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Technical 30k has a Launch Box, big box with many Models and a big Hardcover rulebook, have fun. A nice set with good content but not very useful for hobby newbies.

There is no Intro Set for completely new Players with a Mini Rulebook, Intro Booklet ect. to a smaller price tag which takes newbies at the hand.

I'm not sure GW is aiming at that market with HH though

Yeah, you would think that a starter box would be a no brainer. But if I recall with Indomitus and Dominion the smaller starter sets were released very soon after the limited release box. I guess the thing is with AOD not being a limited box maybe they see no reason to release a smaller, more new player friendly set?

Which is a shame given that most of the prices of the new releases have been quite good when compared to most 40k and AOS releases.

If 30K is following the open-narrative-matched format then a revised starter set should be in the works and this side of Christmas. Probably about £110.

Otherwise I can't see how 30K is going to be successful outside of the dedicated tournament audience.

When HH was made with focus for a tournament audience, I guess we would have a similary streamlined ruleset like 40k.

Maybe we will see a Starter Set with the NOVA previews, but I doubt we can await any one later that at this date or for Christmas announced.

What do we reckon for the starter sets? 40k/AoS style tiered system or Start Collecting!/Combat Patrol style? Or both?


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RazorEdge wrote:
When HH was made with focus for a tournament audience

When was Heresy ever tournament focused? I don't think it's ever been billed as a competitive rule-set.

Same here, I'm sure it's made as a form of a "Gentleman's Game" for retro/traditional gamers.

I guess there will be not a tiered system. Maybe like KIllTeam - one Starter with two small Armies,small Rulebook, Intro booklet. Maybe 20 Mk6 Marines, 5 Terminators (Tartaros?), 1 Dreadnought and 2 Characters. Like the AoD Box it can be used for two players or for a single Player as one small Army. There could be a Scenario in the Intro Booklet were two such Starters get combined.

 Dysartes wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Duymon wrote:
It's almost as if the big influx of Hh players has somehting to do with mainstream support from gw with updated plastic and not having to deal with forgeworld hard to get resin kits and rulebooks /s

Assuming the flag by your name is correct, you're in the USA, so riddle me this - how, exactly, is placing an online order from FW trickier (or more of a roadblock) than placing one from any other online seller?

FW comes with a bigger price tag.

Some people don't buy from "any other online seller", they buy from their FLGS or a specific online seller that they trust/like.

FW stuff often comes with flaws that warrant the part being replaced.

Lots of people prefer plastic to resin.

Even in the US I've heard reports of FW occasionally taking a long time deliver (there was a thread on it recently and I recall several Muricans complaining their orders were taking weeks to months to be shipped).

Some people don't like the proportions of the old Space Marine models and want something that will match the aesthetic of the Age of Darkness box they just bought.

The person I was replying to - notably, not you -

Yeah, this is a public forum, when you reply to someone you're replying to everyone, so I'm not sure why you think that's "notable".

None of the points you raised directly addressed the question I was asking - what makes ordering from FW so much harder than ordering from anywhere else online. You've got a couple of points that may highlight potential customer service issues (potential flaws (not exclusive to FW), and occasional delayed shipping), but they don't make it any harder to order the items.

The person you were quoting didn't say "hard to order", they said "not having to deal with forgeworld hard to get resin kits". My points that specifically addressed your point in the context of the original post were...

Some people don't buy from "any other online seller", they buy from their FLGS or a specific online seller that they trust/like.

FW stuff often comes with flaws that warrant the part being replaced.

Even in the US I've heard reports of FW occasionally taking a long time deliver (there was a thread on it recently and I recall several Muricans complaining their orders were taking weeks to months to be shipped).

So we have 1) Lack of availability from regular retailers, 2) Flaws that may require them to send out another part before you get the part you're actually going to use making it harder to get that part and 3) Shipping delays. I could add another one there that FW stuff is often out of stock (if I had a penny for the number of times I've wanted to buy a bundle to avoid paying for shipping, had to wait for one thing to come back into stock, then the thing I was going to bundle it with went out of stock... I'd have a few pennies ).

Unless you were simply attempting to move the goal posts by translating "hard to get" into "hard to order". In which case, ummm, okay? Yes, I fully agree that the process of "add to cart" and "checkout" is similar to other online stores.

The other points I just threw in there, cos, ya know, getting a bit tired of hearing "Instead of wanting plastic kits you should just buy FW like I've been doing for the past 10 years!". As If FW wasn't the reason they didn't get in to HH before So I was just heading off other avenues of discussion before they reared up once again.

