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They had. They just didn"t expect the scale of uproar

 Kanluwen wrote:

AverageBoss wrote:

Necrons vs. Eldar would have made an even more interesting starter, and kept the good looking army vs. evil looking army dynamic.

But we can't escape the self perpetuating over consuming marine cycle that GW has created. They tried to do the same with Stormcast at the start of AoS, with 4 major releases and a few splash releases in a time frame before many armies even got their first battletome. But they seem to have actually gotten some backlash on that side of the fence, and eased off. Now its been 2 years since the last Stormcast release. Imagine if we went 2 years without space marine or primaris releases, and just got stuff for other armies? Of course if it were up to me, each major faction would get roughly equal treatment each year, to help diversify the player base more.

Again, you can't really keep harping on AoS because "before many armies even got their first Battletome" ignores that we had free rules readily available for the warscrolls and GHB even had Allegiance abilities for many of those armies, putting them on an even footing with those that had Battletomes.

It also ignores that the Stormcast are an entirely new range, which made the 'backlash' all the more ridiculous.

Getting four major waves and 3 battletomes before many factions get one is a very valid complaint, with or without the GHB. And Stormcast were far from the only new range for AoS (Ironjaws, KO, IDK, and Fyreslayers on the earlier end). And most preexisting factions were split into micro armies smaller than Stormcasts first wave, something that largely was not addressed until after 2nd edition.

And this is coming from a Stormcast player who owns 4 Stardrakes. But more regularly diversified support, will lead to a more diversified player base and army spread. People are more likely to armies that get more regular releases, advertisement and support, and less so to those that are left to wither for a decade. Games have gotten more varied an interesting without over half the players playing Stormcast. I truthfully hope 40K can say the same about Space Marines one day.

Funny, because it wasn't the "lack of releases" that was about why two specific sets of Stormcast became popular.

It's the fact that they were cheap from splitboxing. You didn't see people regularly running Extremis or Vanguard in my experience. You did see Sacrosanct and Warrior Chamber.

 Sabotage! wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Sabotage! wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

My point would be that you don't know they're getting nothing. They aren't getting it right this minute, but a lot can change in a year. Like I said, a debate can be had about the merits of what they've chosen to release. The state of the game is 180 degrees from where it was when I left to go to HH in 2015 because 7th drove away most of the player base.

You are right, I don't know. But there is nothing in the rumor mill or any of their previews to indicate otherwise. Under new leadership GW has released no new Guard kits at all (unless you count Black Library characters or Special Release kits), and has gotten rid of all the decent sculpts for Guardsmen from their catalogue. They have removed more kits than they have added. With no rumors or previews indicating otherwise how do I know it won't be another five or ten years before they decide to update the infantry? If they don't get rid of the faction anyways. I would agree that the state of the game is much better than 7th, at least from a gameplay perspective. As someone who has played since 3rd, 7th was easily the worst ruleset and suffered from the most bloat. As far as the company behind the game? I mean they have done some cool stuff with some of their non-core games, and they have certainly improved their reputation by treating their employees better and not trying to take everyone under the sun to court, but I wouldn't say they are really knocking it out of the park.

No new guard kits?

Really, because I recently picked up two brand new Catachan kits, one awesome looking Sargent and one really cool chainsword/bolter lady. Both came out within the last year ....

Now, that aside. You're right, so far there isn't anything in the pipe in terms or rumor pictures. So what? We have no idea how delayed anything is due to Covid now. I suspect Indomitus was originally supposed to have been unveiled at Adeptacon, but we didn't find out about it until what, May? I think?

I would guess that once we get past the marine and necron codexes, you'll see a shift back to non-marine releases for a while. Likely, Orks, Eldar or Guard are in that line up. I just can't say which/when/what.

Again, I get your frustration. There is a reason I too haven't bought a guard army (I want Steel Legion and don't want to pay for those awful metal ones) and I also want a nice Eldar Army someday. But for now I am doing the onlything I can do, waiting. And it's going to happen, sooner or later.

