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I think the dollar amount raised for Warcaster is less telling than the number of backers, which was 2,330.
If we assume that they get enough late pledges to bring the total up to 3,000 backers/players, that’s still an abysmally low number of players worldwide. Especially for a company of PP’s size, which employs around 30 people. Half a million is probably just enough to keep the lights on with that many staff.

Even if all of those players were contained within the US alone, that’s not a very large, nor robust player base. Nor is it a very large player base to keep a company as large as PP making the margins they need.

If we assume that 75% of those backing the game stay with it and keep playing and buying stuff with each new KS, they are still going to experience diminishing returns.
I don’t see Warcaster as being the saviour for PP that some seem to think it’s going to be.
Not even 2500 backers worldwide translates into less than 2000 that will continue to collect and play. While that’s enough to support a small, 5 person operation (maybe), it’s certainly not very sustainable.

I have my doubts we will see PP bounce back to what they were before, and unless they do something drastic, or at retail Warcaster makes serious bank, I don’t see them being able to ride it out more than a few more years.
I want them to survive of course. They make the best paint.

I think some of those backers were retailers.

Nurglitch wrote:
I think some of those backers were retailers.

85 pledges were retailers.
Like I said, even with those retail pledges, you’re looking at a maximum of 3000 players.
With a staff of 30 people, they need to be making around $2 million a year to support that.
And that’s a bare minimum. If they want to continue to expand the line, and keep WM/H going, that’s barely enough to keep themselves on life support. I ran a business for several years, and had 25 staff, most of which were minimum wage workers. $1 million a year was enough to keep the business running, but it wasn’t enough to expand it beyond the single location. My margins were 28-35%, which didn’t translate to expanding the business at all. And with PP having slimmer margins than that (and they do) is what I find most concerning about their current level of popularity. If it was a smaller company with much smaller staff, I wouldn’t be very worried.

 Ghool wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
I think some of those backers were retailers.

85 pledges were retailers.
Like I said, even with those retail pledges, you’re looking at a maximum of 3000 players.

Those two facts alone are "interesting". Given that PP has a worldwide player base, Americas, UK/Europe, Asia and Pacific, only 85 retailers in the world felt that they could back the KS. I admit to knowing NOTHING about retail. So it could be that many stores are just waiting for general release to get stuff on their shelves. Iv never heard of a games store there in the UK backing a KS. But still that is quite a shallow level of market penetration (or whatever it called).

3000 KS backers worldwide is also quite a small number. Nobody in our area or meta is remotely interested in it. But tbf its probably not aimed at us.

But PP set the limits of the KS themselves and had a min level to make it viable which thy exceeded many times over. So we have to assume that PP have got what they want out of the KS and it gives them a good basis move forward alongside all the RiotQuest, MonPoc and WM/H stuff they are also producing. But with the Covid19 lock-down putting a halt to things like CID for now and with GW launching 9th Ed 40K with full fanfare despite the lock-down you can't but help wonder how much momentum market PP may have lost over this time.

 Ghool wrote:

85 pledges were retailers.
Like I said, even with those retail pledges, you’re looking at a maximum of 3000 players.
With a staff of 30 people, they need to be making around $2 million a year to support that.
And that’s a bare minimum. If they want to continue to expand the line, and keep WM/H going, that’s barely enough to keep themselves on life support. I ran a business for several years, and had 25 staff, most of which were minimum wage workers. $1 million a year was enough to keep the business running, but it wasn’t enough to expand it beyond the single location. My margins were 28-35%, which didn’t translate to expanding the business at all. And with PP having slimmer margins than that (and they do) is what I find most concerning about their current level of popularity. If it was a smaller company with much smaller staff, I wouldn’t be very worried.

I admit complete ignorance in the financial aspects of running a company, but PP currently has three tentpole product lines (MonPoc, RiotQuest, and WMH) and are currently preparing to expand to a fourth. They must have enough confidence that they can support all four games, whether it is through expanding the company or just better management of their current capabilities. I'm not sure if they want to grow larger as a company, or need to. I'm less worried about Warcaster than I am about COVID-19 shutting down gaming clubs and retail - the latter was a significant and unplanned complication, while the former was in the works for years.

