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Made in gb
Calculating Commissar





England

Edit, wrong thread

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/01/29 13:22:42


 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 aphyon wrote:
Had a guy come in interested in playing oldhammer, as he wasn't certain which faction he was interested in i broke out the 40K porn...er i mean codexes.

This is a collection of stuff i have with me every game day in case we need them. i am only missing 3 physical codexes out of all the ones i consider to be the best of the 3rd-7th ed.

Spoiler:


Nice. I see you're missing the 3rd ed Necron book, is that one of the three? I have two copies of it. I'd offer you my spare, but it's in spanish.

I don't speak spanish, btw. Local store was shipped them by mistake and they gave one to me and for some reason I kept it for 20 years.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

It isn't missing, i only grab the codexes i feel best represent the faction. while the original 3rd ed codex was ok, it was really 1 dimensional as it lacked very many options. you were basically limited to 3 army builds-warrior spam, destroyer spam, or monoliths. especially given the phase out rules.
i have a couple duplicates in there because they add something different. the 4th ed space marine codex has the trait system, however generally the 5th ed codex is better. so i have a copy of each.

For what i am missing-i do not have a physical copy of custodes, knights or GSC from 7th ed(when they were added as complete new factions). i had a copy of 4th ed demons, but i gave that to the only guy at the store who plays a chaos demon army.





GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Wasn't 3rd edition also where Necrons first appeared as an army as well? So yeah that was a really limited edition in what they had. I think they just had the leader, Warriors, Scarabs, Impportals, Destroyers and the Monolith at the time.

A Blog in Miniature

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Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Necrons first appeared in 2nd with Lord, Scarabs, Destroyers and Warriors.

3rd ed added Heavy Destroyers, Wraiths, Immortals, Monoliths, Tomb Spiders, Pariahs, Flayed Ones and the C'tan.

Imo the 3rd ed incarnation is the best. Options were added later, but too much of the flavor was lost. Many units took a big downgrade, Pariahs dissapeared, and the army lost Phase Out. They gained named characters, but lost character.

As for spam, that was definitely a simple way to play them. But my favorite and possibly most successful army wasn't spammy at all. Lord, Immortals, Flayed Ones, Warriors, Wraiths, Heavy Destroyers and a Monolith iirc. I'll see if I can point it out . . .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/01/29 21:00:34


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Thing is Phase out was one of those things some loved and others hated (esp with how GW used it). I think in some ways knocking out a Necron army without killing anything didn't feel good to some players even though they won.


They did have that "we are undefeatable unless you make us phase out" issue. Which I think in a way kind of made them all or nothing on the phase out. It's a little like how earlier versions of Tyranid Synapse made them REALLY vulnerable to losing if you took out the synapse models which made the whole focus on attacking them purely about killing the synapse.

Thematic yes, but honestly I prefer how GW has moved toward synapse being more of a boon to have than a necessity.


A downgrade has happened for most armies as they've grown. Carnifex used to be the powerhouse of the Tyranid army, now they are not. But at the same time we now have Trygons and Exocrines and such. So for me its happy compromise.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Overread wrote:
Thing is Phase out was one of those things some loved and others hated (esp with how GW used it). I think in some ways knocking out a Necron army without killing anything didn't feel good to some players even though they won.
I mean . . . You definitely had to be killing models to trigger Phase Out . . .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/01/29 21:02:24


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in au
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Making Stuff






Under the couch

Yeah, Phase out worked for the original Necron Raiders list because you only had a handful of models and permanently killing any of them was hard. As the army was expanded and individual models became less resilient so that you could have more of them on the board, Phase Out became less important, increasingly gamey, and slowed things down as you had more models to track to calculate it.

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 insaniak wrote:
Yeah, Phase out worked for the original Necron Raiders list because you only had a handful of models and permanently killing any of them was hard. As the army was expanded and individual models became less resilient so that you could have more of them on the board, Phase Out became less important, increasingly gamey, and slowed things down as you had more models to track to calculate it.
^Did the Necron model count significantly change between 3rd and 5th edition though? 5th introduced more high-priced models like the Stalker, Bikes and other vehicles. Keeping track of dead Crons wouldn't have been a problem.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Did the Necron model count significantly change between 3rd and 5th edition though? 5th introduced more high-priced models like the Stalker, Bikes and other vehicles. Keeping track of dead Crons wouldn't have been a problem.

