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 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Gallahad wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

Dread Master wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:

Dread Master wrote:
Two less burly chicks would have been ideal. Crone, Axe Chick and sword and shield chick are tolerable, but all are grotesque.

In my opinion, they are exactly as they should be. If you want to play Warcry with murderous, but sexy, lingerie models the game does have rules for Daughter of Khaine.

Comment was on warband composition, primarily, aesthetics secondarily. Never said I wanted my toy soldiers to be “sexy”. Not what I’m looking for in my dollies. I’d be perfectly content if the only female was the crone. The posing of the two females I mentioned is cool, the other two less so, all of them are repulsive,ie, they don’t have to be attractive. Not going to stop me from picking it up, but also not something I wanted in a Darkoath warband. Would have preferred composition that was more grounded, as that many females just means Darkoath must get their teeth handed to them a lot.

...alright. Why?

Some people prefer fantasy where the dimorphic evolution of the sexes (as observed in the real world) is still a "law of nature" in force.

Some people prefer fantasy worlds unchained from evolution, physics etc.

If the Darkoath warband as presented fought Darkoath that were 100% male in the real world the all male squad would wreck the mixed squad. There is a reason combat sports and strength sports don't have mixed divisions. Same thing for fencing. In a fantasy world only the dice can decide.

Again, some people prefer certain realities to hold in fantasy and others don't.

Long winded way of saying "I don't want girls in my toys"

Short winded way of saying you want to play with girl toys.

Two can play the asinine summary game.

 Gallahad wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Gallahad wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

Dread Master wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:

Dread Master wrote:
Two less burly chicks would have been ideal. Crone, Axe Chick and sword and shield chick are tolerable, but all are grotesque.

In my opinion, they are exactly as they should be. If you want to play Warcry with murderous, but sexy, lingerie models the game does have rules for Daughter of Khaine.

Comment was on warband composition, primarily, aesthetics secondarily. Never said I wanted my toy soldiers to be “sexy”. Not what I’m looking for in my dollies. I’d be perfectly content if the only female was the crone. The posing of the two females I mentioned is cool, the other two less so, all of them are repulsive,ie, they don’t have to be attractive. Not going to stop me from picking it up, but also not something I wanted in a Darkoath warband. Would have preferred composition that was more grounded, as that many females just means Darkoath must get their teeth handed to them a lot.

...alright. Why?

Some people prefer fantasy where the dimorphic evolution of the sexes (as observed in the real world) is still a "law of nature" in force.

Some people prefer fantasy worlds unchained from evolution, physics etc.

If the Darkoath warband as presented fought Darkoath that were 100% male in the real world the all male squad would wreck the mixed squad. There is a reason combat sports and strength sports don't have mixed divisions. Same thing for fencing. In a fantasy world only the dice can decide.

Again, some people prefer certain realities to hold in fantasy and others don't.

Long winded way of saying "I don't want girls in my toys"

Short winded way of saying you want to play with girl toys.

Two can play the asinine summary game.

Indeed, but you're the only one playing "my full post is asinine" game.

You're whole little diatribe was just ... .such a sadly stereotypical neckbeard display....

Oh, and FYI, hit ignore on ya, as it's quite evident you have nothing worthwhile to contribute.

 Gallahad wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Gallahad wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

Dread Master wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:

Dread Master wrote:
Two less burly chicks would have been ideal. Crone, Axe Chick and sword and shield chick are tolerable, but all are grotesque.

In my opinion, they are exactly as they should be. If you want to play Warcry with murderous, but sexy, lingerie models the game does have rules for Daughter of Khaine.

Comment was on warband composition, primarily, aesthetics secondarily. Never said I wanted my toy soldiers to be “sexy”. Not what I’m looking for in my dollies. I’d be perfectly content if the only female was the crone. The posing of the two females I mentioned is cool, the other two less so, all of them are repulsive,ie, they don’t have to be attractive. Not going to stop me from picking it up, but also not something I wanted in a Darkoath warband. Would have preferred composition that was more grounded, as that many females just means Darkoath must get their teeth handed to them a lot.

...alright. Why?

Some people prefer fantasy where the dimorphic evolution of the sexes (as observed in the real world) is still a "law of nature" in force.

Some people prefer fantasy worlds unchained from evolution, physics etc.

If the Darkoath warband as presented fought Darkoath that were 100% male in the real world the all male squad would wreck the mixed squad. There is a reason combat sports and strength sports don't have mixed divisions. Same thing for fencing. In a fantasy world only the dice can decide.