Also, using the Kickstarter numbers as the equivalent of a pre-order campaign seems a bit wrong. There's a lot of reasons why someone might choose not to use Kickstarter. I won't use Kickstarter, but I'm planning on getting Warcaster when it hits retail. It's probably fair to assume that Warcaster will follow the early adopter curve - the 3000 kickstarters would be the tiny start to the bell curve, with the majority of players not coming until there is a presence for the game. 3000 early adopters is more than enough to begin the process of community building, setting up facilities like Warmachine University, providing player guidance and support, and generating a presence at gaming clubs - the things necessary for a miniature game to move past the early adopter phase. I'd be surprised if any miniature game (not by GW) has much more than 3000 early adopters. And PP has said that RiotQuest was very successful, despite there appearing to be absolutely no presence for the game (I assume its primary community is limited to a private Facebook group, which is worthless and self defeating).

The main problem would be if the Warcaster community becomes too tournament-focused, like Warmachine did. Elitism is very offputting to new players, and without new players, you don't have a game.

A preorder Kickstarter is a tried and true way to gauge player interest - if your pre order numbers are low (even a KS), then it’s not likely that a game is going to have much presence at retail either. That’s why so many companies utilize KS - you get a very good idea of how popular your product is going to be.
With the marketing clout of Kickstarter, and the exposure it brings to your product, worldwide exposure, how does a small company get more exposure than that to their primary audience? And without any sort of push in the retail landscape like Press Gangers, or champions of the game in stores?

Of all the miniature game projects launched on Kickstarter, how many of them are still going?
By that I mean, still releasing new product, expanding the game and the player base?
And how many of those that had around 3000 backers or less, have a retail presence? That means, how many game stores can you walk into and see the product on the shelves, and customers playing in the store a single day/night of the week?
I can’t think of any. If there are any that have a decent presence and/or player base that were Kickstarted, I’d like to know.

I think what we’re seeing with the success of Warcaster, is the Old Guard that are willing to support and buy just about anything PP makes. That doesn’t necessarily mean there are a ton of new players checking out their games. That tiny number of backers is indicative of exactly that - the player base is very small and well-established with very few new players taking the plunge.

Despite the supposed popularity of MonPoc and Riot Quest, I have yet to see them in my LGS. And my local store carries EVERYTHING.
If I can’t find gaming product at my store, is a very telling sign that nobody new is willing to buy the stuff.
The only MonPoc product they had were the starters, which didn’t sell, and are now sitting on the clearance shelf, and still no one is willing to buy into it, regardless of what is said on the internet.

 Ghool wrote:
A preorder Kickstarter is a tried and true way to gauge player interest - if your pre order numbers are low (even a KS), then it’s not likely that a game is going to have much presence at retail either. That’s why so many companies utilize KS - you get a very good idea of how popular your product is going to be.

I think CMON did better with Wrath of Kings Kickstarter, and it was a dead game basically from the moment it hit retail. Kickstarter is a good deal for board games that are relatively self contained, but I don't think they are representative for the launches of new ongoing miniature lines.

With the marketing clout of Kickstarter, and the exposure it brings to your product, worldwide exposure, how does a small company get more exposure than that to their primary audience? And without any sort of push in the retail landscape like Press Gangers, or champions of the game in stores?

Well, PP has a built in core audience of Warmachine players, ex-Warmachine players, and fans of PP's other games. It should be relatively easy to reach those players through traditional channels established by the Warmachine community. I mean, I doubt there are many active Warmachine players who don't know what Warcaster is.

As for retail - I don't think it is that important. For one thing, I don't think that Warmachine ever really had a huge retail presence in FLGS. When I started with Mk1, I never saw it. I was ecstatic when my local FLGS got some starters - but they were the starters that I already had, so I didn't buy them... and neither did anyone else, apparently. When I came back in the tail end of Mk2, it had SOME presence, but it was still a handful of boxes. Don't think I saw any Mk3 starters, but I was out by then. But we had a sizeable Warmachine group. They just bought all their Warmachine stuff off the WarStore and Miniature Market. They supported the store in other ways, but not buying miniatures.

Plus, with COVID-19 likely causing many premature closures, and the comic book industry dying (my FLGS is a comic book store first), the entire concept of a FLGS might be a thing of the past for many communities. I think it would be a massive mistake to design a business plan around their continued popularity and operation.

Of all the miniature game projects launched on Kickstarter, how many of them are still going?

