Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game, Prodos loses license to AvP. p.266

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**CptJake**

What I want is to be informed of decisions which affect the game and the schedule soon after they are made instead of way after they are made. That bad news doesn't get better with time thing... Using the 'no grid now' example. I very seriously doubt that was a new decision. I would have liked to known about it when they made it and have had the reasoning and replacement mechanisms explained. I'm not just buying this for figures, I want a fun and playable board game. When you change a mechanism as basic as movement and range determination, I want to know.

How often and how many times do backers need to ask about base sizes before Prodos answers the question? Again, if they are far along in game development as they would lead us to believe, that info should have been out there in an official from Prodos manner a while ago.

And lets be clear, yes we've seen progress pictures. That is not proof the product will be released. As a licensed product, Fox at some point could say "pull the plug, you're not producing what we wanted" or Prodos could burn through available funds and not have the money to finish production and distribution of the product. Are either of those likely? I hope not, but progress pics are not necessarily indicative of guaranteed release either.

The 'well I would rather wait for a decent product than get served a plate of hot garbage on time' answer is old and tired. The reality is they should do a much better job of project planning and management and communicate changes/circumstances which affect timelines sooner and better than they are. They pulled in a lot of money. They have an expensive and big license which is potentially very profitable. When you join up for a big league game, small league excuses don't cut it. As a consumer, accepting those excuses without letting Prodos know it is BS is teaching Prodos their current behavior is fine. If I don't think it is fine, I owe to both Prodos and mself to let them know where I think they are falling short. The ability to accept criticism and get better should be strived for. Accepting status quo when it is substandard is just wrong.

**happygolucky**

CptJake wrote:
What I want is to be informed of decisions which affect the game and the schedule soon after they are made instead of way after they are made. That bad news doesn't get better with time thing... Using the 'no grid now' example. I very seriously doubt that was a new decision. I would have liked to known about it when they made it and have had the reasoning and replacement mechanisms explained. I'm not just buying this for figures, I want a fun and playable board game. When you change a mechanism as basic as movement and range determination, I want to know.

How often and how many times do backers need to ask about base sizes before Prodos answers the question? Again, if they are far along in game development as they would lead us to believe, that info should have been out there in an official from Prodos manner a while ago.

And lets be clear, yes we've seen progress pictures. That is not proof the product will be released. As a licensed product, Fox at some point could say "pull the plug, you're not producing what we wanted" or Prodos could burn through available funds and not have the money to finish production and distribution of the product. Are either of those likely? I hope not, but progress pics are not necessarily indicative of guaranteed release either.

The 'well I would rather wait for a decent product than get served a plate of hot garbage on time' answer is old and tired. The reality is they should do a much better job of project planning and management and communicate changes/circumstances which affect timelines sooner and better than they are. They pulled in a lot of money. They have an expensive and big license which is potentially very profitable. When you join up for a big league game, small league excuses don't cut it. As a consumer, accepting those excuses without letting Prodos know it is BS is teaching Prodos their current behavior is fine. If I don't think it is fine, I owe to both Prodos and mself to let them know where I think they are falling short. The ability to accept criticism and get better should be strived for. Accepting status quo when it is substandard is just wrong.

But you still have not answered the question.

Would you want shoddy product on time or a superior one slower?

The reality is that your still avoiding the question.

Like I said I know the frustration, as someone who has to wait for retail, which is longer waiting than the backers its is annoying to wait, however because they have provided proof and told us that there will be a delay that they have said they cannot help, it is an understandable problem..

And lets be honest, unless some sort of utterly unpredictable problem arises such as all the factories producing the AvP game suddenly get sucked into gigantic sinkholes or suddenly all combust at the same time, the likelihood is, this product is going to get released. Prodos has been constantly been checking with Fox the quality seems to be up to their standards and expectations and I really do think Prodos is being careful with its money so I really doubt that they are going to burn though..

It seems to me that Prodos has been clear to its backers and every delay seems to have been made through unseen circumstances.. Its not everyday you see a company be very open to its backers.

Yes you are entitled to tell Prodos that you and Co. is not happy, but don't you think Prodos already knows, heck I bet their not happy about this delay themselves.

**warboss**

happygolucky wrote:

But you still have not answered the question.

Would you want shoddy product on time or a superior one slower?

The reality is that your still avoiding the question.

The reality is that the two things (timeliness and quality) are NOT mutually exclusive despite most every late kickstarter using the latter as an excuse to cover their butt on the former. You can be both late and inferior or alternately on time and superior.

**CptJake**

warboss wrote:
happygolucky wrote:

But you still have not answered the question.

Would you want shoddy product on time or a superior one slower?

