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I am underwhelmed. I have not played the rpg or even seen the few pics of Orgoth so did not have any real expectations. But, this is just not doing it.

The Fortnight aesthetic that Riot Quest is trying was bad enough, but this is even more jarring. And the NNM was the worst choice possible for showcase models. I honestly can't tell where some models stop and others begin.

These are just bad.

I think I've mentioned it before, but I think PP/WMHDs is a game that was running up to the limits of its design space. I think mechanically, and maybe even thematically, there wasn't a lot of room for them to keep adding things to established factions without stepping on the toes of things that were already there. I think this was a big reason for the push towards theme forces, as it opened the door for them to introduce what was essentially duplication into a given faction (for example, Trencher Long Gunners vs Long Gunner Infantry) without really creating redundancy because they were treating "themes" as factions rather than the factions themselves. While that might work from a game design perspective I don't think its something that sits well with consumers and doesn't necessarily generate more sales, etc.

Likewise, they seemed to regular push a new limited faction, but that only gets you so far. From experience most players of these games are going to dedicate themselves to 1-2 factions instead of going to buy into every new thing that comes across. Its basically the DLC/expansion effect thats common to the video and board gaming industry. You might sell a million copies of the base game, but DLC and expansions will usually only sell something like 10% of that volume. If you consider the "core factions" as being the "base game", and the limited factions (Cephalyx, Infernals, Crucible Guard, Orgoth, etc.) as expansions, then you can see how PP might be mis-prioritizing its resources, but the only solid explanation for why they are doing that is because they don't have a ton of design space left to do interesting stuff within the existing factions, and therefore they are trying to open more design space by creating new factions instead of growing the existing ones further.

I think a big mistake and a potential reason for the IPs overall stagnation was that while they grew out WMHDs depth wise, they haven't done much to grow it breadth wise. They have kept the playerbase and community focused on engaging with their game and setting in a very narrow and limited sense, i.e. their flagship miniatures games. While they have dabbled with things like those really crappy boxed board games they did in the past and riot quest, these were really just sideshows to the tabletop game proper. The only serious effort they have made to an adjacent game system in the same IP has been IKRPG, but even that was generally very limited in terms of the effort they put into it, it wasn't until the latest 5e based re-release that they seem dedicated to making a serious effort to continuously support it long term with content. Contrast this to GW and 40k - the flagship is 40k proper, of course, but GW gives the community plenty of other ways to interact with the setting on tabletop: Aeronautica Imperialis, Necromunda, Adeptus Titanicus, etc. I think PP made a mistake in not trying to expand into other areas, I think a naval combat type game in the setting could have done pretty well (and filled a much desired fantasy naval niche that GW vacated years ago when they axed Man O War), likewise a smaller scale mass-battle miniatures game might have been an interesting opportunity to expand out the lore and setting with some of the larger weapons of war that have been mentioned in the background but never really given much detail. Likewise a more focused game based on the core WMHDs system set in the war against the Orgoth occupation could have been interesting as a Horus Heresy type game.

But thats just my 2 cents, I think eventually people get burned out and tired of these games. In the 40k ecosystem if you get sick of playing 40k a lot of people jump into a dalliance with Kill Team or Necromunda, some jump to Horus Heresy, others to Titanicus/Aeronautica, etc. It allows you to capture dollars from your consumers and keep them focused on your product while they recharge and recover from burnout before jumping back into the core game. WMHDs doesn't really have much like that to keep people interesting. When I got tired of playing 3-4 games of WMHDs/week, I just stopped playing WMHDs and rotated to a different game from a different manufacturer that allowed me to recover from my burnout and have a different experience - at that point PP basically lost my attention and the regular weekly/monthly purchases that I made with them. While at the time I told myself it would just be temporary and I'd get back to WMHDs, the truth is its been about 5 years (basically slightly longer than mk3 has been around) since I've touched the game or had desire to purchase anything for it, let alone play. Them losing my attention cost them, because as anyone who knows anything about marketing and sales will tell you, its easier to sell something to repeat customers and people whos attention you have as a brand than it is new customers and people whos attention you don't have. By losing me, PP basically has to pay the cost of new customer acquisition to re-acquire me, whereas if they had held my attention with a different product (and I don't mean MonPoc - it looks cool but its a different game and IP and one which doesn't automatically appeal to people heavily invested into the WMHDs IP) they would already have me as an existing customer and would be more readily able to convince me to make purchases than they would be otherwise.

