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Jarek Ever Thanks, shame that his "forum" is loosing peoples, something unexpected, however, the hate, criticism won't change anything, it's IP product not ours thus it take time to get it approved in fully. Yes Prodos has made some mistakes (like we were not aware that we would have to get an approval on the material we are making models with in the USA (non hazardous paper work ect). but we are learning as well... in the other hand we are in the last stage of approval with Fox, so it's not bad in my opinion, I am waiting for KSs I backed (non-Licensed), one of them almost 1.5 year delayed, another one 1 year, however, even their KS does not required any IP clearance, I wont criticise them as I know how hard work s to fulfilling the KS.

I guess the line I tell my daughter about 'Just because the other kids do it does not make it acceptable or right' kind of fits.

"Well others are late too!!!"

Waawaaawaaaa

I have not seen too much criticism leveled at Prodos for missing their declared deadlines. I have seen a LOT of criticism leveled at them for piss poor communications. Deflecting to 'Others are even later' when that is not the real issue shows either a lack of understanding, or worse, a belief the backers are idiots and can't tell the difference. Maybe even a mix of the two.

I don't think Prodos really 'know' why backers (or some backers) are pissed off with them.

Worryingly I don't feel Prodos 'care' why backers (or some backers) are pissed off with them.

richred_uk wrote:
I don't think Prodos really 'know' why backers (or some backers) are pissed off with them.

Worryingly I don't feel Prodos 'care' why backers (or some backers) are pissed off with them.

Personally, I believe that the incident that has lead to the heavy-handed moderation and / or the KS page takedown is more significant to the delivery and success of the product than catering to the need for 'answers' coming from their irate backers right now.

Consider the following hypothetical:

Kitsune wrote:Dear license holder. We've observed a lot of negativity on the kickstarter page regarding the upcoming Aliens vs Predator boardgame and the comments we are reading will impact the profitability of the game as long as they remain visible to our target market. In addition, your deferment to us as a company as the reason for the delays to this project is hardly endearing. Unless you gain control of the situation and cease naming this company as the root cause for the negativity we will commence with the termination of this agreement.

In that.. entirely hypothetical situation, Prodos can hardly come out and say "They made us do it". Whatever investment Fox have put into this project so far, it is chump change compared to whatever Prodos have put in to this and Fox wouldn't think twice about canning the project in a second if they feel they need to protect the value of the brand. That's a dip in projected revenue for Q4 and Prodos down the toilet and nobody at Fox would bat an eyelid. Now, make no mistake. I am nobody's cheerleader. I backed WZR and it wasn't until last month that I got the remainder of my pledge. But the mistakes that were made were in line with my expectations of a new company biting off a lot more than they could chew by reviving an IP on that scale.. and when I factor all that in, I found the overall experience to be.. acceptable. I went into the AvP kickstarter knowing all this, knowing that they would have learned a lot from the WZR kickstarter while at the same time making a bunch of new mistakes.. and that's exactly what is happening. I'm not surprised, but neither am I disappointed.

(Kickstarter) money invested in a product they can't finish or sell means no profit for Prodos, and probably.. no Prodos. They aren't big enough yet to take that on the chin. So have Prodos really reached a point where they need to act the way they are acting to prevent more damage to the Fox / Prodos relationship? I can't prove that, but my gut tells me yes. You want the product, Prodos want to get it to you and if there is a better path to do so than the one they are on right now, I am sure they would be taking it.

There is basically only one other company in the wargaming industry that behaves like this, although admittedly Prodos haven't taken the next step of closing down all lines of communication with customers and pretending social media doesn't exist.

In neither case is it acceptable. Yes the fans can be an entitled bunch and complain about everything, but that's the way things are! They have to get used to it, and come back grovelling and doing everything they can to try and keep their customers on board. This is basic consumer relations 101, and what they are doing here in terms of accusations flying is not the way to keep customers on board.

Their new customers/sales guy has got a lot of work to do here to repair customer relations.

True, but since Prodos didn't do this during WZR and there were definitely some moments where s**t got real, I have to consider the possibility that they are not calling the shots on communication right now. It's kind of like when I tell my kids that if I hear one more word about fracking Christmas, I'm calling Santa and we're going to call the whole thing off. If one of their friends comes over and asks them what they want for Christmas my kids are wise enough *not* to push their luck and say withim earshot "Oh I'd love to tell you what I want but my dad says that I'm not allowed to talk about Christmas."

