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I'm thinking that you can interrupt to resolve overwatch fire after a unit completes a normal move/run or after it completes a charge. No other circumstances would allow overwarch fire to be taken.

Also, if declared shooting is used, then potentially you'd have to declare your overwatch target as well (i.e. "we're gunna wait for unit X to come into view and then blast 'em!)

A.T. wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Siren works on Grey Knights because it's not being cast on the Grey Knights.

We have now come full circle.

a) "Grey Knights are not the target" - I refer you to my original post explaining why that is not a requirement and referencing the wording of the rule.
b) "Effect = target" - These are not the same. I refer you to my post given an example of the difference.
c) "The effect starts and ends on the siren" - it clearly effects the target selection of the GK unit. See my previous post.
d) And then back to a.

Every single website post from the era I have managed to find, the posted tournament errata from the era, and as far as I can tell the rule as written disagree with you. But i've got nothing against houserules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 aphyon wrote:
Guys your both great, but this is getting us nowhere you disagree, great news neither one of you will be playing against the other and not with the GK 3rd ed codex

Still worth hashing out - for my benefit too. I've got an old project to clean up the old books and rules which I should get back to at some point and all these edge cases are something that will need to be addressed.

The question of siren vs GK led me to that tournament errata document which I don't think i've seen before but is more more extensive that just the official FAQs and errata - i've tracked down a lot of GWs old documents but the tourny doc is the best master list i've seen, at least for that specific date.

I need to read through Mezmorkis stuff too. Looks like we have gone in slightly different directions (i've tried to limit extra rolls and actions like overwatch) but i'm a lot less set on other areas like wound allocation and objectives.

Well as i noted in my post-having read the RAW it seems pretty clear to me that HBMC is incorrect as the Aegis rule has 2 specific separate components

1.-It does not target them so they don't have to LD check counter it
2.-as it does not target them it is automatically ignored/has no effect.

Hence siren does not effect GKs.

Just got a little epic scale 40K in using 8th ed rules-225 power level so i had to add some elysians in to back up the admech.

the table



The start



turn 1



turn 3



turn 5



turn 6

Khorne always wins but i made him pay for it. my elysian lord commisars were doing the emperors work. one even finished off a squad of berserkers in close combat.

I lost the roll to go first. and it cost me 3 dune crawlers...quad las cannons hurt.

At the end i managed to kill 2 havoc squads, 1 hell talon, 2 spartan land raider, a squad of bloodleters, 4 squads of berserkers, 1 terminator squad, and a demon prince

For that i lost 3 tech priest dominus, 4 3/4 cataphron units, 2 tauros venators, 2 vendetta gunships, 5 dune crawlers, 2 lord commisars, and 1 1/2 squads of elysians

So one of the guys i have been playing with for a few years mentioned he had not seen half the stuff i own since i mostly have been playing the one army since 5th with a few swaped loadouts...and the covid lockdowns haven't helped our full game group area access play time in the last 6 months at capacity.

So with everything going to primaris spam or legends with 9th, lets play a game of tally your old marines/minis.

SALAMANDERS SUCCESORS

HQ
.brey'arth ashmantle -dreadnought (FW)
.master of the forge w/4 servitor
.master of the forge on bike W/conversion beamer
.terminator librarian

TROOPS
.scout snipers X10
.bolter scouts X5
.tactical squad X10
.ironclad dreadnoughts (dread talon) X3

ELITE
.venerable dreadnought X3

HEAVY SUPPORT
.land raider achilles (FW)

FAST ATTACK
.assault squad X10
.land speeder typhoon
.storm eagle gunship (FW)
.storm hawk interceptor

TRANSPORTS
.razorback
.landspeeder storm
.X3 drop pods

ALLIES
.grey knight terminator grand master W/ 9 terminator retinue
.all 4 temple assassins

SUPERHEAVIES
.macharius (FW)
.doom hammer
.warhound titan(dreamforge titan proxy)

DARK ANGELS

HQ
.Azrael W/retinue
.deathwing chaplain
.sammael on jet bike
.sammael in land speeder

TROOP (depending on army)
.X2 ravenwing squad (3 w/attack bike)
.deathwing terminator squad (5)

ELITE
.X4 venerable dreadnoughts

FAST ATTACK
.ravenwing attack bike squad
.land speeder tempest(FW)