I know its difficult for smaller companies in this industry to maintain and support multiple parallel game/product lines like this (it is part of what did in Spartan Games, after all, but that is an extreme example of what this looks like), but I get massive red flags in terms of longevity from any established or semi-established miniatures game publisher that only really has a single supported game line. The burnout and/or community exodus will eventually come for one reason or another, and if that exodus and burnout results in that player base migrating to a competitors product they have a very high mountain to climb in terms of re-attracting those lost customers - the game isn't necessarily dead per se but its unlikely for most publishers to recover from that and restore the game and its community to the same levels that it was in the past. GW was able to do that following the 6th/7th downturn in large part because its an industry giant with a lot of visibility and money to throw at the problem, but a company like PP is going to have to work harder to do the same.

The game and community just became overly rigid as the focus on the game became more and more about competitive perfection. Some of this I do find a fault of the rules, but a lot of it was just the complete unwillingness to play anything except two full 75 point armies in Steamroller scenarios. It meant new players had an impossible hurdle to get in and old players stumbled as soon as they got old enough for work or family to get in the way. I know a lot of people that had their first kid and just at that moment found a change in the game so impossible to deal with they couldn't keep playing.

To a degree.... I totally get it. Robust scenarios were largely regulated to niche skirmish games and army games were about the deathmatch which Warmachine does overall well, but with some big issues without Steamroller. Steamroller is fantastic, but really does not scale well. It's VERY easy to have a bad experience trying to change the parameters of that 75 point 2 army Steamroller railing, which is a big fault of PP but certainly something the community amplified.

It's a big reason why Brawlmachine is just so important to the health of the game. It's a place for new players, sure, but its also a release valve for old players who just want to get in a quick game or two. I've had so much success both in getting new players and bringing back old with it and I hope its something PP really appreciates the importance of. At the very least, they were smart enough to bake it into the core of Warcaster's rules.

grahamdbailey wrote:
They're missing the baroque faces on armour that really scream 'Orgoth', especially moticible on the 'Jack's ... They're just not as menacing as they should be. These are the mythical Big Bad of the Warmahordes world, and they're nowhere near as menacing or unique as the Infernal, or even the Grymkin.

Pretty much my initial feels. That and I get very strong Warcaster vibes from the release, maybe pointing to where their design team is at these days. I was a little surprised it wasn't somehow a dual release for the two games, but there's still time. The NMM paint job is absolutely part of that vibe.

Did I read right that this is headed to Kickstarter? Bleh. I want the Siege Tarask (for a Skorne conversion ) but I don't like PP's KS, nor do I want anything else from the release. Which is telling, as I've mined both the Infernal and Grymkin releases for multiple minis to use in conversions and other games.

EDIT: Tho I saw it mentioned that there's more coming for the faction beyond this first batch? So some hope of at least cool stuff, if not the faction design we'd hoped for.

EDIT2: Oh right, they talk about the flying cav in the video, and those lizard-birds do look nice. I guess most of all it's the 'jacks that are just straight outta Warcaster for me, and therefore forgettable.

Shift from metal to dubious quality resins and high premium prices killed it for me. I dont mind paying but I do care about the quality of the minis.

 Boss Salvage wrote:

Did I read right that this is headed to Kickstarter? Bleh. I want the Siege Tarask (for a Skorne conversion ) but I don't like PP's KS, nor do I want anything else from the release. Which is telling, as I've mined both the Infernal and Grymkin releases for multiple minis to use in conversions and other games.

The KSers are just a preorder/distribution system. Anything in them will be available at retail a month later and likely cheaper. They're really only worth it if you really want to be all in on what they're offering so don't sweat it. They'll be available after.

 LunarSol wrote:
The KSers are just a preorder/distribution system. Anything in them will be available at retail a month later and likely cheaper. They're really only worth it if you really want to be all in on what they're offering so don't sweat it. They'll be available after.

