Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game, Prodos loses license to AvP. p.266

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**biggusdoggus**

JohnHwangDD wrote:

What I don't get is how Prodos could have gotten this far along without a clear legal framework from Fox. That's insane.

I suspect they did have, but they have breached it in some way. It's not good for a business relationship when you blame your bigger partner for problems, as Prodos has done continuously over delays allegedly being down to Fox's slow approval process. Even if true (and it probably is) one does not drag the governing company's name through the mud and not expect any consequences.

**Asterios**

biggusdoggus wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:

What I don't get is how Prodos could have gotten this far along without a clear legal framework from Fox. That's insane.

I suspect they did have, but they have breached it in some way. It's not good for a business relationship when you blame your bigger partner for problems, as Prodos has done continuously over delays allegedly being down to Fox's slow approval process. Even if true (and it probably is) one does not drag the governing company's name through the mud and not expect any consequences.

I would have to disagree there, evidently you have not watched Family guy which drags Fox thru the mud every chance they get, them and the Simpsons, but on the other hand they are money making machines.

**richred_uk**

I suspect that dates might be relevant in all this:

AvP KS funds 28/11/13 (sorry to people who use dates the wrong way around)

AvP page pulled 25/11/14

Now (and this is only a speculation) that's roughly a year between the 2.

I already suspect (and might have had supporting evidence from the KS pages, but that's now gone) that the reason that Prodos are trying to sell 5k copies of the KS edition of the game before going to hard plastic is that there's a minimum licence fee payable per 'edition'.

It would be reasonable for the licence to require an annual minimum payment. With Prodos having been unable to release the product to retail, I'd believe that they've been unable to meet a payment against the licence.

If that failure invalidated the licence, then there would be a legitimate IP issue for Fox to complain to KS about.

This could all be complete nonsense, I *really* hope it is. I really want to see this game, these models. But I now have very limited faith in the company's ability to deliver.

**CptJake**

I do think the size of the project was a big issue for Prodos and Fox. I think Fox did expect a typical toy type license return (probably thinking 10s to 100s of thousands of units sold) and Prodos saw games like Zombicide bring in 7 figures and thought this would make them Big Time.

But then reality kicked in. The KS brought in less than half a million, which sounds like a lot, but it was not enough to cover Prodos cranking out even an initial 5k copies of the base game, let alone tool up a multi-thousand unit retail production run they would need to profit off the license. And to Fox, with a multi-billion revenue each year, they realized it is VERY small potatoes from their perspective. So Prodos overextends, and Fox sees their licensee talking smack about them and perhaps breaking contractual agreements and realizes 'This just isn't worth it'.

Again, just speculation.

**biggusdoggus**

@richred_uk

if that were true, and if we assume Prodos has spent the majority of their cash on development and manufacture, then they might already be in a downward financial spiral from which their only escape might be the launch of a product they can't release because they haven't finished it. They'd be essentially bankrupt.

I hope you're wrong.

**adlard.matthew**

But then reality kicked in. The KS brought in less than half a million, which sounds like a lot, but it was not enough to cover Prodos cranking out even an initial 5k copies of the base game, let alone tool up a multi-thousand unit retail production run they would need to profit off the license. And to Fox, with a multi-billion revenue each year, they realized it is VERY small potatoes from their perspective. So Prodos overextends, and Fox sees their licensee talking smack about them and perhaps breaking contractual agreements and realizes 'This just isn't worth it'.

Thought something similar earlier on, but after seeing that Dark Horse has also got comic rights again, thought again, as they will also not make that cash (relatively) but does draw in a nice revenue, but who knows.

Anyone heard from Fox as to whether they are allowing this game to be sold at all, if Prodos are still going ahead.

Hope they are as can see this doing well in stores, as it would be a popular seller. And could also do well in regular retail shops,

**Asterios**

there may be a possibility that Prodos had a trial 1 year contract with Fox for the rights to make a miniature game, and with the game not coming out after a year Fox pulled the contract and Prodos has to try to renegotiate the deal and contract.

**Pacific**

It would be so, so cruel if were going to come this close to getting our mitts on these minis, and for them not to arrive.

