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 Darnok wrote:
On the plus side though, the last sentence of the article: "There’ll also be plenty more to see from the Age of Darkness, as the threat of corrupted Daemon Engines looms over a new entry in the Exemplary Battles series." Does not sound like a full Ruinstorm list to me, but it is something.

We always have to be careful when we complain to GW about the mistakes they make, as they're likely to learn the wrong lessons.

When they turned a bunch of 40k things that had been part of 40k even before the Horus Heresy was ever a separate FW-produced game and made them into "Horus Heresy Legends", we complained and told them that turning things that did not exist during the Heresy (like Daemon Engines) into "Horus Heresy Legends" units was not only stupid, but took away so many units that, as mentioned, were simply part of 40k since their introduction to the rules (they were never Horus Heresy units).

And so, GW has taken that feedback on board and, I'm guessing, will now retcon these units into the Horus Heresy, making their previous change to their rules totally legitimate (after the fact).

Cool...

Some new dark mechanicus gribbleys would be pretty fun to see. Representing the wild experimenting the tech nerds are doing when given full reign for the first time.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Darnok wrote:
On the plus side though, the last sentence of the article: "There’ll also be plenty more to see from the Age of Darkness, as the threat of corrupted Daemon Engines looms over a new entry in the Exemplary Battles series." Does not sound like a full Ruinstorm list to me, but it is something.

We always have to be careful when we complain to GW about the mistakes they make, as they're likely to learn the wrong lessons.

When they turned a bunch of 40k things that had been part of 40k even before the Horus Heresy was ever a separate FW-produced game and made them into "Horus Heresy Legends", we complained and told them that turning things that did not exist during the Heresy (like Daemon Engines) into "Horus Heresy Legends" units was not only stupid, but took away so many units that, as mentioned, were simply part of 40k since their introduction to the rules (they were never Horus Heresy units).

And so, GW has taken that feedback on board and, I'm guessing, will now retcon these units into the Horus Heresy, making their previous change to their rules totally legitimate (after the fact).

Cool...

Ehhhh....though I fully share your anger at gw taking units that have always been 40k units and branding them as "HH units", I have to point out that we were told that we'd be getting Daemon engines for 30k long before even the announcement for 10th edition 40k. I think it was in the article that gave us the rules for Daemons of the Ruinstorm allies? Could be mistaken, though. So, this feels like less of a reaction to community feedback, and more like something already planned.

The problem is we have precisce dates on a lot of those Daemonengines.

Decimator M35.
Bloodslaughterer M40ish.

Neither are 30k material.

And whilest i can kinda see a distcint relativness with the decimator and some of the FW bots for admech and therefore could live with a prototype being around in the 30k era or better scouring era.. the bloodslaughterer and other things that got put in that document are basically just a cheap copout for GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Ehhhh....though I fully share your anger at gw taking units that have always been 40k units and branding them as "HH units", I have to point out that we were told that we'd be getting Daemon engines for 30k long before even the announcement for 10th edition 40k. I think it was in the article that gave us the rules for Daemons of the Ruinstorm allies? Could be mistaken, though. So, this feels like less of a reaction to community feedback, and more like something already planned.

or they wanted to push daemonengines into 30k without using development time and test the waters not realising that in a "quasi historical" the timeframe would matter to people.

from a fluff point, Daemon Engines and Dark Mechanicum are there since the Mechanicus book early on, so not a problem finally having them in the game

that GW takes the "cheap" path of removing the special ones from 40k to put them into HH instead of doing a new model line is bad for both games

and it raised the fear that they might do this with other models as well they want to remove from 40k

Well….what is a Daemon Engine, at its core?

Essentially, a vehicle possessed by or which has had a Daemon bound unto it. Usually (but I don’t think always?) in place of the Machine Spirit.

Yes there are specific patterns which appear to have no mortal antecedent designs. But a Predator having a Daemon piped in and sealed up is as much a Daemon Engine as one with a purpose designed hull.