Again, some people prefer certain realities to hold in fantasy and others don't.

Long winded way of saying "I don't want girls in my toys"

Short winded way of saying you want to play with girl toys.

Two can play the asinine summary game.

Damn straight. I love having a non-sausage fest in my games. At least i'm honest about it sunshine

 Gallahad wrote:
Some people prefer fantasy where the dimorphic evolution of the sexes (as observed in the real world) is still a "law of nature" in force.

Some people prefer fantasy worlds unchained from evolution, physics etc.

If the Darkoath warband as presented fought Darkoath that were 100% male in the real world the all male squad would wreck the mixed squad. There is a reason combat sports and strength sports don't have mixed divisions. Same thing for fencing. In a fantasy world only the dice can decide.

Again, some people prefer certain realities to hold in fantasy and others don't.

Sexual dimorphism is funny, because as many times as not, the female of the species is bigger and tougher than the male. It's funny that someone could think it's a "law of nature" looking at... well, nature.

Also, "if the Darkoath warband as presented fought Darkoath that were 100% male in the real world"... as presented, the darkoath females are exactly as buff and tough as the male and there are no "real world" darkoath, so... wouldn't change one bit?

Interesting concept, nonetheless.

Seems pretty evident that he was referring only to humans and not.other species

 streetsamurai wrote:
Seems pretty evident that he was referring only to humans and not.other species

And even between humans or other anthropoids, it's not a law set in stone. None of the humans I know are darkoath either

Well, maybe bodybuilders.

Pretty mixed bag.

The Darkoath hag is fantastic. The leader, shield guy and not-Conan are great. The axe and shield chick looks very nice too at that angle. But the other three female models seem to have freakishly small heads (seriously, it's like they did their hair at a headhunter beauty parlour or something), with bizarrely popped neck muscle volumes and those chest wraps look like they're made out of two inch thick industrial rubber.

The Spiders... I just don't think the head legs work. The two models that have spikes-and-web halos look fine tho, so maybe the kit can be salvaged.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Albertorius wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
Seems pretty evident that he was referring only to humans and not.other species

And even between humans or other anthropoids, it's not a law set in stone. None of the humans I know are darkoath either

Well, maybe bodybuilders.

Yes it is. There's no race/ethnicity where male are not bigger and stronger in average than women. Sexual dimorphism doesnt means that a male will always be bigger than a female (or vice versa) but that in average they will be.

Darkoath weapon options - the Slaughterborn appears to have a great axe and not-conan has a flail

I'm taller than every woman I've ever met. That's thousands, a significant proportion of them probably wearing some sort of heel. And I'm not even freakishly tall. I think it's a pretty well documented phenomenon in humans. You can't really invalidate a law with a fringe exception and still be taken as genuine.

 Gallahad wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

Dread Master wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:

Dread Master wrote:
Two less burly chicks would have been ideal. Crone, Axe Chick and sword and shield chick are tolerable, but all are grotesque.

In my opinion, they are exactly as they should be. If you want to play Warcry with murderous, but sexy, lingerie models the game does have rules for Daughter of Khaine.

Comment was on warband composition, primarily, aesthetics secondarily. Never said I wanted my toy soldiers to be “sexy”. Not what I’m looking for in my dollies. I’d be perfectly content if the only female was the crone. The posing of the two females I mentioned is cool, the other two less so, all of them are repulsive,ie, they don’t have to be attractive. Not going to stop me from picking it up, but also not something I wanted in a Darkoath warband. Would have preferred composition that was more grounded, as that many females just means Darkoath must get their teeth handed to them a lot.

...alright. Why?

Some people prefer fantasy where the dimorphic evolution of the sexes (as observed in the real world) is still a "law of nature" in force.

Some people prefer fantasy worlds unchained from evolution, physics etc.

If the Darkoath warband as presented fought Darkoath that were 100% male in the real world the all male squad would wreck the mixed squad. There is a reason combat sports and strength sports don't have mixed divisions. Same thing for fencing. In a fantasy world only the dice can decide.

Again, some people prefer certain realities to hold in fantasy and others don't.

I thought this was pretty even handed, and well explained, and not particularly inflammatory on a topic that Is pretty trumped up. I think the only real point of contention here is that there is a point of contention, and not ideological conformity around the gender talking point.

 streetsamurai wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
Seems pretty evident that he was referring only to humans and not.other species

And even between humans or other anthropoids, it's not a law set in stone. None of the humans I know are darkoath either

Well, maybe bodybuilders.