Song of Ice and Fire. Some of the Mantic ones (Kings of War, Vanguard, Deadzone, Walking Dead). Guild Ball (SFG also did Godtear, but it is too soon to tell). Kingdom Death Monster. Probably others I can't think of. Not sure where you stand on hybrid stuff like Shadows of Brimstone, Batman/Conan, Mythic Battles: Pantheon, etc. Or board games made by miniature companies like Dark Souls/Resident Evil or Infinity: Defiance.

That doesn’t necessarily mean there are a ton of new players checking out their games. That tiny number of backers is indicative of exactly that - the player base is very small and well-established with very few new players taking the plunge.

Strictly speaking, it doesn't really matter how many players you have, if each player is spending more money on the product. For instance, I have several hundred dollars invested in Monsterpocalypse because I love the game and models. I'm more than willing to spend several hundred more dollars (in fact, I'm waiting on the Obliteration Boulevard mat to release so my preorder with Smashville, Leviathron, and Krakenoctus will ship).

And because I enjoyed MonPoc so much, I willingly bought into RiotQuest to a significant degree (two starters, three neoprene mats, and 5 more figures). I also bought a couple Warmachine starters and intend to play Mk3 for the first time soon. And when Warcaster releases, I'll buy two starters of that as well.

Good will generates loyalty and passion. It's not just that the player base will buy any old crap because it is PP (though this exists, and I personally know someone like that). But loyalty and passion will get you farther than anything else. The reason why Mk2 was popular is because of the loyalty and passion of its players, bringing in new players (some of which even stayed!). The reason why Mk3 wasn't popular is because that loyalty and passion disappeared, partly from the balance issues associated with Mk3's launch, and partly because GW was starting to steal that loyalty and passion by making good moves when PP was dumping press gangers and deleting their forums. Of course, GW didn't really change its spots, so who knows how long they'll keep their players' eyes from wandering...

Despite the supposed popularity of MonPoc and Riot Quest, I have yet to see them in my LGS.

I'm not surprised. At for MonPoc, you don't need a constant stream of other players to keep of the variety of playing the game. Warmachine needs other players to share in the financial burden of supporting multiple armies. MonPoc changes significantly with the addition of a single $25 model. Warmachine requires several hours for a game and a 4x4 table. MonPoc takes 30m to 1hr to play and fits on my dining room table - then we play something else. A single person can ably handle the burden of MonPoc for an entire group of players (including painting), so I'd rather invite my friends over to play with my copy than pack everything up and go play with strangers. Even GW has seen which way the wind is blowing, and putting more resources into kitchen tabletop experiences.

I think that's pressure from the board-gaming market, which is considerably larger than the war-gaming market. There's pretty intense pressure on that side of things to make games as short as humanly possible, and minimalism is prized.

Nurglitch wrote:
I think that's pressure from the board-gaming market, which is considerably larger than the war-gaming market. There's pretty intense pressure on that side of things to make games as short as humanly possible, and minimalism is prized.

I don't know about that. Some of the board games I play take longer than miniature games. When my daughter pulls out Root, I suddenly find excuses to be somewhere else. I mean, I'm up for a good three hour board game every once in a while, but not every weekend.

I just think 45m-1h is the sweet spot, since it gives everybody a natural break point to decide to play one more or call it a night. I feel like the longer a game is, the more susceptible it is to runaway leader syndrome, and then you end up with a player checking out early. We stopped playing 5+ player games because it always came down to two players actually playing and 3+ players checking their phones or having to be called back in to do their turns.

I've played more than a few Warmachine Mk2 games where I checked out after the 2nd round and basically just went through the motions of playing because there was no way I could win. I'd even forfeit, but they wanted to keep playing to see how well their combo worked out or to see by how much they won or something else. I'd put my warcaster in the middle of the field and they'd get angry at me and tell me to "play for real". This happened to me several times. In a 45m game, by the time I've realized that I have no hope, it's almost over anyway.

 Sqorgar wrote:
But loyalty and passion will get you farther than anything else.

Can we have a whip round and get this carved on some sort of ancient stone tablets and sent to PP HQ?

The reason why Mk2 was popular is because of the loyalty and passion of its players, bringing in new players (some of which even stayed!). The reason why Mk3 wasn't popular is because that loyalty and passion disappeared, partly from the balance issues associated with Mk3's launch, and partly because GW was starting to steal that loyalty and passion by making good moves when PP was dumping press gangers and deleting their forums. Of course, GW didn't really change its spots, so who knows how long they'll keep their players' eyes from wandering...

