet for all thst, the game is a struggle for me.
I much rather warcry or kill team.
^goes and hides^

Biggest problem with warcasters minis is Infinity IMO. Warcaster is going for the same sort of aesthetic, but IMO Infinity does it better, whereas Warcaster just feels like a soulless, uninspired, and generic imitation purchased off of Wish.

Deadnight wrote:
Infinity is probably the most technically brilliant wargame out there. Best metals in the industry too imo.
And yet for all thst, the game is a struggle for me.
I much rather warcry or kill team.
^goes and hides^

Infinity has suffered for years from poor rules writing/editing making approaching and learning gameplay an incredibly difficult chore. That part might be better now, as I've heard the most recent edition has streamlined things and made it easier to follow. The other thing Infinity suffers from is extremely poor product lifecycle management, etc. I had to quit the game after having my factions repeatedly squatted/split up one too many times. Corvus Belli keeps expanding its product range only to discover that it can't support that many SKUs and that entire subfactions, etc. are not financially viable. All the faction splits/consolidations/squattings and associated resculpts/repackagings/discontinuations have become confusing to follow and keep track of for those of us who only played casually and didn't keep up with it the way we do with Warhammer. The lack of a proper community news portal ala warhammer community doesn't really help, you need to rely on keynotes at conventions, youtube videos, facebook posts, etc. to keep abreast of the changes and updates and comings and goings, etc. As a result, a large segment of the local commuinty sold out of the game and stopped playing as it demanded more mental overhead both on and off the table than it was worth. CB would definitely benefit from hiring an experience product line manager to do a better job of how all this is being handled and communicated.

Guys, just stop having wrongfun and we can all get back to having rightfun again.

FWIW, Warcaster and Infinity are wildly different games. Probably the thing they have most in common is that neither game really plays like anything else on the market. There's definitely some aesthetic crossover, but even that kind of faded seeing both models in person.

As for Warcaster releasing models too fast, I think it depends a bit on what you're playing. The game is in kind of a weird place right now where its skirmish level is probably more worth your time and the game has just enough to fill that up but not quite enough to make it feel like build choices matter. There's actually a slightly expanded game size that still plays skirmish that I think does a better job by giving you a little more room for niche picks that the game actually supports very well since there's no real value in spamming things.

Say, is Warcaster still a thing or did it flop?

Still a thing. The third Kickstarter's items(Elite Cadres I think they were called? Basically, Theme Forces in a box) should be hitting retail soon.

Its a flop in the sense that its getting no attention from the market and not getting much market penetration, but its not a flop in the sense that the game is actually mechanically solid and (dare I say) actually good.

I just opened one of their retailer emails. I have zero idea why I get them but whatever. In it they have promotions for free demo and prize kits for Monsterpocalypse, Warcaster, and Riot Quest.

Zero mention of WMH.

Veldrain wrote:
I just opened one of their retailer emails. I have zero idea why I get them but whatever. In it they have promotions for free demo and prize kits for Monsterpocalypse, Warcaster, and Riot Quest.

Zero mention of WMH.

Oof.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Its a flop in the sense that its getting no attention from the market and not getting much market penetration, but its not a flop in the sense that the game is actually mechanically solid and (dare I say) actually good.

Riotquest is similar. Rules are pretty good though I've always felt that's Privateer's strong point. I think RQ will be better received as a boardgame as WMH players are turned off by it as a mini game.

RiotQuest is remarkably better in practice than it looks on paper, but I cannot stand the spawn mechanics. The maps are just too big and models regularly get spawned in the middle of nowhere with no real ability to contribute to the game.

I'd say its frustrating, but the game is too random to really be frustrated by any of it. It's got far more depth than you'd expect and some really solid ideas behind it, but I think to really shine it needs significantly more work on its map layouts.

