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 zedmeister wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
There is a lot wrong with forcing clearly not time accurate daemonengines into 30k.

It's not clear when a lot of these came into being. Checking through IA13, there are scant dates and only refereneces to "largely encountered". Blight Drone is obviously a corrupted Vultarax, Defiler a corrupted Onager, Decimator a corrupted Leviathan, etc. Hellblades and the like are from Xana II and Blood Slaughterers and Brass Scorpions are from Sarum. Those Forgeworlds were present in the Heresy and reading through some of the novels, there's plenty of references to scuttling biomechanical horrors. They may not be called Defiler, Blood Slaughter, but it could be that the Dark Mechanicum lists in future could make references to a corrupted dreadnought, corrupted Vultarax, etc instead of the 40k names, similar to how the Ruinstorm lists refer to Dæmon Brutes, etc instead of their pantheon names.

Personally looking forward to Dark Mechanicum, not necessarily to collect, but to see an older style biomechanical horror Chaos army.

Again NOTHING WRONG with Dark mech, or the decimator style daemon engines.

everything wrong with mistaking m35 and m40 majority sightings with:" Jup that's fine in 30k"

Because the later is lazy.

Now if' they bring out decimator type protypes, show a cohesive and understandable design progression. An mechanical evolution of design and innovation and give us the corresponding kits, that is awesome.
Shoving the decimator and the slaughterer just back into 30k is not. But then again what a better way to obsolete vast swaaths of armies in 40k to resell units to.

Well, the current Imperial Fists praetor is now Sold Out, so definitely a replacement:

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/imperial-fists-legion-terminator-praetor-2021

Phew, looks like I was just in time!

Hope my order comes through

 zedmeister wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
There is a lot wrong with forcing clearly not time accurate daemonengines into 30k.

It's not clear when a lot of these came into being. Checking through IA13, there are scant dates and only refereneces to "largely encountered". Blight Drone is obviously a corrupted Vultarax, Defiler a corrupted Onager, Decimator a corrupted Leviathan, etc. Hellblades and the like are from Xana II and Blood Slaughterers and Brass Scorpions are from Sarum. Those Forgeworlds were present in the Heresy and reading through some of the novels, there's plenty of references to scuttling biomechanical horrors. They may not be called Defiler, Blood Slaughter, but it could be that the Dark Mechanicum lists in future could make references to a corrupted dreadnought, corrupted Vultarax, etc instead of the 40k names, similar to how the Ruinstorm lists refer to Dæmon Brutes, etc instead of their pantheon names.

Personally looking forward to Dark Mechanicum, not necessarily to collect, but to see an older style biomechanical horror Chaos army.

See, I could believe this if it wasn't for the fact that some of these came first. The Defiler is nearly 2 decades older than the Onager, the the Decimator is from 2012 while the leviathan is from 2015. Not to mention neither of those look like each other and we have a specific date for the defiler, the beginning of the first black crusade, which began roughly in 781.m31, meaning *after* the heresy.

Yes they can shoehorn these things into heresy, but not only would that be a direct retcon (and before anyone gets onto me about "the whole heresy is a retcon!" yes, but there's a difference between retconning something loosely established with little concrete info, especially if they retain the basics, and directly retconning something we have relatively precise info on), it would also be a shame to see the work of old FW specifically thrown away for this weird all-encompassing entity the Heresy has become.

It would be better for basically everyone, even GW (after all, it's a whole lot easier to generate hype with a new thing) for them to create whole-new daemon-engines for the Dark mechanicum than to retro-actively retcon old ones into it.,

The Defiler was ordered by Abaddon to fill the ranks of the Black Legion because a big crab is a better siege engine than a tank.
Abaddon of course understands that crabs are the ultimate lifeform.

With regards to what will actually be added for Daemon Engines, folks need to chillax. Chances are its going to be like Militia and Daemon units where its given a name but not an explicit model.

While things like Decimators and Bloodslaughterers may have dates when they first entered common parlance, is this really an issue? By the time the Siege rolled around the traitors were basically CSM in terms of visuals; I don't think there's any issues with having a dreadnaughts but-a-bit-more-chaos, or crawling murder machines with harpoons.

 morganfreeman wrote:
While things like Decimators and Bloodslaughterers may have dates when they first entered common parlance, is this really an issue? By the time the Siege rolled around the traitors were basically CSM in terms of visuals; I don't think there's any issues with having a dreadnaughts but-a-bit-more-chaos, or crawling murder machines with harpoons.

Apparently? Heresy communities have a reputation for being sometimes passive, sometimes less so, aggressive over historical accuracy of forces etc.

I am hoping against all hope that its full ruinstorm rules but I will probably be disappointed again.

Holding out for my beloved ruinstorm!

GW rewrites fluff in bigger terms as is anyway.

Lion is sleeping in hidded place. Sorry he's actually been around long time killing chaos. Nobody just ever saw him.

It's not like we have games set up in 34m, 35m, 36m. Whether it became introduced during HH or in 40k doesn't have impact.

Alternative of course is models be useless completely then.

Dudeface wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
While things like Decimators and Bloodslaughterers may have dates when they first entered common parlance, is this really an issue? By the time the Siege rolled around the traitors were basically CSM in terms of visuals; I don't think there's any issues with having a dreadnaughts but-a-bit-more-chaos, or crawling murder machines with harpoons.