^^^This perfectly describes how we as a small games group and many of the stores that we know viewed PP. The trust, buy in and most importantly, good will has gone. MK3 and may of PPs moves and decisions has been a like a cheese grater on the face of the community, slowly shaving off player. Players view PP with some suspicion and most store that I have spoken to, even the bigger ones that still stock PP, say that PP has pretty much burnt all their bridges with them. PP needs to work out how to attract new players of all types and keep them.

That being said, i have seen more discussions around this and Podcasts addressing it which seems to show that even the uber competitive focused players are starting to realise that the game needs new blood and that just focusing on big SR comps is actually detrimental to the overall health of the game. This could be a great opportunity for PP and the community. If both parties are willing to take it.

Sorry. A bit late to this but Warmahordes does have neoprene mats.

They're all licensed by 3rd parties but there are several:

https://tablewar.com/collections/fatmats/the-f-a-t-mat%C2%AE-privateer-press-branded-f-a-t-mat

https://store.frontlinegaming.org/gaming-mats/privateer-press-mats/

aphyon wrote:

They did make a half assed effort with Company of Iron, but they made the mistake of thinking that people would want to play a version of Warmachine without warcasters or warjacks

I love playing a full version of warmachine at 50 points without warcasters and only jacks run by jack marshals in the vain of company of iron. it makes it a full table army game not centered around one figure. it is how most battles in the universe would happen since warcasters are incredibly rare.

I'm one that really wanted to like company of iron as I don't really care for warcasters. They're fine fluff wise but I think things are more interesting when they're not around. I wouldn't mind them taking another stab at a CoI style game.

Unfortunately as far as i know they don't have any of those mats for monpoc at present, just the paper ones from PP.

I mentioned the Noprene as that had been a discussion for quite some time related tothe look of the game.

MonPoc has fabric mats but privateer is sold out atm.

https://store.privateerpress.com/games/monsterpocalypse/monsterpocalypse-carnage-corners-fabric-playmat

I was talking specifically about neoprene, i am not interested in fabric, but at least that's a little better than paper

the wm community is toxic as hell. I've played off and on since warmachine came out and to see it devolve in the way it has is pretty sad. I could go on about my own experiences with the game but bottom line is they need to roll the dice and risk alienating the few people that are still playing in order to make a more approachable game and bring people back. Ultimately I really only care about their paint though too.

 Monkeysloth wrote:

I'm one that really wanted to like company of iron as I don't really care for warcasters. They're fine fluff wise but I think things are more interesting when they're not around. I wouldn't mind them taking another stab at a CoI style game.

I think the problem with games that try to take a unit based game and turn it into a skirmish is just that beyond the initial novelty you don't see these games getting models that keep players coming back. The initial buy in is great, but then the game needs to grow somewhere, but there's not a good way to add 1-2 amazing new models and grunt units just don't keep drawing in players like the centerpiece models of the bigger game does. That's a big reason why the Elites and HQ expansions are so crucial to making Kill Team more than a flash in the pan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommisar wrote:
the wm community is toxic as hell.

It's sad to me, because when I first started the game at the dawn of MK2, the big appeal of the game was how amazing the community was. I would literally drag my army wherever I was going and show up at a random game night and make friends. It was a super friendly and welcoming community. Streaming games towards the end of MK2 is where people started treating everyone like the enemy and when MK3 wasn't perfect, the community just devoured itself in petty nonsense. I have so many good friends I've made through the game, but the sense of comraderie with strangers the game once promised is just kind of gone these days.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:

I'm one that really wanted to like company of iron as I don't really care for warcasters. They're fine fluff wise but I think things are more interesting when they're not around. I wouldn't mind them taking another stab at a CoI style game.

I think the problem with games that try to take a unit based game and turn it into a skirmish is just that beyond the initial novelty you don't see these games getting models that keep players coming back. The initial buy in is great, but then the game needs to grow somewhere, but there's not a good way to add 1-2 amazing new models and grunt units just don't keep drawing in players like the centerpiece models of the bigger game does. That's a big reason why the Elites and HQ expansions are so crucial to making Kill Team more than a flash in the pan.

