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So if someone else wants to start a legitimate thread for this be my guest, but I haven't seen anything up yet so I thought I would at least get the ball rolling on Tactics for our Index.

Overall I think we did pretty okay now that points are out and for the most part it seems like we have either remained about as cheap as we were or even come down on a few key units (Exorcist, Vahl, Celestine, and a few minor point drops on units like Dominions and Sacresants). There is definitely a lack of effective anti-tank in the Index rules short of the S12 Paragon Maces and S14 Hunter Killer Missiles (and those options really are not great for us for plenty of reasons, especially the AP -1 on the Maces). Other than that its mostly S10 AP -2 in the Exorcist and S10 AP -1 in the Castigator. I definitely think we as a a faction are going to struggle with cracking hard targets, especially anything T11+ and the shorter range on Multi-Meltas is going to hurt. I have seen plenty of first impressions so far from various social media groups and it looks like dealing with anything beyond T10 is a struggle unless you are making use of the Dialogus+Retributor+Triumph combo for infinite Acts of Faith with all of them being changed to 6s for wounds and damage on Multi-Meltas. I have also heard that the ability to "combat squad" units in Immolators like Dominions is relatively powerful/useful.

Obviously we will need a bunch of playtesting as a community before coming to any real conclusions, and I am hoping to get a small game in relatively soon to see exactly how we are going to play going forward, but what are our thoughts so far in general? There is no doubt we are going to play MUCH differently now at least when compared to the age of Bloody Rose dominance, but I think we are just going to shift more toward playing the mission well constantly instead of actually causing major damage and trying to all but table the opponent. I am hoping to get some data soon though, as I am going to try some Rets with Heavy Bolters or even Ministorum Heavy Flamers again to see how that does for us. I will mainly be using melta on Warsuits with Vahl for those sweet full rerolls along with Melta Dominions backed up by a Palatine perhaps to give them lethal hits on their meltas so they can punch up against T10+ targets a bit. I also want to try a Canoness with Sacresants and then swap the Palatine and Canoness to see how they do leading Sacresants and Dominions, respectively. I know at first glance it doesn't look great for us so far, especially if it becomes a vehicle heavy meta, but I think with enough testing we will start to settle on builds that are interesting to play and are effective at a few different things while still having the Dialogus+Retributor+Triumph combo to fall back on if necessary. Granted, I have neither a Triumph or Dialogus so I will be trying to avoid that combo for the foreseeable future and just try and play with my collection.

I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts!

I'm for sure looking forward to try out our index. Looks like it has plenty of interesting things to play around with. My biggest gripes is the inferno pistol being nerfed while it wasn't strong to begin with and the canoness only able to lead regular battle sisters and sacresants. Can't put her with those dominions for whatever reason...

Us3Less wrote:
I'm for sure looking forward to try out our index. Looks like it has plenty of interesting things to play around with. My biggest gripes is the inferno pistol being nerfed while it wasn't strong to begin with and the canoness only able to lead regular battle sisters and sacresants. Can't put her with those dominions for whatever reason...

She ruins Dom's anyway

I do know I'm gonna have to do some work to make my collection viable for the new edition. I built my Sisters with 5-girl squads in mind, and now I have to take 10 (except Retributors obviously). I've got 50 Battle Sisters/Dominions, but won't be able to run more than 4 squads at most, probably only 3 because I have too many special/heavy weapon models. Plus I only have 2 Simulacrum models, so I'll either have to buy another box or modify my existing models.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I built my Sisters with 5-girl squads in mind, and now I have to take 10 (except Retributors obviously).

Not sure if this is gonna help, but you can still field 5 girl squads if you attach them to Immolators.

 BertBert wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I built my Sisters with 5-girl squads in mind, and now I have to take 10 (except Retributors obviously).

Not sure if this is gonna help, but you can still field 5 girl squads if you attach them to Immolators.

1: I don't own any Immolators (well, I have one older Sororitas Rhino that I built to be swappable to an Immolator)
2: You still need the full 10 girls even if you don't run them together

Yea my collection, despite being about 150 infantry Sisters strong, now feels "small" since I only have around 30 bolter Sisters. I have dozens of special/heavy weapons and superiors but the basic Sisters I have were always meant to be 6 squads of 5 girls instead of 10 woman units. It is definitely something that I am going to have to address but I am hoping to only use about 2 squads of BSS mostly anyway so I am hoping between using special and heavy weapons it all works out even if I end up running 3 squads. The more annoying part of this for me is actually the Dominions. I wish they could be taken in 5-10 again, it just feels so weird to HAVE to bring 5 bolter girls. I know Immolators help but it is still a bit rough for list building.

I should have a game against Necrons tomorrow so I will see just how tough the new Reanimation is with d3/d6/d3+3 wounds coming back against me each turn. I am planning on bringing mostly melta with maybe a few Heavy Bolters just to help against any Warrior bricks the guy brings. Granted I think most of his units are Destroyers, Skorpekhs and Immortals so melta is probably still the answer against those. I am planning on bringing an Exorcist and an Immolator or two as well just to try them out and see how tough T10 really feels. With only 2 shots for the Immolator now I think the Flamers are the way to go most of the time since S6 seems like a nice sweet spot against most of the T4 and T5 infantry in the game. Especially since plenty of infantry went up to T5 from T4. I will let you know my findings as I start playtesting!

Index is bad and should feel bad.

The worst part is that it feels like it was made bad VERY CAREFULLY.

Like, they assigned the new dev, for his first index, to do Sisters. And they were like, 'Okay, so this edition is much less lethal and slower and will have less rules and crazy interactions. That's what we're going for. So be very careful with the way you write things.'