The reality is that your still avoiding the question.

The reality is that the two things (timeliness and quality) are NOT mutually exclusive despite most every late kickstarter using the later as an excuse to cover their butt on the latter. You can be both late and inferior or alternately on time and superior.

Exactly, I have not avoided the (now moot*) question. I want what I paid for, a premium board game. What they have shown so far for the tiles indicates they are not ready to deliver what I bought.

I want Prodos to get their gak together and I want them to communicate better. If you really believe 'every delay 'was the result of ' unseen circumstances' then you must believe Prodos has their eyes shut so they cannot see. This was not their first trip to the rodeo.

The question is moot. I am not really given the option by Prodos. There is no way they invent a time machine in order to deliver even a shoddy product on time. They are late. Every day they are later. Your choice is a false choice to begin with.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

Sadly even if they foresaw possible delays caused by the printer messing up there's not a lot they could have done about it

(they could have picked a different printer, but then they could well have messed up too)

At least they are showing progress on the project (and spotting that the tiles are not acceptable so having them re-done)

not brilliant by any means, but they'll get there in the end

**UNCLEBADTOUCH**

Still think I might get this before my relic knights stuff

**HudsonD**

You read the comments about a 4 week delay, you'd think Prodos is worse than Palladium...

**UNCLEBADTOUCH**

Four week delay is nonsense if the cut is the only issue. That can be rectified in a couple of days tops.

**warboss**

HudsonD wrote:
You read the comments about a 4 week delay, you'd think Prodos is worse than Palladium...

Palladium was using the "we want quality so it'll be late" excuse back in December/January before they put out pics of the "quality" models that looked like crap with seams along most every front surface and a parts count of 30 pieces for a terminator sized model because of stupid decisions like splitting things the size of a space marine's head in half. Nobody is worse than palladium without stepping over the line into outright fraud. I do, however, admit that after the ignorance and deceit in the Robotech KS that I'm a bit sensitive to the ol' "late for quality" excuse even if they've partly fixed some issues. It is effectively the "dog ate my homework" excuse for delinquent gaming kickstarters.

**timd**

CptJake wrote:
I don't want to waste time in the comments section. If they've dropped the idea of using a grid, what are they replacing it with?

If they answer that, could someone please post it here?

Thanks

Jake

As a guess, movement will be by tile: a fig may move up to two tiles as a possible example, and other figs on a shooting figure's tile do not block his LOS. Ranges could be in tiles.
This would eliminate the need for grid or measuring devices.

**HudsonD**

warboss wrote:
Palladium was using the "we want quality so it'll be late" excuse back in December/January before they put out pics of the "quality" models that looked like crap with seams along most every front surface and a parts count of 30 pieces for a terminator sized model because of stupid decisions like splitting things the size of a space marine's head in half. Nobody is worse than palladium without stepping over the line into outright fraud. I do, however, admit that after the ignorance and deceit in the Robotech KS that I'm a bit sensitive to the ol' "late for quality" excuse even if they've partly fixed some issues. It is effectively the "dog ate my homework" excuse for delinquent gaming kickstarters.

Were it Palladium or DP9 saying such a thing, yes, I'd assume it's just an excuse, but so far Prodos have shown they're reasonnably competent and professional, so they deserve the benefit of doubt when they mention a delay.
Furthermore, given the tasks involved in re-cutting all the tiles, 2 to 4 weeks a delay is perfectly reasonnable.

I'd certainly prefer if the box and minis were already there, but so far, this project has been satisfyingly well-managed.

**Visceral_Mass**

Why would a company send you a cut proof of your product using materials that are different from the intended production materials?

Wouldn't they have to send out another cut proof, using the intended materials, since the intended materials may cause issues as well?

I wouldn't be surprised if the material used was the intended material until they saw the cut proof and decided it sucked and needed to be changed.

Looking at their proofs, I get the feeling they have little to no experience on the boardgame aspect of the game and are making rookie mistakes (warped blast template) as they try and save money.

They should have just released a couple of double sided maps with the game.

I blame Fox for giving them the license.

**Pacific**

I have to say, I'm massively excited by the miniatures for this game. I would get them regardless of having a game to play with them (sure it wouldn't be too much trouble subbing in another rule set).

But, hearing that they have done away with squares or measurement (the former to protect the look of the artwork) doesn't give me that much faith in the mechanics for this game. Movement and movement rate is a pretty fundamental mechanic of any board or tabletop game, and if that is being decided at this late stage.. well, I hope we just don't end up with some rules that stink - it can't have left much time for playtesting surely?