 Darnok wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Literally getting a praetor they already have in a different pose before Iron Warriors, World Eaters, Salamanders, Raven Guard and probably more I’m forgetting have any legion specific praetors.

Yeah this is really disappointing. It adds literally nothing but a new pose, and not even an interesting one:

Spoiler:

Old:


New:

A completely necessary release, deserving of all our attention! /s

Well, but this way you can just rejigger the file you have, pose it a bit and boom, done!

I guess what GW could do, is to provide rules for a variety of Daemon Engines with somewhat generic lore attached to each, then have a list of "you could use use a Blood Slaughterer for X, or convert Y from a Defiler". Plus an article showing some conversions from studio members and all that jazz.

I have serious doubts it will go like this - it is way too sensible approach for current day GW.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well….what is a Daemon Engine, at its core?

Essentially, a vehicle possessed by or which has had a Daemon bound unto it. Usually (but I don’t think always?) in place of the Machine Spirit.

Yes there are specific patterns which appear to have no mortal antecedent designs. But a Predator having a Daemon piped in and sealed up is as much a Daemon Engine as one with a purpose designed hull.

Yes, but not really? Usually a daemon engine is either a superheavy or a vehicle made specifically to host a daemon. Otherwise it would usually just be defined as a possessed vehicle.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well….what is a Daemon Engine, at its core?

Essentially, a vehicle possessed by or which has had a Daemon bound unto it. Usually (but I don’t think always?) in place of the Machine Spirit.

Yes there are specific patterns which appear to have no mortal antecedent designs. But a Predator having a Daemon piped in and sealed up is as much a Daemon Engine as one with a purpose designed hull.

Yes, but not really? Usually a daemon engine is either a superheavy or a vehicle made specifically to host a daemon. Otherwise it would usually just be defined as a possessed vehicle.

You just said the same thing two ways, the difference is one happens naturally the other is by intent. Whichever HH book it is that covers the fighting in the webway definitely mentions daemon engines and I seem to think they were described as scuttling?

 Darnok wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Literally getting a praetor they already have in a different pose before Iron Warriors, World Eaters, Salamanders, Raven Guard and probably more I’m forgetting have any legion specific praetors.

Yeah this is really disappointing. It adds literally nothing but a new pose, and not even an interesting one:

Spoiler:

Old:


New:

A completely necessary release, deserving of all our attention! /s

I like the new pose much better.

Of course we are talking about the same people that figured plastic close combat Marines were unnecessary, so why would we expect GW to release something for everyone instead of doubling up on some things and leaving others to wait? We know they don't have their priorities straight.

Hope the Champion is actually up for preorder as I've been looking forward to that model.

Not Online!!! wrote:
The problem is we have precisce dates on a lot of those Daemonengines.

Decimator M35.
Bloodslaughterer M40ish.

Neither are 30k material.

I said something similar in the LI thread - the Marauder Destroyer is specifically a post-HH variant (Second War for Armageddon) but is getting LI rules (and has 30k Legacies rules).

Definitely looks like a re-size. Here's my very rough approximation. I suspect that the current IF Praetor will be going away once this is released

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well….what is a Daemon Engine, at its core?

Essentially, a vehicle possessed by or which has had a Daemon bound unto it. Usually (but I don’t think always?) in place of the Machine Spirit.

Yes there are specific patterns which appear to have no mortal antecedent designs. But a Predator having a Daemon piped in and sealed up is as much a Daemon Engine as one with a purpose designed hull.

We are not talking about the possessed tanks.

We are talking about the bloody m35 earliest sighting daemonengine which got legended and then shoved over here, not even going into scorpion, slaughterers etc.

It is abuse of lore coherency for sake of sales.

I wish they’d kept the old pose if that’s the case, the new one is boring and the legs are too wide.

beast_gts wrote:


I said something similar in the LI thread - the Marauder Destroyer is specifically a post-HH variant (Second War for Armageddon) but is getting LI rules (and has 30k Legacies rules).

it's annoying and sets a bad precedent. It also shows a severe lack of respect for the lore, out of which the coherency of the universe follows which is the main selling point of 40k.