So the New Guy took the index and very carefully built it so that no unitended interactions could peak through. No multiple miracle dice without a special character, no using 2 dice to guarantee a charge, no devastating wounds except in melee with a really bad special character, Oops, can't let an infantry unit have a 2+ save, that could be really strong! Oh, but I don't want them to have rerolls AND a 2+ AND a 4++ either, so I'll limit what character attach. And he very meticulously went through the army exactly how his boss described it.

Then when he went to turn it in, he found the guy writing marines smoking a joint going 'what if...Desolation Squads...had 420 shots, for 69 damage. Bro, that would be sooo lit bro. That'd be like...totally based bro...'

Meanwhile the guy writing eldar was doing cocaine off of 3 strippers arses screaming 'feth it, 20 fething dice, let's go!!!! 200 MORTAL WOUNDS PER TURN! WRAITHKNIGHT FOR A NICKLE! And then he punched his head through the dry wall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did find one incredibly impractical, bad, and stupid wombo combo though, so that's fun.

Triumph
Hospitaller
BSS

3x10 Dominions with 4 Stormbolters Each
3x Palatine for Lethal Hits.

In the Triumphs Aura, at 12 inches, those 3 squads shoot 132 shots with Lethal Wounds, which is 22 auto wounds (which goes up to a hilarious FORTY if exactly one model from each squad is dead.).

Even then, it's terrible and only kills 13ish marines on average for almost 800pts. But it is VERY funny.

I also tried to figure out some combos or strategies. Here's what i've figured out so far:

"The Damage Sponge":
1 Triumph of St.Katherine leads
1 BattleSistersSquad (Simulacrum, Cherub, CondemnorBoltgun,2StormBolter) to benefit from RapidFire +1A. Place on middle objective to spawn Miracle Dice and threaten with 31 Boltershots in 12" radius.
Add 1 Hospitaller nearby to heal the Triumph.

"The Horde Killer"
10 Arco-Flagellants with 1 Preacher, with the "trigger-word" that's 60 A, hitroll of 6 does add. hit, S5, +1to wound, reroll wound rolls, AP0, D1. Maybe put in reserves or a transporter to make sure, they survive until they hit the chaff infantery blob.

"The Canopener-Battlebots"
1 Morvenn Vahl with 3 Paragon Warsuits with three Multi-Meltas, Grenade Launchers and War Blades. Just walk straight forward right into the pit and fire out of all holes. Take any chance to double fire, e.g. with "Fire Overwatch" the full rerolls come in handy. Charge with "Tank Shock" stratagem for mortal wounds. If engaged in combat, then Fall Back and Shoot and Charge again.

"The OC-Doubling Scouts"
1 Palatine leads 1 Dominion-Squad (Cherub, Simulacrum, Boltgun/Chainsword, 4 Stormbolters). Put that unit in an Immolator with Immolation-Flamers.
Split the unit into Palatine/Simulacrum/4 Stormbolters embarked in Immolator. Prioris with 4 Boltguns securing one objective in the backfield.So you have two units with each OC2 plus the Palatine in the frontfield adding OC1. Deploy in the frontfield, scout move 6" before the game, Turn 1 advance towards the objective in nomans's-land. Turn 2 disembark the unit, move+advance (reroll advance) the unit, move the Immolator next to the unit. Shoot Immolator first with autohits on 18", then shoot assault stormbolters from the unit on rapidfire-range with lethal hits/hitroll of 6=autowound and reroll woundrolls (from fire supporting Immo). When engaged in combat, fall back into the Immolator and drive away to the next objective.

"The Fire & Forget Auto-Eraser"
1 Retributors unit with four MultiMeltas, two Cherubs, CombiWeapon/PowerWeapon, lead by 1 Sister Dialogus
put in strategic reserves. Turn 3 deploy from any table-edge in 9"/18" range to the BigBug, use your MiracleDice-Pool and two Cherubs, turning one Miracle-Dice (e.g. damage-roll) into an auto-6 with the Dialogus. When the enemy shoots back, first kill the Prioris and then use the "Rejoice the Fallen" Stratagem, while counting as being "stationary" (i guess that's how it works), hitting on 3+, rerolling hitrolls of 1 for being under starting strength, maybe use another MiracleDice that is an auto-6. If anything left is engaging your Retributors, in the charge phase you can "Fire Overwatch" and use another auto-6 from your MiracleDice-Pool/Cherubs. Always Rerolling Woundrolls of 1.

"The Anti-Heavy-Infantry-Partybus"
1 maxed out Repentia-Unit with the Superior, one unit of 2 Death-Cult Assassins, all together driving in a Rhino with Hunter-Killer-Missile. Just drive the Partybus right into the heavy armoured infantry blob. *transmission error* Let them try to open your Rhino while using "Smokescreen", then disembark, charge with the Assassins and the Repentia. Assassins Fight First, trying to take out the leading character for possible debuffs, then the Repentia fight with rerolling hits and rerolling wounds. If any of your models survive the slapback, then crawl back into the Rhino.