My point on this is quite simple - people go on about how FW is such a barrier to buying something, yet it is no different than anything else you have to order online. I'm not going to start complaining about how "hard" it is if I need to order a book from Amazon, or Direct Only kits from GW, or paints from Warcolours, or brushes from Rosemary & Co - online shopping is part and parcel (heh) of the world today, and has been for, what, at least a decade now. Yet when it is FW, people choose to act like it is a gigantic barrier to entry.

When you add in the poor quality control, long shipping times, the fact you can't just buy it from any store... it is more of a barrier.

I rarely buy GW direct only kits for the express reason I can't buy them from local stores that I like to support, when I do buy them it's usually when I can get them from somewhere that isn't the GW webstore. I buy my warcolours from my FLGS. I buy my Kolinsky brushes from my FLGS. I don't buy my books from Amazon. Admittedly I do tend to buy preorders online, but that's more because I don't know when I'll have free time to visit the store so better if it just shows up at my door than have it sitting at the FLGS waiting to be collected.

When a company makes their products exclusive to their own website.... charges an arm and a leg for it... takes weeks to months to deliver it... frequently delivers crap quality that needs to be replaced.... then yeah, I'm probably not going to be buying many products from that manufacturer regardless of whether or not it's name is "Forge World".

 Snrub wrote:
What do we reckon for the starter sets? 40k/AoS style tiered system or Start Collecting!/Combat Patrol style? Or both?


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RazorEdge wrote:
When HH was made with focus for a tournament audience

When was Heresy ever tournament focused? I don't think it's ever been billed as a competitive rule-set.

I can only assume he's got this absurd idea that the only people willing to dump money on an army are the die hard tourny try hards.

RazorEdge wrote:
When HH was made with focus for a tournament audience, I guess we would have a similary streamlined ruleset like 40k.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
What do we reckon for the starter sets? 40k/AoS style tiered system or Start Collecting!/Combat Patrol style? Or both?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RazorEdge wrote:
When HH was made with focus for a tournament audience

When was Heresy ever tournament focused? I don't think it's ever been billed as a competitive rule-set.

I can only assume he's got this absurd idea that the only people willing to dump money on an army are the die hard tourny try hards.

It's just a grammar mistake, he means 'if'.

JWBS wrote:
It's just a grammar mistake, he means 'if'.

Ooh. That, when combined with the post directly above his, makes a lot more sense.

Right, confusion cleared.

beast_gts wrote:
Has anyone thought about using the upcoming Kill Team / Space Hulk walls for Zone Mortalis?

Spoiler:

At first glance there's not much of it, and there's a few too many doors...

Yeah might be a bit of a problem, as Zone Mortalis areas are supposed to be accessible to things like dreadnoughts and the like. Those doors basically cut off access.

I think the Necromunda terrain is probably better for it, less doors, etc. so you can make areas large enough for bigger models to fit through. Also GW has done so many different bundles for that stuff over the years that you can amass a fairly large collection of it at a reasonable price.

Racerguy180 wrote:
Titanicus didn't get a "starter box" until 18mo after the game came out....
I fething hope it doesn't take that long for AOD.

Huh? It had a starter box from day 1 - the Grand Master Edition that the game launched with.

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
I’ll be honest, I was kind of surprised that the rule book doesn’t contain Zone Mortalis rules. It also assumes the smallest game you’re going to play is 2000pts.
I’d love to see a low point cost Combat Patrol or Kill Team size game actively supported for this setting.

HH is designed and balanced around higher points levels. Thats just how it is. Too many people assume that points values scale infinitely - but they don't. They really only work within a narrow range of values - above or below that range they cease to be effective as a balancing mechanism. For 40k, the game plays best from 1000-2000 pts. For 30k its really more like 2500-3500.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
And that's different to gw/flgs online store being constantly out of stock...how?

Things come back into stock with GW/FLGS. FW stays out of stock for longer periods, returning to stock at random and without warning, and then selling out almost instantly.

Just ask the AT crowd what it's like.

Exactly this - there are several FW-resin-only AT items I have literally *never* seen in stock.

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm not sure GW is aiming at that market with HH though

HH is aimed at 40+. Noobs continue to play AoS & 40K.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
I’ll be honest, I was kind of surprised that the rule book doesn’t contain Zone Mortalis rules. It also assumes the smallest game you’re going to play is 2000pts.
I’d love to see a low point cost Combat Patrol or Kill Team size game actively supported for this setting.

HH is designed and balanced around higher points levels. Thats just how it is. Too many people assume that points values scale infinitely - but they don't. They really only work within a narrow range of values - above or below that range they cease to be effective as a balancing mechanism. For 40k, the game plays best from 1000-2000 pts. For 30k its really more like 2500-3500.

Yeah, I get that. That’s why I suppose I’m wish listing for a different game. I’m more of a collector/painter but I’ve no desire to collect 3000pts of anything or play a game that size. I’ve always thought 40K was too big and Kill Team too small. That’s why I don’t really play anything.