HEAVY SUPPORT
.land raider
.land raider crusader
.land rader helios(FW)
.land raider prometheus(FW)
.X2 whirlwinds/razorbacks

CULT MECHANICUS
HQ
.tech priest dominus
.X6 techpriests

TROOP
.X2 cataphron breachers (3)

HEAVY SUPPORT
.X2 onagers (3rd party proxy)

TRANSPORTS
.termite assault drill(3rd party)

MISC...
.XV 89 tau heavy crisis suit (FW)-display piece
.hammerhead gunship-display piece
.titan tech priest (FW)
.Solmon Lok (FW)-display piece
.black templar emperors champion-used for DnD
.Inquisitor lord Karamozov -display piece
.X4 bullgryn
.necron lord-display piece
.tau etherial -display piece
.The Emperor of man W/custodes retinue(5)-for 30K games if we feel silly.

.
So more than enough stuff to mix and match that i don't need to give GW any new money to play my armies in 5th ed.

My most intense games were with 5th. Whackiest games were with 7th. I think that a "premium" edition of 40k could be made by blendering the union of all options from 2nd-7th edition (barring clearly screwy aspects like Virus Grenades, of course) then refactoring/sculpting down rules, and perhaps going for some version of alternating-activation based on "army quarters" or so.

Instant Death and "Explodes" would be replaced by "+D3 Wounds/HP" damage, and vehicles would either shift to toughness/armor, or have more toughness to compensate.

USRs, consolidated with less bloat. Minimal bespoke rules.
Movement as a stat. Overwatch based off attack declaration.

Etc.

I actually despise the hull point system. you either choose one or the other. a damage chart or a hit point system. intuitively the damage system makes sense because we can mentally relate to a vehicle getting a track or road wheel blown off, are a weapon mount getting destroyed/dmaged beyond use.

DUST uses a hit point system comparable to 40K 8+ but they do it in a better way. they still require facings for weapons, they have more hit points that 6th or 7th but not as many as 8th +, they limit what can hurt them by armor class (1-3 light, 4-5 medium, 6-7heavy/super heavy).

So small arms can hurt light things like a jeep (armor class 1), but are not able to hurt heavy armor like a tank.
There is also no roll to wound in that system if you hit you also score a wound. there is also no invulnerable saves of any kind, just infantry saves, cover saves(the only things vehicles get), and damage resilience (FNP equivalent)

I also try to steer clear of anything from 2nd edition as it was more RPG oriented that 3-7 that are back compatible.

When it comes to USRs there are only like 2 1/2 pages in 5th. bloat is what happened in 7th and 8th+

 aphyon wrote:
I actually despise the hull point system. you either choose one or the other. a damage chart or a hit point system. intuitively the damage system makes sense because we can mentally relate to a vehicle getting a track or road wheel blown off, are a weapon mount getting destroyed/dmaged beyond use.

DUST uses a hit point system comparable to 40K 8+ but they do it in a better way. they still require facings for weapons, they have more hit points that 6th or 7th but not as many as 8th +, they limit what can hurt them by armor class (1-3 light, 4-5 medium, 6-7heavy/super heavy).

So small arms can hurt light things like a jeep (armor class 1), but are not able to hurt heavy armor like a tank.
There is also no roll to wound in that system if you hit you also score a wound. there is also no invulnerable saves of any kind, just infantry saves, cover saves(the only things vehicles get), and damage resilience (FNP equivalent)

I also try to steer clear of anything from 2nd edition as it was more RPG oriented that 3-7 that are back compatible.

When it comes to USRs there are only like 2 1/2 pages in 5th. bloat is what happened in 7th and 8th+

Sure, I can respect the Dust system. So long as there remains a way to inflict damage on vehicles beyond "reduce HP", and damage isn't a "binary death roulette," then it's ultimately a resolution mechanic.

There are approx 80-something USRs in 7th. Many of them are minor variations of the same one, plus the rules were also written in a half-way USR/halfway bespoke manner. 8th of course, being all bespoke, also meant inflation of FAQ sizes for "same rule/different name" rules.

One thing that always amused me was how 7th had a USR that went completely unused for half the edition (Missile Lock), but needed many bespoke rules for "can fire more than one weapon."