Apparently? Heresy communities have a reputation for being sometimes passive, sometimes less so, aggressive over historical accuracy of forces etc.

quasi-historical.
40k would also be better off if the community were more like this, would've spared us atleast 20 Primaris leutnants.

Dudeface wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
While things like Decimators and Bloodslaughterers may have dates when they first entered common parlance, is this really an issue? By the time the Siege rolled around the traitors were basically CSM in terms of visuals; I don't think there's any issues with having a dreadnaughts but-a-bit-more-chaos, or crawling murder machines with harpoons.

Apparently? Heresy communities have a reputation for being sometimes passive, sometimes less so, aggressive over historical accuracy of forces etc.

I hope none of those folks bought one of those shiny Vindicators that just got transitioned to plastic. Their heads might implode if they ever find out that once upon a time the Vindicator STC was only rediscovered a couple of decades after the Heresy.

 Geifer wrote:

I hope none of those folks bought one of those shiny Vindicators that just got transitioned to plastic. Their heads might implode if they ever find out that once upon a time the Vindicator STC was only rediscovered a couple of decades after the Heresy.

Which can still hold true for the 40k pattern as the 30k one is different.

Dudeface wrote:
Apparently? Heresy communities have a reputation for being sometimes passive, sometimes less so, aggressive over historical accuracy of forces etc.

But it's not just the HH community. It's had a direct rules-impact on 40k as well.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Apparently? Heresy communities have a reputation for being sometimes passive, sometimes less so, aggressive over historical accuracy of forces etc.

But it's not just the HH community. It's had a direct rules-impact on 40k as well.

Yeah but the complaint isn't just as simple as they were turned into 40k legends, correctly given this is the 30k thread. The argument is people are saying they shouldn't exist in Heresy irrespective, which I'm not sure is objectively true.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

I hope none of those folks bought one of those shiny Vindicators that just got transitioned to plastic. Their heads might implode if they ever find out that once upon a time the Vindicator STC was only rediscovered a couple of decades after the Heresy.

Which can still hold true for the 40k pattern as the 30k one is different.

The modern 40k one, sure. The one at the time, nope. The 30k one is just the high definition version of that.

 Geifer wrote:
The modern 40k one, sure. The one at the time, nope. The 30k one is just the high definition version of that.

Ha ha that's a good take on resculpting

PDF is up

Every day I become more convinced they want to have FW do only heresy and nothing else.

Lowest effort possible.
The decimator is now naught but a 30k unit. So is the bloodslaughterer.

FFS.

Also decimator, you know the daemonengine known for just standing back up, can't stand back up. But it has T7 and 7 wounds at WS 5 and 4/5 attacks... nooo that isn't just a more dangerous contemptor, NoPe. Not at all.

Basically:

If it's made out of resin It's a 30k Daemon Engine.

If it's made out of plastic: It's a 40k Daemon Engine.

Very disappointing. Was hoping for something with more customization and conversion potential.

Rules seem ok, at a first glance, at least. Sigh.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Basically:

If it's made out of resin It's a 30k Daemon Engine.

If it's made out of plastic: It's a 40k Daemon Engine.

Very disappointing. Was hoping for something with more customization and conversion potential.

Rules seem ok, at a first glance, at least. Sigh.

Ayup, first glance

Boooooooo.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Lowest effort possible.
The decimator is now naught but a 30k unit. So is the bloodslaughterer.

FFS.

Also decimator, you know the daemonengine known for just standing back up, can't stand back up. But it has T7 and 7 wounds at WS 5 and 4/5 attacks... nooo that isn't just a more dangerous contemptor, NoPe. Not at all.

It's also 265 points, so if one considers contemptors fair at 175, this thing should by all rights be much more dangerous than a contemptor. This thing is probably net overall less dangerous than a contemptor because more things can cause d3 wounds to it due to Corrupted Engine and less point efficiency.

I'm not seeing anything preventing you having a Greater Brass Scorpion in a Loyalist Death Guard army with a Praevian. (when they're part of a *mechanicum* force it has to be Traitor, no such restriction when taken with a Praevian)

Please tell me I'm wrong in this...

Charax wrote:
I'm not seeing anything preventing you having a Greater Brass Scorpion in a Loyalist Death Guard army with a Praevian. (when they're part of a *mechanicum* force it has to be Traitor, no such restriction when taken with a Praevian)

Please tell me I'm wrong in this...

The Brass Scorpion has the Traitor special rule.

Charax wrote:
I'm not seeing anything preventing you having a Greater Brass Scorpion in a Loyalist Death Guard army with a Praevian. (when they're part of a *mechanicum* force it has to be Traitor, no such restriction when taken with a Praevian)

Please tell me I'm wrong in this...

They are all Traitor tagged.

Traitor's a special rule?

Guess it's only Traitor Death Guard then

Yeah it's because every army besides Custodes/Sisters can be taken as either Loyalist or Traitor.
Units that are associated with a given side such as unique units or characters all have the special rule to stop things like Sigismund being taken in a Traitor list or Kharn in Loyalist one.

Regarding the whole debate on potential retconning, wasnt the Blood Slaughterer already present during the Heresy? I vaguely remember something like that mentioned in one of the old Imperial Armour books.

In the Garro Weapon of Fate novel, the story Oath of Moment has Garro fighting a Defiler.
It is described as such, and I think it was actually named a defiler.