… my first world problem


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 Strg Alt wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm not sure GW is aiming at that market with HH though

HH is aimed at 40+. Noobs continue to play AoS & 40K.

And that’s exactly the kind of attitude that always put me off the HH community.

SamusDrake wrote:
If 30K is following the open-narrative-matched format then a revised starter set should be in the works and this side of Christmas. Probably about £110.

Otherwise I can't see how 30K is going to be successful outside of the dedicated tournament audience.

It doesn't follow the 40k/AoS game design. There isn't "ways to play" its just the one way. The way the game scales also means it doesn't work at very small point levels. The AoS/40k starter sets are roughly one unit + an HQ/hero, a formula which doesn't work with the HH system. The smallest level of workable game is about 1k points unless you go for the old Victory is Vengeance rules from Extermination but that's basically HH Kill Team.
As for not succeeding outside of tournaments, the vast majority of HH events are narrative focused and organisers often make it very clear that if lists are considered overly competitive (i.e. bringing large amounts of broken or cheesy units or combos) then players will be asked to change their lists. If HH managed to do well without resorting to appeasing the competitive crowd for the last 10 years I think it can manage now.

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Yeah, I get that. That’s why I suppose I’m wish listing for a different game. I’m more of a collector/painter but I’ve no desire to collect 3000pts of anything or play a game that size. I’ve always thought 40K was too big and Kill Team too small. That’s why I don’t really play anything.

… my first world problem

I grew up playing 2nd edition, most games were a few squads and maybe 1 or 2 tanks/dreadnoughts/etc.

I liked that size for 40k, could get an army together reasonably quickly and when you have games where you move individual models it becomes so tedious when you have more than a handful of squads.

Years ago I built a Tyranid horde army for the cool spectacle of it... the first movement phase of the first game I thought "what have I done, this is not fun"

GW killed the games where large numbers of models made for fun games (at least to me), things like Epic, Warmaster, and yes even WHFB.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:

And that’s exactly the kind of attitude that always put me off the HH community.

 Gert wrote:
As for not succeeding outside of tournaments, the vast majority of HH events are narrative focused and organisers often make it very clear that if lists are considered overly competitive (i.e. bringing large amounts of broken or cheesy units or combos) then players will be asked to change their lists. If HH managed to do well without resorting to appeasing the competitive crowd for the last 10 years I think it can manage now.

If GW are putting so many HH models into plastic, they clearly want to sell it to more than the existing crowd of resin whales.

As it gains more mainstream popularity, the culture will change, the existing playerbase will be overwhelmed by the newbies some of whom will want to play narrative, some will want to play armies that don't fit in the fluff, some will want to play competitively, etc etc.

And I shan't shed a tear for the cranky old grognards (ya know, the ones crying about how they've been buying resin marines with dwarfism for the past 10 years and that is the correct way to enjoy HH).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Yeah, I get that. That’s why I suppose I’m wish listing for a different game. I’m more of a collector/painter but I’ve no desire to collect 3000pts of anything or play a game that size. I’ve always thought 40K was too big and Kill Team too small. That’s why I don’t really play anything.

… my first world problem

I grew up playing 2nd edition, most games were a few squads and maybe 1 or 2 tanks/dreadnoughts/etc.

I liked that size for 40k, could get an army together reasonably quickly and when you have games where you move individual models it becomes so tedious when you have more than a handful of squads.

Years ago I built a Tyranid horde army for the cool spectacle of it... the first movement phase of the first game I thought "what have I done, this is not fun"

GW killed the games where large numbers of models made for fun games (at least to me), things like Epic, Warmaster, and yes even WHFB.

I agree. Older editions of 40k and WHFB were great because the game size fell into this weird middle ground between a skirmish game and "mass battle" like we have in modern 40k. You'd have an HQ character, 2-3 small units of line infantry type troops, a unit or two of specialists (like bikers or heavy weapons teams), and a tank (or in WHFB terms - a Hero, 2-3 units of infantry, 1-2 units of cavalry, and like a dragon or a cannon), and that was just a solid really fun game size.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
If GW are putting so many HH models into plastic, they clearly want to sell it to more than the existing crowd of resin whales.

As it gains more mainstream popularity, the culture will change, the existing playerbase will be overwhelmed by the newbies some of whom will want to play narrative, some will want to play armies that don't fit in the fluff, some will want to play competitively, etc etc.

