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2 years seems to be the cut off point.

While this is small comfort to most of you guys, I really do believe that we will get most, if not all of our pledges as long as FOX don't bring down the axe.

gak has happened, and will no doubt continue to happen even if the approvals come through. But from my experience in dealing with Prodos during the delivery phase of WZR, I never once got the feeling they were channeling Tony whats his face from Defiance Games. Both WZR and AvP need time to 'bed in' before they make any money for Prodos so they sure as heck aren't set to take the money and run because there isn't any. There's just a bunch of molds and 80% (heh) of a project's inventory sitting around that they can't sell.

So.. the way the project has been managed, sure. The communication issues and the secrecy around this IP thing? I get that. But if there is some way to deliver on this project, I'm confident that they will. That's not something we have to worry about, I think.

As for the durability of the models, there were definitely some issues with WZR but I think that's down to the early model design with components that were too thin.. because the material is durable like restic, but holds detail like your more conventional resin. I've dropped more than a few Undead Legionnaires on concrete and unlike other, more expensive resin models which have cracked or shattered, these guys just bounce.

I don't believe Prodos went into this with the intent to steal or commit fraud. I do think they bit off more than they could chew and were not as successful with the KS as they needed to be to fully capitalize the effort. (Setting artificially low goals can have consequences, surprise!) I do believe they have intentionally mislead more than once in an effort to gain time and deflect criticism, and I HATE being lied to or mislead. To me that is like showing a red flag to a bull, it will get my attention and not in a good way.

I do think they want to deliver. I question their ability to do so with the issues they are facing. I hope they do deliver what I have paid for, and I hope the quality is what they claimed it would be. I am not too worried about sculpt quality, I am worried about quality of the board game (which I understand some folks do not give a crap about, but I do).

I also question their ability to move forward as a company. Lack of integrity and throwing tantrums are not parts of any successful business plan I know of. They do not impress me right now, and I honestly don't see them turning that around, even if they do deliver what they promised. I'm sure others will see the New Shiny when Prodos begins another project and will be all over it. I won't be.

 CptJake wrote:
I do think they bit off more than they could chew and were not as successful with the KS as they needed to be to fully capitalize the effort.

I think Prodos made two major mistakes with this kickstarter that ultimately cost them a lot of cash.

#1 Not having prior approval. Prodos should have had the contents of the box finalized, including rules and fluff ready to show. That sort of preparedness would have gone a long way with potential backers.

#2 Not understanding the mass market appeal the license could have pulled in. Prodos shot themselves in the foot by catering to hobbyists instead of casual gamers. Board games are huge right now, and not tapping into that market was a big mistake.

Not sure if it's been mentioned here, but I've seen a lot of posts asking why Prodos can't ship all those models they have sitting in the warehouse.

"Printed materials" is what the Prodos guys keep bringing up as a major snagging point, and it's unrealistic to expect Fox to allow models to be shipped without the correct packaging and branding - which sounds like exactly what a big chunk of printed materials would cover.

 Visceral_Mass wrote:
Board games are huge right now, and not tapping into that market was a big mistake.

The project was to fund an AvP Board Game...

No sure how to comment this all this conspiracy theories...

I think, we have been transparent as we could, however the expectations from us, in some cases are just ridiculous. Maybe we should post a copy of the Contract or our bank account statements to prove that we have a license or money?

I backed 6 project myself on the KS, 4 of the are delayed for more than 6 moths, they are non-IP one, thus, they wont need any approval whatsoever and 1 non IP project is now almost 2 years delayed. The Delays are not something you may seen only in the Prodos alone.

It is difficult to handle huge license like AvP, but not impossible. Yes we have made mistakes, and underestimated the delivery time, and that was based on the initial approvals.

Yes, we wanted the game out by Xmas, and we could not make it as some material is still in the approval (from September).

For us its lost opportunity not to have this game by now or month ago, however, this is how it works, we have to wait. It's not our IP.

Is that so difficult to understand that every manufacturer wants his product out asap?

Also some development rules were changed during the Product Development and we have to follow. Simple.

At this stage there is nothing bad happening with the license, its handled they way it should be, in accordance with new rules, that is it.

Not sure what else you may expect from us, we can't give exact delivery time, however we have been told that it will be soon (the final approval).

The conspiracy theories are no needed, we have need as much transparent as we can, answering any question and providing as much info as we are able to.

