Alien vs Predator Miniatures Game, Prodos loses license to AvP. p.266

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**angelofvengeance**

While I appreciate that I'm finally going to have my stuff for AvP, I will never back another project with Prodos' name on it.

**biggusdoggus**

CptJake wrote:
biggusdoggus wrote:

They've repeatedly given timescales that were ridiculous, and when you crunch the numbers, the current promises to both backers AND retail are equally unrealistic. It's probably no wonder that Fox are less than happy about that.

And worse, when you ask questions about it or point out what they are saying cannot be correct, they shut you down if at all possible. That (to me) clearly indicates the problem is more than just bad estimates/overoptimism. It is indicative of dishonesty and deception. THAT is and has been my major issue with them.

Indeed, but while the problems have been of their own making (if you boil it all down to a contract that has forced them to pander to Fox rather than commit to backers), I'm not sure the deception is necessarily intentional, at least not vindictively so.

Consider their current predicament. Clearly they can't tell Fox to go take a hike on the release date, especially now it's announced and the market expects. In any event they've now spent all of our money and a fair bit more getting the product done, and I suspect the delays (whoever's fault that is) have cost them even more. They are now desperate for cash flow themselves, so they really have to meet that 30th deadline and service retail. So they can't tell Fox and retail they'll be late, nor can they afford to even if there are no further financial penalties. On the flipside, they can't come to the backers and say our delivery is going to be further delayed because they have to ship to retail - even the fanboys will revolt at that one.

So I don't believe they are being vindictive in not giving us the whole picture, I believe that thanks to a build up of different issues that they felt they couldn't tell us about, they are now backed into a corner. Their only option is to keep quiet and hope people won't ask awkward questions, and that's why they react badly when people do raise those issues and point out things like their maths is wrong and they can't possibly do what they say they are going to do.

Contrast them with other kickstarters who choose to be very very open with backers. Those companies generally get a really clean ride through the process even when things don't go to plan. An informed backer is almost always a happy backer. A backer who feels he's not being given the truth is almost always going to be upset.

Somewhere along the line Prodos have lost sight of the plain fact that the 2000 backers they have right now are likely their core customers. They didn't care enough about that to protect their KS commitments in that contract, and that's ultimately been their problem throughout the process.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

angelofvengeance wrote:
While I appreciate that I'm finally going to have my stuff for AvP, I will never back another project with Prodos' name on it.

you're not alone in that.

**JoeRugby**

Alex C wrote:

Final product does look great though, and I really don't mind the duplicate tile art. Looking forward to getting mine, though I'm sure I'm last on the "random" list.

Ha and there I was thinking I was going to be last on the random list

Automatically Appended Next Post:

biggusdoggus wrote:

angelofvengeance wrote:
While I appreciate that I'm finally going to have my stuff for AvP, I will never back another project with Prodos' name on it.

you're not alone in that.

Me three.

Unless it's like something so EPIC I can't help myself with shiney syndrom (30-32mm tall marvel minis maybe.... (knight minis ones are too big etc ect)

But even with the above affliction how they have reacted at times in the campaign, especially the now only communicating through facecrap has soured them to me.

**DaveC**

It would appear the we shipped 400 units last week was incorrect if they can only process 40 per day that's only 200 per week (max 280 if they work 7 days) and don't email us about shipping ( because I don't think anything has gone out yet)

I'm glad I ordered what I wanted as Prodos won't be getting my custom again.

Prodos Games Ltd says:
Here is your Friday AvP update for June 26, 2015:
1. Shipping - please don’t send us an emails about when your pledge will be shipped, once your order is processed you will receive a confirmation email -please wait for an email, we are processing approx. 40 a day at this stage.
2. Production, we are still ramping things up, thus the numbers of how many have been shipped are lower than we had hoped. We are working closely with the manufacturer (that is 100km away from us) on the issues.
3. Please make sure that you have the pledge manager updated with all the correct information, please double check, you need the following: Real Name and Surname (no nick names) and full address. If you fail to do so it will delay your shipping.
4. If you need to change any info in the Pledge manager please log in at: calc.prodos.co.uk
5. If you are having any issues with logging in, please email Michal at michal.pawlaczyk@prodos.co.uk, please give him at least 48 hours to respond. (we are working through weekends as well)
Cheers,
Prodos Games LTD

**biggusdoggus**

what? they've been lying to us about how many they've shipped for the past 2 weeks? Who'd have thunk it?

nothing surprises me any more.

