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Yeah,
So my AVP pledge is delayed because they have the miniatures but no Game components.
And my incursion pledge is delayed because they have the game components but no miniatures...

I'm disappointed by the delays by both companies, I have over £500 invested in these...
I do think they will finish, For me it's like a race to see which one completes first!

Panic

Bit off topic, but I do sympathise with Grindhouse and Incursion. I feel from their updates that they are fighting our corner and pushing the project along as fast as they can. I have an original copy of Incursion, so technically can play it to some extent whenever. I have some STOR stuff I could proxy if I wanted.

I'm hopeful that Prodos can have a more public presence. As it happens I think I'll be seeing them in person next weekend. I'll have some questions up my sleeve.

I think the problem is everything has to fit with the 'canon' Fox has in mind for the franchise,

including stuff that they've not shown to Prodos

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I think the problem is everything has to fit with the 'canon' Fox has in mind for the franchise,

including stuff that they've not shown to Prodos

Didn't some of the game components resemble actual characters from the movies? Like the android token looking like Bishop and one of the marines looking like Apone. It could be possible that Prodos is having issues with things like that considering they may have been made without permission to use the actor's likenesses.

Plus, they were pretty adamant about getting the Capcom AVP characters into the game. I wonder how Fox feels about their inclusion.

 Ruglud wrote:
AvP was mentioned on the Beasts of War: Weekender show. They mention a date of April apparently for delivery of the Kickstarter Pledges. I haven't watched it right through, but it's kicked up a mini storm on the AvP facebook group page.

But why would BoW lie about that, though? I've watched the video and it would hardly have any impact on the discussion at all if they had presented it as speculation rather than "We talked to Prodos and things are on track for an April release date." They mention that people were coming to them and begging them to contact Prodos to get more info but I doubt it would have hurt BoW if they had to say "Sorry, guys...", before continuing on with their discussion about the pros/cons of licensed games.

Also, I find it confusing that this Jarek claims they've "never talked to BoW about AvP at all", when the first thing they do at the start of this video is head to the Prodos display at Salute 2014, where they talk (briefly) to a man who I presume is Jarek about AvP. Not about release dates, granted, but it still seems weird to claim they haven't talked at all.

I'm sure talking to anybody about release dates is one of the things Fox has reminded Prodos they are not allowed to do (along with showing minis/rules/boxes etc)

so they'd certainly have to deny leaking info to BoW even if they had mentioned something in passing

it does seem unlikely that BoW are lying and simply made up their information and pretended they had spoken to Prodos. Why would they do that? They regularly tell viewers that they are speculating about this or that, why single this project out to do the exact opposite?

I don't buy it for one second. Prodos are essentially calling BoW liars, and they've called Kickstarter liars as well for telling backers there is/has been an IP dispute when there isn't. Yet the only one of these three organisations who we have evidence of lying(or at least being frugal with the truth) is Prodos themselves.

Strange we haven't talk with them about the release date, in fact we haven't talk about AvP with them at all. Release date will be set once FOX come back to us with changes they want to make to the game.

There is probably a bit of a word game going on here. To be fair BoW did not say it was a release date nor did they say it was releasing then. They said that they are aiming to have it out, that doesn't mean an actual release time by 'legalese' standard. That means finalized approved process and starting fulfillment of KS, not actually delivered given the time frame. A release date would be for when it goes retail as release dates are not "KS fulfillment" but retail. It makes sense to make that they would shoot for Salute though because given the background, at this point, they can't actually show it until its fully approved and finalized. It is in their interest to be demoing, showing and even taking pre-orders at that point. It is also prefaced by him stating "the impression I'm getting".

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I'm sure talking to anybody about release dates is one of the things Fox has reminded Prodos they are not allowed to do (along with showing minis/rules/boxes etc)

so they'd certainly have to deny leaking info to BoW even if they had mentioned something in passing

That makes sense to me.

I've met a couple of the BoW guys, and they seem pretty sound, just very enthusiastic hobbyists, and certainly not the type to drop scurrilous made-up items into their videos and present them as fact.

Although this is not helped that as usual Jarek presents his words, no doubt because English is not his first language, with the eloquence and subtlety of a pile of bricks to the face.

No update yet then :(

Facebook:

O.k I have a question, if I have backed the KS campaign and also added pledges through the webstore, will they be sent out with the KS stuff, separately, or with the webstore stuff? And what is the plan with the retail version? Will it have a release date as soon as the pledges are fulfilled? Will it have a later release date once the plastics have been produced? Is it undecided? Can you even say at the moment?

