Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Because Heresy is popular. And those coming over from Heresy 1st Edition have provably and demonstrably Deep Pockets.

Not everyone. It was pretty cheap to get into HH back when Calth/Prospero dropped and a lot of stuff for HH was easily kitbashed/used from 40k kits. For stuff that has now been changed to plastic kits sure those were expensive but the vast majority of HH players I knew were very much slow growing their armies which is one of the reasons it died in our group. People could expand a 40k army with Battleforces or Start Collections, less so with HH. Most never went near FW (one member of our current group had only GW kits in their army even before the new box dropped) and people generally avoided units that had models from FW unless they could easily be converted with 40k parts like Templar Brethren or Dark Angels biker units wearing MkVI armour.

 MarcusConstantin wrote:
While I don't doubt that there are quit a few people who would buy one, I highly doubt that enough people would buy a plastic Thawk to make producing it profitable, much less profitable enough for GW to consider it.
I mean besides the high price of the model most people will struggle with space to put it.

Won't say it's impossible, I know better than that, but as Captain Sparrow said impropable.

Instead I would prefer for them to release kits that are actually useful in a normal game, like the rest of the heavy weapons, the contemptor, assault marines/upgrades (I hope for different poses in a fully new set) etc.

I would definitely buy at least 3 Thunderhawks...one for the EC, one for a 40K SW force, and one for...well...future plans.

How many resin TH kits do you think GW sold? 5k? 10k?
And what price would you reallistically imagine for a plastic kit? £200? £250? £300?
I still don't see that as viable.

Regardless of having one or more large kits in plastic, I still want them to be releasing more basic sets rather than almost useless centerpiece models.

 MarcusConstantin wrote:
How many resin TH kits do you think GW sold? 5k? 10k?
And what price would you reallistically imagine for a plastic kit? £200? £250? £300?
I still don't see that as viable.

Regardless of having one or more large kits in plastic, I still want them to be releasing more basic sets rather than almost useless centerpiece models.

*points at baneblade kit*

 Sacredroach wrote:

 MarcusConstantin wrote:
While I don't doubt that there are quit a few people who would buy one, I highly doubt that enough people would buy a plastic Thawk to make producing it profitable, much less profitable enough for GW to consider it.
I mean besides the high price of the model most people will struggle with space to put it.

Won't say it's impossible, I know better than that, but as Captain Sparrow said impropable.

Instead I would prefer for them to release kits that are actually useful in a normal game, like the rest of the heavy weapons, the contemptor, assault marines/upgrades (I hope for different poses in a fully new set) etc.

I would definitely buy at least 3 Thunderhawks...one for the EC, one for a 40K SW force, and one for...well...future plans.

The argument isn't that no one would buy one or even multiples, the argument is that the collective sales may not make it worthwhile. It's a lot of sprues, big sprues, and if they sell only 1 to every 50th marine player on average they'll need to cost those sprues high to make their money back. It wouldn't surprise me if it ends up £300+, the Monolith and Knights are around £100 and I think a Thunderhawk would be at least 3 times the parts/sprues/size.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 MarcusConstantin wrote:
How many resin TH kits do you think GW sold? 5k? 10k?
And what price would you reallistically imagine for a plastic kit? £200? £250? £300?
I still don't see that as viable.

Regardless of having one or more large kits in plastic, I still want them to be releasing more basic sets rather than almost useless centerpiece models.

*points at baneblade kit*

The Baneblade is tiny compared to a Thunderhawk. It'd be like saying a pickup truck is too big for city driving and using a compact car as a counter argument, lol.

I like the *idea* of a Thunderhawk, but in practice, yeah, no thanks.

If you look at the spartan sprue and how it's broken up, you can extrapolate the fuselage of stormeagle, fire raptor, T hawk gunship/transporter. Wouldn't take as many sprues as you'd think if you're distributing that sprue across multiple kits.

They're gonna get a ton of mileage out of the shared Spartan/Rhino sprue across the typhon/cerebus/LR Proteus & deimos rhino variants.

How much sprues aircraft would share with tanks?