Not that I'd say something mean like that! Normally I get to be Good Cop!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
..or to put it in a more relevant context, I work for a big IT corporation who have partnered with numerous smaller companies over the years. If, during the course of the collaboration, the partner was responsible for the public source of information on that project and it was soured with negative feedback.. and the partner started bad-mouthing the Corp when things went off track instead of putting out an approved press release.. heads would most certainly roll. If said partner wanted to continue working on that project after that.. well, there would be many hoops and a crap-ton of jumping.

 Pacific wrote:


Yes the fans can be an entitled bunch and complain about everything, but that's the way things are! They have to get used to it,

Why?

Why should companies put up with that? There are plenty of us that aren't over entitled complainers to support product lines.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Pacific wrote:


Yes the fans can be an entitled bunch and complain about everything, but that's the way things are! They have to get used to it,

Why?

Why should companies put up with that? There are plenty of us that aren't over entitled complainers to support product lines.

I would think that if a company didn't want to listen to feedback (positive or negative) from backers the easiest way to do that would be to not have any. Crowd source funding is what it is, if you don't have the capital to produce something on your own you get partners. When you get partners you get opinions, entitled or not. Now you can say that backers aren't the same as partners, but I would say that you're wrong. We're both entitled (see what I did there?) to our own opinions. Further, they could keep promises that they have made. Simple rule of business under promise, and over deliver. If they would have followed that, many of the "over entitled" backers wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Just saying...

Fox easily have the funds to have covered design, development and manufacture of this product from their petty cash tin. If we assume that Prodos entered into the relationship with Fox well before launching the KS campaign (and I still wonder why Fox were not even mentioned when the campaign started - no hint of their involvement on the project home page), it stands to reason that the hoard of people they will have had looking at Prodos' plans will have looked closely at Kickstarter and the KS process. They would have known for sure that projects on KS would involve communicating with backers. They would know that backers expect certain things from creators (whether right or wrong) and tend to get pretty vocal when those expectations are not met. They would have seen at least some of Prodos' experience of kickstarter through WZR.

So realistically both parties went into this project knowing full well what would happen if backers were unhappy. They knew they'd get flack. Hell, projects that run pretty much 100% perfectly still get flack - you can't please all of the people all of the time. Has this project got more flack than justified? To be honest I don't think it has. They've taken very little grief over delays, by far the majority would rather wait for the product to be right than get it delivered in a hurry and delivered badly. backers have been hugely supportive whenever they've seen models - I'd be pushed to think of more than a mere handful of criticisms in that regard. They took flack over the tiles and rightly so, what we've seen so far is not of a quality we'd all hope to receive, but the vast majority of the complaints have been about communication and broken promises (promises of communication that is).

They (with the help of Fox of course) could have easily avoided the entire lot by going straight to retail, but instead they took the kickstarter route, no doubt to garner support and excitement in the market. They chose to do it, they knew very well what would happen if (when?) things didn't go to plan, and in failing to communicate, in repeatedly over promising and under delivering, they really only have themselves to blame.

I have no truck with the idea that somehow disgruntled over entitled backers are to blame. Are we entitled? Hell yes, they have our money. We are entitled to fair and honest communication. We are entitled to get what we've ordered, and we are entitled (though they are certainly entitled to ignore) our opinion.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Pacific wrote:


Yes the fans can be an entitled bunch and complain about everything, but that's the way things are! They have to get used to it,

Why?

Why should companies put up with that? There are plenty of us that aren't over entitled complainers to support product lines.

When I say 'put up with' I mean that they shouldn't shut down lines of communications with their customers under any circumstances. Even if a company has made some unpopular decisions and made a higher amount of unsatisfied sentiment in those forums, there will still be a much larger percentage who are probably happy or don't care enough to voice discontent. Nonetheless those people might enjoy using the social media, and its free advertising/marketing, feedback etc. for the company. I'm sure you don't need me to explain the benefits of social media.

biggusdoggus wrote:
Fox easily have the funds to have covered design, development and manufacture of this product from their petty cash tin. If we assume that Prodos entered into the relationship with Fox well before launching the KS campaign (and I still wonder why Fox were not even mentioned when the campaign started - no hint of their involvement on the project home page), it stands to reason that the hoard of people they will have had looking at Prodos' plans will have looked closely at Kickstarter and the KS process. They would have known for sure that projects on KS would involve communicating with backers. They would know that backers expect certain things from creators (whether right or wrong) and tend to get pretty vocal when those expectations are not met. They would have seen at least some of Prodos' experience of kickstarter through WZR.