Yes it is. There's no race/ethnicity where male are not bigger and stronger in average than women. Sexual dimorphism doesnt means that a male will always be bigger than a female (or vice versa) but that in average they will be

Yes, but not really. In most human ethnic groups the average difference is about 15%, but in some is as low as 8%, which given the individual differences, is meaningfunnly non-existent. And then you have outliers like pygmyes and the like, or precursos as authrolophitecus where there were no actual differences.

Anyways, as unlike Earth humans, darkoath live inside magical planes and we don't actually know anything about them other than what's presented... I feel like the point is moot. So far we know that rules wise the differences are non important.

JWBS wrote:
I'm taller than every woman I've ever met. That's thousands, a significant proportion of them probably wearing some sort of heel. And I'm not even freakishly tall. I think it's a pretty well documented phenomenon in humans. You can't really invalidate a law with a fringe exception and still be taken as genuine.

I’m interested to know how many of the women you’ve ever met were maniacal servants of dark gods who’d sold their souls in exchange for martial power?

JWBS wrote:
I'm taller than every woman I've ever met. That's thousands, a significant proportion of them probably wearing some sort of heel. And I'm not even freakishly tall. I think it's a pretty well documented phenomenon in humans. You can't really invalidate a law with a fringe exception and still be taken as genuine.

And did I do that?

For the record, I'm 1'8m tall miself, and I've known plenty women taller than me, even though its rarer than the other way around. I've also known plenty women that could kick my ass.

Dread Master wrote:

 Gallahad wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

Dread Master wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:

Dread Master wrote:
Two less burly chicks would have been ideal. Crone, Axe Chick and sword and shield chick are tolerable, but all are grotesque.

In my opinion, they are exactly as they should be. If you want to play Warcry with murderous, but sexy, lingerie models the game does have rules for Daughter of Khaine.

Comment was on warband composition, primarily, aesthetics secondarily. Never said I wanted my toy soldiers to be “sexy”. Not what I’m looking for in my dollies. I’d be perfectly content if the only female was the crone. The posing of the two females I mentioned is cool, the other two less so, all of them are repulsive,ie, they don’t have to be attractive. Not going to stop me from picking it up, but also not something I wanted in a Darkoath warband. Would have preferred composition that was more grounded, as that many females just means Darkoath must get their teeth handed to them a lot.

...alright. Why?

Some people prefer fantasy where the dimorphic evolution of the sexes (as observed in the real world) is still a "law of nature" in force.

Some people prefer fantasy worlds unchained from evolution, physics etc.

If the Darkoath warband as presented fought Darkoath that were 100% male in the real world the all male squad would wreck the mixed squad. There is a reason combat sports and strength sports don't have mixed divisions. Same thing for fencing. In a fantasy world only the dice can decide.

Again, some people prefer certain realities to hold in fantasy and others don't.

I thought this was pretty even handed, and well explained, and not particularly inflammatory on a topic that Is pretty trumped up. I think the only real point of contention here is that there is a point of contention, and not ideological conformity around the gender talking point.

You can't claim to be be a proper 2019 guy though unless you're willing to try to extrapolate it into something that embarrasses all involved (and bystanders too).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Albertorius wrote:

JWBS wrote:
I'm taller than every woman I've ever met. That's thousands, a significant proportion of them probably wearing some sort of heel. And I'm not even freakishly tall. I think it's a pretty well documented phenomenon in humans. You can't really invalidate a law with a fringe exception and still be taken as genuine.

And did I do that?

Seemed pretty clear you were arguing against the proposition. If you weren't then really idk what's going on in this part of the thread

I'm buying multiple boxes for the terrain alone. That pumpjack is phenomenal.

JWBS wrote:
I'm taller than every woman I've ever met. That's thousands, a significant proportion of them probably wearing some sort of heel. And I'm not even freakishly tall. I think it's a pretty well documented phenomenon in humans. You can't really invalidate a law with a fringe exception and still be taken as genuine.

I'm 6'0" and I have easily met over a hundred women in my 32 years who stand taller than myself without heels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Soundtheory wrote:

 Gallahad wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Gallahad wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

Dread Master wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:

Dread Master wrote:
Two less burly chicks would have been ideal. Crone, Axe Chick and sword and shield chick are tolerable, but all are grotesque.

In my opinion, they are exactly as they should be. If you want to play Warcry with murderous, but sexy, lingerie models the game does have rules for Daughter of Khaine.