Update: i call this one "The Force of Negation" (in reference to the MtG Card):
1 St.Celestine with her two Geminae are leading a unit of 10 Zephyrim (with PlasmaPistol/PowerWeapon/Banner) and are deployed in Deep Strike. Use Junith Eruita and Inquisitor Coteaz to farm CP.
Use a cheap unit as a sacrifice lamb, run right into the pit and challenge the enemys strongest unit and sneak your enemy into the trap. Then on your enemy's Turn2 end of movement phase, use "Rapid Ingress" for 1CP, to bring St.Celestine and her unit down on the battlefield right next to where the lamb awaits the enemy. Then when the lamb is being charged, use "Heroic Intervention" (2CP) on St.Celestine and the Zephyrims to make a 6" charge into engagement range, so the Zephyrim get +1S and reroll the charge roll. Then activate the "Suffering&Sacrifice" stratagem (1CP) to redirect all the attacks to the Zephyrim and add the "Spirit of the martyr" stratagem to fight on death with the Zephyrim. If you have the 7th CP in your pool you can add the "Holy Rage" stratagem to gain +1 to wound.

"The first wave"
10 Novitiates (Superior with BoltPistol/PowerWeapon; 1Novitiate with Sacred Banner and CC Weapon/Autopistol; 1Novitiate with Simulacrum Imperialis and CC Weapon/Autopistol; 7 Novitiates with MeleeWeapons/Autopistol) are lead by 1 Missionary with PowerWeapon/HolyPistol. So they can reroll advance & charge-rolls,all together have 21 attacks, when near an objective reroll hitrolls, and hitrolls of 6 make an add. hit.

And here's my last one for now: "The Celestian Deathstar"
Use 1 Canoness with PlasmaPistol/PowerWeapon/Rod of Office, enhance her with the BladeOfSaintEllynor and let her lead a unit of 10 CelestianSacresants (Superior with PlasmaPistol/SpearOfTheFaithful; nine Sacresants with anointed halberds). Let them ride in a Rhino right to where the action is. In melee that's 21A from the Sacresants plus 5A from the Canoness each with S5/AP-2, rerolling the hitrolls, add the "Holy Rage" stratagem for 1CP (which you get back on a 4+) to gain +1 to wound, while the unit is -1 to wound (Sworn Protectors) with a 3+ save, and a 4+ invuln.

Azrael-Malecant wrote:
Use the "Tank-Shock" Stratagem with your HKM, thats 16x 5+for mortal wounds (to a max of 6).

This part doesn't work. Tank Shock only uses the strength of a melee weapon. That said, if you give one of your paragon warsuits, a mace, they get to tank shock with 12 dice, and 14 against anything T11 and lower. Average Mortals from this is just over 4. Warsuits also get to fall back then charge again, so they can recycle this stratagem every turn.

Also, the auto-wound on 6s that the Palatine gives Stormbolter Dominions is less impressive than I want it to be. In rapid fire range, you get 16 shots. That's somewhere between two and three auto wounds on an AP0 gun. Even if you don't split the squad with an Immolator, you still don't really get all that many attacks, and again, AP0.

The thing that bugs me about the index is that a lot of units have basically worthless melee buffs. It's like they're trying to blend in the flavor of some Bloody Rose in with the heavy Martyred Lady main dish. And the limitations of what leaders can go where means that you've often got bizarre additions to units that don't benefit from the thing that the leader is supposed to be good at.

While I appreciate the work Azreal, it is VERY funny to see the phrase 'bolter shots' and 'threaten' in the same sentence.

Azrael-Malecant wrote:
I also tried to figure out some combos or strategies. Here's what i've figured out so far:

"The Damage Sponge":
1 Triumph of St.Katherine leads
1 BattleSistersSquad (Simulacrum, Cherub, CondemnorBoltgun,2StormBolter) to benefit from RapidFire +1A. Place on middle objective to spawn Miracle Dice and threaten with 31 Boltershots in 12" radius.
Add 1 Hospitaller nearby to heal the Triumph.

"The Horde Killer"
10 Arco-Flagellants with 1 Preacher, with the "trigger-word" that's 60 A, hitroll of 6 does add. hit, S5, +1to wound, reroll wound rolls, AP0, D1. Maybe put in reserves or a transporter to make sure, they survive until they hit the chaff infantery blob.

"The Canopener-Battlebots"
1 Morvenn Vahl with 3 Paragon Warsuits with three Multi-Meltas, Grenade Launchers and War Blades. Just walk straight forward right into the pit and fire out of all holes. Take any chance to double fire, e.g. with "Fire Overwatch" the full rerolls come in handy. Charge with "Tank Shock" stratagem for mortal wounds. If engaged in combat, then Fall Back and Shoot and Charge again.

"The OC-Doubling Scouts"
1 Palatine leads 1 Dominion-Squad (Cherub, Simulacrum, Boltgun/Chainsword, 4 Stormbolters). Put that unit in an Immolator with Immolation-Flamers.
Split the unit into Palatine/Simulacrum/4 Stormbolters embarked in Immolator. Prioris with 4 Boltguns securing one objective in the backfield.So you have two units with each OC2 plus the Palatine in the frontfield adding OC1. Deploy in the frontfield, scout move 6" before the game, Turn 1 advance towards the objective in nomans's-land. Turn 2 disembark the unit, move+advance (reroll advance) the unit, move the Immolator next to the unit. Shoot Immolator first with autohits on 18", then shoot assault stormbolters from the unit on rapidfire-range with lethal hits/hitroll of 6=autowound and reroll woundrolls (from fire supporting Immo). When engaged in combat, fall back into the Immolator and drive away to the next objective.

"The Fire & Forget Auto-Eraser"
1 Retributors unit with four MultiMeltas, two Cherubs, CombiWeapon/PowerWeapon, lead by 1 Sister Dialogus
put in strategic reserves. Turn 3 deploy from any table-edge in 9"/18" range to the BigBug, use your MiracleDice-Pool and two Cherubs, turning one Miracle-Dice (e.g. damage-roll) into an auto-6 with the Dialogus. When the enemy shoots back, first kill the Prioris and then use the "Rejoice the Fallen" Stratagem, while counting as being "stationary" (i guess that's how it works), hitting on 3+, rerolling hitrolls of 1 for being under starting strength, maybe use another MiracleDice that is an auto-6. If anything left is engaging your Retributors, in the charge phase you can "Fire Overwatch" and use another auto-6 from your MiracleDice-Pool/Cherubs. Always Rerolling Woundrolls of 1.