Regarding business, well there is a lot of professional business advisers. Maybe because of that we have 3 huge licenses ... and we are not ripping of GW or other big boys.

For your information, Prodos is not only WZR or AVP. we are sculpting , designing, 3d printing, casting miniatures for the biggest companies on the market, so we have to do something right.

Anyway, as started earlier today, please follow official, approved by Fox, communication.

Have a good weekend, hopefully we will have some good, long expecting news coming to us tomorrow and we will be able to share them with you asap.

Regards J.

EDIT: and there is also this interview with Prodos, I say some bits about the game developement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH_-OmUCYWY

That is a lot of text to tell me absolutely nothing new.

There is no explanation why the KS has to be locked, for example.

 Ktulhut wrote:
Not sure if it's been mentioned here, but I've seen a lot of posts asking why Prodos can't ship all those models they have sitting in the warehouse.

"Printed materials" is what the Prodos guys keep bringing up as a major snagging point, and it's unrealistic to expect Fox to allow models to be shipped without the correct packaging and branding - which sounds like exactly what a big chunk of printed materials would cover.

The box for each squad contains a sort Fluff, which needs to be approved (part of the 166 pages/ 60k words doc sent for approval) , same for the back of the board game box. And the packaging is with legal line. No legal line, no product.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
That is a lot of text to tell me absolutely nothing new.

There is no explanation why the KS has to be locked, for example.

Maybe this : Also some development rules were changed during the Product Development and we have to follow. Simple. ??? However I am assuming, for you this is not satisfactory answer, we cannot say any more than it's stated in the "approved" communication.

No, not "simple".

Handwave.

Like street hustler wave the hand to distract from some dirty trick while refuse to answer the truth.

And we are back to the tin foil hats.




Anyway from those posts from Warzone, they, well actually these two posts offer quiet a bit of info, and expected delays so so far no real worries.

 Alex C wrote:

 Visceral_Mass wrote:
Board games are huge right now, and not tapping into that market was a big mistake.

The project was to fund an AvP Board Game...

Yep. And right up front they mentioned the retail version would have 1-2 piece figures. With that now changed to 10-15 per Predator (assumedly less for the Aliens but probably similar for the Marines), the typical board game crowd will end up largely untapped,which is a shame.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
No, not "simple".

Handwave.

Like street hustler wave the hand to distract from some dirty trick while refuse to answer the truth.

You see, this is why I stay away from commenting, I should just let the conspiracy theories to go on, as it does not matter what I say, you will believe that I am not telling the truth.

I said, we have been transparent as we can, we have told you that nothing bad is happening, and ask to follow the official updates. And I got answer like this.

At this stage we cannot say more about it, and more information will be revealed once we can talk about it.

Warzone, how many of those other projects you backed managed to delete their own project page then decide its in their best interests to leave it down?
Youre going to cop flak for it, suck it up. People are pissed because of decisions you made. either put the page back up or deal with the consequences in a more professional manner.

Joyboozer wrote:
Warzone, how many of those other projects you backed managed to delete their own project page then decide its in their best interests to leave it down?
Youre going to cop flak for it, suck it up. People are pissed because of decisions you made. either put the page back up or deal with the consequences in a more professional manner.

Page was not deleted, but is hidden at this stage, (the only way for KS to do it is by this IP dispute information) well maybe if the other KS were on license they would also end up hiding to tidy up a bit, not sure.
As I said if some rules were changed half way through (or at the very end) we have to follow.

Is the KS page is needed for the Game to be developed? I don't think so.
For communication? sure, we can still message each other.
For fulfilling the KS, no.
So why we would need that page back if its NOW causing concerns and may cause now validation of the contract?

So why would we strongly wanted the page back at this stage? Why not wait until the product is fully developed and can be shown?

TIP : google Aliens: Colonial Marines lawsuit, maybe this will ring the bell a bit.

I'm going to link to a few things with 3rd party IP licenses that did NOT need to hide their KS pages:

Robotech RPG Tactics
- Palladium delivered within the US, and is delivering ROW right now.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm

Mega Man, the Board Game
- pre-production, and moving nicely
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1821440755/mega-mantm-the-board-game

Bubblegum Crisis ultimate edition
- in production, and preparing to ship.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/madoverlord/bubblegum-crisis-ultimate-edition-blu-ray-set

It is very strange how all of those other licensed KS manage to be transparent, while Prodos can't come close. Robotech, in particular, given the history of Harmony Gold legal wranglings.