Jarek Ever: Board game 1st to KS, then retail, the add ons to KS and Retail. When I say KS I mean all pledges from shop + KS website.

Great so as my pledge doesn't include the game i will be waiting even longer .even though the minis are done and gathering dust .

 CURNOW wrote:
Great so as my pledge doesn't include the game i will be waiting even longer .even though the minis are done and gathering dust .

A backer asked about this n Facebook - answer from Jarek:

Jarek Ever:
We will know more once we have board game out (how long it will take for Fox to check it all). We are waiting on last feedback regarding revised final materials once we have this we can move to add-ons. I can only assume it will be 2-3 months at most, as there is no written material to be reviewed

2-3 months for the add-ons? I'll believe that when I see it. They've continually underestimated the length of time it will take to do anything. Not by days, but by months. For all we know a number of add-ons aren't even complete yet. We never did see the re-working of the 3d terrain, the clear preds or the young bloods. I doubt we'll see anything of wave 2 before the summer at least.

The catchphrase adopted for another troubled kickstarter is "show, don't tell".

biggusdoggus wrote:
2-3 months for the add-ons? I'll believe that when I see it. They've continually underestimated the length of time it will take to do anything. Not by days, but by months. For all we know a number of add-ons aren't even complete yet. We never did see the re-working of the 3d terrain, the clear preds or the young bloods. I doubt we'll see anything of wave 2 before the summer at least.

Do you think we'll see Wave 1 before the summer?

I can't wait to have my stuff sitting in my house, then I can thankfully never have to deal with this company ever again.

I would expect there to be some (although admittedly minimal) 'written material' for the add ons. The cards you'll need to use them in the game, the copy for the packaging, and rule expansions required and so on.

biggusdoggus wrote:
2-3 months for the add-ons? I'll believe that when I see it. They've continually underestimated the length of time it will take to do anything. Not by days, but by months. For all we know a number of add-ons aren't even complete yet. We never did see the re-working of the 3d terrain, the clear preds or the young bloods. I doubt we'll see anything of wave 2 before the summer at least.

Errr. pretty much all the sculpts are done, the only thing that might not be is the 3d terrain, though I think it is done. The clear minis are identical sculpts to the others, just produced in a different material.

The issue seems to be more that Prodos jumped the gun and assumed it had a bit more leeway with the printed materials than they actually did, rather than an issue of them not producing the models.

Has Prodos completed delivery for the Warzone Kickstarter?

And if so, how late did it end up being?

chaos0xomega wrote:

biggusdoggus wrote:
2-3 months for the add-ons? I'll believe that when I see it. They've continually underestimated the length of time it will take to do anything. Not by days, but by months. For all we know a number of add-ons aren't even complete yet. We never did see the re-working of the 3d terrain, the clear preds or the young bloods. I doubt we'll see anything of wave 2 before the summer at least.

Errr. pretty much all the sculpts are done, the only thing that might not be is the 3d terrain, though I think it is done. The clear minis are identical sculpts to the others, just produced in a different material.

The issue seems to be more that Prodos jumped the gun and assumed it had a bit more leeway with the printed materials than they actually did, rather than an issue of them not producing the models.

I thought we later learned not all the sculpts were approved? And biggusdoggus is correct, the Young Bloods needed to be reworked along with the terrain.

Someone asked Prodos to go through each item and note Approved or Waiting Approval on their forum. I don't think it was answered yet (and doubt it will be) but the bottom line is, we really have no idea what is or is not actually approved at this point.

CptJake wrote:
Do you think we'll see Wave 1 before the summer?

If, and it's a big if, we're only waiting on fluff in the rulebook, then yes probably, but I'm not convinced. Why would they be needing to have people "proofread" (more accurately copy edit, which will create need for further play testing) the rules if those were ready to go, so it's not just the fluff that needed work. Then there's the tiles, counters and tokens - we saw them way back and they were shocking poor (unsealed edges, a finish that looked like it would fall apart as soon as you looked at it, and interconnects that mean you can only use one side of our two sided tiles at once - you can't mix and match between the two sides) - Prodos told us they were pre-production test pieces, but they didn't say that until the community had cried "wtf", so the cynic in me says they thought that was done and have had to revisit it.

So it's possible the box is still far from complete.