"The Anti-Heavy-Infantry-Partybus"
1 maxed out Repentia-Unit with the Superior, one unit of 2 Death-Cult Assassins, all together driving in a Rhino with Hunter-Killer-Missile. Just drive the Partybus right into the heavy armoured infantry blob. *transmission error* Let them try to open your Rhino while using "Smokescreen", then disembark, charge with the Assassins and the Repentia. Assassins Fight First, trying to take out the leading character for possible debuffs, then the Repentia fight with rerolling hits and rerolling wounds. If any of your models survive the slapback, then crawl back into the Rhino.

Update: i call this one "The Force of Negation" (in reference to the MtG Card):
1 St.Celestine with her two Geminae are leading a unit of 10 Zephyrim (with PlasmaPistol/PowerWeapon/Banner) and are deployed in Deep Strike. Use Junith Eruita and Inquisitor Coteaz to farm CP.
Use a cheap unit as a sacrifice lamb, run right into the pit and challenge the enemys strongest unit and sneak your enemy into the trap. Then on your enemy's Turn2 end of movement phase, use "Rapid Ingress" for 1CP, to bring St.Celestine and her unit down on the battlefield right next to where the lamb awaits the enemy. Then when the lamb is being charged, use "Heroic Intervention" (2CP) on St.Celestine and the Zephyrims to make a 6" charge into engagement range, so the Zephyrim get +1S and reroll the charge roll. Then activate the "Suffering&Sacrifice" stratagem (1CP) to redirect all the attacks to the Zephyrim and add the "Spirit of the martyr" stratagem to fight on death with the Zephyrim. If you have the 7th CP in your pool you can add the "Holy Rage" stratagem to gain +1 to wound.

"The first wave"
10 Novitiates (Superior with BoltPistol/PowerWeapon; 1Novitiate with Sacred Banner and CC Weapon/Autopistol; 1Novitiate with Simulacrum Imperialis and CC Weapon/Autopistol; 7 Novitiates with MeleeWeapons/Autopistol) are lead by 1 Missionary with PowerWeapon/HolyPistol. So they can reroll advance & charge-rolls,all together have 21 attacks, when near an objective reroll hitrolls, and hitrolls of 6 make an add. hit.

And here's my last one for now: "The Celestian Deathstar"
Use 1 Canoness with PlasmaPistol/PowerWeapon/Rod of Office, enhance her with the BladeOfSaintEllynor and let her lead a unit of 10 CelestianSacresants (Superior with PlasmaPistol/SpearOfTheFaithful; nine Sacresants with anointed halberds). Let them ride in a Rhino right to where the action is. In melee that's 21A from the Sacresants plus 5A from the Canoness each with S5/AP-2, rerolling the hitrolls, add the "Holy Rage" stratagem for 1CP (which you get back on a 4+) to gain +1 to wound, while the unit is -1 to wound (Sworn Protectors) with a 3+ save, and a 4+ invuln.

I am liking some of these combos, especially the Canoness with the Sacresants and the Rets with a Dialogus (I really do not want to get the Triumph but I would not mind getting a Dialogus or even kitbashing one as long as I can play around with some of the head options and make her a little less "over the top").

In other news I had my first game of 10th against Necrons today. Overall both armies were probably suboptimal. He did bring a brick of 20 warriors and 10 Lychguard that I really could not put down despite using about half my army to do so. it was only 1500 points so we couldn't bring every toy, but it was an interesting game that helped me at least learn a few things. I will caveat everything I say here with the usual "this is only one game" and honestly most of my dice rolls in this particular for both Miracle Dice and everything else felt below average until around the end of Turn 4 when it seemed too late to really affect anything (out of the 10-15 MD I had throughout the game at least half of them were 1s, about 7 or 8, and even recycling them with cherubs only got me 2s usually or just more rerolled 1s, so it was rough). Here are some of the biggest takeaways about the army from this first brush:

1. Exorcists are definitely usable and serve a really nice role. I only brought one today but I honestly think at least 2 of them are going to be somewhat necessary in most lists. The ability to just sit back and at least put most things on a 4+ or 5+ save is pretty nice. D6+2 still feels a little bad when you roll that 1 or 2 but even 4 shots can reliably knock something meaty out. In this game it did decent work against Heavy Destroyers and the standard ones too and would have put more hurt on the Lychguard if they did not make about 95% of their 4++ saves over the course of 2 turns. I will not sit here and say they are great or auto-includes but they serve a role even with only 36" range. S10 feels nice against most things even though there was nothing over T9 on the other side of the table today, so it is tough to say how we will fare against T10+ units.

2. Vahl+ Warsuits were MVPs for most of the game even when Vahl whiffed 4/8 of her strikes at a crucial time (four 1s rerolled into four 1s). They annihilated some Skorpekhs, took out a Doomstalker, and just cleared certain objectives I needed toward the end of the game all while tanking some dedicated anti-tank fire with those clutch 4++ saves. The 4++ on the Warsuits especially feels really nice though it is sad that D2 weapons with decent AP just go right through them most of the time. I lost 2 Suits to some basic Destroyers even while they were in cover. The -1 damage being gone hurts. But still, I honestly think most lists are going to want Vahl and a unit of Suits. Again, they are not great but they are definitely good for 375 points.