I'm not denying that won't be the case, there will for sure be a lot of new people coming along. That being said, a shift in the culture of the wider community is going to be less drastic IMO.
Ignoring the chuds discussed below for a moment, there is still a huge focus on narrative and authenticity when it comes to HH armies which influences the kind of events that are popular in the community. As well as this, one of the major draws to HH (both in the original version and now) is the higher degree of balance between the various armies (barring a few exceptions *cough*Custodes*cough*). Generally speaking, the game is a lot more forgiving of TAC lists, as well as themed armies with Rites of War. The consistency of the rules (i.e. not a rapid replacement of Codexes or supplementary material) means that while a specific issue might stick around for a while, the players don't have to fork out £30 every 6 months for new rules to play the game.
Obviously there will be a competitive driven section of the HH community growing, I just don't think it will ever come to eclipse the narrative section.

And I shan't shed a tear for the cranky old grognards (ya know, the ones crying about how they've been buying resin marines with dwarfism for the past 10 years and that is the correct way to enjoy HH).

Nah those chuds can get in the bin. I can't stand the modeling elitism from a fair chunk of the HH crowd who in the same breath will use de-Nurgled Plague Marines for true scale or will buy recasts. One person especially has some exceptional hobby talent but is a massive gak head towards new people just asking questions about what would be acceptable to use for certain units. My favourite example was this individual doing a massive rant on how no Primaris models should ever be used for HH units, then a day later is posting about their converted Outriders using the Primaris bikers. It's truly pathetic the amount of vitriol these kinds of people spout while being massive hypocrites.

 Gert wrote:

It doesn't follow the 40k/AoS game design. There isn't "ways to play" its just the one way. The way the game scales also means it doesn't work at very small point levels. The AoS/40k starter sets are roughly one unit + an HQ/hero, a formula which doesn't work with the HH system. The smallest level of workable game is about 1k points unless you go for the old Victory is Vengeance rules from Extermination but that's basically HH Kill Team.
As for not succeeding outside of tournaments, the vast majority of HH events are narrative focused and organisers often make it very clear that if lists are considered overly competitive (i.e. bringing large amounts of broken or cheesy units or combos) then players will be asked to change their lists. If HH managed to do well without resorting to appeasing the competitive crowd for the last 10 years I think it can manage now.

Ah, so 30K is a very different beast then.

Having watched Ash's review of the Mechanicum book, I notice the Armigers are 200 points each, 50 more than their 40K counterparts. Is just just a rarity or a rule of thumb for 30K in that the units are more expensive?

Generally speaking, HH units are cheaper than their 40k counterparts.

SamusDrake wrote:
Ah, so 30K is a very different beast then.

Having watched Ash's review of the Mechanicum book, I notice the Armigers are 200 points each, 50 more than their 40K counterparts. Is just just a rarity or a rule of thumb for 30K in that the units are more expensive?

I think in 30k vehicles are more expensive than in 40k right now and basic marines are less.

Cheers for that Gert and ph34r.

SamusDrake wrote:
Cheers for that Gert and ph34r.

one exception however being dreads which are, i thnk it's fair to say, underpriced pts wise.

but that is honestly my only gripe about the books.

Found this on Reddit after it was mentioned at Valraks last Stream on Youtube:

Hey Folks,

someone posted this on the 30k sub before he removed it by himself.


Mk6 Assault Marines with Bolt Pistol and Chainsword options - 5 man sprue will accomplished by the expansion sprue from the Tactical Squad Set.

Mk5/6 Expansion Set with close combat weapons - two identical sprues with two variants of each close combat weapon

Mk5/6 Expansion Set for Breacher Squads

Mk5/6 Expansion Set for Destroyer Squads - can be combined with tactical or assault squad sprue for Breacher with or without Jump packs

Deimos Pattern Vindicator - Standard and Laser Destroyer variants get accomplished with a new Tank Destroyer Variant (weapon looks like a new Melter variant)

Expansion Sets for two Sicaran Assaul Tank / Tank Destroyer Variants

New Dreadnough Variant is wip - Maybe Furibundus Variant - "from the same time period as the Mk2 were introduced" (earliest pattern of "mass produced" Dreadnoughts?)

Mk2 and Mk5 Tactical Squad are both wip - there will be also a seperate

Mk2 Expansion Set for Close Combat Weapons Both Sets are planned for army sets as "Launch" releases in the future.

Two new plastic Preatorii are planned - each with Mk2 and Mk5 armour As said earlier - there will be a yearly Army Box set with new stuff First of such sets will replace the AoD Box next year

what do you think? Are those rumours believable?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer30k/comments/wwu25r/horus_heresy_rumours/

Maybe some of this will be revealed at NOVA, but take some salt.

That sounds more like wishlisting and guessing than leaks

Maybe the expansion sprues for Mk6? But I doubt they would suddenly swap to Mk5??

Not even quality wishlisting.

"You'll get everything you want, and soon!"

Yeah. That does sound very wishlist-y.