5th edition has a total of 22 USRs that cover everything the game needs and it worked just fine.

So long as there remains a way to inflict damage on vehicles beyond "reduce HP"

Not sure what you mean by that, if you want a double damage system like 6th/7th edition then i cannot agree, it is a terrible game design mechanic that punishes players for bringing a legal unit.
40K is also not a system that lends itself to more complex detailed rules allowed in skirmish systems like battletech.

It is a tactical combat game. armored vehicles are supposed to be hard to kill, which is why you need dedicated weapons designed to kill them. which is why 5th edition worked so well from a game mechanic standpoint and a tactical play standpoint.

 aphyon wrote:
5th edition has a total of 22 USRs that cover everything the game needs and it worked just fine.

So long as there remains a way to inflict damage on vehicles beyond "reduce HP"

Not sure what you mean by that, if you want a double damage system like 6th/7th edition then i cannot agree, it is a terrible game design mechanic that punishes players for bringing a legal unit.
40K is also not a system that lends itself to more complex detailed rules allowed in skirmish systems like battletech.

It is a tactical combat game. armored vehicles are supposed to be hard to kill, which is why you need dedicated weapons designed to kill them. which is why 5th edition worked so well from a game mechanic standpoint and a tactical play standpoint.

By damage roulette, I mean that big things either die or don't die. Land Raiders were always awkward to use relative to Rhinos/Razorbacks for that reason, which meant using dual Raiders was a "win big/lose big" army in 5th.

Even if you ignore Grav, or the divide in durability of Monstrous Creatures vs vehicles in 6th/7th, or Invisibility, then the Stomp and Thunderblitz tables were also primary examples of "death roulette." The olde classic of "6 autokills/ignores invuls" versus Invisibility or 2++ rerollable...yeah.

Much of that is the reason why we are using the 5th edition core rules. if you look back to my first post that started this topic. we house rule in 15 rules some from 3rd/4th and some from 6th/7th to make the game more enjoyable. but if say a faction USR rule in one of those other codexes from a different edition conflicts with a core mechanic or USR form 5th, the 5th edition rules supercede/ignore the others. i used the example of dunestrider VS move through cover in my previous posts. it pretty well fixes all the problems you mentioned.

Since we are playing for fun(obviously since we went back to 5th edition) nobody is going to roll in with a blind/re-roll saves deathstar terminator/librarian combo from 7th.

stuff like that gets you mercilessly mocked, unless we are planning some silly things ahead of time like playing 30K and bringing the emperor to the table.

Adding to the collection for playing our 5th ed games with our favorite codexes-

Just picked up the 4th edition codexes for eldar and orks and the 5th edition codex for necrons.

so far that gives me

3rd
.dark angels
.white scars(index astartes)
.imperial fists(index astartes)
.demon hunters
.witch hunters
.black templar(index astartes)
.chaper approved(imperial guard armoured company/schaffers last chancers)

4th
.tau
.tyranids
.orks
.eldar
.space marines


5th
.space marines
.space wolves
.necrons
.imperial guard

7th
.cult mechanicum/skitarii

I think next in line will be the 5th ed blood angels codex and probably the 4th ed black templar codex.

 aphyon wrote:
I think next in line will be the 5th ed blood angels codex and probably the 4th ed black templar codex.

The 4e templars under 5e rules were decently playable with the update (m1620223a_Black_Templars_Version_1_1.pdf). Outdated pricing both for and against them in places.

I’m really glad I found this thread. I want the narrative/fluff aspect of 40k to have the most importance in my games. 250 point armies consisting of customized figures with background info for each unit or character. I think the army lists included with the 3rd edition rules could be a good start. Does anyone have experience with those lists?

I was just talking with someone about 2nd Ed on another thread, and they were saying how someone at their store bought an army of 120 Hormagaunts to use, and how crazy that was.

This in turn sent me down the path of exploration about how I could try to counter that with my marines at the time, and it just reminded me of all the crazy options you had. My first response was to load up marines in Rhinos, arm them with Flamers, plasma and Frag grenades and ram through the Hormagaunts because they couldn't hurt the Rhinos. All the while flaming out the hatches (at least six models could fire out of the Rhino) and throwing grenades. You could totaly do that in 2nd Ed, and it sounded so effing cool narratively, and it would be pretty effective, tactically etc, and it was right there in the rules. God I miss that game.