**Dark Severance**

DaveC wrote:
It would appear the we shipped 400 units last week was incorrect if they can only process 40 per day that's only 200 per week (max 280 if they work 7 days) and don't email us about shipping ( because I don't think anything has gone out yet)

Technically the amount of orders processed in a day doesn't impact how many orders could have been shipped in a previous week. Those orders could have been stockpiled and ready to go ahead of time. Given the amount of people with unboxings, playing the game and posts I've seen, 40-200 are both too small of a number as well. Now whether that 400 also includes the amount that were picked up at Salute, that is a different story. It isn't uncommon for a company to include those in the numbers of "Shipped/Delivered" when making a count.

**eddieazrael**

What's the general consensus on the game so far? Does it seem worthwhile in it's own right, or is this now mainly for the minis?

**warboss**

I don't think there are enough people who actually got their copies to have a "general consensus"... that seems to be a part of the issue regarding the rules. The few reports we have from the convention where they handed out copies is that the minis are nice and the tiles are repetitive.

**Pacific**

I've seen the minis at a couple of conventions this year and they are absolutely, drop-dead awesome. But, I'm saying that as a massive fan of both franchises, and someone who has seen the films too many times to count. If you're in the same demographic as me then I can say with good confidence that you'll feel the same way about them too.

As for the gameplay I'm afraid I don't know much about it. Really, I'm hoping for something that has at least a semblance of gameplay, has had enough playtesting to ensure it's more or less a level playing field for each faction in the missions. Prodos aren't newbies to the industry so I've got some confidence that the game will be playable*

*(I hope!!)

**ced1106**

Nothing worth reading on BGG, either.

Some pics, tho: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/149896/aliens-vs-predator-hunt-begins

Oh, and regarding the TEAL (and orange) board, see #4 : http://www.cracked.com/article_18664_5-annoying-trends-that-make-every-movie-look-same.html

"This screenshot from the excellent color theory and exploration site, kuler, shows what happens when you apply complementary color theory to flesh tones. You see, flesh tones exist mostly in the orange range and when you look to the opposite end of the color wheel from that, where does one land? Why looky here, we have our old friend Mr. Teal. And anyone who has ever taken color theory 101 knows that if you take two complementary colors and put them next to each other, they will "pop", and sometimes even vibrate. So, since people (flesh-tones) exist in almost every frame of every movie ever made, what could be better than applying complementary color theory to make people seem to "pop" from the background. I mean, people are really important, aren't they?"

No people on the game board and they use nothing but TEAL...

http://theabyssgazes.blogspot.com/2010/03/teal-and-orange-hollywood-please-stop.html

**CptJake**

A guy reported on BGG that he picked up a copy at his FLGS. I think he was from Germany.

**richred_uk**

Wayland have posted photo's of their stock that they are starting to ship today on their Facebook page.

On the AvP FB page, unhappiness was expressed, Jarek shrugged his shoulders. These things have happened before and they will happen again. Soon.

**warboss**

I guess we know what Prodos meant about shipping 400 copies then... to retail apparently.

I guess keeping one promise is better than keeping none, right?

**Nostromodamus**

Disappointing if they are shipping to retailers before fulfilling backer orders. I realize they probably need the revenue stream but it's sad that they forget their existing commitments. Still waiting on my final wave of Wolsung because Prodos "forgot" to do some work for Micro Art Studios (their words, not mine).

I'll just be glad when I have everything in hand and can enjoy the great game and minis instead of worrying about fulfillment.

**JoeRugby**

That is disappointing.

Now to see if I get my copy before wave 2 is approved

**Pacific**

Alex C wrote:
Disappointing if they are shipping to retailers before fulfilling backer orders. I realize they probably need the revenue stream but it's sad that they forget their existing commitments. Still waiting on my final wave of Wolsung because Prodos "forgot" to do some work for Micro Art Studios (their words, not mine).