No, but from 2nd to 3rd it most certainly did. Phase Out should have been left out of the 3rd ed codex, and I'm leaving it out of my homebrew 2nd ed Codex. YMMV, obviously, but I'm not a fan of it with larger armies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/01/29 22:57:59


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 insaniak wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^Did the Necron model count significantly change between 3rd and 5th edition though? 5th introduced more high-priced models like the Stalker, Bikes and other vehicles. Keeping track of dead Crons wouldn't have been a problem.

No, but from 2nd to 3rd it most certainly did. Phase Out should have been left out of the 3rd ed codex, and I'm leaving it out of my homebrew 2nd ed Codex. YMMV, obviously, but I'm not a fan of it with larger armies.
Ahh, no way. Phase Out was critical to retaining the balance in the 3rd ed book. It allowed Necrons to punch above their weight in a number of categories, but gave the opposition an alternative method of fighting them. It helped make Necrons fight very differently than other factions, in particular Space Marines (whom they shared their statline with almost exactly). It also helped put a soft limit to the number of high-powered models you could take. Like you could take three Monoliths and a C'tan, but it cut into your overall Necron count considerably, and you'd start risking an easy Phase Out win for your opponent. Imo it was beautiful design.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 insaniak wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^Did the Necron model count significantly change between 3rd and 5th edition though? 5th introduced more high-priced models like the Stalker, Bikes and other vehicles. Keeping track of dead Crons wouldn't have been a problem.

No, but from 2nd to 3rd it most certainly did. Phase Out should have been left out of the 3rd ed codex, and I'm leaving it out of my homebrew 2nd ed Codex. YMMV, obviously, but I'm not a fan of it with larger armies.


It also made things like the monolith risky and was the final nail in the coffin for pariahs (which didn’t count towards Phase Out numbers)

If the Necron player took something cool but pricey, their opponent would just shred MEQ warriors unit the whole army vanished, which just encouraged warrior/destroyer spam.
   
Made in gb
Calculating Commissar





England

Phase Out is also a rule that became more negatively impactful over time. All units blocked line of sight by default in 3rd edition, so you had more ability to force the enemy to target your tough units not counted for Phase Out by screening the "Necron" units. In 4th target priority required shooting the closest unit unless passing a Ld test (easier for some armies than others). By 5th, neither factor was in effect. These edition changes also coincided with a general increase in lethality, so wiping the "Necron" units was easier.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
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Annandale, VA

 Insectum7 wrote:
Ahh, no way. Phase Out was critical to retaining the balance in the 3rd ed book. It allowed Necrons to punch above their weight in a number of categories, but gave the opposition an alternative method of fighting them. It helped make Necrons fight very differently than other factions, in particular Space Marines (whom they shared their statline with almost exactly). It also helped put a soft limit to the number of high-powered models you could take. Like you could take three Monoliths and a C'tan, but it cut into your overall Necron count considerably, and you'd start risking an easy Phase Out win for your opponent. Imo it was beautiful design.


I'm of two minds about Phase Out. It was a cool and flavorful rule, but had a tendency to produce curbstomps one way or the other. Either the Necron player got blown off the board and phased out, or you got overwhelmed by their up-front superior firepower.

I always liked how Battlefleet Gothic handled Necrons- they got to ignore a bunch of the normal limitations of the game and had some weird mechanics that gave them the feeling of technological superiority. But more importantly they also punched way above their cost, balanced out by extremely lopsided VP calculation, in which (IIRC) crippling a Necron ship (reduced to half health) was worth full VP and actually destroying it was worth triple VP. So Necron ships were scary as hell, but would tend to disengage once significantly damaged, and if you could actually take a couple out then you could win even if you got wiped out.