Digging deeper I re-discovered my Attack Bike combo that I had used in 2nd, where after the plastic/metal upgrade model came out, you could arm it with a Heavy Bolter. You could then use a vehicle card to upgrade the Heavy Bolter with a Heavy Flamer. Because it was a Bike, you could accelerate to Fast Speed in a single turn, and you could also arm the driver with a Flamer and attatch Auto-Launchers to the bike that shot out Frag Grenades. So you had this model that could fly forward 20something inches, fire off two auto-hitting template weapons that set models on fire, and unleash a barrage of three 4"diameter blasts at the same time.

THEN you could put a Recon Pack on the bike for a higher Strategy Rating for a better chance to go first.

So brutal.

This looks like being forced in to spending 100s of dollars to tailor against one army. It doesn't sound as a very valid way to deal with playing w40k, because at that point we may as well go with buying an army for every faction, maybe even for multiple GW games just in case something is fun to play at that time.

OscarWao wrote:
I’m really glad I found this thread. I want the narrative/fluff aspect of 40k to have the most importance in my games. 250 point armies consisting of customized figures with background info for each unit or character. I think the army lists included with the 3rd edition rules could be a good start. Does anyone have experience with those lists?

Welcome, glad you found us.

Once you realise how toxic the tourney/competitive(last GT i participated in was 2011) scene is, you understand the narrative/fluff aspect of 40K is the game is the reason we enjoy playing it. we want to play IN the universe and have our toy soldiers behave as if they were in that universe.

For 250 point games specifically i suggest you get a hold of the 4th edition main rulebook or it's PDF. it had the original combat patrol (250 point armies) and kill team rules/mission scenarios.

We use a version of that for our kill team games with 5th ed rules

I don't have the official document scanned, so i will just read off it and post the short version

.250 points
.minimum 5 minis, max of 12
.one mini must be the leader and can be the only one of that type-IE sargents, librarians, cannoness, commisar, farseer etc...
.3 minis can have a special rule to represent battlefield skills(move through cover, relentless, eternal warrior etc..) but it cannot change the unit or weapon type
.you are encouraged to name all your minis for more fun
.units can be taken from any section of the codex with the following restrictions.
.maximum of 40 points (counts towards the 250 point total) of personal war gear from the unit selected-sternguard, loota boy, striking scorpion etc..
.no named characters
.no monsterous creatures(although they make a great op-force for themed games-for every normal player a single nid player gets to bring 250 points of big bugs for a bug hunt for example)
.no aircraft/flyers
.no vehicles with a combined AV above 33-so you could bring a light vehicle like a razorback, chimera, war walker, grot mini tank, necron ark etc... but not something like a dreadnought or a predator
.using the 6th ed mysterious terrain rules is recommended for more fun. it leads to some silly things happening.

After each match a mini gets a d6 experience they can use to buy better gear or upgrade their stats-upgrading stats cost 5 XP each and cannot be done twice in a match for the same stat line.
(max stats are capped at- WS7, BS6, S6, T6, W3, I7, A4, LD10 )

If a mini "dies" in a match you roll a d6 on a 1 or 2 they take a permanent battle wound to carry over into the rest of their games.

the "wound" chart is as follows- 2d6s rolled as percentiles
for space i am leaving out the funny anecdotes in the descriptions
11-out of actions-cannot participate in the next game
12-16-multiple injuries-roll d6 times on this chart ignore out of action, multiple injuries and full recovery
21-22-chest wound-toughness reduced by 1
23-leg wound- movement reduced by 1"
24-arm wound- strength reduced by 1
25-head wound-at the start of the next game roll a d6-1-3 the model gains stubborn/4-6 the model gains rage
26-blind in one eye-BS skill reduced by 1, a second blinding results in the model being retired from the kill team
31-33-shell shock-initiative reduced by 1
34-36-old battle wound-start off the game roll a d6, on a roll of 1 the wound is acting up-the model may not participate.
41-45-full recovery- ignore all injuries-THIS IS KILL TEAM
56 bitter enmity-wounds cause mental damage roll a d6 and gain hatred for the following
.1-3 the enemy mini that caused the wound
.4-5 the enemy team that caused the wound
.6 the race that caused the wound
61-63-captured-exchange members with enemy kill team that also has captured minis (we rarely use this one, mostly ignore it)
64-horrible scars-this mini now causes fear
65 impressive scars- (so many role playing reasons) can only be applied once gain +1 leadership stat.
66-survival against the odds-full recovery gain an additional d6 exerience

The winning team also gains a pool d6 experience after each battle that they can use to buy stats or gear across the entire kill team spread out as needed.