It's big hard to store with close to zero gaming use. Are there that many who pay 300 just to sit on shelves?

tneva82 wrote:
How much sprues aircraft would share with tanks?

It's big hard to store with close to zero gaming use. Are there that many who pay 300 just to sit on shelves?

I guess as a comparison there's things like the 1/24 Typhoon from Airfix and 1/32 Mosquito from Tamiya. They are ballpark similar size and people buy them just to build and display.

But I feel the market for people who want to display a WW2 aircraft in their homes is much bigger than the market for people who want to display a Space Marine flyer, especially given the Space Marine flyer is likely going to be 2 times the price. Maybe I'm wrong.

I could care less about gaming use(even tho I would play games with it) I'd prefer to use its scale for a diorama or display.

Racerguy180 wrote:
I could care less about gaming use(even tho I would play games with it) I'd prefer to use its scale for a diorama or display.

100% this. I don't play marines and I would buy a plastic TH just to have and paint up. I much prefer FW knights/Titans and Ordinatus but hot damn I'd love a Thunderhawk just to have. I'd love to have a old metal one but that white whale pipe dream is long gone. I think most of us lost out on the chance for one of those long ago.

Remember that there are plenty of people who buy box after box - hundreds or thousands of dollars worth - of plastic kits and just add them to a pile of unbuilt models taking up space.
If GW told people to buy a plastic Thunderhawk, they'd sell plenty enough.

Just need to consider general sales theory as well as the dedication of hobbyists.

Prestige items do sell, despite hefty price tags. I mean, consider Apple’s “because we made it, and we’re hip” price premium over comparable products.

Something the size of a Thunderhawk is a project in and of itself. Probably a month’s worth of building, modelling and painting/detailing. With the end result being not just a usable item within the game, but a kit sufficiently detailed and visually interesting to be a display piece in its own right.

Roughly comparable kind of item? The Super Star Destroyer for Armada. £165-£175 according to a cursory Google. Not that commonly usable in the game, but usable all the same, and a hell of a display piece. Perhaps too rich a price just for display, yet….it sells.

A Thunderhawk has a potentially huge market. Every Space Marine player. Every CSM player. Every Heresy player. Yes there will be a fair cross over between those groups. But you’re still talking tens of thousands of Nerds already well used to their hobby being cash intensive. And even where a given customer exists in all three of the groups above? They may still buy more than one if they play different chapters/legions. Folk who’s mainjam is building and paint are more likely to shell out for the plastic version over resin, and we still see FW kits bought just for painting and display.

Hell, I'd buy 3, 1 Salamanders, 1 EC, 1 terrain. Maybe 4 as basing for my Metallica

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A Thunderhawk has a potentially huge market. Every Space Marine player. Every CSM player. Every Heresy player.

Yeah, see, I don't think all those people are going to want it.

(Almost) every Space Marine player on Dakka? Sure, Dakka is full of the nerdiest nerds to ever have nerded. I dunno if your average Space Marine player wants one, especially when they see the price tag and realise how big an 19" long and 17" wide model actually is.

The operative is potential. That’s why I used it. As it kind of acknowledges it’s…potential. And not guaranteed.

From a marketing point of view, it’s also a Stunt Piece. A real eye catcher and attention grabber.

Right now, Heresy fans seem pretty happy with what we know to be coming, though GW could do with cracking on with the releases. Price is coming down, kits are virtually indistinguishable from their resin forebears. And people are dropping enough moolah for items to rapidly sell out.

Something chunky like the Thunderhawk can be a release to reinvigorate the system as and when.

A significant investment in itself due to the likely number of sprues required. But….a desirable and long awaited kit it remains. And once someone has one, they may get further invested in Heresy and get closer to an army worth of painted minis.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The operative is potential. That’s why I used it. As it kind of acknowledges it’s…potential. And not guaranteed.

You might as well say everyone on earth is a potential customer. Theoretically true, practically meaningless.

Cobblers and you know it.

Thunderhawks are a Space Marine item, yes? And as a gaming piece, the potential market is largely, but not solely, limited to the number of folk playing that army, yes?