I'll just be glad when I have everything in hand and can enjoy the great game and minis instead of worrying about fulfillment.

Me too!

It will be nice to not keep coming back to this thread, it's fething terrible !

**CptJake**

Prodos strikes again?

A bunch of posts wee deleted from a BGG thread.

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/19646492#19646492

Wonder how/why that happened?

**carlos13th**

I have to admit what I have seen of how this kickstarter was handled would make me only purchase something from them if it was in my hands at a store.

**DaveC**

CptJake wrote:
Prodos strikes again?

A bunch of posts wee deleted from a BGG thread.

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/19646492#19646492

Wonder how/why that happened?

The OP is asking about the rules in the rules discussion sub forum so I guess the rest was deemed off topic and deleted nothing more than that I doubt Prodos had any hand in it.

It's disappointing to see just how much stock went to retailers over backers and I have still yet to see anyone confirm they got either a shipping notification or delivery

**Rick_1138**

Good times, had a mild troll of Wayland FB picture showing that.

Great to see Prodos just not giving a fig now, i doubt i will ever see the extra stuff we got as backers, let alone the stuff i have paid for and asked about in the pledge manager, i forsee a retail box being thrown my way, and the rest of the stuff will just die quietly, and Prodos Trouser the extra £40 on top.

Happy Days

**biggusdoggus**

carlos13th wrote:I have to admit what I have seen of how this kickstarter was handled would make me only purchase something from them if it was in my hands at a store.

Very much my stance. Prodos have said they'll never do KS again, but even if they changed their mind and came up with the best product ever, I'd still wait until I could pick it directly off a shelf.

Rick_1138 wrote:Good times, had a mild troll of Wayland FB picture showing that.

Great to see Prodos just not giving a fig now, i doubt i will ever see the extra stuff we got as backers, let alone the stuff i have paid for and asked about in the pledge manager, i forsee a retail box being thrown my way, and the rest of the stuff will just die quietly, and Prodos Trouser the extra £40 on top.

Happy Days

For all the troubles so far, I don't think that's likely to happen. We know for certain that most if not all the models required to fulfil KS backer pledges in wave 2 have been made - we've seen the piles of crates of them.

**DaveC**

Well someone has finally reported receiving their KS shipment.

http://forum.prodosgames.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2132&sid=396e9a2a7f278509ad4921ae5472fa41

**Pacific**

There were a few people commenting on FB of having shipping notifications.

So it does sound as though it has started at least!

**eddieazrael**

Not had a notification from my FLGS of them having received their retail pre-orders yet, but I'm pleased for the KS backers who get product in their hands before me - do unto others etc etc.

**TheSecretSquig**

From PRODOS Forum (linked in an above post)..........

"Am I the only one that got my copy of the game last friday? I wasn't a Kickstarter backer and I do live in Poland..."

This irks me somewhat. PRODOS stated that all KS backers would recieve their copies before anyone else.

**CptJake**

TheSecretSquig wrote:
From PRODOS Forum (linked in an above post)..........

"Am I the only one that got my copy of the game last friday? I wasn't a Kickstarter backer and I do live in Poland..."

This irks me somewhat. PRODOS stated that all KS backers would recieve their copies before anyone else.

Once Prodos made the decision to sell the "KS Only Resin Version" via retail, I assumed they would get it to retail even as they were shipping KS copies. Not that I was happy when they did so, I just saw it coming. I figured they had one or more motivating factors (were contractually bound to begin sales by some date/needed the cash flow/wanted to gin up excitement and sales to a new set of customers and so on). I also suspect from their perspective it is a ton easier to send 50 or so copies to a single address than to send them out to 50 different addresses.

**Panic**

Yeah,
Once bitten, twice shy.

Prodos and G&G are on my naughty list. Both are late and lied excessively.

By comparison Grindhouse is extraordinarily late with incurrsion but I have nothing but praise for how they have dealt with the projects speed bumps, I will buy pretty much every thing they release in the future.
Panic...

**DaveC**

So some (may be a lot) backers probably won't see theirs until the end of July a full month after retail and why has it only now occurred to them that they got the logistics wrong this isn't their first KS. I guess it now suits them to string out the shipping in the hope of shipping everything in one go.