So realistically both parties went into this project knowing full well what would happen if backers were unhappy. They knew they'd get flack. Hell, projects that run pretty much 100% perfectly still get flack - you can't please all of the people all of the time. Has this project got more flack than justified? To be honest I don't think it has. They've taken very little grief over delays, by far the majority would rather wait for the product to be right than get it delivered in a hurry and delivered badly. backers have been hugely supportive whenever they've seen models - I'd be pushed to think of more than a mere handful of criticisms in that regard. They took flack over the tiles and rightly so, what we've seen so far is not of a quality we'd all hope to receive, but the vast majority of the complaints have been about communication and broken promises (promises of communication that is).

They (with the help of Fox of course) could have easily avoided the entire lot by going straight to retail, but instead they took the kickstarter route, no doubt to garner support and excitement in the market. They chose to do it, they knew very well what would happen if (when?) things didn't go to plan, and in failing to communicate, in repeatedly over promising and under delivering, they really only have themselves to blame.

I have no truck with the idea that somehow disgruntled over entitled backers are to blame. Are we entitled? Hell yes, they have our money. We are entitled to fair and honest communication. We are entitled to get what we've ordered, and we are entitled (though they are certainly entitled to ignore) our opinion.

Oh, sure. We are all entitled to opinions as backers. I mean, what is it that they say? Opinions are donkey-caves.. everyone has one

But your point about Fox having the funds is telling. You are absolutely right. They have cash coming out of the wazoo so if they really wanted an AvP game, they could have paid for it all out of a fraction of the profit their accounts must make every month. But.. there's risk there. Direct financial risk and also a risk of devaluing the brand if the end result is a bit stinky. That's not where the smart money is. Do you think that FOX paid for Alien Isolation or.. heh Aliens: Colonial Marines?

Instead, you license your IP to somebody who has a business plan to generate the capitol to fund the creation of the product.. someone with a good track record (Gearbox!) or perhaps someone who can do it cheaply and with a margin so good that you don't care. You do the math, figure out what your cut is and decide if the profit you will make from the venture is worth the risk of your investment. And what is the investment? IMHO, FOX are only putting man hours into the project. So, some lawyers, a project manager, a brand manager and maybe 2-3 underlings to actually review the content that Prodos creates. None of them will be working on this project full time and if they weren't working on this, they would be working on the licensing of the same IP to someone else, for some other kind of product. After all, Aliens love underpants.

So the financial risk is minimal and I think what we are seeing now is something to do with the protection FOX wrote into the contract regarding the brand itself. If things get really bad, I could even see the licensee being liable for damages. So maybe FOX should have done more homework on the nature of Kickstater (I don’t think they have previously licensed any of their IP to a kickstarter project before but I could be wrong). Heck, they could probably have hired some of us veteran backers as consultants

It just seems to me that for such a (potentially) trivial investment on the part of FOX, the way to make the deal water tight is to fill the contract with get-out clauses that protect the Aliens brand by allowing FOX to walk away from the table at the slightest whiff of risk.. and the fallout from that.. of pledge fulfillment or the inability to do so.. is none of their problem. It’s all on Prodos. Maybe they performed due diligence after all. Take some of the cash for none of the accountability.

So, again, this is all just idle speculation.. but I think that Prodos underestimated how slowly the corporate wheels turn when they drew up the game plan to present to FOX. The owners of Warzone are – IIRC - small fish by comparison and were able to offer relatively fast turnaround times on approval. I think Prodos have signed a contract that leaves them with almost all of the liability, and it was signed on the basis of generating X amount of revenue for FOX by a certain date. Now they are stuck in a position where they might not be able to meet that commitment to FOX – both because of problems they created for themselves, and because of these delays introduced by FOX – and as the backers lose their patience with Prodos, FOX finds themselves with more and more reasons to walk away from the project even though they may be responsible for the delays. Then Prodos break the unwritten (or if the FOX lawyers were on the ball – written) rule that you don’t do anything that portrays your leash holder in a negative light - even if it’s true – and I think you end up in this kind of Kobayashi Maru situation.



Whew!

Part of me wonders if Fox just found out that Prodos got the funds via KS and is now in "wtfbbq #shutitdown" mode...