Although I still don't think that is likely to happen - at the very least I'm sure the KS will be sent out to backers, although it would be nice if it went on general release also. They are some cracking minis, and I'm sure with the franchise it would sell well (if it were given the chance to go on sale)

**Rick_1138**

I submitted a rather long winded ticket to KS about the whole thing, just about what may actually be going on, what Prodos is telling us and what we are seeing online don't add up necessarily. I also commented that many are getting worried that no models will appear or that any refunds will be possible and many feel that we are not being given any information which is making the situation worse.

I will see if they can offer any advice, but I don't like how we now have to go begging to Prodos Direct for information or a refund request, which they will probably ignore.

I realise this may all be hand wringing, but at this point id rather have my £155 back, and if folk do get miniatures later and I don't, I wont be that bothered.

**Warzone Resurrection**

biggusdoggus wrote:
Well while this has been going on, I've been exchanging emails with Kickstarter to see what I could find out.

I was getting nothing more than standard cut/paste replies from their support desk, so today I tried the copyright team directly.

My email to them ...

Ref: Alien vs Predator The Miniatures Game - IP dispute.

Dear Sir/Madam,

In accordance with your copyright help page which states the following ...

"Will anyone see my DMCA notification or counter-notification?

Kickstarter is committed to transparency in disabling access to users' content. We may publish a copy of each DMCA notification and counter-notification. All personally-identifying information will be removed from notifications and counter-notifications before they are published."

please provide me with a copy of the DMCA notification and any counter notification.

Yours faithfully,

xxxxxx

and this time I have a response .....

Hi xxxxxx,

Thanks for writing in. The project in question was removed from public view as a result of an intellectual property claim by 20th Century Fox that falls outside of the DMCA. Accordingly, no DMCA notice was posted on the site.

We hope this helps.

Regards,

Kickstarter Copyright

Make of that what you will, but it doesn't match what we've been told by Prodos no matter which version of their excuses you believe.

I wont comment his as it was me (Prodos) taking the page down :

OFFICIAL, APPROVED BY FOX, UPDATE:

UPDATE, 08/12/2014:
Hello backers, It's important for us to say that the Kickstarter page was initially removed by mistake, but now we have decided with Fox that it might be better to stay down until the product you have pre-ordered has shipped.
This is the same for our Facebook media and images that were uploaded there. From here on, we only want to share information about the final products you will be receiving, rather than work in progress imagery or text.
The project is almost finished, we are in the final stages of approval and therefore it will be ready to ship soon.
We are not able to give an approximate date for shipping at this stage, but as soon as the final elements of the project have been approved, we will calculate printing time, assembly time and shipping time and then share the final date with you.
Thank you for your continued patience,
PRODOS Games LTD"

**Sheep**

Thanks for the update we all have already seen.

I realize NDAs and other legal strings might be pretty restrictive but something other than a copy and paste would have been appreciated.

**CptJake**

Warzone Resurrection wrote:

I wont comment his as it was me (Prodos) taking the page down :

OFFICIAL, APPROVED BY FOX, UPDATE:

UPDATE, 08/12/2014:
Hello backers, It's important for us to say that the Kickstarter page was initially removed by mistake, but now we have decided with Fox that it might be better to stay down until the product you have pre-ordered has shipped.
This is the same for our Facebook media and images that were uploaded there. From here on, we only want to share information about the final products you will be receiving, rather than work in progress imagery or text.
The project is almost finished, we are in the final stages of approval and therefore it will be ready to ship soon.
We are not able to give an approximate date for shipping at this stage, but as soon as the final elements of the project have been approved, we will calculate printing time, assembly time and shipping time and then share the final date with you.
Thank you for your continued patience,
PRODOS Games LTD"

Won't comment? So why post at all? Your cut and paste of something which the reply from KS seems to refute just seems to cement the fact that you are being less than honest with us. Heck it could be you DID take the page down, but did so because KS said "Hey, Fox says you're project is violating their IP, take down your page or we will".

Either come out and say "KS is wrong" and explain why, or wait until you can post something new that can be verified. You are not helping your case doing the 'No comment but here is our previous statement which seems to have been contradicted" thing.

I get this is probably frustrating to you and the other guys at Prodos. Making it worse for yourselves doesn't help that.