3. Repentia still hit hard but without the ability to negate invulns they will bounce sometimes. Again the guy I played was making just about every 4++ I put him on so while they did well against his heavy infantry without invulns the harder targets just survived full rerolls to hit and wound, wounding on 2s from the stratagem. They aren't bad at all, and still are melee monsters against the right targets, but they feel less general purpose than before.

4. +1 to hit is incredibly easy to get from the detachment rule and definitely nice just for negating those pesky hit modifiers from some armies but +1 to wound is underwhelming more often than not. By the time we get it (other than on vehicles or maybe some characters like Vahl/Celestine) most units are just too depleted to make use of it effectively. There is just so much RNG to that part of the ability, and honestly it feels like Magikarp Flail strats from Pokemon (bring the Magikarp into super low health without it dying so that way the Flail can one shot everything) but the issue is by the time you are getting +1 to wound you only have a few models left to make use of it. I am sure there will be times, such as on vehicles or special characters, where it feels great, but in this game it just did not come up enough at all.

5. 18" for Multi Meltas is short. I actually brought a bunch of Heavy Bolters everywhere today just to test the exploding 6s and see how good they are now. They still aren't the answer I think, so I will probably try MMs on Rets again in the next few games, but I think it will be necessary to put those Rets in Strat Reserve now every single game. I had about 5 or 6 MMs in total today and other than all the suits everything else just felt too far away to effectively use them on my opponents army.

6. Combi Weapons are actually really nice for those random mortals to plink wounds off a squad. Obviously against Necrons it doesn't mean much, along with other armies that can regenerate models like GSC, but I think in most matchups you should be taking combis on every superior. Those extra mortals added up throughout the game against his smaller squads like Immortals. They can possibly make a difference here or there.

These are some of the biggest things I found in this game. There were plenty of other things that I wanted to test but just couldn't or when I tried it just completely bounced. My Melta Dominions with a Canoness in an Immolator bounced despite full rerolls to hit and wound because he made 75% of his 4++ (it was just a theme of this game) so I only got one through for a little damage (remember all my MD were 1 or 2 at this point). Divine Intervention with the cheeky 2++ from the Canoness is actually really interesting, she was annoying for him to put down and tied up a unit or two for a few turns, so that was cool. The Palatine and Sacresants pretty much became DOA as their transport went down Turn 2 from a lucky S14 Damage 6 Heavy Destroyer shot and I ended up rolling four 1s dealing 4 mortal wounds to the squad and then they got wiped by Lychguard. The combat squad system of Dominions and BSS in an Immolator definitely has its uses but in this game just too much went wrong to really see the potential manifested

All in all, it was a good first game to at least understand what the army sort of wants to do, though I think my synergies are a bit off from this first game. The Litanies Enhancement also barely did anything for me (though when I did get to use it I just rerolled 1s into 1s anyway) since the character that had it on them died almost instantly. If you are bringing it that should definitely be on something sitting in the backfield with a BSS or something. We played the core book mission which we know isn't even remotely balanced so I lost narrowly on points in the end but then thanks to the battle ready bonus I ended up technically winning since half the Necrons were gray lol. By the end of Turn 5 I still had a damaged Immolator, damaged Vahl, undamaged Exorcist, a few Rets, and a single Dominion compared to about 8 or 9 Lychguard and about 12 Warriors along with the Crypteks and Overlord as well as a few standard Destroyers. Obviously I was not winning on the table much either, but it was interesting to see so much (relative to 9th) of both armies still intact, though most of my points left were in Vehicles of course. There is still so much testing to do but while this Index isn't "good" I don't think its truly "bad" either. We are probably a slightly below average army unless we use the crazy combos like Triumph+ Dialogus to turn a bunch of MD that are 1 or 2 into 6s. Against armies with mostly T10+ I think we will struggle (Imperial and Chaos Knights, maybe Guard because of the T11 Russes and other tanks) but against T9 and below we still hit pretty hard. its not the same amount of damage we are used to but thats sort of the MO of this edition. There is still plenty of lethality in the game, but I think we can survive and play the objective game better than you would think, and I think Indirect Fire will not be as punishing to us as first believed, especially now that we have some sort of answer to it in the Exorcist.

Anyway, just my thoughts on where we are. Plenty more games to play but 10th at this point at least feels a bit less taxing than 9th. The worst part is all the subtle changes in the core rules that make me have to think of course, but that will get better.

Additionally, we ran into a few things that maybe the Rules Commentary discusses but that did not seem apparent from the core rules at least. One of them was about characters and their abilities while leading a unit. I know that once the unit is destroyed they just become a separate unit again and technically are not "leading a unit" anymore so for example Vahl would not get her full rerolls if she is by herself, but in the leader rules on I believe page 56 of the core rules it says something about the character is considered to be leading a unit for the rest of the battle, so we were a bit confused by that. I think the intent is for them to not get those abilities after the unit is destroyed, but it felt a little unclear. I know in some sections of the datasheet rules it seems to confirm the leader just becomes a separate unit again after the bodyguard unit is destroyed but does the fact they are considered leading a unit until the end of the battle override that somehow? Again, I think its intended to be that someone like Vahl doesnt get rerolls after the unit of Suits is gone, but it just seemed a bit confusing in the moment. Also certain unit abilities like the cherubs affecting both units of combat squad BSS or Dominions, that also seems a little unclear but since its a unit ability it feels like it should affect both units of 5. Just things that I do not think got addressed in the rules commentary, but I will look again.

Sorry for this became so long, but hope this helps give us some food for thought at least.