@Siygess - I think I agree with everything you've written there.

 Alex C wrote:
Part of me wonders if Fox just found out that Prodos got the funds via KS and is now in "wtfbbq #shutitdown" mode...

If we assume the whole request a licence thing was made by Prodos before the KS startedm it seems unlikely that Fox granted a licence without an understanding of how Prodos planned to undertake the project.

looks like Fox are taking control the update needs their prior approval (that or it's a way to spin it out for another week - next Fridays update - Fox need more time to review another week guys honestly!)

Prodos Games Ltd says:

Hi guys,

We are sorry that we have been unable to deliver an update. We know you are waiting for one and we just wanted to make sure you know that it is coming.

At the moment, the update is with Fox and is pending approval.
We've been told by the Fox team in the UK that it is being looked at by the team in the USA and should be with us at some point next week.

We've said it before, but we want to say it again, we appreciate the patience you have had so far and unfortunately just have to ask for a week before this update will hopefully be ready.
Thanks again,
PRODOS Games LTD

My guess is there contract had a stipulation for an initial date that the product had to be released/produced and an associated payment to fox would be due or the rights revert back to fox.

Sounds like they are having to renegotiate there deal with fox for the ip with fox potentially playing hardball now they have seen the interest generated.

All of this would be pretty standard stuff in regards to ip rights. But it was also the main reason I did not back a project with such a big IP from such a small untested company.

Personally one thinks a lot of this is the usual people who want to argue and shout and spout the usual vitriol as they have no off line lives. You see it so much in the forums and while one admits to enjoying a good argument as much as the next person, their are limits.

The lack of communication one will admit has not helped, however one is more then aware of the restrictions that can come about through corporate contracts.

A lot of the delays and issues are one would bet down to FoX and how big business operate at that scale. (Not a dig) Prods are a small scale operation and so deals that come about from this are usually based around a couple of people arguing about what and why.

However FoX when they put this deal together most likely put down a team to deal with this, of IP lawyers, business managers, specialist managers, art managers, product managers, around 6-7, and then the admin staff for them. each one of these managers/directors probably makes more in a year than the project is worth. For them its about long term strategy and business.
This means that communication can take a long time to filter through the big team and each option needs to be checked and gone through via committee. That all takes time.

The problem comes from the smaller producer who operates on what they perceive is a reasonable timeline and big business timelines.

For Prodos this will be a learning experience and a big learning curve. As such deals often have big long winded contracts that states what can and cannot be discussed.

In the end it means that we all learn something, and need to just take time out and relax. The AvP universe, is big and has a lot of fans that want to keep it as x,y,z resource. That's all well and good, but if they have/had a license then they are also obligated to stick to certain conditions, all of which most likely are still in place.

What one would like to see is even if its just a friendly note to every one, Prodos is under contractual obligation as to what we can and cannot say. And also that while we would all like to see x,y,z it might not be possible due to legal obligations under the IP laws.

Lastly people this is a chance for all fans to push ideas and help develop the franchise and universe. Go nuts.

 adlard.matthew wrote:

Prodos is under contractual obligation as to what we can and cannot say.

Is that a typo and you meant "they" instead of we? If not, I'm pretty sure none of the KS terms included giving Prodos power to speak for us as individual or restrict our expression of those thoughts as long as it is within the KS rules.

Or he is representing Prodos.

Joyboozer wrote:
Or he is representing Prodos.

Brave man

 Alex C wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
Or he is representing Prodos.

Brave man

Doesn't take any bravery to make a comment as a rep and then ignore any questions or comments from the peanut gallery of backers.

 CptJake wrote:
KS isn't going to refund you.

Unless you recently bought a pledge from the webstore, you're charge is way over the 6 month old where your credit card company can do anything.

Oh, chargebacks can still happen after 6 months. Successfully, even.

This, I know.

 warboss wrote:

 adlard.matthew wrote:

Prodos is under contractual obligation as to what we can and cannot say.

Is that a typo and you meant "they" instead of we? If not, I'm pretty sure none of the KS terms included giving Prodos power to speak for us as individual or restrict our expression of those thoughts as long as it is within the KS rules.