Wow bud, thanks for the great post! Luckily I never experienced any real toxicity during a tournament. I am glad that 40k will never be like Magic the gathering; all mechanics no story. I will definitely give all my old books a read through when they arrive.

I am glad that 40k will never be like Magic the gathering; all mechanics no story.

Unfortunately that is the direction GW is taking the game. they slowly ramped it up as 8th progressed and have tripled down on it with 9th. buffs and de-buffs based on a resource mechanic. as well as "character" for a faction relying on the same resource mechanic instead of being in-built rules for the faction based in the lore.

I recently helped write up a 3rd edition style list for a new player who plays "white scars" in 8th/9th but has never experienced anything before those editions. i am hoping we get a game in this weekend to give him a taste of how 40K used to play. as it is completely a different game than what he is used to.

Have you all experimented with something like a DM for games of 40k? I know Inquisitor and early WFB had this, but I’ve never seen it elsewhere.

I want to organize something like the Pilgrim thing they did at warhammer world so I’ll be going to the local game club this Sunday and asking if anyone is interested in the format that you suggested. How many games have you played with it?

It is basically old school kill teams we have played many games of it when we feel like running the ongoing campaign. i also ran a mini fun tournament for it back during 7th edition.

The most fun of the kill teams at the mini tourney was a grot army with 4 mini tanks one upgraded to commander and a killa kan.

An example of my 2 kill teams using these rules

.master of the forge
.las/plas razorback
.X2 sternguard
.assault marine W/plasma pistol

version 2

.librarian in terminator armor
.vanguard veteran w/storm shield&power fist
.X2 sternguard veterans
.heavy bolter scout w/cammo cloak

If you want to run a game with a DM you need to go back to 2nd edition where they are needed.

Update time.
a game of our hybrid 5th edition
nids (4th) VS chaos(3.5) at 2k.

I decided to give one of my regular chaos players a good fight, since he plays khorne i wrote up a CC themed nid list for our game.

I sold off my nids some time ago so i borrowed a bunch from a friend who is also a regular. since they were not mine they were not WYSIWYG


The table-using the forges of mars mat from gamematEU



The Nids

HQ-
X2 brood lords

Troops
X2 gene stealer broods

Elite
X2 CC focused leaping warrior broods

Heavy
X2 carnifex
X1 zoanathrope

-47 minis/80 wounds



We did a 12" deployment battle.

i won the roll to go first and pushed up hard. we had very little shooting on both sides so when my stealers outflanked from reserve on turn 2 this is how the table looked.



One of my brood lords got a lucky kill rend on the land raider and my warriors leaped into action.


The thing about these bugs, they hit hard and won't run, but with a majority of models in the army with a 4+ armor save, So they started dropping.









The game was called after his obliterators and his chaos lord both failed a host of 2+ armor saves.





Nids ended up pulling off the win this time around in the 6 turns of the game.....but there was a lot of blood spilled so in a way khorne won to.

Really appreciate that people are still playing and enjoying older editions.

I would love to take some of the units from and later editions (some flyers and even Knights), and try and integrate them back to 5th edition. Having just gotten back into trying to play 5th, I don't think I have the overall familiarity with the system differences to do so. At least not yet.

My most intense games were with 5th. Whackiest games were with 7th.

Whackiest games could be a category all its own! I think my "whackiest games" came in 2nd. I've talked about it before, but I played an Orks vs Ultramarines game with an Armorcast Reiver titan on the marines side and a ton of Orks, a shok-attack gun on the other, as well as a random vortex grenade. Early on, the shok attack gun hit the Riever and rolled the result where the Snotlings get teleported through a warp tunnel and are completely terrified. They come out the other side clinging to the Titan driver's head, terrified and defecating/vomiting all over the place in fear. This caused the Titan to start moving out of control using the scatter dice.