**Ruglud**

From Facebook:

Backer #1
When this whole IP thing first blew up, I argued strongly that things didn't add up, that the disappearance of the KS page and the pictures from here within minutes of each other seemed more than just an administrative error. I was lambasted by the fan boys, told to shut up, told I was wrong numerous times, told even that I owed Prodos an apology for daring to question their version of events.

Well today I call for Prodos to apologise to us.

The attached was posted on another forum ....

[Posted PDF of biggusdogggus email exchange shown in this thread]

This makes it crystal clear that the kickstarter page was taken down as a result of an IP dispute lodged by 21st Century Fox, NOT as we have been told here, as a result of a clerical error by Prodos.

Jarek Ever, please explain yourself. Either you have been lying to us all along regarding how and why the KS page was taken down, or Kickstarter has made up the IP dispute and amazingly pulled Fox's name out of the hat.

Please explain what really happened, and why you chose to tell a completely different story. Feel free to apologise at this point - you owe us that much, especially since so many of us have been taking flack for questioning this for the past fortnight.

Please explain the nature of the current working relationship between Fox and Prodos.

and please explain how you propose to move forward and get this game out to both backers and the market - if indeed you are still in a position to do so.

It's time for some honesty, it's time for some humility, it's time for some answers.

Followed by lots of posts agreeing / disagreeing / hypothesising / etc...

Jarek Ever
what is that ? KS Backer #1, we have been through this one several times, you have an official updates from Prodos with Fox blessing, I really got enough of this conspiracy trolling . If you strongly believe that we are bunch of lairs or thief please leave this group and don't stir like that.

Some more posts follow seemingly supporting Jarek

Jarek Ever
here you are, lets See who is .

Spoiler:

**Rick_1138**

Warzone Resurrection wrote:
biggusdoggus wrote:
Well while this has been going on, I've been exchanging emails with Kickstarter to see what I could find out.

I was getting nothing more than standard cut/paste replies from their support desk, so today I tried the copyright team directly.

My email to them ...

Ref: Alien vs Predator The Miniatures Game - IP dispute.

Dear Sir/Madam,

In accordance with your copyright help page which states the following ...

"Will anyone see my DMCA notification or counter-notification?

Kickstarter is committed to transparency in disabling access to users' content. We may publish a copy of each DMCA notification and counter-notification. All personally-identifying information will be removed from notifications and counter-notifications before they are published."

please provide me with a copy of the DMCA notification and any counter notification.

Yours faithfully,

xxxxxx

and this time I have a response .....

Hi xxxxxx,

Thanks for writing in. The project in question was removed from public view as a result of an intellectual property claim by 20th Century Fox that falls outside of the DMCA. Accordingly, no DMCA notice was posted on the site.

We hope this helps.

Regards,

Kickstarter Copyright

Make of that what you will, but it doesn't match what we've been told by Prodos no matter which version of their excuses you believe.

I wont comment his as it was me (Prodos) taking the page down :

OFFICIAL, APPROVED BY FOX, UPDATE:

UPDATE, 08/12/2014:
Hello backers, It's important for us to say that the Kickstarter page was initially removed by mistake, but now we have decided with Fox that it might be better to stay down until the product you have pre-ordered has shipped.
This is the same for our Facebook media and images that were uploaded there. From here on, we only want to share information about the final products you will be receiving, rather than work in progress imagery or text.
The project is almost finished, we are in the final stages of approval and therefore it will be ready to ship soon.
We are not able to give an approximate date for shipping at this stage, but as soon as the final elements of the project have been approved, we will calculate printing time, assembly time and shipping time and then share the final date with you.
Thank you for your continued patience,
PRODOS Games LTD"

TBF here, reading between the lines of the "Official, Approved by FOX update" bit, that Fox has basically brought the hammer down and laif out their stall on how this project will continue from this point till release.

Which I can understand, its a bit rubbish, and makes it all feel a bit soulless and has resulted in a lot of worry and anger, however I don't feel that the game is dead.

Though a faster update basically saying, don't panic, game is fine, internal politics etc would have gone a long way.