**CptJake**

The say they will be shipping next month. No time at all for play testing and making adjustments to the rules that will ship with the game at this point. Hell, I doubt they will actually get the tiles approved and printed in time to pack the game box and get them shipped to where ever they intend to fulfill pledges from in the time they have left, unless they are even more full of gak than I assume at this point and already have printed them.

**Pacific**

Actually, I was wondering whether they were printed and then suddenly realised that there were no grids on them..

Or, it's some kind of nonsense from Fox or licensing that means the images can't be changed in any way.

Perhaps I'm being disingenuous - there is precedent with board games using a 'tile' for range and movement (the AD&D boardgames, for one), but it's just the way that this has been sprung a month before the game is due to ship. And, I'm sure that preview games we were shown over the past year had a grid system for the game!

**Siygess**

I have a feeling that Deadzone probably had some influence here. Sure, it had a grid, but considering the movement speed of the miniatures they may as well be moving around a series of 3x3 tiles.

However I don't think this is a recent decision. Even back in May I think it was clear that there weren't going to be grids on the tile sections and the shots we have seen of the resin terrain have never had grids on them. You can even look at the artist proofs from March although to be fair, you might not want to have the grid showing on the proofs.

..but yeah, they didn't come out and say that back then. It doesn't bother me personally because I prefer the tile-based movement but I can appreciate that it isn't going to be for everybody.

**Ktulhut**

Although it feels like I'm just repeating myself now, I couldn't give less of a gak about the board game rules. I'm sure they'll be fun enough for a few play-throughs, but I just want my sweet, sweet Warrior Aliens. I've got RPGs to run, man.

And that's where I'm getting ticked off. I almost wish they'd send stuff out in dribs and drabs if it meant getting my non-board-game figures sooner.

**CptJake**

Siygess wrote:
I have a feeling that Deadzone probably had some influence here. Sure, it had a grid, but considering the movement speed of the miniatures they may as well be moving around a series of 3x3 tiles.

However I don't think this is a recent decision. Even back in May I think it was clear that there weren't going to be grids on the tile sections and the shots we have seen of the resin terrain have never had grids on them. You can even look at the artist proofs from March although to be fair, you might not want to have the grid showing on the proofs.

..but yeah, they didn't come out and say that back then. It doesn't bother me personally because I prefer the tile-based movement but I can appreciate that it isn't going to be for everybody.

But they were specifically asked about grids on the resin terrain during the project funding period, and promised they would be there.

I know 'stuff changes', but I see an integrity issue here. This isn't a recent decision (clearly if they think they can start shipping next month rules have been written and printing approved and likely ongoing), yet they've kept it from us. What else have they kept from us?

It is great that some folks don't care about the game. Hooray for them. That does not change the fact that some folks DO care about the game (likely to include the license holder, Fox) and if it ends up being half assed it is going to hurt Prodos' ability to expand the line.

**Pacific**

Do you have to make almost every post you write sound like a slight, CptJake? I don't think anyone cares nothing about the game design, but just in the scheme of things that is less important than the miniatures (proportionately more or less so)

Right now I think that the KS is suffering from poor quality comms, and it almost reads like it is being done by a fan who is commenting on what he is seeing in a half-arsed manner, rather than the producers from the game itself. It's been like a captain on an airplane saying "there is a problem" to the passengers, but then not giving any further details - of course, everyone onboard is going to be going crazy!

**CptJake**

Pacific wrote:
Do you have to make almost every post you write sound like a slight, CptJake? I don't think anyone cares nothing about the game design, but just in the scheme of things that is less important than the miniatures (proportionately more or less so)

I guess when I read

Ktulhut wrote:
Although it feels like I'm just repeating myself now, I couldn't give less of a gak about the board game rules.

and similar comments (of which I've seen plenty of), it annoys me. There have been folks in the KS comments section and here that seem annoyed that some folks do care about the board game. I have not seen similar comments from the opposite side where folks don't care about figure quality and belittle those who do.

**Ktulhut**

Fair enough Jake, but we're just expressing our opinions. I happen to be much more interested in the wargame than the board game, and even more interested in simply painting my models.

What annoys me is that my models are just sitting in a warehouse in Poland because the one aspect of the release I'm going to get the least use out of isn't done yet.

**Forar**

Reminds me of Wyrd's "Evil Baby Orphanage" KS that got held up for months because of issues with a small plushie. Of note, it had *zero* rules applications, but it kept people from getting almost everything for ages. As I recall they shipped out the core deck, but all the expansions, minis and other perks were held up.

Anyway, sorry to hear about the delay, but it still looks like you guys will get your stuff long before Palladium gets around to even shipping wave one of our stuff out.

**Pacific**

That sounds like a real pain. I suppose it shows, no matter how badly you think your KS is being handled, there will always be one that is worse (not that that excuses anything).