The 'leading a unit until the end of the battle' thing is part of the rules that A. Don't let your character leave the unit, and B. Don't let your character join a new unit.

It's not relevant for anything else.

Thanks a ton for that insight GFdoubles, it's awesome and super appreciated.

One question I had was regarding this part:

"18" for Multi Meltas is short. I actually brought a bunch of Heavy Bolters everywhere today just to test the exploding 6s and see how good they are now. They still aren't the answer I think, so I will probably try MMs on Rets again in the next few games"

Forgive me, as I'm probably missing something obvious here, but what was the question you were trying to answer? These weapons aren't intended to be used on the same targets, so was the question whether Rets would be best brought as anti-horde, or as their traditional anti-heavy role?

Thanks again!

Here's a list idea I had, it's called 'FEED ME SEYMOUR'

FEED ME SEYMOUR
Vindicare 80
Triumph 150
Exorcist 140
Exorcist 140
Exorcist 140
Crusaders 3x2 60
BSS 110 MM, M, CB, Sim
Seraphim 70 4hF, PP, PS
Seraphim 70 4hF, PP, PS
Seraphim 70 4hF, PP, PS
Pengine 60 TBB, PF
Pengine 60 TBB, PF
Pengine 60 TBB, PF
BSS 110 MM, M, CB, Sim, Combat Squad
Immolator 130
BSS 110 MM, M, CB, Sim
Rhino 80
BSS 110 MM, M, CB, Sim
Imagifier+Litanies 65
Mortifier 60 MF, TBB, Anc
Mortifier 60 MF, TBB, Anc
Mortifier 60 MF, TBB, Anc


Total 1995

Basically the idea is to exploit how quickly our units die to generate an absoluely ABSURD amount miracle dice and then use the Triumph to feed them into the Exorcists.

Min Squads of Crusaders+Pengines+Morties means we're pretty much guaranteed a fistful of dice every turn. Additionally, there are a metric tonne of flamers here to make movement very frustrating thanks to overwatch.

BSS are hopefully generating 2-3 dice per turn and helping recycle dice. Imagifier gives you a shot at rerolling a bunch of dice every turn. Combat squad 1 BSS squad into the immolator. With full reroll wounds on disembark and otherwise not very useful 4s on your miracle dice, you should hopefully be able to kill one unit to generate dice with the simulacrum before they die.

Seraphim are just pretty good cheap objective scorers.

Once your pool gets up and running, every 5 goes into an exorcists wound roll, every 6 goes into the damage roll. If they use indirect to go after the Exos, they better kill them because Hitting on 2s, wounding on 4s against anything will not be awesome for them.

Stratagems: If it isn't Tank Shock, Overwatch, Rejoice the Fallen, or Reroll Exorcist shots, don't worry about it.

The best part of this list is that you absolutely do not care about things dying. Every unit that dies is another bullet in the chamber. You can play the mission hyper aggressively and be fine.

Brilliant name bahahaha

Nice.

I was thinking something like this... Arcos are probably our best unit now so three max squads and then spam the hell out of the other penitent units and just zerg the opponent.

BSS squads, celestians, and the triumph make about as solid a centre as we can have.

Ephrael stern included simply because the model is awesome 🖤



Have you had enough yet? (1995 points)
Adepta Sororitas
Strike Force (2000 points)
Hallowed Martyrs


CHARACTER

Daemonifuge (80 points)
• 1x Ephrael Stern
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Sanctity
• 1x Kyganil of the Bloody Tears
• 1x The Outcast’s Weapons

Hospitaller (40 points)
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Chirurgeon’s tools

Imagifier (40 points)
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Boltgun
1x Close combat weapon

Preacher (45 points)
• 1x Zealot’s vindictor

Triumph of Saint Katherine (150 points)
• Warlord
• 1x Bolt pistols
1x Relic weapons


BATTLELINE

Battle Sisters Squad (110 points)
• 1x Sister Superior
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
1x Combi-weapon
1x Power weapon
• 9x Battle Sister
• 9x Bolt pistol
7x Boltgun
9x Close combat weapon
1x Meltagun
1x Multi-melta
1x Simulacrum Imperialis

Battle Sisters Squad (110 points)
• 1x Sister Superior
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
1x Combi-weapon
1x Power weapon
• 9x Battle Sister
• 9x Bolt pistol
7x Boltgun
9x Close combat weapon
1x Meltagun
1x Multi-melta
1x Simulacrum Imperialis


OTHER DATASHEETS

Arco-flagellants (150 points)
• 10x Arco-flails

Arco-flagellants (150 points)
• 10x Arco-flails

Arco-flagellants (150 points)
• 10x Arco-flails

Celestian Sacresants (130 points)
• 1x Sacresant Superior
• 1x Plasma pistol
1x Spear of the faithful
• 9x Celestian Sacresant
• 9x Bolt pistol
9x Hallowed mace

Crusaders (20 points)
• 2x Power weapon

Crusaders (20 points)
• 2x Power weapon

Crusaders (20 points)
• 2x Power weapon

Exorcist (140 points)
• 1x Armoured tracks
1x Exorcist missile launcher
1x Heavy bolter
1x Hunter-killer missile

Exorcist (140 points)
• 1x Armoured tracks
1x Exorcist missile launcher
1x Heavy bolter
1x Hunter-killer missile

Exorcist (140 points)
• 1x Armoured tracks
1x Exorcist missile launcher
1x Heavy bolter
1x Hunter-killer missile

Mortifiers (60 points)
• 1x Anchorite Sarcophagus
2x Mortifier flamer
1x Twin penitent buzz-blades

Mortifiers (60 points)
• 1x Anchorite Sarcophagus
2x Mortifier flamer
1x Twin penitent buzz-blades

Mortifiers (60 points)
• 1x Anchorite Sarcophagus
2x Mortifier flamer
1x Twin penitent buzz-blades

Penitent Engines (60 points)
• 1x Penitent flamers
1x Twin penitent buzz-blades

Penitent Engines (60 points)
• 1x Penitent flamers
1x Twin penitent buzz-blades

Penitent Engines (60 points)
• 1x Penitent flamers
1x Twin penitent buzz-blades

Mostly because I modeled them this way (because I think they look downright awesome), I'm going to use 10th edition as an opportunity to throw in my flamer models into BSS units given how effective overwatch can be in a pinch.