I've heard from a number of people that in recent years (like the last 2-3) the management put a new "20 year policy" on models. Basically once a kit hits that 20 year birthday, they begin the process of phasing it out in favor of a replacement, or upgrade. It makes a lot of sense considering a lot of what has been updated in recent years. Heck, I remember my FLGS trying to sell me the old Calgar in 2000. So I get ya. It's just going to take time. Send them a friendly note, email, saying 'I'd love to see more Xenos support." I've done that twice now myself, and I bet every nice note helps.

I did mention not counting special releases (both those kits are limited releases) to be fair, but under new leadership those two kits and the BL female Commissar kits are all Guard have gotten. I do also imagine after Marines and Necrons are done being release we will get some new stuff also, but it appears from the rumors to be more Death Guard (who have a range far bigger than is necessary already), and a couple plastic characters, along with maybe a new Ork kit.

I'm hoping you are right on that 20 year policy. Because both the core Guard kits need a major rework and are either almost that old or older. Or even plastic Steel Legion, Vostroyans, etc. Just something so Guard players don't have to play with terrible looking infantry (Scion kit withstanding, but they are their own deal). It would be a very small investment (in GWs scale) as one or two kits could do make the whole range modern.

So I can't confirm that, but I've seen it posted everywhere, my local FLGS store has told it to me via their GW Rep and even our local Warhammer store manager has said this is so. Having read it online and heard it in person, I find it hard to believe that it isn't true.

Vostroyans would also be a great kit. I'm hoping they'll go the full gamut and just make 6 kits for each of the 6 most popular guard battalions. The way I see it, they can do an Infantry Kit, Heavy Weapons Kit, Command Kit and a Special Weapons team and they've basically got it all covered. Multiply it by 6 and voila, new guard!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NAVARRO wrote:
The more I look at the starter the less I like it specially when I looked again at Dark Imperium content... WOW!

I know I know terrain and all. Meh.

These aren't the starter set for 9th. These are the little split sets that they use to help get people in for cheaper. They did the same thing in 8th with Know no Fear and whatever the name of that other box was.

tneva82 wrote:
They had. They just didn"t expect the scale of uproar

Yeah the Facebook post became the target of a full scale WAAAGH. Jobs a gud un' ladz

I just picked up my preordered books (the full scale hardback and the tournament bundle) - what is included in the full size book that isn't in the tournament pack? Just crusade rules and fluff? Not sure I want to rip the shrink wrap off as I'll just return it if it has no other content.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Rest easy, fix is coming per FB comment.

I sure am glad that GW clearly have any idea in hell what they're doing...

Like i said in another thread, manpower needs to be specific, GW hiring 100 designers and painters, and testers and bookkeepers can not fill the slot of a decent editor and proofreader...

The 20 year thing is just a vague policy, not a hard rule. It will never get in the way of more specific business decisions, i.e. "release moar primaris now!!11"

yukishiro1 wrote:
The 20 year thing is just a vague policy, not a hard rule. It will never get in the way of more specific business decisions, i.e. "release moar primaris now!!11"

Weird, the marine bikers are over 20.

Dudeface wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
The 20 year thing is just a vague policy, not a hard rule. It will never get in the way of more specific business decisions, i.e. "release moar primaris now!!11"

Weird, the marine bikers are over 20.

we got new ones with the Dark Angels, twice

Dudeface wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
The 20 year thing is just a vague policy, not a hard rule. It will never get in the way of more specific business decisions, i.e. "release moar primaris now!!11"

Weird, the marine bikers are over 20.

And got a new primaris replacement.

But there's lots of stuff that's over 20 years at this point if you look carefully.

 Togusa wrote:

These aren't the starter set for 9th. These are the little split sets that they use to help get people in for cheaper. They did the same thing in 8th with Know no Fear and whatever the name of that other box was.

These are the starter sets.
New 40k, New Starter Sets is the article name.
"New Starter Sets" is right there in the URL.

 Sabotage! wrote:

I'm hoping you are right on that 20 year policy. Because both the core Guard kits need a major rework and are either almost that old or older. Or even plastic Steel Legion, Vostroyans, etc. Just something so Guard players don't have to play with terrible looking infantry (Scion kit withstanding, but they are their own deal). It would be a very small investment (in GWs scale) as one or two kits could do make the whole range modern.