Warcaster is all around very strong. I think there's some balance concerns that likely need to be worked out, particularly regarding loadout options on Warjacks, but its a really strong system that mostly lacks options. My group got into it last summer and really liked it, but also found that after a couple months we'd kind of experienced what there was to see out of the current range. The Thousand Worlds release wave that should be out very soon was announced shortly after and everyone kind of felt like that was the boost in variety the game really needed and I expect it to pop up again once its available.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

Veldrain wrote:
I just opened one of their retailer emails. I have zero idea why I get them but whatever. In it they have promotions for free demo and prize kits for Monsterpocalypse, Warcaster, and Riot Quest.

Zero mention of WMH.

Oof.

To be fair, aside from orgoth it's been quiet on the 'older' factions front. I expect pp to try to push their 'one new wmh faction every year' as they promised a while back rather than expand the older factions by anything more than token gestures.

to be fair they really do not need to expand any of the current factions. if anything, they have to many choices.

I play khador i have access to

25 warcasters
20 warjacks
19 units
11 unit attachments
23 solos
3 battle engines

101 units to choose from in a game that roughly has less than 20-30 models in a normal game depending on points level.

That is also not counting all the mercenaries that can be added in to every faction.

Now repeat that across 15 factions for all of WM/H

I definitely think they could condense the older factions some. Some of the themes can be combined and some redundant options counting as resculpts of one another (Trencher Long Gunner, Sword/Precursor Knights, etc). I think most of the Warcasters that have 3 versions could be dropped to 2. Stuff like that.

I suspect the game is on the backburner while they decide just how to revamp it. More importantly than rules, I think it's a question of the product line itself. PVC didn't work out and they've clearly stopped ordering more, but the stocks of it appear to be dwindling and there's a need for replacements. The old SKUs aren't really viable in today's FOMO boxset market and they need to find a way to repackage the way things are sold into something more modern. From the interviews I've heard, it sounds like everyone is well aware of this, its just a question of how to get it done. From what I've heard in interviews, it sounds like there's a plan and I think Warcaster is definitely a testing ground, but I'd wager things get pushed back to when the post COVID market is a little more stable.

When it comes to WMH I would be more than happy with an just occasional model thrown out now and again. But what I really want is any sign that they are able to keep the rules going. They have a good campaign system with Oblivion to build on but no one to do the work. The rebalance was a good thing with the exception that now even Faye is gone. Any plan is only to last as long as the newest person to jump ship.

I remember playing Warmachine awhile back. Friend of mine brought it over and it was actually quite fun. I enjoyed the focus (?) system and the models looked neat, so he lent me his rulebook to check out. I got to page 5, if I remember correctly, and was immediately turned off by the presumptuous and smug dissertation of the desired game etiquette. Some rank BS about respecting the unassuming black t-shirt clad person across from me as being some sort of wargaming pro. Absolute rubbish. I don't need a toy company to preach to me about the delicacies of the social contract in a book about playing with toys.

That rule no longer exists in MKIII

IMHO i am glad it is gone as it has created an environment with those like minded players making the game incredibly toxic especially for new players.

When all you get is "bring your A game because we play tournament 75 point steamroller games at all times" is a huge turnoff.

i play with the minis i like and we have fun games especially at the 50 point level or even going off on a tangent without warcasters/warlocks or jacks/warbeasts and let the regular army units fight a pitched battle in what we like to call infantry machine.

 Hairesy wrote:
Some rank BS about respecting the unassuming black t-shirt clad person across from me as being some sort of wargaming pro. Absolute rubbish. I don't need a toy company to preach to me about the delicacies of the social contract in a book about playing with toys.

Mk1's page 5 was... ridiculously over the top. Very 90s. It was funny, bit you have to realize it was being bombastic to the point of satire.

Mk2's page 5 was something I quite enjoyed. Less over the top, still quite tongue-in-cheek. Boil out the bombast and what it says is Play hard, play fair, don't 'crutch', be a gracious winner and don't be a sore loser and always treat people with respect because We're all here for the same thing. I appreciated how they stated as an absolute that page 5 was never an excuse to be nasty to people. I always read 'bring your best game' as not necessarily bringing the meanest/toughest lists either.