It was about this time that one of us also threw a vortex grenade (I can't remember which army actually brought the grenade but it was probably the Ultramarines player - cheeky SOB that he was ) in the hopes of killing the titan so that it wouldn't stomp both armies to death. The roll was terrible and the grenade scattered an obscene distance in the exact opposite of the intended direction. So the game quickly devolved into a vortex grenade bouncing all over one flank, and a titan out of control on the other, with the two armies in between no longer really fighting, but rather trying to avoid death by vortex/titan stomp.

Good times. You don't have crazy games like that in any other edition but 2nd

 flakpanzer wrote:
Really appreciate that people are still playing and enjoying older editions.

I would love to take some of the units from and later editions (some flyers and even Knights), and try and integrate them back to 5th edition. Having just gotten back into trying to play 5th, I don't think I have the overall familiarity with the system differences to do so. At least not yet.

It is actually quite easy.

USRs from 5th take precedent in the rules but otherwise take the points cost from the new edition units and use the 5th edition upgrade stats and points if they existed.

In the case of knights from 7th ed, it is super easy-they are a "light" superheavy like a macharius-so 1 void shield and 2 structure points. as a "superheavy they can split fire as per normal rules in 5th.

Flyer rules from 7th work fine, we just augmented them a bit by using a mix of the 5th edition FW flyer rules to make them a little less durable in some way to balance out hard hard they are to hit. and more immersive. returning the 12" range penalties, needing 6+ to hit (for non AA) and only allowing jump units to assault them is countered by the immobilization result causing a crash instead of a "vector lock"

Tycho wrote:

My most intense games were with 5th. Whackiest games were with 7th.

Whackiest games could be a category all its own! I think my "whackiest games" came in 2nd. I've talked about it before, but I played an Orks vs Ultramarines game with an Armorcast Reiver titan on the marines side and a ton of Orks, a shok-attack gun on the other, as well as a random vortex grenade. Early on, the shok attack gun hit the Riever and rolled the result where the Snotlings get teleported through a warp tunnel and are completely terrified. They come out the other side clinging to the Titan driver's head, terrified and defecating/vomiting all over the place in fear. This caused the Titan to start moving out of control using the scatter dice.

It was about this time that one of us also threw a vortex grenade (I can't remember which army actually brought the grenade but it was probably the Ultramarines player - cheeky SOB that he was ) in the hopes of killing the titan so that it wouldn't stomp both armies to death. The roll was terrible and the grenade scattered an obscene distance in the exact opposite of the intended direction. So the game quickly devolved into a vortex grenade bouncing all over one flank, and a titan out of control on the other, with the two armies in between no longer really fighting, but rather trying to avoid death by vortex/titan stomp.

Good times. You don't have crazy games like that in any other edition but 2nd

If I had the power, I would totally bring back vortex grenades and scatter dice. They were such fun for precisely these reasons, I remember taking out a bunch of Chaos terminators with one but the smug look on my face was wiped off it as it veered back and took out my dreadnaught. Tricksy thing.

 flakpanzer wrote:
Really appreciate that people are still playing and enjoying older editions.

I would love to take some of the units from and later editions (some flyers and even Knights), and try and integrate them back to 5th edition. Having just gotten back into trying to play 5th, I don't think I have the overall familiarity with the system differences to do so. At least not yet.

While working on my own rewrite project I discovered that very little actually changed in the rulebook between editions; the army books change a lot more. If you want to back-fit later edition units into 5th you have the Apocalypse flyer/super-heavy rules and flyer/super-heavy stats and pricing to compare them to; roll 6HP back to 2SP and a Knight looks very like the original Brass Scorpion in stats and role, for instance (the Knight gets a directional Invulnerable save, WS/BS4, and D-strength melee, the Brass Scorpion is stuck on S10 melee but has four pretty hardcore guns (flamestorm cannons, demolisher cannon, and the 10 S6/AP3 shots from the tail)).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 aphyon wrote:
...Flyer rules from 7th work fine, we just augmented them a bit by using a mix of the 5th edition FW flyer rules to make them a little less durable in some way to balance out hard hard they are to hit. and more immersive. returning the 12" range penalties, needing 6+ to hit (for non AA) and only allowing jump units to assault them is countered by the immobilization result causing a crash instead of a "vector lock"

I find that GW underpriced and over-armoured their flyers when they made them skimmers in 5e, which left a lot of AA weapons not that useful (S6 AA that can only ever glance all the AV12 flyers floating around?). For my own project I've used a similar hybrid of older and newer flyer rules (movement from 6e/7e, snap-fire only, can't be charged except by people with the "can charge flyers" USR, 12" range penalties, crash on immobilization) and taken AV12 away from almost every flyer that had it.