The Shock Troops/HWS/most of the metals are seventeen years old, so we're getting there.

yukishiro1 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
The 20 year thing is just a vague policy, not a hard rule. It will never get in the way of more specific business decisions, i.e. "release moar primaris now!!11"

Weird, the marine bikers are over 20.

And got a new primaris replacement.

But there's lots of stuff that's over 20 years at this point if you look carefully.

Oh I know, but occasionally the sarcy "moar primaries!!1!" Comments miss the mark. Get me some new zerkers and we're talking.

Doesn't it hit the mark here precisely, given that you mentioned an old marine kit that just got rebooted with a "moar primaris!!11" alternative, rather than a rework of the kit itself? Hence proving the observation that redoing a kit that's 20 years old will never get in the way of "moar primaris!!"?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

These aren't the starter set for 9th. These are the little split sets that they use to help get people in for cheaper. They did the same thing in 8th with Know no Fear and whatever the name of that other box was.

These are the starter sets.
New 40k, New Starter Sets is the article name.
"New Starter Sets" is right there in the URL.

Yup! Although they do look like little splits in comparison with Dark Imperium, I give him that much

yukishiro1 wrote:
There's nothing to prevent putting fortifications in strategic reserves, or from using deepstrike strats to deepstrike them (assuming the strat itself isn't limited to specific categories of units). If you want to tellyporta your mekboy shop in front of the enemy, you can do it. If you want to put it in strategic reserves and then have it magically appear on a table edge on T2 or T3, you can do that too.

Does the workshop have a move characteristic?
I find the deepstrike funny and goes well with Ork's lore, tellyporta a whole workshop on top of your enemies. But I don't know about the strategic reserve one, seems more dubious.

 Crimson wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:

Terrain seems like a cheap/weak way to "increase value" and leave out minis.

It will be more generally useful that way.

Yes, cheaper starters with more terrain are better for beginner, which should be the target audience. Less good for current player, who already have terrain and stuff, I guess, but it's not for them.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Doesn't it hit the mark here precisely, given that you mentioned an old marine kit that just got rebooted with a "moar primaris!!11" alternative, rather than a rework of the kit itself? Hence proving the observation that redoing a kit that's 20 years old will never get in the way of "moar primaris!!"?

I know right, it's almost like they plan to axe the old marine kits with a full primaris replacement line or something. Crazy.

Wonder if the new starters will use colored plastic? I know the ETB kits did, but can't remember if Dark Millenium did (I don't think so).

I know the new starter set has less models than Dark Imperium, but I think terrain is a better inclusion for new players. Terrain is a vital part of the game and it shows new players this by including it the starter set. It also helps teach the rules.

In addition a lot of players (myself included) scoff at playing GW prices for a great deal of their terrain kits, but when they are included at a discount in a boxed set I am more than happy to pick them up. Most of us don't feel that way about units for our armies (or at least do, but buy them anyways).

If two new were to each buy one of the starters and then split them , they'd have at least a combat patrol and a board full of terrain to play on. From then on they just focus on buying units they like until they fill up their 1k point armies and have everything they need.

I am going to cancel my second preorder of indomitus and pick up that middle starter set, main reason I wanted it was to get 3 more bikes, so this is good news for me.

Wakshaani wrote:
They *really* need an update.

GW tried that. Remember Wake the Dead? It was one of the last of the cheap army boxsets. Funnily enough, it was one of the worst sellers, too, as you could grab it weeks after release despite having both new SM Lieutenant and Eldar HQ available nowhere else. It was almost as bad seller as Phoenix and unlike it, WtD had really good price so even that excuse is gone. I like how people complaining GW doesn't do X vote with their money against them doing so when GW does two trials of X, then make surprised Pikachu face when GW concludes it was a bad idea and complain about GW being evil for not doing that

AverageBoss wrote:
Imagine if we went 2 years without space marine or primaris releases, and just got stuff for other armies? Of course if it were up to me, each major faction would get roughly equal treatment each year, to help diversify the player base more.