Not Online!!! wrote:
It also shows a severe lack of lore which is the main selling point of 40k.

That got thrown out when primaris marines became a thing. Lore, just like anything else, will be changed at will to suit the needs of the marketing department.

Dark Mechanicum was always planned along with corrupted machines/AI. It could be that we're getting some sort of VDR but for Dæmon Engines.

Again, there is nothing wrong with dark mech and daemonengines.

There is a lot wrong with forcing clearly not time accurate daemonengines into 30k.

Lexicanum says Blood Slaughterers existed during HH and are made on Sarum (where World Eater helmets also come from)

I guess they could do like they did with the Marauder Destroyer and similar 40k-era units where it isn't technically that exact unit, it's representing some obscure pattern of local vehicle thrown into the fight out of desperation. Lore-wise they aren't the same 40k-era demon engines, those models are just convenient representations of the 30k thing.

(It's still stupid that they were removed from 40k.)

Not Online!!! wrote:
There is a lot wrong with forcing clearly not time accurate daemonengines into 30k.

It's not clear when a lot of these came into being. Checking through IA13, there are scant dates and only refereneces to "largely encountered". Blight Drone is obviously a corrupted Vultarax, Defiler a corrupted Onager, Decimator a corrupted Leviathan, etc. Hellblades and the like are from Xana II and Blood Slaughterers and Brass Scorpions are from Sarum. Those Forgeworlds were present in the Heresy and reading through some of the novels, there's plenty of references to scuttling biomechanical horrors. They may not be called Defiler, Blood Slaughter, but it could be that the Dark Mechanicum lists in future could make references to a corrupted dreadnought, corrupted Vultarax, etc instead of the 40k names, similar to how the Ruinstorm lists refer to Dæmon Brutes, etc instead of their pantheon names.

Personally looking forward to Dark Mechanicum, not necessarily to collect, but to see an older style biomechanical horror Chaos army.

I personally don’t think slightly changing a nebulous date when something was first encountered is particularly lore breaking.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I personally don’t think slightly changing a nebulous date when something was first encountered is particularly lore breaking.

So you're ok with primaris marines (actual primaris marines, not primaris kits being used to represent 30k-era marines) in 30k?

 zedmeister wrote:

It's not clear when a lot of these came into being. Checking through IA13, there are scant dates and only refereneces to "largely encountered".

Yeah the fluff explicitly leaves the door open for these dates to be somewhat fuzzy. Taken from the last CSM codex:

Still other Daemon Engines are the possessed husks of former tanks, the growl of their engines now that of a living beast. These and innumerable other creations have been reported first-hand to the Imperium, while many more have left no survivors to scream of their hideous nature...

Just because a given engine was first idenfitied or given a name at a specific place, it doesn't mean that was the first time it was used. It was just the first time usable details of the encounter made it off-world to be recorded somewhere others can access.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I personally don’t think slightly changing a nebulous date when something was first encountered is particularly lore breaking.

So you're ok with primaris marines (actual primaris marines, not primaris kits being used to represent 30k-era marines) in 30k?

No, that’s probably a fair point. But Primaris marines have much much more concrete lore about their inception and introduction than the daemon engines do, and the heresy saw a big boom in experimentation with daemon stuff for obvious reasons, so it’s logical for a lot of daemon engines to date from there.

Fixed dates and Warp Daemons are only vaguely related. Remember the Ork Waaagh that went back in time thanks to the warp so the Warboss killed himself for a second copy of his shoota?

Plus Imperial records are canonically a mess.

 zedmeister wrote:
Definitely looks like a re-size. Here's my very rough approximation. I suspect that the current IF Praetor will be going away once this is released

The current IF Praetor may be huge, but the pose is many times better than the new one.

It looks like the sculptor was told to re-size it and re-pose it, then put in the minimum required effort.

I wonder why now though? It's been out for a while hasn't it?

I feel like it was a case of someone making a couple variants, having one approved, then later it was decided the other variant was good as well, so release it.