Sure, and I was trying to figure out how long after a KS ends did Warcaster stuff hit MiniatureMarket / wherever. Given the dearth of KS bennies, I guess it's best to just move on with life and wait it out.

 Boss Salvage wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
The KSers are just a preorder/distribution system. Anything in them will be available at retail a month later and likely cheaper. They're really only worth it if you really want to be all in on what they're offering so don't sweat it. They'll be available after.

Sure, and I was trying to figure out how long after a KS ends did Warcaster stuff hit MiniatureMarket / wherever. Given the dearth of KS bennies, I guess it's best to just move on with life and wait it out.

Usually 6-8 months to reach backers, hitting general distribution a month or two later. Collision Course ended in early November 2020 and hit backers April 2021. I didn't back it and was able to pick up the stuff for it in the May and June release windows. Thousand Worlds ended late July 2021 and has hit a couple delays but is expected to reach backers this month I believe and was scheduled to be in stores this month and next prior to the omicron delays. Riot Quest has more or less followed a similar timeline.

 Boss Salvage wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
The KSers are just a preorder/distribution system. Anything in them will be available at retail a month later and likely cheaper. They're really only worth it if you really want to be all in on what they're offering so don't sweat it. They'll be available after.

Sure, and I was trying to figure out how long after a KS ends did Warcaster stuff hit MiniatureMarket / wherever. Given the dearth of KS bennies, I guess it's best to just move on with life and wait it out.

Our LGS did a retailer pledge for us, got the models about two weeks after they fulfilled in the US (which is very early for Europe after the regular distribution system decided to become difficult back in 2017-2018) and sold those in the store (basically our kind-of-preorders paid for the rest of the stock, so that went as pure profit). Then they did a reorder a few months later to stock up. So it depends a lot on how your local stores have handled the retailer pledge. I think Miniature Market did a retailer pledge (don't quote me on this) so that the models were available in the shop at about the same time KS backers got their.

some non-studio pics out in the wild now, and honestly the models to me at least look better in them

The models etc look great IMO but PP has once again missed the boat with this.

Who, outside of the existing WM/H player base knows this is going on? Where's the marketing? Where's the coms messages? Where the engagement with the wargaming community to drive excitement and interest?

This is the first new faction for the game in ages and I have literally seen nothing apart from a few links on PPs FB page.

Sunno wrote:
The models etc look great IMO but PP has once again missed the boat with this.

Who, outside of the existing WM/H player base knows this is going on? Where's the marketing? Where's the coms messages? Where the engagement with the wargaming community to drive excitement and interest?

This is the first new faction for the game in ages and I have literally seen nothing apart from a few links on PPs FB page.

Fully agree, In the old days when PP was popular they could rely on fans to spread the word but today theres not many people talking about it anymore.
Last awareness I had about PP was 3 years ago on Salute event when I have seen blisters and boxes dumped on discount bins in several stands.
Not exactly a good sign of a healthy game.

It is painful to see how low PP have fallen. Used to really enjoy Warmachine and Hordes in Mark1 and 2 days.

They release a brand new faction to their game, one that is crucial to the games lore and setting... and it is received with a weak 'meh'.

Think the writing is on the wall for PP.

 stonehorse wrote:
It is painful to see how low PP have fallen. Used to really enjoy Warmachine and Hordes in Mark1 and 2 days.

They release a brand new faction to their game, one that is crucial to the games lore and setting... and it is received with a weak 'meh'.

Think the writing is on the wall for PP.

That is my read on this too. Not happy about it.

I've seen more chatter on other platforms, but a lot of people seem to be waiting for rules to be revealed and more fluff beyond the small amounts they've put on on PP site so far for the new orgoth

 stonehorse wrote:
It is painful to see how low PP have fallen. Used to really enjoy Warmachine and Hordes in Mark1 and 2 days.

They release a brand new faction to their game, one that is crucial to the games lore and setting... and it is received with a weak 'meh'.

Think the writing is on the wall for PP.