The latest update, no. 66

Hello backers,
On the heels of last week's update and your comments, here is this week's update.

Over the next few days, hopefully by Sunday, Jarek is going to post a video explaining the decision made to remove the grids from the board and how it will work. This will be a visual explanation and should be posted by Sunday right here. I promise it will be much less 'fussy' than our video on the front page...

I would also like to re-iterate again, we show you everything we are allowed to show you. Anything we cannot show, we simply do not. This might look like we are 'holding back', especially when compared to other Kickstarters, but I am afraid that is totally down to the project being what it is.

We are excited to see what you guys think of it when it gets to you, but we have to hold back on what we show and be professional, simply as we are legally obliged to do so! Everything is going well and running smoothly and the delay is totally unavoidable.

We would like to thank you for the patience you have all displayed thus far.

Reading the positive comments from many of you, and displaying your understanding compassion, has been a real help to everyone involved.

So once again. If we have not shown you something, this is because we cannot show it due to legal obligations!

Good news, in response to a high number of requests from many of our backers we have chosen to re-open the Pledge Manager. If you don't want to add anything, you will not need to do anything, but if you do want to add anything, the pledge manager will be open for you to do so. The reason we closed the Pledge Manager initially was for our admin team to fulfil certain contractual obligations but we are now able to re-open it. The Pledge Manager will re-open by Monday at 11.59PM we will make an update out of our usual 'every Friday' sequence to let you know when this has happened.

We would also like to take a moment to write a little something about some very unfortunate news we received. One of our backers, David Chase from Kansas, USA, has unfortunately passed away. His mother, Evajean Chase has kindly provided us some information about her son.
From what I have gathered, speaking to Evajean, he was an incredibly kind soul, dedicated to his hobby and to his country. His life was unfortunately short, due to a year and a half long struggle with cancer, but he will be fondly remembered by his family and friends as someone who truly tried to make a difference to local politics, regardless of how hard it might have been to make a change.
We offered to refund the pledge he made and put it towards his trust fund, but she requested that we actually keep the pledge he would have wanted to make towards the project. So, with this payment, we have decided that we are going to submit some concepts to Fox for a new character within the setting, in memorial of David.

This, if approved, will be a character within the USCM with background, rules and a model in the game.

October 1963 - March 2014
October 1963 - March 2014
From all of us at Prodos Games LTD, we hope he may rest in peace.

As always, if you have any questions, please send a private message or comment below and we will do our best to get back to you.

Thank you all again, Prodos Games LTD

Think that's a really nice touch, hopefully they will get the go-ahead from Fox to make the miniature.

Looking forward to some of the rule demo videos now.

**BobtheInquisitor**

Okay, that's classy. I hope to buy that mini someday.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

I hope Fox says yes and they can bring this one off

**AAN**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Okay, that's classy. I hope to buy that mini someday.

I have to agree, a very nice gesture! Hats off!

**LuciusAR**

Prodos put something on their Facebook page yesterday which linked to a blog post and video on kick-starter showing game play and explaining how the game is going to work without the use of grids. However the content was visible to backers only.

Has anyone seen it who would care to give us a low down?

**HudsonD**

LuciusAR wrote:
Prodos put something on their Facebook page yesterday which linked to a blog post and video on kick-starter showing game play and explaining how the game is going to work without the use of grids. However the content was visible to backers only.

Has anyone seen it who would care to give us a low down?

This ?

Couple of main ones was:

board aesthetics
different sized models and issues they create on limited tile surface
unsymmetrical balance - offering all players a dynamic experience despite commanding different number of units
conflicts with some specific game mechanics

They mention a few thing, like the grid ruining the art (ok), the mini bases being 30mm and bigger, with some models not even having a base (the crusher I think) while the grid was 25mm square, streamlining movement to help gameplay, and a few other things that work better with a square grid, like hiding and stuff.
If you ask me, they're still using a grid, except the square are now tile-sized. So, yeah...

**CptJake**

I got the impression the issues boil down to poor scenario design coupled with not being able to write rules that handled different base sizes and perhaps a poor choice of grid size (1 inch grids were smaller than even the smallest bases, that was a really bright choice from the get go). I'm looking forward to how they intend to handle LOS in the rules. The grid made explaining it in Space Hulk pretty easy.

**Nostromodamus**

Seems to be massive backlash over allowing people who missed the KS a chance to buy pledges on their website.

As someone who bought a pledge via Paypal just after the funding period, perhaps I'm biased, but as long as people are getting the toys they pledged for, what's the issue?

It's not like new "backers" buying pledges takes anything away from anyone.