And sadly, I do disagree with you somewhat. The social contract should be obvious. People should be nice to each other and avcomodating. You [generic 'you'] shouldn't need to be told these things
And yet sadly within the wargaming community there's no shortage of toxic players, elitists, cutthroats and bullies. I absolutely respect where you are coming from but imo, 'This is the social contract' is sadly necessary in my view. Its a shame that a lot of people read page 5 as 'shamelessly crush your opponents' and never actually read it to the end. And sadly they're the players that often gave wmh players such a toxic reputation and have such a significant presence in the remaining 'rump' community, since the vast majority/nearly all of more casual players have left or been driven away. :(

Could anyone PM a link to the WM/H Discords for the game in general and any CoC-specific Discords?

Trying to get back into it and get my CoC in working order.

I also don't think that half-baked twitter post crying about how Page-5 from MKI is problematic has helped, but it feels like it's beating a dead horse at this point.

PM sent.

Deadnight wrote:

 Hairesy wrote:
Some rank BS about respecting the unassuming black t-shirt clad person across from me as being some sort of wargaming pro. Absolute rubbish. I don't need a toy company to preach to me about the delicacies of the social contract in a book about playing with toys.

Mk1's page 5 was... ridiculously over the top. Very 90s. It was funny, bit you have to realize it was being bombastic to the point of satire.

Mk2's page 5 was something I quite enjoyed. Less over the top, still quite tongue-in-cheek. Boil out the bombast and what it says is Play hard, play fair, don't 'crutch', be a gracious winner and don't be a sore loser and always treat people with respect because We're all here for the same thing. I appreciated how they stated as an absolute that page 5 was never an excuse to be nasty to people. I always read 'bring your best game' as not necessarily bringing the meanest/toughest lists either.

And sadly, I do disagree with you somewhat. The social contract should be obvious. People should be nice to each other and avcomodating. You [generic 'you'] shouldn't need to be told these things
And yet sadly within the wargaming community there's no shortage of toxic players, elitists, cutthroats and bullies. I absolutely respect where you are coming from but imo, 'This is the social contract' is sadly necessary in my view. Its a shame that a lot of people read page 5 as 'shamelessly crush your opponents' and never actually read it to the end. And sadly they're the players that often gave wmh players such a toxic reputation and have such a significant presence in the remaining 'rump' community, since the vast majority/nearly all of more casual players have left or been driven away. :(

That is a valid point, the social contract should be obvious but we often play against new opponents and we cannot know their intent until we see it on display. One must hope that one is not caught in a two hour hell-match with an abhuman helot who wants to rules-lawyer every bit of minutiae just to squeeze out a win. That being said though, I'm under no obligation to actually be nice to such people, or to continue the game. There is a Robert E. Howard quote about a civilized man being more rude than a savage that comes to mind! I recall asking my friend about page 5 and he very sheepishly said to ignore that bit and I had to wonder, did no one in development consider the deleterious effect of said attitude? Even if it was meant to be bombastic and a bit satirical, I found myself wondering what sort of people these writers had played against and why. They had written a pretty tight ruleset (to my limited experience of it) and so the satire seemed lost. Now, if there had been some less than serious moments or even some not so serious characters perhaps the comedic value of page 5 would have shone through more but Warmachine seemed very serious and that just made the nature of page 5 seem as serious as the rest of it. Ah, oh well. It was fun pushing Warjacks around with the casters and spending tokens, I wouldn't mind playing again but my hobby interests have shrunk both in terms of my involvement and monetary support. I might be interested in some models now and then but there is simply too many other things I'm interested in for me to seriously consider WMH as worthy of the storage space or my time. I won't write the game off entirely, but at that point in time page 5 was simply a dealbreaker for me and I hope that in the future PP takes that into consideration, I know I'm not the only one who thought well ignore that bit and get on with it.

They do make great paints though!

You'll note that you are quoting a post that points out that PP took that into consideration when they made Mk2 in 2010, 12 years ago

The legacy of page 5 still haunts WMH though. They should have known that the people who needed the message were the same people who would interpret that message as something quite different.