We don't need to ""imagine"" because that was exactly the case in this reality. Between 2017 (Dark Imperium) and 2019 (Vanguard SM) there was nearly two year long period in which marines got nothing, not that you'd know that by listening to revisionist whiners who apparently think SM get five starter box sized releases every month.

Meanwhile, since the big Tzeenth release, Chaos got easily 5x as much as marines and you somehow don't hear whining about that (say, DG and TS used to be just upgrade kits to CSM - they could have stayed that way, but no, both got big redundant ranges of their own. Imagine the explosion of crying if GW treated SM the same and released full separate Iron Hands range instead of token character - saltworks would rival small exterminatus in size...) despite the fact that they got like 10 separate human cultist boxes alone in last 4 years but noooo, it's the Primaris that are the problem stealing release slots

 Irbis wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:
They *really* need an update.

GW tried that. Remember Wake the Dead? It was one of the last of the cheap army boxsets. Funnily enough, it was one of the worst sellers, too, as you could grab it weeks after release despite having both new SM Lieutenant and Eldar HQ available nowhere else. It was almost as bad seller as Phoenix and unlike it, WtD had really good price so even that excuse is gone. I like how people complaining GW doesn't do X vote with their money against them doing so when GW does two trials of X, then make surprised Pikachu face when GW concludes it was a bad idea and complain about GW being evil for not doing that

AverageBoss wrote:
Imagine if we went 2 years without space marine or primaris releases, and just got stuff for other armies? Of course if it were up to me, each major faction would get roughly equal treatment each year, to help diversify the player base more.

We don't need to ""imagine"" because that was exactly the case in this reality. Between 2017 (Dark Imperium) and 2019 (Vanguard SM) there was nearly two year long period in which marines got nothing, not that you'd know that by listening to revisionist whiners who apparently think SM get five starter box sized releases every month.

Meanwhile, since the big Tzeenth release, Chaos got easily 5x as much as marines and you somehow don't hear whining about that (say, DG and TS used to be just upgrade kits to CSM - they could have stayed that way, but no, both got big redundant ranges of their own. Imagine the explosion of crying if GW treated SM the same and released full separate Iron Hands range instead of token character - saltworks would rival small exterminatus in size...) despite the fact that they got like 10 separate human cultist boxes alone in last 4 years but noooo, it's the Primaris that are the problem stealing release slots

Ah yes people not buying a bundle of Eldar models from the late 90s is absolute proof that new models wouldn't sell. And the Primaris range doesn't even exist apparently, pictures of it were planted to test our faith.

Irbis don’t bring facts into this conversation about feelings. Really not a good look.

/s

Outside of the 2.0 window marines have been “meh” for a majority of the time I have played the last twenty years, they were okay but not broken.

 Leth wrote:
I am going to cancel my second preorder of indomitus and pick up that middle starter set, main reason I wanted it was to get 3 more bikes, so this is good news for me.

I hope that they come out with the new terrain from the starter separately. Looks like a new sector imperialis sprue or two that fit better with the manufactorum set in addition to the new pipes. Would also be nice if they brought back a kit with the big 3 wide panel from the Imperial Sector box set.

 Irbis wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:
They *really* need an update.

GW tried that. Remember Wake the Dead? It was one of the last of the cheap army boxsets. Funnily enough, it was one of the worst sellers, too, as you could grab it weeks after release despite having both new SM Lieutenant and Eldar HQ available nowhere else. It was almost as bad seller as Phoenix and unlike it, WtD had really good price so even that excuse is gone. I like how people complaining GW doesn't do X vote with their money against them doing so when GW does two trials of X, then make surprised Pikachu face when GW concludes it was a bad idea and complain about GW being evil for not doing that

AverageBoss wrote:
Imagine if we went 2 years without space marine or primaris releases, and just got stuff for other armies? Of course if it were up to me, each major faction would get roughly equal treatment each year, to help diversify the player base more.

We don't need to ""imagine"" because that was exactly the case in this reality. Between 2017 (Dark Imperium) and 2019 (Vanguard SM) there was nearly two year long period in which marines got nothing, not that you'd know that by listening to revisionist whiners who apparently think SM get five starter box sized releases every month.