Even if your sales ratio is 1 in 1,000, your potential market remains higher if it’s an already popular army. And I suspect the ratio would be considerably better than the 1 in 1,000 I used for demonstration purposes. Even 1 in 100 ratio is solid, and I kind of suspect, but of course cannot prove, sales of a plastic Thunderhawk kit would be significantly better as a ratio.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Cobblers and you know it.

Thunderhawks are a Space Marine item, yes? And as a gaming piece, the potential market is largely, but not solely, limited to the number of folk playing that army, yes?

Even if your sales ratio is 1 in 1,000, your potential market remains higher if it’s an already popular army. And I suspect the ratio would be considerably better than the 1 in 1,000 I used for demonstration purposes. Even 1 in 100 ratio is solid, and I kind of suspect, but of course cannot prove, sales of a plastic Thunderhawk kit would be significantly better as a ratio.

Except it has no real gaming value. Almost half the size of army, then transported stuff inside adds up. Would need stuff on ground.

You don't see warhounds walking around either...

The thing is just a display piece. Likely couple hundred pounds. It will be targeted at those who just collect stuff for not playing.

It's not high in priority. GW has stuff to put on plastic for years if not decades with bigger potential target base.

Plastic assault squads/despoiler squads > Thunderhawks at this point. Lets get the basic troop choices available first.

 Moopy wrote:
Plastic assault squads/despoiler squads > Thunderhawks at this point. Lets get the basic troop choices available first.

I don’t think anyone is expecting or asking for a plastic THawk as the next release or anything.

tneva82 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Cobblers and you know it.

Thunderhawks are a Space Marine item, yes? And as a gaming piece, the potential market is largely, but not solely, limited to the number of folk playing that army, yes?

Even if your sales ratio is 1 in 1,000, your potential market remains higher if it’s an already popular army. And I suspect the ratio would be considerably better than the 1 in 1,000 I used for demonstration purposes. Even 1 in 100 ratio is solid, and I kind of suspect, but of course cannot prove, sales of a plastic Thunderhawk kit would be significantly better as a ratio.

Except it has no real gaming value. Almost half the size of army, then transported stuff inside adds up. Would need stuff on ground.

You don't see warhounds walking around either...

The thing is just a display piece. Likely couple hundred pounds. It will be targeted at those who just collect stuff for not playing.

It's not high in priority. GW has stuff to put on plastic for years if not decades with bigger potential target base.

That’s another very narrow view of things.

No real gaming value is…..an entirely unsubstantiated claim, based solely on your opinion.

Have a look at how much long term Heresy players are prepared to spend, and what size of games they’re happy to play. Both are significantly more than 40K, possibly because organised events tend to be more narrative style mega battles.

And we very much do see Warhounds walking around. In Heresy armies.

It’s a very different beast to 40K.

From person experience, no you don't. Apocalypse games sure, but any class of Titan is still a rarity in HH because they bring a different level of game.
Two members of our group have a Titan each (one Reaver and one Warhound) and even the Warhound rarely gets used because its such a step up from other Superheavies. The guy was begging us for months to do Titan fight after Titan fight and we only said yes twice because it just wasn't fun.
As for how much HH players are prepared to spend compared to 40k players it balances out over time (for the most part because Aussies exist). I'm not sure there's ample evidence to suggest that one camp spends more than the other.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
That’s another very narrow view of things.

No real gaming value is…..an entirely unsubstantiated claim, based solely on your opinion.

Have a look at how much long term Heresy players are prepared to spend, and what size of games they’re happy to play. Both are significantly more than 40K, possibly because organised events tend to be more narrative style mega battles.

And we very much do see Warhounds walking around. In Heresy armies.

It’s a very different beast to 40K.

You really don't see models like that frequently, at least I don't, even though there's a few people around that own them and play Heresy. They tend to sit on the display shelf. Probably get used as terrain pieces more than actual game pieces.