Then there's the retail box set. If I were Fox I'd have rejected those multi part models - there's no way they can sell a game with 28mm models made from 15-20 parts in Toys-R-Us, or frankly even your LGS. It just won't sell to all but the most hardened gamers, and they've backed the game already for resin models. So those, imho, would need to be redesigned completely to mke the models 2-3 parts at best, and preferably single part. That then gives them huge design issues and means they essentially have to start from scratch in those areas. So retail may be months and months behind, and it's more than possible that Fox won't sign off on the KS version until they see the finished retail one - it's the retail that's going to make them their money after all.

Incidentally, my guess is it's the showing of the retail models - the multi part sprues, that caused Fox to get all antsy. Nothing else we've seen has changed much over the course of production from 3d render to final product, but if Fox don't think they can sell those retail models, that will be the one thing that changes hugely. If their gripe is about showing the public one thing and then producing another (thinking that colonial marines console game here), then there's the issue.

So yeah - before the summer - I hope, but it does depend on any number of things.

Alex C wrote:I can't wait to have my stuff sitting in my house, then I can thankfully never have to deal with this company ever again.

I won't say never. If they produce a sensibly priced APC down the line I'll be all over it like flies on a cow pat, but I'll never ever give these guys my hard earned cash up front again. In future it will be over the counter payment for items in hand - retail.

CptJake wrote:I would expect there to be some (although admittedly minimal) 'written material' for the add ons. The cards you'll need to use them in the game, the copy for the packaging, and rule expansions required and so on.

I hadn't though of the cards - you're right - there's no need to put those stat cards in the box set, so they absolutely have to be packaged with each individual figure. Of course as the rules are fine tuned (see above), those stat cards may well need to be edited as well, so it's an ongoing process, and each change requires yet another approval process.

chaos0xomega wrote:Errr. pretty much all the sculpts are done, the only thing that might not be is the 3d terrain, though I think it is done. The clear minis are identical sculpts to the others, just produced in a different material.

The issue seems to be more that Prodos jumped the gun and assumed it had a bit more leeway with the printed materials than they actually did, rather than an issue of them not producing the models.

You may be right - it may just be printed materials though as CptJake points out, that's not necessarily as simple as you'd think. However, we know the 3d terrain was redone again and we never saw the final design. We know the young bloods had their sculpts reworked as there were moulding issues, and while you're right the clear preds are just clear resin copies of the normal preds (which we know have been done - young bloods aside), we also know (because I personally heard it straight from the horse's mouth) that they were having significant issues with producing the clear predators. It turns out the clear resin has different properties to the polyurethane blue/grey stuff they use for normal models - the clear sets up much harder and doesn't cope with undercut moulds anywhere near as well - when I spoke with them at the UK Expo last year I was told they were destroying moulds so quickly trying to make the clears that it was costing them more to produce each figure than they were selling them for. They did say they were trying to source a resin with less destructive properties, but we've never had visual confirmation that they succeeded and those are done.

The trouble is (for me at least) that the only thing we have to go on for any of this is Prodos' word, and unfortunately they've broken that far far too often during this campaign to allow me to believe anything they say at all right now. I don't think they've necessarily set out to fool us, to defraud or scam us, and I do believe that they themselves truly believe in their product and want to bring it to market, so in that respect they have done nothing wrong, but repeated miss-information whether by design or because of simple miss-understanding or because they've backed themselves into a legal corner with Fox and just don't have the experience, knowledge or expertise in knowing how to handle their relationship with both Fox and the backers means it's no longer possible to trust them when they use words like "soon". I won't be counting my chickens until I have a pile of resin on my paint table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One last point - they've been repeatedly asked to provide a list of all items in the game and their status - developed, approved, produced. It would not be difficult to do this without showing us a thing, without telling us anything about a release date. While I don't claim to understand the inner working of Fox, I can see no good reason why they would not provide that information to us other than because there are items that we currently think are finished that Fox has decided must be redone.

For all we know, there's been an issue with one or more of the already produced and supposedly approved sculpts - something too close to an actor's likeness, something that doesn't fit Fox's plans for the franchise moving forward, who knows.

Lady predators no longer have boobs. Imagine the nerd rage!

biggusdoggus wrote:
So it's possible the box is still far from complete.

If I were Fox I'd have rejected those multi part models - there's no way they can sell a game with 28mm models made from 15-20 parts in Toys-R-Us, or frankly even your LGS. It just won't sell to all but the most hardened gamers, and they've backed the game already for resin models. So those, imho, would need to be redesigned completely to mke the models 2-3 parts at best, and preferably single part.