I notice this update didn't go to facebook (yet) - they are starting to get some disgruntled posts there in the last day or two.

Prodos Games Ltd says:

Here is your AvP update for Friday July 3, 2015

We are in talks with another Board Game supplier to increase manufacturing output of AvP. Our current manufacturer is excellent and of stellar quality, but the output is simply too low.

We are talking with 2 UK based companies to partner with to help aid us with shipping to backers. We simply do not have the capacity in our own warehouse to process at the rate we feel is required to complete shipment on our own. The UK was our largest market and we are confident we could cut down shipping time considerably by agreeing to one of these companies, even if the cost is considerably higher than doing it ourselves.

Please be aware that there are some further delays shipping to UK recipients due to the Calais strike, we apologise for this matter which is out of our control but we are on the phone the courier daily to find out more news, just know that they are coming. This has allegedly ended today, though we are naturally quite cynical after a week of troubles. We have asked the courier if they can take an alternative route, but it seems they cannot (we believe this is due to an agreement they have with this particular ferry port, but we may be wrong). If you have a tracking number from us and the parcel was last scanned in the Netherlands, this is why.

In any case, we expect to have all packages sent to EU backers by the end of the month as long as we agree to terms with a shipping partner.

We have shipped retail copies of AvP to shops due to contractual obligations. We are not taking any more retail orders for AvP until we catch up on Kickstarter backer shipments. We also understand this is hard to swallow, but we want to ensure you that this decision was not made with malice or greed in mind.

USA Backers can pick up their copies of AvP at GenCon Indy at the end of July. More information regarding this will be coming in the next week or so as we confirm some things here on our end.

It is very important to note that we will not be selling AvP at Gencon. Even if there are copies left, they will be used to fulfil Kickstarter pledges which have not, by that stage, been collected or shipped. The few US backers that have received shipping notifications were a lucky anomaly caused by the Pledge Manager update for shipping notifications.

There is movement on the Wave two Add-ons we should have all the packaging approved very soon. If we get approval next week we will be able to start shipping them within 30 days. This means that some backers may receive almost all of their KS rewards in one shipment. The following items are still early along in the approval process and will take a bit longer: Predator Young Bloods, Resin Terrain and the Wargames rulebook. It should also be noted that our release schedule to retailers of the add-ons will be staggered, whereas Kickstarter backers will receive them in one batch.

We would like the tone of this message to be a massive thank you for your patience and an equally massive apology for the delay. We'd like to end this update in the hope that you guys are aware we are trying to pull out all the stops to make sure you are all happy.

**warboss**

DaveC wrote:

Please be aware that there are some further delays shipping to UK recipients due to the Calais strike, we apologise for this matter which is out of our control but we are on the phone the courier daily to find out more news, just know that they are coming. This has allegedly ended today, though we are naturally quite cynical after a week of troubles. We have asked the courier if they can take an alternative route, but it seems they cannot (we believe this is due to an agreement they have with this particular ferry port, but we may be wrong). If you have a tracking number from us and the parcel was last scanned in the Netherlands, this is why.

In any case, we expect to have all packages sent to EU backers by the end of the month as long as we agree to terms with a shipping partner.

We have shipped retail copies of AvP to shops due to contractual obligations. We are not taking any more retail orders for AvP until we catch up on Kickstarter backer shipments. We also understand this is hard to swallow, but we want to ensure you that this decision was not made with malice or greed in mind.

Was the decision to mislead backers about shipping KS boxes in the quantities you claimed made with malice or greed, Prodos? Also, don't you have contractual obligations that PRE-DATE your retail ones with KS backers that you chose to ignore? The above combined with the shipping strike makes this KS really seem like they're trying to follow the Palladium crowdfunding model.

**CptJake**

"We retail copies of AvP to shops due to contractual obligations. We are not taking any more retail orders for AvP until we catch up on Kickstarter backer shipments. We also understand this is hard to swallow, but we want to ensure you that this decision was not made with malice or greed in mind"

Guess that gun to their had forcing them into a contract like that was a rough ordeal to go through. I'm sure the prospect of cash flow never entered into the equation.