I think this is why they moved to Riot Quest. Having a bunch of unique solos that look cool is easier to sell. I wouldn't even care if they did another boxed game but fixing some of the clunkiness of CoI and opening up list building to more possibilities even as just something in a No Quarter (if that was still around) would be fine enough. Like a 1.5 ruleset would be good enough for me.

The main game I've never had fun with as overtime I've played (back in the MK2 days) it ended up looking like a civil war reenactment with just lines of troops sanding there not moving and just shooting. Several friends were pretty into the game and play a lot (all three ended up as writers for privateer's fiction line too) but I never found anything fun about the game. Love the setting and minis though.

 Kommisar wrote:
the wm community is toxic as hell.

You know, I used to think so too - but I've started to realize that it isn't really Warmachine's fault. It's social media's. A game like Warmachine is a big umbrella, and all sorts of players can fit underneath it, but because social media gives so much power to the biggest bullies and whiners, that's eventually what all communities devolve into.

Anybody who didn't fit the very narrow definition of what the Warmachine community considered to be a model player was bullied into silence, or outright leaving. Only certain kinds of people became press gangers, only certain kinds of people became facebook group moderators, only certain kinds of people were actively sought out to join the Warmachine community. It gave the illusion of consensus because an active effort was not made to listen to the players of every viewpoint. I mean, they probably weren't even the minority of players - they were probably the majority by a country mile, but because they didn't dominate the visible parts of the community nor actively imposed their will upon it, they were unseen and unheard.

This is a problem that I think all online communities share, and I think it gets worse over time. I started on Dakka when Age of Sigmar first launched, and let me tell you, Warmachine's community could not compare to the toxicity one received for the simple opinion of "I don't mind the game not having points" or liking what AoS was doing. I was not a part of the wargaming community at the time, so I didn't know which opinions were allowed to be shared. I think it is absurd that someone couldn't say that on Dakka without getting called names or insulted (probably still can't). It's not a coincidence that the major AoS communities did not spring up in the places where the Warhammer communities previously existed. They had to go somewhere else to start their own communities, because nobody else welcomed them into theirs.

Warmachine's community is not beyond saving, but it will require an effort from the unheard voices to finally be heard. The collapse of the community may ultimately make room for a new, less toxic community to grow in its place. The real question is whether anybody like Warmachine enough right now to go through the effort.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Monkeysloth wrote:
I wouldn't even care if they did another boxed game but fixing some of the clunkiness of CoI and opening up list building to more possibilities even as just something in a No Quarter (if that was still around) would be fine enough. Like a 1.5 ruleset would be good enough for me.

The interview I saw with Hungerford said that they weren't done with Companies of Iron, but that it probably wouldn't see a major change in the next year or two.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:
I wouldn't even care if they did another boxed game but fixing some of the clunkiness of CoI and opening up list building to more possibilities even as just something in a No Quarter (if that was still around) would be fine enough. Like a 1.5 ruleset would be good enough for me.

The interview I saw with Hungerford said that they weren't done with Companies of Iron, but that it probably wouldn't see a major change in the next year or two.

 Kommisar wrote:
the wm community is toxic as hell. I've played off and on since warmachine came out and to see it devolve in the way it has is pretty sad. I could go on about my own experiences with the game but the bottom line is they need to roll the dice and risk alienating the few people that are still playing in order to make a more approachable game and bring people back. Ultimately I really only care about their paint though too.

To be fair, for as much frustration i have with PP, it's not just privateer press.
Ive been saying for a long time, whether it was on Muse, or on L2, but if you want to enjoy a miniatures game, the first thing you need to do is get away from the internet. Even look at dakka. When someone new starts a tabletop game, like WH40k or WMH, the first thing I do is tell them not to go to Reddit, do not go to dakka, and do not go to social media. I tell them about our local gaming chats and get them connected with players that play the same factions or like the same things. Trust me, it saves players in the long run. It's like a mentoring process, but instead of having a mentor to guide you and help you grow, it's more like having a life coach warning you that what you are about to do is hazardous to your enjoyment of your new hobby.

Dakka and Reddit are particularly awful. I don't know why, but for whatever reason, the communities on these sites just seem to really enjoy just gaking on whatever game they are playing. I hang around and post sometimes when I'm excited about something, or if I think something cool is happening, or a topic grabs my attention, and I CERTAINLY love hanging around for the hobby stuff, but the average player on dakka is more toxic than a DOTA2 tournament held in an old chemical factory.