If I were a betting man, I'd guess pre-assembled "restic" PVC models, average 3 parts per model. That would be a "best case" scenario, and seems to be where minis boardgames are going over the past few years. Super Dungeon Explore; Journey : Wrath of Demons; The Others : 7 Sins have all backed away from "build from many pieces" like the initial SDE and Sedition Wars releases.

But that would still be better than Zombicide monoposes. While done very well for 1-piece models, they're stll "flat" and "soft" compared to PVC.

Quite frankly, I think that Robotech's backers poisoned the well for AvP. The (completely undeserved) hue and cry over multi-part Robotech models probably made Fox gun-shy over similarly complex Aliens, Predators and Marines. Thankfully, Palladium is already locked into multi-part hard polystyrene plastics.

I am still interested to see what, if anything, ever comes of the $380,000 GBP raised on KS.

biggusdoggus wrote:
The trouble is (for me at least) that the only thing we have to go on for any of this is Prodos' word, and unfortunately they've broken that far far too often during this campaign to allow me to believe anything they say at all right now. I don't think they've necessarily set out to fool us, to defraud or scam us, and I do believe that they themselves truly believe in their product and want to bring it to market, so in that respect they have done nothing wrong, but repeated miss-information whether by design or because of simple miss-understanding or because they've backed themselves into a legal corner with Fox and just don't have the experience, knowledge or expertise in knowing how to handle their relationship with both Fox and the backers means it's no longer possible to trust them when they use words like "soon". I won't be counting my chickens until I have a pile of resin on my paint table.

One last point - they've been repeatedly asked to provide a list of all items in the game and their status - developed, approved, produced. It would not be difficult to do this without showing us a thing, without telling us anything about a release date. While I don't claim to understand the inner working of Fox, I can see no good reason why they would not provide that information to us

If we apply Occam's Razor, to reach the simplest possible explanation:

1. Prodos is out of money, out of time, and will not be able to deliver the project as promised.
2. Fox doesn't want their good name tarnished by Prodos' failure.

That would be completely consistent with everything that has happened and said by Prodos. Prodos has already been caught in multiple un-truths (i.e. "lies"), and they currently have absolutely nothing to show for the work they claim is coming "soon". I would not be surprised to find that Prodos is actually attempting to renegotiate their contract for some reduction in royalties or payment schedule, in order to free up cash to pay vendors and put something on the shelves. And Fox is probably very sympathetic, like Paulie from Goodfellas:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


That would be completely consistent with everything that has happened and said by Prodos. Prodos has already been caught in multiple un-truths (i.e. "lies"), and they currently have absolutely nothing to show for the work they claim is coming "soon". I would not be surprised to find that Prodos is actually attempting to renegotiate their contract for some reduction in royalties or payment schedule, in order to free up cash to pay vendors and put something on the shelves. And Fox is probably very sympathetic, like Paulie from Goodfellas:

Well... I think you certainly have an imagination, JohnHwang!

If you're going to apply Occam's razor to anything, and go on the simplest explanation, it's that they're probably telling the truth (or close to it) but communicating it badly, which is leaving the KS backers and fans to come up with their own ideas as to what is happening. And, in the dark corner of the room, they are now imagining the worst thing possible.

I think they are probably are inching towards a release, but the Fox IP issue has added whole extra barriers that usually games developers don't have to navigate. Possibly they told Beasts of War 'off the record' as April/May, which is where they get that figure from.

Certainly, I'm not ready to put the nails into the coffin for this KS yet!

If you're right, you'll be proven so and me wrong, "very soon".

If you think we've got it bad take a look at the dust babylon kickstarter there talking lawyers and fraud already

 dekinrie wrote:
If you think we've got it bad take a look at the dust babylon kickstarter there talking lawyers and fraud already

Indeed. Glad I stayed out of that one.

What? DUST? Battlefront?

WHAT IN THE HELL IS A GOIN' ON IN HERE?!?

Dust via BF was supposed to be a slam dunk.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If you're right, you'll be proven so and me wrong, "very soon".

Well, I'm not a betting man either! I just hope I am right..

Although you could say I have already made a bet with the funds pledged for the KS. At this point it is honestly looking as though the Heroquest KS may arrive first, which you would never have said in a million years when both projects were running.