Anyway, I feel easter may be realistic, and if Prodos and Fox can just settle a little bit, sure it will be fine.

Just shows you though, no news is never good news online!

**CptJake**

Fox approving that update has no bearing on the whether or not Fox initiated an IP dispute. The update is something I would expect Fox to approve if there was an IP dispute (though there are other reasons they would approve it). From a Fox perspective, having the page shut down gives the legal team time to resolve the dispute. The update as worded would hopefully calm the backers as the resolution process moves forward.

Yep, that is all conjecture/speculation.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would love to see what was under the red in that exchange.

**Nostromodamus**

Jarek has never been able to communicate in a professional manner, least of all to those expressing valid concerns.

**Rick_1138**

Yeah, ork head swear censor gifs showing up all over that! I realise they must be under stress and busy and having these kind of e-mails aren't helpful but that's no excuse to be unprofessional.

**Warzone Resurrection**

Alex C wrote:
Jarek has never been able to communicate in a professional manner, least of all to those expressing valid concerns.

Well, I sent several mails to the KS support and at some point you just have to "a cannon ball shot" as the polite and professional does not work with them at all.

I think, the question is more about my patience than my ability to communicate in a professional manner, out of 10 "polite" email to the KS I got 0 replays, however the last one with word "solicitor" in the content, they have came back to me in 5 minutes... conclusions?

In the other hand ,we, a a company, should stay only with the Official communication and I won't make any more comments, even the personal one as I am passion about this cannon so strongly, on the FB as it seems that I am a bad man now, l am lier, thief and a guy with bad manners

Anyway, as per my comments above, copied from the FB, please see the official Prodos' statement regarding this project.

As a Conclusion :

1. There is no IP dispute and never was.
2. The project is almost approved and it will be shipped soon.
3. The page was taken down on our request, as previously started, we will work to bring it back once the product is ready to go.

Thanks.

Please follow the official Prodos updates for more information via: KS message, newsletters and on our AvP The Hunt Begins Facebook page.

Thanks J.

**Ruglud**

Further update on 'that' Facebook thread...

KS Backer #3
So, wheres the apology then KS Backer #1?

KS Backer #1
no apology necessary. I have spoken to Jarek privately and he has all the evidence needed to confirm the authenticity of the email. He disputes Kickstarter's version of events, but the email itself is authentic.

Hell - he's even posted evidence here - that mostly red attachment above contains a conversation between him and KS in which he's quoted a slightly differently worded version of the email I showed - I'm not the only one who has had such conversations with KS.

KS Backer #3
That doesnt look like an apology to me, where is it?

Mark Rapson
KS Backer #1. It is clear to me that the status quo of the email in question has been defined. KS have posted it and Jarek is disputing/querying with them using a Copy paste function from what you have shared. Enough said. You will, alongside everyone else get an update when one is ready. Lets leave this discussion to then.

Mark Rapson
All further comments on this post will be deleted. case closed.

It's strangely fun sitting back with the popcorn to watch these 'conversations' on Facebook...

**Nostromodamus**

Warzone Resurrection wrote:
out of 10 "polite" email to the KS I got 0 replays, however the last one with word "solicitor" in the content, they have came back to me in 5 minutes... conclusions?

Maybe I should try the same with your company then, seeing as I've sent multiple emails to various customer service people, none of which have bothered to reply.

**CptJake**

Not that KS isn't lying/misrepresenting the situation, but the next time I catch KS lying or misrepresenting something will be the first time I do so.

Out of KS, Fox and Prodos, who has the least to gain from misrepresenting the situation or at least presenting it in as positive a light as possible? An alternate way of looking at it is which has the most to lose if the story reads a certain way?

Perhaps KS admitting they allowed a project creator to just turn off their project by accident and then decide to leave it off just because, would be detrimental to KS so they make up the IP issue. Of course one would then wonder why they allowed that to happen at all. They had already been paid, they would have lost nothing by bringing the page back...

**warboss**

CptJake wrote:
Not that KS isn't lying/misrepresenting the situation, but the next time I catch KS lying or misrepresenting something will be the first time I do so.

Out of KS, Fox and Prodos, who has the least to gain from misrepresenting the situation or at least presenting it in as positive a light as possible? An alternate way of looking at it is which has the most to lose if the story reads a certain way?