So if it has no further use for you its not necessary? It didn't occur to you backers continue to use the front page and comments section long after the funding closes? People like the security having that page provides, it makes them feel more secure about handing over money with absolutely no protection.

 Alex C wrote:

 Visceral_Mass wrote:
Board games are huge right now, and not tapping into that market was a big mistake.

The project was to fund an AvP Board Game...

They sure don't seem to be marketing it that way, everything I see seems to be calling it/ marketing it as a miniatures game. If it truly is a board game, it seems like they went out of their way to make it inaccessible to the average board gamer.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'm going to link to a few things with 3rd party IP licenses that did NOT need to hide their KS pages:

Robotech RPG Tactics
- Palladium delivered within the US, and is delivering ROW right now.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm

Mega Man, the Board Game
- pre-production, and moving nicely
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1821440755/mega-mantm-the-board-game

Bubblegum Crisis ultimate edition
- in production, and preparing to ship.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/madoverlord/bubblegum-crisis-ultimate-edition-blu-ray-set

It is very strange how all of those other licensed KS manage to be transparent, while Prodos can't come close. Robotech, in particular, given the history of Harmony Gold legal wranglings.

We are talking here about small licenses not a huge Corporation ones, they may follow different rules, they may not have restricted contract or maybe they company did not changed the owner in the process and maybe the new owner did not put new rules in places, I really don't know.

Regardless of the licensing, I just think it's a tad disingenuous to claim that you're being "transparent" when you're deliberately concealing all of the information you've shared to date, and then follow up by refusing to elaborate on any details of where the project is, and if/when it will be delivered.

You're asking people to "Trust me", but not giving any rational basis for that trust, or showing why such trust would be well-founded.

This whole exchange makes me really glad that I never backed any of your projects.

Which is too bad, as the product looks pretty.
____

ETA - I'm out of this conversation. I wish the backers a lot of luck in getting their stuff - from the looks of things, they're going to need it.

Joyboozer wrote:
So if it has no further use for you its not necessary? It didn't occur to you backers continue to use the front page and comments section long after the funding closes? People like the security having that page provides, it makes them feel more secure about handing over money with absolutely no protection.

The page does not provides any security nor the KS, to backers or project creators, have a look on the Terms and conditions of the KS.

However we have encourage backers to join our official AvP Forum (forum.prodosgames.com) and Facebook group if they want to discuss the product.

It is a perceived security. You took it away and people became insecure.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Regardless of the licensing, I just think it's a tad disingenuous to claim that you're being "transparent" when you're deliberately concealing all of the information you've shared to date, and then follow up by refusing to elaborate on any details of where the project is, and if/when it will be delivered.

You're asking people to "Trust me", but not giving any rational basis for that trust, or showing why such trust would be well-founded.

This whole exchange makes me really glad that I never backed any of your projects.

Which is too bad, as the product looks pretty.

Well if provided information + "we said what we can" is not transparent enough then there is nothing more to discuss.

We said in the official updates were "the project" is what else do we need to add?

"Hello backers, It's important for us to say that the Kickstarter page was initially removed by mistake, but now we have decided with Fox that it might be better to stay down until the product you have pre-ordered has shipped.
This is the same for our Facebook media and images that were uploaded there. From here on, we only want to share information about the final products you will be receiving, rather than work in progress imagery or text.
The project is almost finished, we are in the final stages of approval and therefore it will be ready to ship soon.
We are not able to give an approximate date for shipping at this stage, but as soon as the final elements of the project have been approved, we will calculate printing time, assembly time and shipping time and then share the final date with you.
Thank you for your continued patience,
PRODOS Games LTD"

1. we said that the project is secured and continue its development.
2. we said that delivery date will be know once we have approved materials, which should be soon.
3. We said that we wont show any WIP materials, (here we have not given any explanation, however please add 2+2 in my above post and it should be clear to you)

What is missing to be more transparent?

You see, someone said that we are not transparent because we are not explaining all, including the size of my shoe. however I have not seen any concretes why we are not transparent.
No, that is not the case ,we are transparent as much as we can! For us we are 100% transparent, for you maybe not as we haven provided the 100% detailed reasons for our actions.
Where you stand depends on where you sit.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding the product:

You will have your chance soon, once the AvP is on the shelf in your FLGS.

BTW, I am not asking to blandly trust my words, I am just asking to follow up an official updates regarding the AvP from us /Fox.