True.. and I doubt there is anything in the contract between FOX and Prodos that says FOX can only dictate terms to Prodos that are in line with KS rules because how Prodos chose to fund their game is their problem. To be fair to FOX, I would imagine that with most of their licensing deals, the licensee is only ever beholden to the licensor and they probably aren't used to their licensee 'sharing' accountability with both themselves AND a third party (us). But in a situation where Kitsune says "There is too much negativity. Police it, or we pull the plug. And stop telling people about stuff that is our fault, or we will pull the plug. Hell, we can't trust you to handle your own communication. Stop talking to these 'backers'. From now on, you will let us do it or we pull the plug" ..then I have to ask you, as a backer, what do you want more? The freedom to express your concern or the product you supported? Because what if things are so bad right now, those two things are mutually exclusive?

 CptJake wrote:

 Alex C wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
Or he is representing Prodos.

Brave man

Doesn't take any bravery to make a comment as a rep and then ignore any questions or comments from the peanut gallery of backers.

It also wouldn't be the first sockpuppet account we've seen in a KS thread...

 Siygess wrote:
From now on, you will let us do it or we pull the plug" ..then I have to ask you, as a backer, what do you want more? The freedom to express your concern or the product you supported? Because what if things are so bad right now, those two things are mutually exclusive?

Honestly, if given the choice I would take my freedom to express concern, even if it meant losing money. I won't willingly support a company I don't trust or like, and anyone willing to censor my opinion and mislead me can get bent and fail for all I care. My honor and integrity are worth far, far more than my pledge is worth, and being forced to keep quiet when I see something I don't like or understand, without being able to ask what I consider reasonable questions about it, does't work for me.

Now, having said that, I MUCH rather Prodos get their crap together and deliver what I've paid for. I WANT a cool AVP board game, and the extra figures I pledged for.

 CptJake wrote:
I won't willingly support a company I don't trust or like, and anyone willing to censor my opinion and mislead me can get bent and fail for all I care.

Agreed.

Prodos has made my list of game companies I will no longer consider doing business with (along with GW and AGM).

The product looks amazing, as does much of the product of the others on my "naughty list" (imho), but their work ethic and business practices are terrible.

If you say so, guys. I'd have a ton of respect for a company who would take a fatal bullet for it's backers out of principal.. but no company in their right mind would actually do that.

This is just idle speculation but I just went back to some pinball forums I havent visited in a long while and there is a company making a Predator pinball machine.

Recently they have closed down most communication, havent posted pictures of work in progress and seem not to even want to say the word 'predator'.

Alot of angst from people who have preordered and much speculation of rights problems, funding problems etc

Sound familiar?

I didnt dig too deep but the similarities are interesting.

Maybe there is a new guy in control of the IP at Fox and he doesnt like how the last guy ran the place and is clamping it all down? Who knows.

I heard the new guy brought back Firefly just so he could cancel it again before it aired.

Let's hate that guy.

It was a 'they' just a turn of phrase as a personal opinion, as the sentence should have been "Prodos is under contractual obligation as to 'what we can and cannot say'. " or rather " 'What they can and cannot say'. "

That kind of contract is a common one with a lot of big business and one would guess that the Game is also being worked as part of the canon like the Dark Horse new comic series, so it all takes time.

Interesting interview http://www.scified.com/site/aliensvspredator/exclusive-interview-with-dark-horse-comics-about-their-new-avp--prometheus-comics - "The comment over Ridley Scott also having a say would mean that delays are possible as everything has to be covered."

Though one as a backer has been somewhat worried by this bloody KS and how its handled one ill admit, initially dropped out, but bought a pledge later one. One's just hoping for the best now, before backing anything else they offer as how they finalise this one will be the telling thing.

 adlard.matthew wrote:
It was a 'they' just a turn of phrase as a personal opinion, as the sentence should have been "Prodos is under contractual obligation as to 'what we can and cannot say'. " or rather " 'What they can and cannot say'. "

That kind of contract is a common one with a lot of big business and one would guess that the Game is also being worked as part of the canon like the Dark Horse new comic series, so it all takes time.

Interesting interview http://www.scified.com/site/aliensvspredator/exclusive-interview-with-dark-horse-comics-about-their-new-avp--prometheus-comics - "The comment over Ridley Scott also having a say would mean that delays are possible as everything has to be covered."

Though one as a backer has been somewhat worried by this bloody KS and how its handled one ill admit, initially dropped out, but bought a pledge later one. One's just hoping for the best now, before backing anything else they offer as how they finalise this one will be the telling thing.

Yeah, his post makes no sense, is definitely one of the Prodos guys...