Perhaps KS admitting they allowed a project creator to just turn off their project by accident and then decide to leave it off just because, would be detrimental to KS so they make up the IP issue. Of course one would then wonder why they allowed that to happen at all. They had already been paid, they would have lost nothing by bringing the page back...

Did KS also almost simultaneously close down the Prodos' other completely different avenues of discussion like on the Facebook page and forums as reported earlier in this thread?

**biggusdoggus**

CptJake wrote:
Perhaps KS admitting they allowed a project creator to just turn off their project by accident and then decide to leave it off just because, would be detrimental to KS so they make up the IP issue.

it would be very silly of them to name 21st Century Fox as being the 3rd party though if no such IP dispute claim has been made. Given the damage such a statement might cause to Prodos (and Fox), That way lies a certain law suit for libel.

Oh and purely for clarity, since it may not be clear to all, Backer #1 as listed in Ruglud's posts, is in fact me.

**Pacific**

As a Conclusion :

1. There is no IP dispute and never was.
2. The project is almost approved and it will be shipped soon.

That's good to know. Think it's important here to 'stay on target', in the words of Luke Skywalker.

**Nostromodamus**

Alex C wrote:
Warzone Resurrection wrote:
out of 10 "polite" email to the KS I got 0 replays, however the last one with word "solicitor" in the content, they have came back to me in 5 minutes... conclusions?

Maybe I should try the same with your company then, seeing as I've sent multiple emails to various customer service people, none of which have bothered to reply.

Prodos got back to me with an answer about 10 minutes after posting this, so thank you Jarek

No refunds being given, which is fair enough, I just wanted an answer.

Now, let's hope fulfillment is as close as they say.

**JohnHwangDD**

Alex C wrote:
No refunds being given, which is fair enough,

How is "no refunds" to be considered "fair" in any way?

There is no evidence that Prodos is planning to fulfill their obligations, no schedule or plan in place to do so, and no explanation as to why things are like this.

Until Prodos can clearly state what's going on and give some kind of definite schedule, they owes any backer a 100% refund, no questions asked.

That's basic contract law, and I'm pretty sure they don't want a series of minor legal entanglements across the world on top of whatever might be happening with Fox.

If this were my money, I'd be hopping mad.

**Nostromodamus**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Alex C wrote:
No refunds being given, which is fair enough,

How is "no refunds" to be considered "fair" in any way?

I guess I should have specified I was referring to my situation only.

I was a late backer and my payment date is outside of the Paypal refund period. I'm not covered by Kickstarter ToS. I haven't got my order yet either though, so I paid for a pledge without getting anything in return yet, which leaves me not really sure where I stand from a legal perspective.

Just crossing my fingers at this point really.

**JohnHwangDD**

@Alex - You still paid money to Prodos against a promise to deliver a something specific.

If Prodos has
a) no stated plan to deliver,
b) a plan to deliver something different,
c) a plan to deliver other than what they offered at the time you paid,
... then you are entitled to your money back.

**CptJake**

Alex, you are in a better position than KS backers, and here is why:

KS Backers, if everything does go tango uniform, are supposed to be refunded, BUT Prodos will easily be able to show they spend the money from KS in a good effort attempt to complete the project, and will therefore be able to avoid the obligation to refund.

You, and others who bought via the web store did not 'pledge', you very clearly did pre-order merchandise. If they do not deliver you have a much better chance at legal recourse than us KS backers as a result.

**Nostromodamus**

CptJake wrote:
Alex, you are in a better position than KS backers, and here is why:

KS Backers, if everything does go tango uniform, are supposed to be refunded, BUT Prodos will easily be able to show they spend the money from KS in a good effort attempt to complete the project, and will therefore be able to avoid the obligation to refund.

You, and others who bought via the web store did not 'pledge', you very clearly did pre-order merchandise. If they do not deliver you have a much better chance at legal recourse than us KS backers as a result.

But what is the date for "failed delivery"?

May 2014?

"Before Christmas"?

Prodos could just keep stringing the delivery date out, so what then? I could pursue the refund further, but as long as they keep saying "soon" can I really do anything?