I'm also going to brush the dust off my meltagun totin' sister models and throw them in an Immolator just to see what a scout moving fire support platform can get up to with Dominions.

None of these things were, or are, effective enough on paper but it's a new edition so I might as well use this as an excuse to get the neglected models on the table.

I had my first game of 10th tonight against Orks.

First takeaway is that Miracle Dice are a lot easier to use throughout the turn since it's not difficult to get a few per turn (and cherubs certainly help).

Melta is not nearly as reliable as before and we may struggle a bit with wall of tank, or monsters with high Toughness. While I eventually did the job, two boss models on Squigisaur, squighog boys, nobs with warboss and a bunch of speed freek buggies proved a tougher nut to crack than I expected. Also, that 6 inch reduction in range for multimedia hurts.

Canonesses are weird now, they aren't really a combat asset anymore, not enough attacks.

Flame weapons are extremely useful. Ignores cover is great, simply because it's very easy to get cover.

The units that stood out most were Seraphim, of which i had 2 squads of 5 with flamer ×2, pistol and 2d6 autohit shots is bonkers and did tons of work, and the fire and move abilitymeans you can often kill even a pretty tough unit like a vehicle and then move to contest or control an objective.

Penitent Engines also stood our as being very good for the points.

@J.Black

I can't say I agree on the Acros. I think they're good, but they suffer from the same problem that repentia have.

If there's a flamer within 12" of them at any point in your turn. They die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

aushlo wrote:
I had my first game of 10th tonight against Orks.

First takeaway is that Miracle Dice are a lot easier to use throughout the turn since it's not difficult to get a few per turn (and cherubs certainly help).

Melta is not nearly as reliable as before and we may struggle a bit with wall of tank, or monsters with high Toughness. While I eventually did the job, two boss models on Squigisaur, squighog boys, nobs with warboss and a bunch of speed freek buggies proved a tougher nut to crack than I expected. Also, that 6 inch reduction in range for multimedia hurts.

Canonesses are weird now, they aren't really a combat asset anymore, not enough attacks.

Flame weapons are extremely useful. Ignores cover is great, simply because it's very easy to get cover.

The units that stood out most were Seraphim, of which i had 2 squads of 5 with flamer ×2, pistol and 2d6 autohit shots is bonkers and did tons of work, and the fire and move abilitymeans you can often kill even a pretty tough unit like a vehicle and then move to contest or control an objective.

Penitent Engines also stood our as being very good for the points.

Isn't that 4d6 shots? Two models with 2 handflamers?

I think Sisters have many problems here at the start of 10th, but the main ones are Indirect Fire, and Overwatch. Overwatch completely feths our best melee units (Arcos and Repentia), and a lot of Indirect has decent AP and at least S6 (meaning they wound any of our infantry on 2's). Lack of significant anti-vehicle/monster is another weakness, but that one can be mitigated somewhat with miracle dice. The best solution to indirect fire is to put units in reserves or transports. But reserves have restrictions on where they can come in, and transports cost points (and $$$ if you don't already own a bunch of them). About the only way to mitigate Overwatch is to really abuse terrain, but depending on the board you're playing on there might not be convenient terrain near where your melee units want to stage.

I'll admit I'm really struggling to figure out a decent list for Sisters in 10th. They are on the struggle bus for sure. Morvenn and a unit of Paragons seem like a no-brainer, but otherwise?

@ERJAK

Aren't Arcos significantly tougher than repentia? 2W and 4+FNP means the oppo needs on average more than 10 flamers to delete a squad (yes I know this can vary with the type of flamer). Not arguing that flamers aren't good against them, simply that for the points they chuck out a lot more hurt than most of our other units.

The more I look at seraphim the more I like them ... 4d6 flame shots from deep strike with a fire and fade ability is going to be very difficult to defend against.

Do we think that with the reintroduction of fire ports we might see mech lists again? Hide all the T3 bodies in metal boxes and just shoot out the hatches? Spam tanks for firepower?

ERJAK wrote:
@J.Blac

Isn't that 4d6 shots? Two models with 2 handflamers?

Yeah. That's what I meant, just 2d6 per model.

Also, Immolators with flamers are going to be very important. Between boosting retributor/dominion output and overwatch being very useful out of phase shooting they did tons of work- ditto seraphim overwatch. Out of phase shooting is very strong and you can do so both in overwatch and with rejoice the fallen, if you have the points. The latter is of course very situational but hits normally with non torrent weapons which is a bonus.

I didn't really find occasion to use fire points, immolators don't have them now a d my sisters largely had to disembark to take objectives.

 J.Black wrote:
@ERJAK

Aren't Arcos significantly tougher than repentia? 2W and 4+FNP means the oppo needs on average more than 10 flamers to delete a squad (yes I know this can vary with the type of flamer). Not arguing that flamers aren't good against them, simply that for the points they chuck out a lot more hurt than most of our other units.