A lot of people didn't really enjoy that you-got-tabled-but-technically-won outcome, and I get it, but I feel it captured that feeling of sheer overwhelming superiority more elegantly than 40K's approach did. IMO it wasn't just the 5th Ed recharacterization of Necrons that killed the 'cosmic horror' feel, but also rebalancing them to the same power level as every other faction.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/01/30 16:08:41


   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

It took a while for this game to happen but we finally got around to it. on the fully painted eldar table to boot-

2k points house 5th ed.
dark angels (3.5 codex) with allied death watch
VS
eldar 4th ed codex with a few FW units.

the armies-

Dark angels-

Spoiler:


Eldar

Spoiler:


Nothing fancy with this one, got the deathwatch in early and they carried their weight.

taking down most of the large wraith guard unit and eventually both wraith lords. they finally got pushed back by the wraith knight failed their test and fell back out of close combat. allowing the knight to take ranged fire again. all told deathwatch was almost wiped out to a man, but they managed to kill 7 wraithguard, a wraith lord, wraith seer and a wraith knight (with a little help from the dark angels).

The Dark angels won the day for a change.

Spoiler:


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Spoiler:




This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/02/04 23:57:47






GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in gb
Calculating Commissar





England

Aphyon, it looks good fighting Eldar on that Eldar terrain.

Very thematic that Deathwatch made the difference in a fight against xenos.

 catbarf wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Ahh, no way. Phase Out was critical to retaining the balance in the 3rd ed book. It allowed Necrons to punch above their weight in a number of categories, but gave the opposition an alternative method of fighting them. It helped make Necrons fight very differently than other factions, in particular Space Marines (whom they shared their statline with almost exactly). It also helped put a soft limit to the number of high-powered models you could take. Like you could take three Monoliths and a C'tan, but it cut into your overall Necron count considerably, and you'd start risking an easy Phase Out win for your opponent. Imo it was beautiful design.


I'm of two minds about Phase Out. It was a cool and flavorful rule, but had a tendency to produce curbstomps one way or the other. Either the Necron player got blown off the board and phased out, or you got overwhelmed by their up-front superior firepower.

I always liked how Battlefleet Gothic handled Necrons- they got to ignore a bunch of the normal limitations of the game and had some weird mechanics that gave them the feeling of technological superiority. But more importantly they also punched way above their cost, balanced out by extremely lopsided VP calculation, in which (IIRC) crippling a Necron ship (reduced to half health) was worth full VP and actually destroying it was worth triple VP. So Necron ships were scary as hell, but would tend to disengage once significantly damaged, and if you could actually take a couple out then you could win even if you got wiped out.

A lot of people didn't really enjoy that you-got-tabled-but-technically-won outcome, and I get it, but I feel it captured that feeling of sheer overwhelming superiority more elegantly than 40K's approach did. IMO it wasn't just the 5th Ed recharacterization of Necrons that killed the 'cosmic horror' feel, but also rebalancing them to the same power level as every other faction.

I agree with this on the whole. I think asymmetric mechanics can make for very thematic games, but are also somewhat hard to balance and/or not particularly fun for some or many folks to play. I think it also is unfavorable to new players, as the specific tactics are often less intuitive.

But it is very cool.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

Aphyon, it looks good fighting Eldar on that Eldar terrain.

Very thematic that Deathwatch made the difference in a fight against xenos.


the entire point of playing classic 40K is because it is thematic, win or loose i would not have it any other way.

that aside frag cannons and special ammo for the deathwatch were brutally effective against wraith constructs as a counter to that high T value..... although my dreadnought did nothing after initially shooting his bike squad...we just sat there and missed each other a bunch in close combat





GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in gb
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I like that someone got a Helios and a Prometheus in the same force.

Only improvable by adding a Mk2b.

Nicely done sir!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..  
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

 SirDonlad wrote:
I like that someone got a Helios and a Prometheus in the same force.

Only improvable by adding a Mk2b.

Nicely done sir!


And they didn't die this time.

It is also not just any Prometheus it is a relic of the chapter-Angelis Imperator- which is why i painted it in the original legion colors-

At one point i had one of every land raider variant...then they made a bunch more. i stopped at 5.






GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in gb
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus







Do it frankly; they're only getting more expensive as time goes by.

I'm on that road too tbh
But also all the weapon variants of the Mechanicum Land Raider which isn't supported any more thanks to the Macrocarid Explorator superseding the MLR.
Which is now OOP...


IronMaster made a very nice STL of upgrade components for a Proteus LR to make the mythical Tartarus pattern LR..
https://cults3d.com/en/3d-model/game/tartaros-pattern-land-raider-conversion

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..  
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

True, i thought they were to expensive at $45 when i got mine, now my crusader is selling new from GW at $110 las time i checked.