Nothing to be done about it at this point though. If people keep insisting its a problem going on a decade when PP last acknowledged its existence.... I mean I guess we can wait for it to die out of living memory but I swear people are determined to teach that grudge to their children, and their children's children. We're all embarrassed by things said during the Daikatana era of marketing, but the unwillingness to accept that its just not a thing anymore after its been pointed out multiple times is just kind of looking for an axe to grind.

 Hairesy wrote:


That is a valid point, the social contract should be obvious but we often play against new opponents and we cannot know their intent until we see it on display. One must hope that one is not caught in a two hour hell-match with an abhuman helot who wants to rules-lawyer every bit of minutiae just to squeeze out a win.

We are more aligned than you realise. I will point out those hearts yoy mention are in every game, trying to eke out every advantage they can.

 Hairesy wrote:

That being said though, I'm under no obligation to actually be nice to such people, or to continue the game.

Or to play against them. We teach our daughters its OK to say 'no'. Gaming is the same. I'd rather not play than waste a few hours of my time playing a rubbish game against warjackass. Greatest gaming lesson lesson I learned is I don't owe those people anything, least of all my time.

 Hairesy wrote:

I recall asking my friend about page 5 and he very sheepishly said to ignore that bit and I had to wonder, did no one in development consider the deleterious effect of said attitude? Even if it was meant to be bombastic and a bit satirical, I found myself wondering what sort of people these writers had played against and why. They had written a pretty tight ruleset (to my limited experience of it) and so the satire seemed lost. Now, if there had been some less than serious moments or even some not so serious characters perhaps the comedic value of page 5 would have shone through more but Warmachine seemed very serious and that just made the nature of page 5 seem as serious as the rest of it. Ah, oh well.

To be fair, asshats are gonna asshat, regardless of whether developers do page 5, plead with you to play nice or say nothing at all. I think developers make the rules they want to make ans then go home to the rest of their lives. What people do with those rules, to a large extent is beyond their control. And unless you implement some kind of oppressive social or mind control on your player base, you won't get this.
In my experience msybe 'satire' is the wrong g word. wmh was very American and very 'sports'. Large and loud and over the top, like an iron fang shoulder plate. Jacks are based on hunched over American footballers and a lot of the tempo is drawn from sports. Who you hear the bombast you take it for what it is. Banter. Sports 101. To a large extent its not 'real' or most of us will be guilty for inciting violence when we talk about murdering the other team or what have you.

And for what it's worth there's plenty not serious moments in the game or have you never seen all the penile references or obviously ridiculous characters like lord carver, who is literally conan rhe boar-barian. Farrow on the whole are hilariously silly. They even have a special rule called 'bacon'.

 Hairesy wrote:


It was fun pushing Warjacks around with the casters and spending tokens, I wouldn't mind playing again but my hobby interests have shrunk both in terms of my involvement and monetary support. I might be interested in some models now and then but there is simply too many other things I'm interested in for me to seriously consider WMH as worthy of the storage space or my time. I won't write the game off entirely, but at that point in time page 5 was simply a dealbreaker for me and I hope that in the future PP takes that into consideration, I know I'm not the only one who thought well ignore that bit and get on with it.

They do make great paints though!

Agreed on rhe paints. I love p3. Its the main line of paints that I've used for ten years now. Traitor green and greatcoat grey are two of the greatest colours ever.

In terms of the game there was a time I loved it and thought it was the greatest game ever. I still have a lot of nostalgia for it. My tastes have moved on in terms of games but I've kept most of my khador models and my houseguard elves that I'm hoping to use for 'other' projects. And while I've seen very few 'new' models yhat I like, I still keep an eye out for the classic metals in case I find something cool.

 LunarSol wrote:
Nothing to be done about it at this point though. If people keep insisting its a problem going on a decade when PP last acknowledged its existence.... I mean I guess we can wait for it to die out of living memory but I swear people are determined to teach that grudge to their children, and their children's children. We're all embarrassed by things said during the Daikatana era of marketing, but the unwillingness to accept that its just not a thing anymore after its been pointed out multiple times is just kind of looking for an axe to grind.

Acceptance is not trying to run away from the matter by labeling anyone who mentions it as having an axe to grind.