I find it amazing how much Citadel fethed up implementing stuff that was in the game fairly tamely from Forge World.

Forge World:
- Lords of War since 3rd edition; only can be taken in games larger than 2000 points when you can take a second FOC detachment, and consume that entire FOC detachment.

- Flyers since 3rd edition; only really ever armor 10 (sometimes 11 on the front for the REALLY BEEFY flyers). Come in in the movement phase, are fired at by air defense weapons, and depart after engaging targets, because the board is too small to facilitate them maneuvering.

Citadel:
- Lords of War since Citadel took over: WOOOOO YEAH WE'RE everywhere! One at more than 2000 points? PFFFFFFFFFT, here's FOUR at 2000, let's build an IK codex and give baneblade formations to guard! In fact, you get a LoW, and you get an LoW, and you get an LoW, and you can use them at any points. Have fun everyone!

- Flyers since Citadel took them over: Armor 12 (because why would they have less armor than a rhino? Obviously an Apache gunship has more armor than a bradley *eyeroll*). Maneuvering with awkward 90-degree turns on a board. Jink is a thing now, because snapfiring at aircraft for non AD weapons wasn't bad enough! Oh and those AD weapons don't change strength at all so HAVE FUN GUYS WOOOO FLYERS

It's like if I carefully hand-sketched the first bit of a beautiful painting, and then my drunk brother wandered into the room and vomited on it before claiming it was his painting all along when some people seemed to comment that the sketch was pretty good if you can see past the vomit.

I find that GW underpriced and over-armoured their flyers when they made them skimmers in 5e

Yeah almost every flyer was AV 10 (even the superheavies like marauders) or 11 except the thunderhawk (12/12/10) and the manta. i unuderstand why they upped the armor when they made them skimmers since they would be so much easier to hit.

Forge World:
- Lords of War since 3rd edition; only can be taken in games larger than 2000 points when you can take a second FOC detachment, and consume that entire FOC detachment.

That was slightly changed. they could be taken in a 2,000 point army but counted as a single special detachment of up to 3 superheavies. of course there were a few differences other than just points alone that made it reasonable. although it was nice there was only 1 restriction on which superheavies you could take-they had to be faction aligned IE you could take any type of imperial superheavy with any imperial force but you could not take say an eldar titan or scorpion tank as an allied force.
1.you effectively had to get player permission to bring a superheavy or flyer so your opponent could know ahead of time to come ready to deal with them(and the AA units were actually quite good-firestorms, flakk trukks, etc....)
2.there was no such thing as "D" weapons as most titan weapons were just bigger versions of normal weapons. the turbo laser destructor was- heavy 2 small blast S9 AP2 and the vulcan mega bolter was an oversized assault cannon-heavy 10 twin-linked S6 AP4 rending.
3.even with split fire they just could not kill that much stuff until baneblades became a thing in plastic. i did a battle against a guy in 4th ed with a warhound titan, i just ignored it most of the game and killed the rest of his rather small conventional army. as 750 points sunk into the warhound (the normal cost up until 8th) made for a small 2k army.

D-weapons weren't that bad originally; they were rare (in the original Apoc book it was Titan-scale weapons only, turbo-lasers and pulsars and things like that), and they auto-penetrated/wounded with ID/+1 on the vehicle damage table. Couple with structure points and Gargantuan Creatures' rule where they only took d3 wounds from attacks that would inflict ID, and D was Titan-scale primary AT that would probably wreck anything smaller than a superheavy you hit but couldn't one-shot anything really big. I think the problem with D was as much making it really easy to get ahold of in 7e as anything else.

Yeah that was after apocalypse came out, before that they were like i said above. but i agree the apocalypse version no cover/auto pen rules doing 1 damage (but it was instant death for non-monsterous creatures) were good and those are the rules we use for D weapons.