Meanwhile, since the big Tzeenth release, Chaos got easily 5x as much as marines and you somehow don't hear whining about that (say, DG and TS used to be just upgrade kits to CSM - they could have stayed that way, but no, both got big redundant ranges of their own. Imagine the explosion of crying if GW treated SM the same and released full separate Iron Hands range instead of token character - saltworks would rival small exterminatus in size...) despite the fact that they got like 10 separate human cultist boxes alone in last 4 years but noooo, it's the Primaris that are the problem stealing release slots

Wake the Dead isn't a good point of comparison because it's full of ancient models that anyone who is interested in already has.

I personally think the wait time between the original Primaris release and the SM Vanguard was fine, though it was a bit shorter for this new starter. But as pointed out before, GW will not release a starter without SM. I'm not going to get into that can of worms, because there are a lot of reasons for it and against it. Historically GW has updated the SM line far more than any other though. Since plastic Cadians in 2003 the Tactical Squad has been redone twice and recut once or twice as well. Then they were replaced with Primaris Intercessors (not technically in the rules of the game, but that is the intention).


The reason you don't hear complaining about Chaos getting their Marines redone is because their basic kit, and most of their range was from the 2003-2008 era and had been dated horribly. The previous plastic marine kit was a recut of a kit that came out in the early 2000s. Havocs and Raptors were metal, etc. The last tactical squad to come out was in 2014 or 2015. While I agree that Thousand Sons and Death Guard didn't need to be full armies and we could have just gotten a new Rubric and new Plague Marine kit instead and focused on updating ancient core troops for Guard, Nids, and Eldar, it's not really the same as the treatment SM have historically been given. They always get the first or second codex with each new release, every one of the 9 original legions has a supplement or their own codex along with a unique character every edition. Again, while I don't think DG and TS needed whole ranges, it isn't any different than Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels being their own armies. They really should just have a unique kit and character and be part of the normal SM army with different Chapter tactics.

Also CSM getting 10 new cultist boxes in the last 4 years is simply not even close to true. They have gotten two boxes, one of which is a partial recut of the Dark Vengeance Cultists and the other is models from another game entirely that can be used in 40k. That's like counting the Space Marine Heroes line as Space Marine releases.

TLR : CSM needed an update, Primaris releases are fine - but marines historically get more focus than any other faction.

So we've gotten previews of new starter sets, new terrain, and new models for multiple factions. And TONS of new primaris stuff. So anything on the new Forge World books that we were told would be available soon after the release of 9th edition? Nothing? Still? Hello gw, the old fw Indexes haven't been available for months. You're selling models without rules. C'mon, throw us a bone.

It took them 4 months to release the saga of beast faq....
I think the rules team is a little behind and overworked

And looking at the quality being released apparently they are trying to rush it out quickly too.... this doesn’t leave me high hopes for the fw stuff.... at least the crappy FAQs get regular updates throughout the year with chapter approved and new codex... this fw index will likely rarely be touched until 10th edition rolls around... so let’s hope they do a semi decent job.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So we've gotten previews of new starter sets, new terrain, and new models for multiple factions. And TONS of new primaris stuff. So anything on the new Forge World books that we were told would be available soon after the release of 9th edition? Nothing? Still? Hello gw, the old fw Indexes haven't been available for months. You're selling models without rules. C'mon, throw us a bone.

Yea, it's all screwy now. The Necron and Marine codexes should have been ready for launch. I'd wager we'll see FW closer to the end of the year at this point.

And it'll be full of typos and errors that break the rules in strange and terrible ways.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So we've gotten previews of new starter sets, new terrain, and new models for multiple factions. And TONS of new primaris stuff. So anything on the new Forge World books that we were told would be available soon after the release of 9th edition? Nothing? Still? Hello gw, the old fw Indexes haven't been available for months. You're selling models without rules. C'mon, throw us a bone.

I want to see them too, but it's been like 4 days since the release. I would at least give it a couple of weeks to a month before starting to get annoyed.

Anyone remember how long into 8th it was before we got the FW Indexes?