Comment was on warband composition, primarily, aesthetics secondarily. Never said I wanted my toy soldiers to be “sexy”. Not what I’m looking for in my dollies. I’d be perfectly content if the only female was the crone. The posing of the two females I mentioned is cool, the other two less so, all of them are repulsive,ie, they don’t have to be attractive. Not going to stop me from picking it up, but also not something I wanted in a Darkoath warband. Would have preferred composition that was more grounded, as that many females just means Darkoath must get their teeth handed to them a lot.

...alright. Why?

Some people prefer fantasy where the dimorphic evolution of the sexes (as observed in the real world) is still a "law of nature" in force.

Some people prefer fantasy worlds unchained from evolution, physics etc.

If the Darkoath warband as presented fought Darkoath that were 100% male in the real world the all male squad would wreck the mixed squad. There is a reason combat sports and strength sports don't have mixed divisions. Same thing for fencing. In a fantasy world only the dice can decide.

Again, some people prefer certain realities to hold in fantasy and others don't.

Long winded way of saying "I don't want girls in my toys"

Short winded way of saying you want to play with girl toys.

Two can play the asinine summary game.

Indeed, but you're the only one playing "my full post is asinine" game.

You're whole little diatribe was just ... .such a sadly stereotypical neckbeard display....

Oh, and FYI, hit ignore on ya, as it's quite evident you have nothing worthwhile to contribute.

Amen.

JWBS wrote:
Seemed pretty clear you were arguing against the proposition. If you weren't then really idk what's going on in this part of the thread

I was specifically arguing against the fact that sexual dimorphism, specifically one where the male of the species is bigger and stronger than the female, is a "law of nature", because it's very much not.

It is a "law of nature" in the homo species, and then at about an average of 15%, which means that individual variance will usually be more important than that average.

 DaveC wrote:
Darkoath weapon options - the Slaughterborn appears to have a great axe and not-conan has a flail

Thanks for posting this! I'm always curious when they give otherwise mono-build models options

It is fantasy. Fantasy is supposed to be fun. HOWEVER fantasy CAN be stretched too far. I liek the idea of hyper muscled female warriors fighting alongside hyper muscled male warriors in a magically infused hellscape with multi armed mutants. That is fun. BUT as a designer I know that if EVERYONE is hyper muscled the actual effect is a reduction of the impact of strength in the setting in general. I think the dark oath could have massively benefitted from a more lithe female or two and maybe an obese or super lean male or two as well.

Galahad is correct though. put into a pit and told to fight to the death 9 times out of 10 the man will be the one climbing out when all is said and done. and 7 times out of 10 it won't be much more than a total slaughter. if you want examples they are easy to find. Strength and weight ARE both advantages unto themselves. if you put a heavy fighter in the ring with a lighter fighter the heavier guy will demolish the lighter guy 6 times out of 10 if there heavier guy is slightly less skilled than the lighter guy. If the heavier guy is equally as skilled he will win 8 times out of 10, if he is more skilled 10 out of 10. if you have never actually fought someone before it is very difficult to imagine what it is like to be hit with the intention to seriously injure. Much less to be hit that way repeatedly. Strength and weight are HUGE factors in the projection of force.

 Albertorius wrote:

JWBS wrote:
Seemed pretty clear you were arguing against the proposition. If you weren't then really idk what's going on in this part of the thread

I was specifically arguing against the fact that sexual dimorphism, specifically one where the male of the species is bigger and stronger than the female, is a "law of nature", because it's very much not.

It is a "law of nature" in the homo species, and then at about an average of 15%, which means that individual variance will usually be more important than that average.

I don't think anybody said this in this thread.

And no, there is a size difference between male and female pigmies

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms8672

But yes, at the end of the day, it's a fantasy setting, and they can do whatever they want. Doesn't means that.we have.to like it (and to be clear, im fairly indifferent to minis being male or female, as long as they are cool.and well sculpted. Unfortunately, i find the female minis in that warbamd to be pretty bad, bar the hag)

So uhhhh. Warcry... pretty excited for this release and Tome Of Champions 2021. The last Tome Of Champions is what made me fall in love with the game.

Hoping they can meet or exceed the last one.

hahahaha no kidding. Warcry is awesome and defintieyl has me hooked. Though as much as i liked several of the Dark Oath pieces the Brood pieces sort of let me down I was really hoping to see some spider worshipping dark elves.