The more I look at seraphim the more I like them ... 4d6 flame shots from deep strike with a fire and fade ability is going to be very difficult to defend against.

I think Seraphim are straight up our only 'A-Tier' unit. They move block a lot things just by existing on the table. A unit of 10 has 8D6 heavy flamer shots for overwatch. If your opponent is setting up to grab an objective with a horde-ish unit, you can deepstrike them down on it and now even attempting to go after it will have them eating a huge amount of our S4 handflamers. They even have enough shots to threaten smallish marine units.

 Vilgeir wrote:
Thanks a ton for that insight GFdoubles, it's awesome and super appreciated.

One question I had was regarding this part:

"18" for Multi Meltas is short. I actually brought a bunch of Heavy Bolters everywhere today just to test the exploding 6s and see how good they are now. They still aren't the answer I think, so I will probably try MMs on Rets again in the next few games"

Forgive me, as I'm probably missing something obvious here, but what was the question you were trying to answer? These weapons aren't intended to be used on the same targets, so was the question whether Rets would be best brought as anti-horde, or as their traditional anti-heavy role?

Thanks again!

Hey there thanks for the appreciation!

I understand some of the confusion, as I really did not mean for that to come off as "me answering a question." That entire part of the post was just to say that I was trying different things in that game with the Rets. I have another game or two coming up soon and plan on going back to MMs and probably putting them in Strategic Reserve to see if they can just come in and delete something T8 or below. In that particular game I was just trying to check on "how good" exploding 6s were on HBs against most targets in the T4-T9 range. Back in early 8th edition and until the start of 9th HB Rets were pretty viable for various things like just having a backfield bunker to clear certain firing lanes so I just wanted to confirm that since the Multi Melta changes in 9th they are still meh at best. I just think having some kind of long range option like HBs is useful especially since the MM range is so short comparatively now. I think the only question I was trying to answer was "is having another backfield ranged option now that MMs are short, Castigators, are shorter, and the Exorcist is the same range as a Heavy Bolter worth it?" and I think in that game I came away saying, "probably not."

Sorry for the confusion! As I play more games and get more experience with the index I will be sure to update this thread!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:
The 'leading a unit until the end of the battle' thing is part of the rules that A. Don't let your character leave the unit, and B. Don't let your character join a new unit.

It's not relevant for anything else.

Thanks for the confirmation here! I was pretty sure it did not actually matter but wanted to get some confirmation regardless! Thanks again ERJAK!

Working on a new iteration of FEED ME SEYMOUR that doesn't give up 2000VP to Bring it Down (I HATE that card. If they're 5 wounds or less, they should only be 1 VP).

Stern 80
Triumph 150
Exorcist 140
Exorcist 140
Exorcist 140
Crusaders 3x2 60
BSS 110
Seraphim 70
Seraphim 70
Seraphim 140
Celestine 150
Zephyrim 140
Zephyrim 70
Zephyrim 70
Retributors 130
Dialogus 60
Rhino 80
Death Cult 45
Death Cult 45
Death Cult 45
Arcos 45

Couple of new things: 1. The Miracle Dice Party Bus. 5 Miracle dice all in one convenient package. Not sure if it's better than just one big squad of Arcos or Repentia, but it's certainly funnier. Plus it would be a laugh riot to waste some necron cryptek with 24 precision attacks.

The other thing is something I call 'the retributor Landmine'. You take a retributor and a Dialogus (with Litanies) and then you camp them within 6 of the Triump, but out of LoS.

If your opponent has enough indirect shooting, you're boned. If they DON'T anything that gets within 18" of that unit and in LoS WILL die (provided you have enough miracle dice).

On Overwatch, you can guarantee all 8 shots hit, all 8 shots wound, and all 8 shots do 6 damage at the low, low price of 24 miracle dice!
Okay, you're most likely just guaranteeing hits, but the high-end potential late game is staggering.
Bonus, the Dialogus' second ability prevents battleshock from stopping Stratagems.

List looks fun! Not y'know good or anything, but if we're going to be rubbish we might as well at least try and have a laugh.

I'm just not sold on the Zephyrim. Unless going from str4 to str5 on the charge is much better than I think it is, they are just meh. I suppose they can be ablative wounds for Celestine and just float around looking threatening?

 J.Black wrote:
List looks fun! Not y'know good or anything, but if we're going to be rubbish we might as well at least try and have a laugh.

I'm just not sold on the Zephyrim. Unless going from str4 to str5 on the charge is much better than I think it is, they are just meh. I suppose they can be ablative wounds for Celestine and just float around looking threatening?

Generally, we're not going to be killing things. What does die is going to die to the Exorcists, or Celestine's Dev wounds. The rest of the bodies are for scoring.

All these people bringing dominions or sacresants like 'oh, I'll shoot at my opponent and do melee' are stupid. You need exactly enough firepower to have more OC on the objective than your opponent and nothing more.

Zephryim are fast and kill enough to take objectives. That makes them better than 3/4ths of the codex to me.

ERJAK wrote:

Generally, we're not going to be killing things. What does die is going to die to the Exorcists, or Celestine's Dev wounds. The rest of the bodies are for scoring.

All these people bringing dominions or sacresants like 'oh, I'll shoot at my opponent and do melee' are stupid. You need exactly enough firepower to have more OC on the objective than your opponent and nothing more.

Zephryim are fast and kill enough to take objectives. That makes them better than 3/4ths of the codex to me.

Meh, they're cool looking models, I loved painting them, and I love fielding them. Sure, call me stupid, but at least it'll be a fun time.