Dakka has, or had, a pretty bad reputation on other tabletop sites. When I first started coming here a few years ago I didn't even post for months as I was worried about getting attacked because everyone would talk about being a horrid place.

It's really not, at least News and Rumors where I spend most of my time, as I think the difference is the Mods aren't those type of people (or at least do a good job pretending to not be) but dumb stuff does come up from time to time like pointing out to GW people that every once and a while the pricing they're complaining about isn't actually expensive compared to other popular games. That will get you some angry replies.

It's also hard to not take it personally when you're talking about some new game/product up in N&R and someone stops in just to post a sentence about how dumb it is a then leaves as opposed to any useful criticism as for some reason liking something they don't is a crime. But that's just is a reflection on the internet in general.

I do find that sites/groups that are dedicated to one game tend to be just painful to be in and make me hate the game. Had to leave some infinity fan groups on Facebook and the official forums because it was just tiring and that made me think less of CB and the game for quite some time even though I know they had very little to do with it.

One issue with online groups is that you can more easily retain a large portion of the population who are not engaging with the hobby any more.

In the real world if you get bored of playing 40K you will generally stop turning up to the 40K game night at the club. You might pop around now and then, but by and large if you're not playing and not otherwise engaging with that area of the hobby, you'll stop going and start going to other things.

With an online group though, it doesn't take any effort or cost to turn up. Its just part of your online routine to check in on things. Because there's no barrier or "cost" you can more easily hang around. What can happen then is you can develop a bundle of users who are engaging with hobby discussions when they've "moved on" for whatever reason.


Now when that reason is something like "had a child not got the money to game" its a neutral sitaution; but when its "I hate the company;models;prices;rules" then suddenly you've got someone with a very negative connection to the hobby hanging around and engaging with the community.
Even if their points are valid, the issue is they bring a toxicity with them even though they don't realise it. Get enough of them together and they can reinforce each other which creates a toxic atmosphere that they don't even realise that they are creating.


Because often as not they are not "wrong", they are just disgruntled and focusing on negative aspects. At the same time they aren't reinforcing the good aspects so they gain a very negative tone that can bring things down. And in the end people who are on the enjoyment side of things, whilst being able to respect negative aspects, they don't want them thrust before them in every single conversation. Or every single conversation about certain topics.

As much as many negative people say that they loath "positive echo chambers" they themselves often produce as "negative echo chamber" and seek to create one. In the end the former are often far more enjoyable than the latter.

when its "I hate the company;models;prices;rules" then suddenly you've got someone with a very negative connection to the hobby hanging around and engaging

Those would be legitimate concerns to voice, i think what everybody is talking about WM wise is player attitude about what the game should be.

When you expect everybody to be "super hardcore, steamroller all the time, every time" or i won't notice you exist .

It becomes a problem for building and supporting a community of players who may not all want the same things out of the game.

The old saying that a room of people can't even agree on Pizza toppings. Ya. Large communities are never going to want the same thing out of a game.

It's OK to not like things, it's OK to say you don't like stuff, but it sucks when people don't like people disagreeing with them.

 Overread wrote:
One issue with online groups is that you can more easily retain a large portion of the population who are not engaging with the hobby any more.

This has definitely been the worst aspect about MK3. I mean, the edition was released 4 years ago and most of the complaints you hear to this day are stuff from the first 6 months or so that have long since been resolved.

 LunarSol wrote:
This has definitely been the worst aspect about MK3. I mean, the edition was released 4 years ago and most of the complaints you hear to this day are stuff from the first 6 months or so that have long since been resolved.

Other than balance, what other complaints have there been with Mk3?

 Sqorgar wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
This has definitely been the worst aspect about MK3. I mean, the edition was released 4 years ago and most of the complaints you hear to this day are stuff from the first 6 months or so that have long since been resolved.

Other than balance, what other complaints have there been with Mk3?

My main complaint is that everything needed to actually play the game is digital.
The only physical component I can buy anymore are models.
I want books, cards, magazines, and stuff I can hold in my hands.
Balance has never been a strong point of any war game, so complaining about that is moot.
I want my books and magazines back.