Just to clarify ToC 2021 is an assumption based on prior years its not yet confirmed

 tre manor wrote:
hahahaha no kidding. Warcry is awesome and defintieyl has me hooked. Though as much as i liked several of the Dark Oath pieces the Brood pieces sort of let me down I was really hoping to see some spider worshipping dark elves.

Yeah, im a bit dissapointed in the spidermans. I don't hate them, but i was expecting to like them a lot more than i do. Maybe another paintjob would change.my.mind.

Quick question for the warcry players, is the game fun? Ive fast read the rules a long time ago, and they seems pretty bland.

 tre manor wrote:
It is fantasy. Fantasy is supposed to be fun. HOWEVER fantasy CAN be stretched too far. I liek the idea of hyper muscled female warriors fighting alongside hyper muscled male warriors in a magically infused hellscape with multi armed mutants. That is fun. BUT as a designer I know that if EVERYONE is hyper muscled the actual effect is a reduction of the impact of strength in the setting in general. I think the dark oath could have massively benefitted from a more lithe female or two and maybe an obese or super lean male or two as well.

Galahad is correct though. put into a pit and told to fight to the death 9 times out of 10 the man will be the one climbing out when all is said and done. and 7 times out of 10 it won't be much more than a total slaughter. if you want examples they are easy to find. Strength and weight ARE both advantages unto themselves. if you put a heavy fighter in the ring with a lighter fighter the heavier guy will demolish the lighter guy 6 times out of 10 if there heavier guy is slightly less skilled than the lighter guy. If the heavier guy is equally as skilled he will win 8 times out of 10, if he is more skilled 10 out of 10. if you have never actually fought someone before it is very difficult to imagine what it is like to be hit with the intention to seriously injure. Much less to be hit that way repeatedly. Strength and weight are HUGE factors in the projection of force.

Well said. And love your work man.

 tre manor wrote:
It is fantasy. Fantasy is supposed to be fun. HOWEVER fantasy CAN be stretched too far. I liek the idea of hyper muscled female warriors fighting alongside hyper muscled male warriors in a magically infused hellscape with multi armed mutants. That is fun. BUT as a designer I know that if EVERYONE is hyper muscled the actual effect is a reduction of the impact of strength in the setting in general. I think the dark oath could have massively benefitted from a more lithe female or two and maybe an obese or super lean male or two as well.

That’s a fair point, but you’re looking at a single faction. It’s really not the case that everyone in the setting is hyper muscled. Several of the other warbands feature much more lithe warriors, both male and female. If it was the case that every female Warcry miniature was a big strapping bodybuilder type, I’d also be bemoaning the lack of diversity, but it’s just not.

 streetsamurai wrote:
Quick question for the warcry players, is the game fun? Ive fast read the rules a long time ago, and they seems pretty bland.

The core rules are mechanically sound, but the peripherals are indeed a bit bland. It's a bit like Necromunda, but with all the fun of gear, experience, injuries and holdings stripped down into the most bare bones version possible.

chaos0xomega wrote:

JWBS wrote:
I'm taller than every woman I've ever met. That's thousands, a significant proportion of them probably wearing some sort of heel. And I'm not even freakishly tall. I think it's a pretty well documented phenomenon in humans. You can't really invalidate a law with a fringe exception and still be taken as genuine.

I'm 6'0" and I have easily met over a hundred women in my 32 years who stand taller than myself without heels.

I'm a bit over 6'1, but even so that seems like a lie tbh, quick google search says that only 1% of American women are 6+. Maybe you're a basketball coach or something idk, and perhaps you check their feet despite that it's a fairly mundane occourance for you (I only said 'probably in heels' because I know that many women do in fact wear heels, I don't often look tbh) Whatever, obviously doesn't matter, fact remains that this aspect of sexual dimorphism in humans isn't disputed.

Interesting aside, I just asked my buddy’s gf, who knows very little about wargaming at all, but loves fantasy and RP, what she thought of the female Darkoath, and her reaction was “Eeeew, those are women???” I was like, yeah, that was about my reaction too.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
Quick question for the warcry players, is the game fun? Ive fast read the rules a long time ago, and they seems pretty bland.

The core rules are mechanically sound, but the peripherals are indeed a bit bland. It's a bit like Necromunda, but with all the fun of gear, experience, injuries and holdings stripped down into the most bare bones version possible.

Agreed. It’s a simpler game than Necromunda. Some people will regard that as a plus, others as a minus. I’d say the rules are tighter and it’s not as expensive to get started with. I think if you like the models, it’s worth buying a warband to tryout the game. If you don’t like the models, there’s not enough to the game to make you like it despite that.