And yes, some people happily bought resin Thunderhawks at £550 from FW, that doesn't automatically mean there's going to be a big market for people buying plastic Thunderhawks at £300. It's still a lot of money, it's still going to be a big time investment to build, it's still going to be a pain in the arse to transport to the local club for a game, and it's still going to take up a large amount of storage/display shelf space in your house. It'll just be a bit lighter and you won't have to deal with FW's quality control.

I refer you to my explanation of potential market, and sale to player ratio.

A cheaper, plastic Thunderhawk has a greater appeal than the £549 resin Thunderhawk. And there’s a decent sized potential market that even a 1 sale to 100 player ratio is still going to be worth it’s while.

Remember. At no point have I said “if it’s plastic, everyone will buy five”. I’m simply saying a cheaper, plastic Thunderhawk will have an inherently larger market than the resin one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for frequency seen? I accept it’s probably going to vary area to area. My gaming circle all have pretty healthy disposable income. We’re not 1% by any stretch, but we’ve enough we can splash out on big shiny things. And sure, that’s far from representative of the wider market.

But ask not “how many own now”. Ask how many would buy one if the price was better (£250 or £300 is still better than £549), and the material was more forgiving.

Because that’s going to be the tipping point. Titans and Thunderhawks may be an escalation too far right now, because their price and complexity can be too much for some (have I mentioned I bloody hate working in resin?). But, make them more accessible? The escalation issue is mitigated, because the kits themselves become less exclusive.

Frankly, the most realistic and biggest audience for a plastic Thunderhawk is going to be the whales that impulsively buy five, or ten, and then never open any besides a single one, that they're probably never going to paint, either.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Frankly, the most realistic and biggest audience for a plastic Thunderhawk is going to be the whales that impulsively buy five, or ten, and then never open any besides a single one, that they're probably never going to paint, either.

I suspect the main market will be colelctors myself

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Frankly, the most realistic and biggest audience for a plastic Thunderhawk is going to be the whales that impulsively buy five, or ten, and then never open any besides a single one, that they're probably never going to paint, either.

I think a large portion of the whales have already bought the resin Thunderhawk.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Frankly, the most realistic and biggest audience for a plastic Thunderhawk is going to be the whales that impulsively buy five, or ten, and then never open any besides a single one, that they're probably never going to paint, either.

There's something pretty depressing when you go onto sites like reddit and people are getting hundreds of upvotes simply for their latest purchase - and you look into their account history and its nothing but boxes, no painted or assembled figures. Just people addicted to buying junk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Frankly, the most realistic and biggest audience for a plastic Thunderhawk is going to be the whales that impulsively buy five, or ten, and then never open any besides a single one, that they're probably never going to paint, either.

I think a large portion of the whales have already bought the resin Thunderhawk.

And they will go onto buy the plastic one as well.

 blood reaper wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Frankly, the most realistic and biggest audience for a plastic Thunderhawk is going to be the whales that impulsively buy five, or ten, and then never open any besides a single one, that they're probably never going to paint, either.

I think a large portion of the whales have already bought the resin Thunderhawk.

And they will go onto buy the plastic one as well.

Many probably will, but I think it takes more than selling to the people who already have one (minus the "new hat") to justify GW going to the effort of making it.

Maybe I massively underestimate the popularity, but it's going to take more than a few people on a forum saying they'll buy 1 or 2 or 3 to convince me the market is there. Personally I like the idea of a Thunderhawk, I have the money to buy one if I want it, but will I actually buy one? No, thanks, or at least probably not. Perhaps if I move to a different house with more display space and have a free month on my hands to build and paint it, then I might.

Large kits aren't anything new, but as popular as 40k is I don't think it's as popular as other markets that make big kits worthwhile

 blood reaper wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Frankly, the most realistic and biggest audience for a plastic Thunderhawk is going to be the whales that impulsively buy five, or ten, and then never open any besides a single one, that they're probably never going to paint, either.

There's something pretty depressing when you go onto sites like reddit and people are getting hundreds of upvotes simply for their latest purchase - and you look into their account history and its nothing but boxes, no painted or assembled figures. Just people addicted to buying junk.
.

it may be they simply don't feel comfidant showing off their assembled and painted stuff