 Overread wrote:
One issue with online groups is that you can more easily retain a large portion of the population who are not engaging with the hobby any more.

In the real world if you get bored of playing 40K you will generally stop turning up to the 40K game night at the club. You might pop around now and then, but by and large if you're not playing and not otherwise engaging with that area of the hobby, you'll stop going and start going to other things.

With an online group though, it doesn't take any effort or cost to turn up. Its just part of your online routine to check in on things. Because there's no barrier or "cost" you can more easily hang around. What can happen then is you can develop a bundle of users who are engaging with hobby discussions when they've "moved on" for whatever reason.


Now when that reason is something like "had a child not got the money to game" its a neutral situation; but when its "I hate the company;models;prices;rules" then suddenly you've got someone with a very negative connection to the hobby hanging around and engaging with the community.
Even if their points are valid, the issue is they bring a toxicity with them even though they don't realise it. Get enough of them together and they can reinforce each other which creates a toxic atmosphere that they don't even realise that they are creating.


Because often as not they are not "wrong", they are just disgruntled and focusing on negative aspects. At the same time they aren't reinforcing the good aspects so they gain a very negative tone that can bring things down. And in the end people who are on the enjoyment side of things, whilst being able to respect negative aspects, they don't want them thrust before them in every single conversation. Or every single conversation about certain topics.

As much as many negative people say that they loath "positive echo chambers" they themselves often produce as "negative echo chamber" and seek to create one. In the end the former are often far more enjoyable than the latter.

This is true; I'm not engaged with Warhammer anymore and I never was with WMH. Posting here is a habit I'm working on overcoming, and especially posting negatively.

 Ghool wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
This has definitely been the worst aspect about MK3. I mean, the edition was released 4 years ago and most of the complaints you hear to this day are stuff from the first 6 months or so that have long since been resolved.

Other than balance, what other complaints have there been with Mk3?

My main complaint is that everything needed to actually play the game is digital.
The only physical component I can buy anymore are models.
I want books, cards, magazines, and stuff I can hold in my hands.
Balance has never been a strong point of any war game, so complaining about that is moot.
I want my books and magazines back.

Its such a double edged sword, isnt it? On one hand, its really hard for a company to justify the cost to produce that content, but on the other hand, we really want it. Then the company creates it and no one buys it, and they are left scratching their heads wondering if its worth it.

It feels, in a lot of ways, like a no win scenario for everyone involved. I could point to PP and say that its kind of their fault, because their printed material really isnt that good and doesnt advance anything anymore. But on the other hand, it was chock full of wonderful photos, stories, and painting guides, so its hard to say that they couldnt have done anything else to make it better.

I think this is a really hard time for wargaming in general, and doubly so for PP. the story, and the characters we attach ourselves to mean something to the players. Hell, many times, it's one of the reasons why we choose to like who we like and play the armies that we do. It's one of the driving forces behind what we play and collect. But if no one is buying it, what choice does a smaller company as PP have?

I really don't think there is a right answer. On one hand, I really do feel for them, as it looks like PP has just had to make concession after concession time after time, but on the other hand, I can't really absolve them from their failures either.

 Ghool wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
This has definitely been the worst aspect about MK3. I mean, the edition was released 4 years ago and most of the complaints you hear to this day are stuff from the first 6 months or so that have long since been resolved.

Other than balance, what other complaints have there been with Mk3?

My main complaint is that everything needed to actually play the game is digital.
The only physical component I can buy anymore are models.
I want books, cards, magazines, and stuff I can hold in my hands.
Balance has never been a strong point of any war game, so complaining about that is moot.
I want my books and magazines back.

The problem is all of those these are a waste in physically form. How many stores are just sitting on old edition books, cards and such for various games (especially warmachine) that they'll never sell? This just isn't a privateer issue but if I owned a store why would I ever want to stock anything like that? Especially with so many companies replacing their rules every 3 years it seams like? Cards are the worst as that means you can never update or adjust figures unless you print more cards that will just sit around never selling. And Magazines are very hard to be profitable. I'm sure privateer never made any direct money off of No Quarter and was just there to help boost sales of other items and even then it seams like it stopped being able to do that as the internet is 1000x better for what the magazine did. For this hobby everything you listed is better in digital form. And this is from someone that has hundreds of RPG books as I understand wanting physically things but when they way wargaming update cycles are digital is better.