I would like to stop this "conspiracy theories" as there is no need for that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joyboozer wrote:
It is a perceived security. You took it away and people became insecure.

I got your point.

I didn't back but warzone; if that is a prodos staff posting, you're being quite obtuse about why people are talking about possibly not receiving their stuff. Having the page down also doesn't help because there's no where else for backers to get together and discuss stuff that that isn't moderated by yourself

Sining wrote:
I didn't back but warzone; if that is a prodos staff posting, you're being quite obtuse about why people are talking about possibly not receiving their stuff. Having the page down also doesn't help because there's no where else for backers to get together and discuss stuff that that isn't moderated by yourself

Sorry if you read my post that way, it was not my intention.

However, our job is to make sure that peoples are aware about the progress and they know that the product is not at risk, maybe then we could discuss the future of AvP rather than "possibility of not receiving their stuff" , as this is not the case.


In regards to "moderating" it's necessary in the case of AvP as we are obligated to protect the IP.

However, our job is to make sure that peoples are aware about the progress and they know that the product is not at risk, maybe then we could discuss the future of AvP rather than "possibility of not receiving their stuff" , as this is not the case.

I think that's really the main point.

I'm sure what a lot of (perhaps silent/lurking) posters are waiting on, and really good to hear coming from someone at Prodos.

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

Sining wrote:
I didn't back but warzone; if that is a prodos staff posting, you're being quite obtuse about why people are talking about possibly not receiving their stuff. Having the page down also doesn't help because there's no where else for backers to get together and discuss stuff that that isn't moderated by yourself

Sorry if you read my post that way, it was not my intention.

However, our job is to make sure that peoples are aware about the progress and they know that the product is not at risk, maybe then we could discuss the future of AvP rather than "possibility of not receiving their stuff" , as this is not the case.


In regards to "moderating" it's necessary in the case of AvP as we are obligated to protect the IP.

How strict are the rules you have to abide by? Can we see new painted pictures of finished miniatures and gameplay videos? I think getting as much of that out as possible at the moment would placate most backers.

Joyboozer wrote:

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

Sining wrote:
I didn't back but warzone; if that is a prodos staff posting, you're being quite obtuse about why people are talking about possibly not receiving their stuff. Having the page down also doesn't help because there's no where else for backers to get together and discuss stuff that that isn't moderated by yourself

Sorry if you read my post that way, it was not my intention.

However, our job is to make sure that peoples are aware about the progress and they know that the product is not at risk, maybe then we could discuss the future of AvP rather than "possibility of not receiving their stuff" , as this is not the case.


In regards to "moderating" it's necessary in the case of AvP as we are obligated to protect the IP.

How strict are the rules you have to abide by? Can we see new painted pictures of finished miniatures and gameplay videos? I think getting as much of that out as possible at the moment would placate most backers.

As per official update, we have to wait until we have the product fully approved and ready to go to customers, this is the PD policy and we cannot do anything about it.

From my understanding, based on the issues with the Alien:Colonial marines, we cannot show any WIPs any more as if someone use these pictures for advertising it may be classified as "misleading customers".The product, until is ready to go, is subjects to changes. Lucky we have our models fully approved at proto stage, meaning that after the packaging approval (and Fluff) would have "product ready to go", so not far away from that.

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

As per official update, we have to wait until we have the product fully approved and ready to go to customers, this is the PD policy and we cannot do anything about it.

From my understanding, based on the issues with the Alien:Colonial marines, we cannot show any WIPs any more as if someone use these pictures for advertising it may be classified as "misleading customers".The product, until is ready to go, is subjects to changes. Lucky we have our models fully approved at proto stage, meaning that after the packaging approval (and Fluff) would have "product ready to go", so not far away from that.

Now *this* is exactly the sort of communication that we should have been seeing about 3 or 4 weeks ago - I follow the logic to this, and I'm quite happy to accept it. If Prodos had come out and said - "we can't show WiP any more, and as a result all those pics on the KS are breaching our agreement with Fox", then there wouldn't have been the panic that came about with the "oops we pressed the wrong button" story.

You guys sculpt gorgeous models and all the feedback I've seen say you cast them pretty well too, but your communications have been dreadful. Net result is that I've gone from considering upping my pledge via the manager to add another £30 or so, through considering trying to sell out of my pledge to now, just about staying in there to see it through. The poor communication has cost you sales and created a PR problem for you - I hope it is a learning experience for Prodos, as I want to see more lovely models coming out in future.