Of course i have not bought a GW model since i picked up the aeronautica vendettas for my epic scale armies back when they were new.






GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in gb
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus







jeeez...

And with the prevalence of Forgeryworld kits...

I bought a Mk2b a few years ago and when i disassembled it the upgrade parts were all a pure white colour and paint didn't stick to it properly - decided it was a fake and split the kit for MLRs.
That stung a bit because i paid decent money for it.
Its looking like FW could make a very nice slice of cash re-releasing LR variants with certificates of authenticity.
Id pay ~£150 per model for that and not feel burned.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..  
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

been a while since i broke this out-

epic scale Iyanden craftworld force VS imperial guard. in full scale terms it would be like 8k per player facing off. even at epic scale it was a slog of a fight.

Both sides lost their titans, but the eldar really started pushing the guard back at the end.

Spoiler:


Spoiler:


Spoiler:


Spoiler:












GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

A bit of a nail biter again with this one. 3.5 chaos VS 3.5 dark angels.

we had 5 objectives.

The game went a full 7 turns and even though i lost my helios turn 1 i still put up a good fight. at the end it was 2 objectives VS 1 in the favor of chaos.

In the process neither of us had much left on the table. so a good fight to the end.


Spoiler:


Spoiler:


Spoiler:


Spoiler:


Spoiler:






GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

Insta army-

one of the guys at the store has been a fan of 40K for a while but he has never had the money to get into it. we scored him a deal from an estate sale for about 2,400 points of 4th ed black templar.

So to get his feet wet with his very first game of oldhammer 40K we put together a 2K list of face my dark angels from the 3.5 mini dex.

He put together a pretty solid 2k list with crusader squads in land raiders, Grimaldis, emperors champion, venerable dread in a drop pod and some terminators.

Spoiler:



Imagine my shock and surprise that by turn 3 he pretty well had every one of his units in the game locked up in close combat. well except some of my plasma gunners since i had to kill a couple of those myself or it would not have been a normal game.

It was a pretty hard fight and he lost lots of marines, but he still managed to kill a couple dreadnoughts his vow for this game was "accept any challenge" giving him preferred enemy against me (hit on 3+ in CC regardless of weapon skill).

the game ended with the dice roll at the end of turn 5 giving him 4 points to my 2 as i only managed to kill one of his dreads and a land raider. he killed 2 of my dreads, and the last one with it's drop pod was not on the table yet and counted as destroyed for victory conditions (mostly because i forgot about it).

The furry crusades are in full swing now-

Spoiler:


Spoiler:


Spoiler:







GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

Did some fun training games as i walked some new players and returning players through oldhammer

the first game was a sisters (3rd ed witch hunters) VS a black templar force(4th ed codex).....one hell of a way to have a break up.

the game was pretty brutal. the black templar player won on objectives with only 7 models left on the table-the emperors champion (locked in a fight with the cannoness) both land raider crusaders and 4 terminators.

the SOB side was only marginally better with about 10 models left on the table between troops and vehicles. the game was a 2k match that went to turn 6.

to shoehorn in the new models we let the sisters player run his predators as relic predators. as it best represented their loadout.

Spoiler:


Spoiler:


Spoiler:



The second game was much faster as it was a reset of black templar VS 3.5 iron warriors.

The templars went first and started out strong....taking out most of the enemy infantry and even killing a tank.....but then the obliterators came in.....after the smoke cleared the templars had 3 infantry left on the table. facing 2 tanks, a basilisk, a warpsmith, and 5 obliterators.

Spoiler:









GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
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 aphyon wrote:
4e black templar VS 3.5 iron warriors
A pretty rough introduction to oldhammer :p

Though templars were quite the gunline themselves after the 5e revision, which is a weird thing for a marine faction with no devastators or artillery units.
   
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washington state USA

That's why we prefer the 4th ed codex it feels more like BT than anything since.





GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
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Posts with Authority






Speaking of older editions, I'm planning to start playing Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine 1st edition again, but with modern minis, once I get enough of them collected. Would talking about those qualify for this thread? Or need I take my ramblings elsewhere, since its not strictly a Warhammer fork..?

"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems" 
   
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washington state USA

That's the kind of thing this topic is about-BFG, epic, necromunda, 1st ed-7th ed , space hulk etc , post pictures if you can.






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