Iv come back to the game after a break due to covid and moving house. I have to say, the GAME right now is excellent. Its PP and their decisions and the effect it has on the community that is causing all the issues. Which makes me extra sad in a way.

PP just needs to do some basic things and the game would get back on track and grow rapidly again here in the UK. I remain v critical of PP right now but I still remain hopeful that they may turn it around one day soon. All it needs is 1 or 2 people empowered people in the company with vision and an understanding of what needs to get done. it wouldn't even need that much money. Just somebody who an write proper press releases and network with influencers would be gold for the company.

The prices are another killer. GW prices plus, for poorer quality metal and resin models. They really need to shift manufacturering to plastic, properly, and engage with distribution partners outside of the US.

Thats not going to happen, they are doing the opposite of that and trying to bring everything in-house in the US because when they were engaged with foreign manufacturing partners they got screwed and had their molds stolen.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Thats not going to happen, they are doing the opposite of that and trying to bring everything in-house in the US because when they were engaged with foreign manufacturing partners they got screwed and had their molds stolen.

And that, of course, is completely their choice. But it does mean that they're effectively pricing themselves out of the market for the rest of the world, unfortunately.

grahamdbailey wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Thats not going to happen, they are doing the opposite of that and trying to bring everything in-house in the US because when they were engaged with foreign manufacturing partners they got screwed and had their molds stolen.

And that, of course, is completely their choice. But it does mean that they're effectively pricing themselves out of the market for the rest of the world, unfortunately.

To be fair this has been a thing for a while. their plastics and resins were ridiculous price wise anyway. Everblight chosen make gw appear reasonable. Even with a discount.

I miss the days when they were metal or gtfo. :p

I haven't bought new PP models for years now. The prices are impossible to justify for me. It's been second hand models or alternative ones for me exclusively.

Cyel wrote:
I haven't bought new PP models for years now. The prices are impossible to justify for me. It's been second hand models or alternative ones for me exclusively.

Fair. I would, very occasionally, for a solo or something though I prefer keeping an eye on the 2nd hand market for whatever I'm after.

That said the last time I really bought anything was lockdown 1 and I'm pretty sure apart from some trencher long gunners and the junior-sorscha solo (that I genuinely could not find otherwise)it was all 2nd hand.

The last purchase I made from PP was a few days ago for Trollbloods stuff to make Beer Pigs for my Norse Blood Bowl team... and oof, I forget how expensive they are.

My last purchase of PP stuff was also about a week ago, 3 models for $90+ from a discounter, which included the ugly AND expensive af blight archon. Because this game is about super solos and apparently I'm trying to play this game again

So yea, I don't disagree on the pricing, PP is really rough for the quality and number of sculpts you get. The Infernal Howlers are the ones that slapped me the hardest - $80 for 5 not all that impressive or large minis in only 3 sculpts? Blarf.

I do however really like PP's resin, more than their metal, although both are good. Honestly I trust it more than their plastic, as I was bit really hard by the mess that was their restic back when, which I know isn't a thing any more but hey, grudges and all that.

The small amount of HIPS stuff I got (resculpt of behemoth, rager and grolar) were excellent.

That said I have a soft spot for their metals. Always will.

Have 2 stripped squads of doomreavers and 2 squads of iron fangs I'm.gonna repaint. Also some old metal sisters repentia converted with doomblades because I wanted some female doomies. They count too, right? :p

The resins are excellent, just too expensive for 5 or 10 man units. That's the fundamental problem with the metals as well. Their models are great until you start talking about an army of them. This bleeds into the problems with a lack of good starter products and other issues making the game work at its current scale with the current state of the industry.

Voss wrote:
Honestly I was under the impression they would never do them. They were consigned to history on another continent. And probably for the best if they had stayed.

They did say as much actually. Multiple times.

The minis and the aesthetics feel... very uninspired. If I were to see these guys in a void, "orgoth" would be at the deep bottom of what I'd say they were.

It's the bug eyes and the huuuge shoulder plates and lack of trousers for me. Half plate and fur is a really weird look, especially without trousers.

Didn't even notice the relative lack of pants until you mentioned it haha. Yeah, that does look a bit off.

Echoes of MotU: